Honestly, 5-10 bad spells out of 500+? 98% is a pretty good record, honestly. Don't see why the rant is necessary. if you really wanted to fix the "bad" spells, its honestly pretty easy:
most of them all you'd need to do is remove the concentration component. weird could be improved by doubling the range, increasing the damage, or changing the inflicted condition to something more akin to paralyzed or stunned. This stuff isn't hard, but honestly isn't necessary; there are a lot of other choices that are fine.
Now, compare the spell to Thunderwave, which has the same damage, of a better damage type (thunder resistance is less common than cold resistance), in a better shape (15' cube covers more volume than 15' cone), with a secondary effect.
No doubt Thunderwave is overall a slightly better pick for most people. But the difference between them is small and Frost Fingers has its niche with Draconic Sorcerers or anyone else that wants an ice-themed character for whatever reason. If Frost Fingers is awful then surely Thunderwave is awful too because they're almost the exact same spell.
Frost Fingers deals more damage at higher levels than burning hands. At 9th level it ends up 10d8 for frost fingers vs 11d6. This means, at 9th-level:
11d6 has higher minimum damage (11), an average of 33 fire damage, and a maximum of 66 fire damage.
10d8 has lower minimum damage (10), an average of 40 cold damage (7 more than burning hands), and a maximum of 80 cold damage, which shoots burning hands out of the water by 14 damage.
- That means that Frost Fingers is actually a better spell in the long run than Burning Hands, as it will end up dealing more damage at higher levels. For Frost Fingers, it's all about the upgrades.
Section 2:
Weird is not as weak as you think. It targets EVERYONE in a 30-foot radius sphere. That's a big sphere - enough to hold dozens of medium creatures. It also goes UP, too, so it hits creatures with flying.
The spell lasts for 1 minute (concentration, I know), but for the duration after a Wis save (which is generally rather low for most non-celestial-beast creatures, and at this level your DC is HIGH) creatures are FRIGHTENED of you (they can't really even attempt to properly attack you and they must RUN AWAY!!!), and they take 4d10 damage each turn. If you succeed on keeping this spell active for the duration, assuming the creature doesn't succeed on any saves, that's 120 psychic damage on average at the end of everything, with a high of 240 damage. And then that's dealt out to EVERY CREATURE WITHIN 30 FEET OF YOU. Assuming 10 creatures, and no-one succeeds on the save EVER (why should they? High DC, relatively uncommon ability score in non-celestials), that's a total of 2,400 damage at maximum.
Your puny Wish and Power Word Kill spells hold NOTHING to weird.
Section 3:
Mordenkainen's Sword is weak, but sometimes WotC makes spells that are more flavor and do nothing (who doesn't like a good, but useless, druidcraft)?
Section 4:
True strike has No Excuse... until you understand that there's a 1st-level spell that only grants advantage on something once (Fortune's Favor). Now does True Strike seem so bad? Take your ire out on Matthew Mercer, if you will. True Strike has become astoundingly powerful, compared to that whining wimp of a spell. But even then, Matthew Mercer knows better than any of us low-uncouth morons.
Section 5:
If you have a problem with "bad spells", just don't chose them.
If you get angry about them, talk with your DM. Homebrew something.
Sometimes, spells aren't about the Damage Per Round or the "OOoohieee, Big Summer Blowout". Sometimes they have flavor that is buried under slightly subpar DPR. Because it's not the explosion that counts - its the way you use it.
Do you use BRUTE FORCE FBI FBI FBI to destroy things in your way? "Ooh, a harmless civilian. SHOOT THEM." "Ooh, a harmless puppy dog. BLOW IT SKY HIGH." "Ooh, Tibalt from MtG. SEND THAT WRETCH TO HELL AND BACK, QUICK-STYLE." If so, you're either a meta-gamer or you aren't thinking or roleplaying. This type of game, dear reader, is known as Hack 'n Slash. You can find it near the guns in your local cereal store. You're the sort that NEEDS more OP spells because you're constantly trying to kill yourself.
You don't use brute force? You like talking to civilians? You like patting the puppies? You want to send Tibalt to hell anyway because he's evil scum? Well, you likely roleplay, and in that case low DPR doesn't matter, because you've either hatched a cunning ambush that will slay your quarry for you and your spell will just decimate their vulnerable carcasses, or you've been double-crossed by your good friend Arval Degas who secretly works for Tibalt and is ambushing your ambush. In which case, DPR doesn't matter, because you're dead anyway.
As I said above. If you are unhappy, 'brew an alternative, or just don't pick that spell. Simple as... well, simple as Frost Fingers.
PS. By the way, if Frost Fingers sucked for you, please avoid playing ANY of Icewind Dale: Rime of the Frostmaiden, as you're probably in the hyper-critical groups that will say everything in it is "bad" and say it's nothing like Curse of Strahd, and then pour acid on CoS because there's not enough horror for you. Nothing will ever be "good enough" for you. If you have problems with something, don't start a thread with the keywords "absolutely terrible" or contain the words "What is the business process that WotC is stuck with which forces them to not adequately review these spells and spells like them?". This implies everyone agrees with you. I don't, certainly. Maybe try create a "how to improve existing spells" thread next time, and you won't get the horror that is people disagreeing.
Yours,
- Tasha, author of the award-winning book, Tasha's Cauldron of Everything.
Frost Fingers deals more damage at higher levels than burning hands. At 9th level it ends up 10d8 for frost fingers vs 11d6. This means, at 9th-level:
11d6 has higher minimum damage (11), an average of 33 fire damage, and a maximum of 66 fire damage.
10d8 has lower minimum damage (10), an average of 40 cold damage (7 more than burning hands), and a maximum of 80 cold damage, which shoots burning hands out of the water by 14 damage.
- That means that Frost Fingers is actually a better spell in the long run than Burning Hands, as it will end up dealing more damage at higher levels. For Frost Fingers, it's all about the upgrades.
Section 2:
Weird is not as weak as you think. It targets EVERYONE in a 30-foot radius sphere. That's a big sphere - enough to hold dozens of medium creatures. It also goes UP, too, so it hits creatures with flying.
The spell lasts for 1 minute (concentration, I know), but for the duration after a Wis save (which is generally rather low for most non-celestial-beast creatures, and at this level your DC is HIGH) creatures are FRIGHTENED of you (they can't really even attempt to properly attack you and they must RUN AWAY!!!), and they take 4d10 damage each turn. If you succeed on keeping this spell active for the duration, assuming the creature doesn't succeed on any saves, that's 120 psychic damage on average at the end of everything, with a high of 240 damage. And then that's dealt out to EVERY CREATURE WITHIN 30 FEET OF YOU. Assuming 10 creatures, and no-one succeeds on the save EVER (why should they? High DC, relatively uncommon ability score in non-celestials), that's a total of 2,400 damage at maximum.
Your puny Wish and Power Word Kill spells hold NOTHING to weird.
Section 3:
Mordenkainen's Sword is weak, but sometimes WotC makes spells that are more flavor and do nothing (who doesn't like a good, but useless, druidcraft)?
Section 4:
True strike has No Excuse... until you understand that there's a 1st-level spell that only grants advantage on something once (Fortune's Favor). Now does True Strike seem so bad? Take your ire out on Matthew Mercer, if you will. True Strike has become astoundingly powerful, compared to that whining wimp of a spell. But even then, Matthew Mercer knows better than any of us low-uncouth morons.
Section 5:
If you have a problem with "bad spells", just don't chose them.
If you get angry about them, talk with your DM. Homebrew something.
Sometimes, spells aren't about the Damage Per Round or the "OOoohieee, Big Summer Blowout". Sometimes they have flavor that is buried under slightly subpar DPR. Because it's not the explosion that counts - its the way you use it.
Do you use BRUTE FORCE FBI FBI FBI to destroy things in your way? "Ooh, a harmless civilian. SHOOT THEM." "Ooh, a harmless puppy dog. BLOW IT SKY HIGH." "Ooh, Tibalt from MtG. SEND THAT WRETCH TO HELL AND BACK, QUICK-STYLE." If so, you're either a meta-gamer or you aren't thinking or roleplaying. This type of game, dear reader, is known as Hack 'n Slash. You can find it near the guns in your local cereal store.
You don't use brute force? You like talking to civilians? You like patting the puppies? You want to send Tibalt to hell anyway because he's evil scum? Well, you likely roleplay, and in that case low DPR doesn't matter, because you've either hatched a cunning ambush that will slay your quarry for you and your spell will just decimate their vulnerable carcasses, or you've been double-crossed by your good friend Arval Degas who secretly works for Tibalt and is ambushing your ambush. In which case, DPR doesn't matter, because you're dead anyway.
As I said above. If you are unhappy, 'brew an alternative, or just don't pick that spell. Simple as... well, simple as Frost Fingers.
PS. By the way, if Frost Fingers sucked for you, please avoid playing ANY of Icewind Dale: Rime of the Frostmaiden, as you're probably in the hyper-critical groups that will say everything in it is "bad" and say it's nothing like Curse of Strahd, and then pour acid on CoS because there's not enough horror for you. Nothing will ever be "good enough" for you. If you have problems with something, don't start a thread with the keywords "absolutely terrible" or contain the words "What is the business process that WotC is stuck with which forces them to not adequately review these spells and spells like them?". This implies everyone agrees with you. I don't, certainly. Maybe try create a "how to improve existing spells" thread next time, and you won't get the horror that is people disagreeing.
Yours,
- Tasha, author of the award-winning book, Tasha's Cauldron of Everything.
(wink)
S1: Upcasting straight damage spells, especially first level ones, is stupid. Why cast frost fingers at ninth level when a meteor swarm does three times as much damage over a much larger area?
S2: Your save DC will be 19 at that level, assuming no magic items. If someone fails 10 different saves that the average commoner has a 10% chance of succeeding on, they've taken an average of twelve points less than meteor swarm in ten times as long.
S3: There's no point to flavor if nobody takes it.
S4: I don't think Matthew Mercer did all of material in Wildemount. Also, Fortune's Favor is much less situational and having something worse doesn't make TS better.
Witch Bolt, a spell for the ages, deals low damage. Before you realize that you're still out-damaging the fighter if you are both at 1st level. You're casting poison spray, every round, with less resistances. Maybe it's lackluster, maybe it is weaker than some other spells, but Witchy Bolty isn't bad.
Witch Bolt, a spell for the ages, deals low damage. Before you realize that you're still out-damaging the fighter if you are both at 1st level. You're casting poison spray, every round, with less resistances. Maybe it's lackluster, maybe it is weaker than some other spells, but Witchy Bolty isn't bad.
S6: But the fighter has a decent armor class, decent HP, and does more damage after you use your second spell slot.
Witch Bolt, a spell for the ages, deals low damage. Before you realize that you're still out-damaging the fighter if you are both at 1st level. You're casting poison spray, every round, with less resistances. Maybe it's lackluster, maybe it is weaker than some other spells, but Witchy Bolty isn't bad.
Witch Bolt is single target, does nothing on a miss, requires concentration whether it hits or misses, has short range, fully commits you to staying within range and spending your action, and doesn't stop the target from running out of range. The subsequent damage doesn't even scale with spell level. The damage is so low you can cast just about any other 1st level damage spell and still do more damage, without all the drawbacks. Often significantly more damage, if you can catch multiple targets with a save-for-half area spell. It's pretty much already obsolete at 1st level and falls even further behind at 3rd and 5th.
Witch Bolt, a spell for the ages, deals low damage. Before you realize that you're still out-damaging the fighter if you are both at 1st level. You're casting poison spray, every round, with less resistances. Maybe it's lackluster, maybe it is weaker than some other spells, but Witchy Bolty isn't bad.
In a four round combat, it's worse than casting Magic Missile and then Fire Bolt twice (at 70% hit chance, expected damage 22.05 vs 21.66). In a five round combat, it's slightly better. At least, if you ignore the concentration, terrible range, risk of having it ended involuntarily, etc...
Yes, so an average damage of 10.5 fire damage against 9 cold damage. Given the number of creatures with fire resistance compared to the number with cold resistance that minor difference becomes moot.
I'm guessing you're assuming that fire resistance is more common than cold resistance? It's not. Fire res turns up 9 pages of monsters, cold turns up 12.
I'd wager the average CON score across all monsters is higher than average DEX as well. Certainly dumping DEX is more common than dumping CON among monsters.
I certainly don't think FF is useless and I'm glad to see more cold spells added. But I kinda do think it's objectively weaker than BH. Doesn't mean I won't take it though.
Yes, so an average damage of 10.5 fire damage against 9 cold damage. Given the number of creatures with fire resistance compared to the number with cold resistance that minor difference becomes moot.
Also, cold spells tend to go off constitution saves instead of dex saves, That makes them much more useful against fast enemies, like rogues.
Yeah, I had already said that in my first post. It can make a huge difference if your rogue arcane trickster targets wizards with it. Or if as you say, anyone uses it against classes with low con and no con save proficiency.
Yes, so an average damage of 10.5 fire damage against 9 cold damage. Given the number of creatures with fire resistance compared to the number with cold resistance that minor difference becomes moot.
Now, compare the spell to Thunderwave, which has the same damage, of a better damage type (thunder resistance is less common than cold resistance), in a better shape (15' cube covers more volume than 15' cone), with a secondary effect.
You are glossing over the part where it says 'the spell emits a thunderous boom audible out to 300 feet'. Which is pretty important when you are trying to sneak through places. This would alert every Tom, Dick, and Harry to the fact that something was up.
Maybe I missed something here, but why exactly do those spells suck? I read through the descriptions for all of them, and nothing is jumping out at me as being terrible.
Maybe I missed something here, but why exactly do those spells suck? I read through the descriptions for all of them, and nothing is jumping out at me as being terrible.
The two that I always hear about outside this thread are true strike which is basically giving up an action to make your next attack better (with a chance due to concentration that that bonus never actually happens, and witch bolt, which, while a good spell at low levels, scales terribly since the ongoing effect doesn't actually scale at all. I agree that those two are subpar spells.
As for others...no clue on why they think frost fingers sucks, except the damage is a little subpar compared to others (not accounting for the fact that cold is a lesser resisted element and the other comparable spell alerts everyone and their grandma within 300 feet of its casting). the mordenkainen's sword spell people just don't seem to know how to use the right way (two attacks the first turn brings the spell into comparable territory to other similar ones). weird I don't really get either...its no meteor storm, but it has a large range, can clear out/remove from an issue a whole host of creatures, and deals ongoing damage.
Maybe I missed something here, but why exactly do those spells suck? I read through the descriptions for all of them, and nothing is jumping out at me as being terrible.
The two that I always hear about outside this thread are true strike which is basically giving up an action to make your next attack better (with a chance due to concentration that that bonus never actually happens, and witch bolt, which, while a good spell at low levels, scales terribly since the ongoing effect doesn't actually scale at all. I agree that those two are subpar spells.
As for others...no clue on why they think frost fingers sucks, except the damage is a little subpar compared to others (not accounting for the fact that cold is a lesser resisted element and the other comparable spell alerts everyone and their grandma within 300 feet of its casting). the mordenkainen's sword spell people just don't seem to know how to use the right way (two attacks the first turn brings the spell into comparable territory to other similar ones). weird I don't really get either...its no meteor storm, but it has a large range, can clear out/remove from an issue a whole host of creatures, and deals ongoing damage.
Well, true strike and witchbolt are both low level spells.. is it really surprising that once your wizard is more powerful, they are not as effective as other spells? Are players supposed to use the same spells forever? Plus, most of the spells that have been talked about in this conversation have a lot more utility than they're given credit for. For example, most of these spells are really useful if you have snuck up on an enemy, and they have not spotted you yet. Imagine mordenkainen's sword suddenly cast on an orc warband. They would suddenly be under an attack from some strange enemy they've never encountered before, and they have barely any clue how to fight it.. Unless I'm mistaken, I'm pretty sure you can move while concentrating, right? The sword could even be used as a diversion. They fight with the magic force sword while the party slips right by during the commotion.
Neither spell is effective at 1st level so the issue isn't just that they're useless at higher levels (which is normal for 1st level spells), it's that they're pretty much always much worse than the alternatives. That's double bad for True Strike because unlike leveled spells, cantrips aren't supposed to become obsolete and aren't easily replaced.
I do kinda feel like some of the spells are really situational. Spare the dying is barely used (In the campaigns I've played in), And so is counterspell, Against no casters it is 100% useless. Don't even get me started on see invisibility
True Strike is a viable spell for certain characters... except that it specifically applies next turn, which can be surprisingly hard to work around. It's great for rogues, because it provides another option for turning your Sneak Attack on (if you have prep time), and not bad for crit fishers, but that whole "you have to wait until next turn" thing makes it hard to work with--especially compared to most "next turn" effects, which tend to be the looser "until the end of your next turn." This has the effect of locking out the ideal use case, an Eldritch Knight's War Magic (make a single weapon attack as a bonus action after casting a cantrip), and also interferes with using True Strike with any option that would let you cast it as a bonus action. Which leaves... mainly good for stealthing rogues, and anyone else who desperately needs to guarantee they get a hit in.
Spare the Dying is a decent idea, but not really applicable in most cases. Its effect can be replicated by a Medicine check or a healer's kit, and most characters which have access to StD are liable to also have access to proper healing magic (which stabilises and also makes you conscious again). Considering how few cantrip choices you have available, it has to compete with Guidance, Sacred Flame, Light(which honestly has the same issue to a lesser extent, except most people just like the idea of Light better than carrying a flashlight or a pile of torches), and Mending for Clerics, and has even more competition for Artificers. This leaves it as something that you'll use it you get it for free, but in most cases isn't worth the opportunity cost of voluntarily choosing it. (Also, it can be abbreviated as STD, which you really don't want if you have immature players at your table.)
I've thought about ways to get True Strike to work the way I want it to. The best I can come up with is to add a Material component to the spell, something slightly unusual that is consumed in the casting, but easy enough to come by if you prepare in advance. I'd suggest tea leaves. Tap a leaf against the weapon you are going to use, and as a Bonus Action you can use that weapon to attack with advantage. Spell used up on the first attempt.
If you want a spell with somewhat limited utility, check out Identify. It's a first level spell, the casting time is *long*, the Material component is expensive, and you only get to use it on one target. Most of the information the spell gives you learn automatically by taking a Short Rest while in contact with the item.
To be of much use, the spell would need to reveal information you couldn't get any other way, or it would need to be something quick that you could pop off as soon as you found an item, letting you use it from that moment on. The spell can be used on people and it tells you what spells or effects are on them, but you need them to hold still for it. It would be great for discovering charm effects in play or curses, but the target isn't going to want that to happen and the casting time is too long unless you restrain them.
Identify is a hold-over from previous editions of the game. Back in the days when magic items didn't brag about what they were and how to use them, even potions presented hazards unless Identified. Taking a sip was about the only way to quickly find out what a potion did, but you risked getting poisoned, and the information you got was vague. You needed a command word to use a Wand. That might be carved right on the Wand itself, but in what language? If you spoke the word, what would happen? An unexpected Fireball in close quarters was pretty dangerous back then.
5e's version of Identify is mainly meant for use with the DMG variant rules that make it harder to identify magic items without using magic, I believe.
True Strike is a viable spell for certain characters... except that it specifically applies next turn, which can be surprisingly hard to work around. It's great for rogues, because it provides another option for turning your Sneak Attack on (if you have prep time), and not bad for crit fishers, but that whole "you have to wait until next turn" thing makes it hard to work with--especially compared to most "next turn" effects, which tend to be the looser "until the end of your next turn." This has the effect of locking out the ideal use case, an Eldritch Knight's War Magic (make a single weapon attack as a bonus action after casting a cantrip), and also interferes with using True Strike with any option that would let you cast it as a bonus action. Which leaves... mainly good for stealthing rogues, and anyone else who desperately needs to guarantee they get a hit in.
Rogues can already get advantage by hiding as a bonus action and two subclasses give them reliable Sneak Attacks without help or advantage (Swashbuckler and Inquisitive.) A hidden rogue also already has advantage so True Strike doesn't really help further. It's usually not good for crit fishers either since at best you're giving up one d20 on your current turn to roll two on the next, when you could've just attacked on both turns and maybe scored two criticals. For any character that uses bonus action attacks or Extra Attack you're giving up multiple d20 rolls to roll one extra die next turn. It can be slightly useful with the Elven Accuracy feat since that gets you an additional d20, but you still have to give up concentration and you run the risk of wasting your turn if the situation changes next round and you end up having to do something else.
Spare the Dying is a decent idea, but not really applicable in most cases. Its effect can be replicated by a Medicine check or a healer's kit, and most characters which have access to StD are liable to also have access to proper healing magic (which stabilises and also makes you conscious again). Considering how few cantrip choices you have available, it has to compete with Guidance, Sacred Flame, Light(which honestly has the same issue to a lesser extent, except most people just like the idea of Light better than carrying a flashlight or a pile of torches), and Mending for Clerics, and has even more competition for Artificers. This leaves it as something that you'll use it you get it for free, but in most cases isn't worth the opportunity cost of voluntarily choosing it. (Also, it can be abbreviated as STD, which you really don't want if you have immature players at your table.)
The nice thing about Spare the Dying is that it's reliable. Medicine checks can fail, which means not only did you waste your action, but your buddy might also not make it to the next round. Healer's Kits are consumable, weigh you down, and you need to have it within easy reach or else you might need to waste another action to get it out of your backpack, Bag of Holding or pack mule.
In my opinion Sacred Flame and Light already do such a good job of covering your bases that I'd rather give up my third cantrip slot for Spare the Dying than give up one of my limited skill proficiencies for Medicine or add more to my carrying load. Guidance is also nice but I've also been in plenty of situations where I was already concentrating on something else and couldn't cast it. Mending is very niche and while I won't say it's a bad cantrip, there's many adventures or quests where it might not come up for long periods of times.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The Forum Infestation (TM)
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Honestly, 5-10 bad spells out of 500+? 98% is a pretty good record, honestly. Don't see why the rant is necessary. if you really wanted to fix the "bad" spells, its honestly pretty easy:
most of them all you'd need to do is remove the concentration component. weird could be improved by doubling the range, increasing the damage, or changing the inflicted condition to something more akin to paralyzed or stunned. This stuff isn't hard, but honestly isn't necessary; there are a lot of other choices that are fine.
No doubt Thunderwave is overall a slightly better pick for most people. But the difference between them is small and Frost Fingers has its niche with Draconic Sorcerers or anyone else that wants an ice-themed character for whatever reason. If Frost Fingers is awful then surely Thunderwave is awful too because they're almost the exact same spell.
The Forum Infestation (TM)
Section 1:
Frost Fingers deals more damage at higher levels than burning hands. At 9th level it ends up 10d8 for frost fingers vs 11d6. This means, at 9th-level:
11d6 has higher minimum damage (11), an average of 33 fire damage, and a maximum of 66 fire damage.
10d8 has lower minimum damage (10), an average of 40 cold damage (7 more than burning hands), and a maximum of 80 cold damage, which shoots burning hands out of the water by 14 damage.
- That means that Frost Fingers is actually a better spell in the long run than Burning Hands, as it will end up dealing more damage at higher levels. For Frost Fingers, it's all about the upgrades.
Section 2:
Weird is not as weak as you think. It targets EVERYONE in a 30-foot radius sphere. That's a big sphere - enough to hold dozens of medium creatures. It also goes UP, too, so it hits creatures with flying.
The spell lasts for 1 minute (concentration, I know), but for the duration after a Wis save (which is generally rather low for most non-celestial-beast creatures, and at this level your DC is HIGH) creatures are FRIGHTENED of you (they can't really even attempt to properly attack you and they must RUN AWAY!!!), and they take 4d10 damage each turn. If you succeed on keeping this spell active for the duration, assuming the creature doesn't succeed on any saves, that's 120 psychic damage on average at the end of everything, with a high of 240 damage. And then that's dealt out to EVERY CREATURE WITHIN 30 FEET OF YOU. Assuming 10 creatures, and no-one succeeds on the save EVER (why should they? High DC, relatively uncommon ability score in non-celestials), that's a total of 2,400 damage at maximum.
Your puny Wish and Power Word Kill spells hold NOTHING to weird.
Section 3:
Mordenkainen's Sword is weak, but sometimes WotC makes spells that are more flavor and do nothing (who doesn't like a good, but useless, druidcraft)?
Section 4:
True strike has No Excuse... until you understand that there's a 1st-level spell that only grants advantage on something once (Fortune's Favor). Now does True Strike seem so bad? Take your ire out on Matthew Mercer, if you will. True Strike has become astoundingly powerful, compared to that whining wimp of a spell. But even then, Matthew Mercer knows better than any of us low-uncouth morons.
Section 5:
If you have a problem with "bad spells", just don't chose them.
If you get angry about them, talk with your DM. Homebrew something.
Sometimes, spells aren't about the Damage Per Round or the "OOoohieee, Big Summer Blowout". Sometimes they have flavor that is buried under slightly subpar DPR. Because it's not the explosion that counts - its the way you use it.
Do you use BRUTE FORCE FBI FBI FBI to destroy things in your way? "Ooh, a harmless civilian. SHOOT THEM." "Ooh, a harmless puppy dog. BLOW IT SKY HIGH." "Ooh, Tibalt from MtG. SEND THAT WRETCH TO HELL AND BACK, QUICK-STYLE." If so, you're either a meta-gamer or you aren't thinking or roleplaying. This type of game, dear reader, is known as Hack 'n Slash. You can find it near the guns in your local cereal store. You're the sort that NEEDS more OP spells because you're constantly trying to kill yourself.
You don't use brute force? You like talking to civilians? You like patting the puppies? You want to send Tibalt to hell anyway because he's evil scum? Well, you likely roleplay, and in that case low DPR doesn't matter, because you've either hatched a cunning ambush that will slay your quarry for you and your spell will just decimate their vulnerable carcasses, or you've been double-crossed by your good friend Arval Degas who secretly works for Tibalt and is ambushing your ambush. In which case, DPR doesn't matter, because you're dead anyway.
As I said above. If you are unhappy, 'brew an alternative, or just don't pick that spell. Simple as... well, simple as Frost Fingers.
PS. By the way, if Frost Fingers sucked for you, please avoid playing ANY of Icewind Dale: Rime of the Frostmaiden, as you're probably in the hyper-critical groups that will say everything in it is "bad" and say it's nothing like Curse of Strahd, and then pour acid on CoS because there's not enough horror for you. Nothing will ever be "good enough" for you. If you have problems with something, don't start a thread with the keywords "absolutely terrible" or contain the words "What is the business process that WotC is stuck with which forces them to not adequately review these spells and spells like them?". This implies everyone agrees with you. I don't, certainly. Maybe try create a "how to improve existing spells" thread next time, and you won't get the horror that is people disagreeing.
Yours,
- Tasha, author of the award-winning book, Tasha's Cauldron of Everything.
(wink)
Frequent Eladrin || They/Them, but accept all pronouns
Luz Noceda would like to remind you that you're worth loving!
S1: Upcasting straight damage spells, especially first level ones, is stupid. Why cast frost fingers at ninth level when a meteor swarm does three times as much damage over a much larger area?
S2: Your save DC will be 19 at that level, assuming no magic items. If someone fails 10 different saves that the average commoner has a 10% chance of succeeding on, they've taken an average of twelve points less than meteor swarm in ten times as long.
S3: There's no point to flavor if nobody takes it.
S4: I don't think Matthew Mercer did all of material in Wildemount. Also, Fortune's Favor is much less situational and having something worse doesn't make TS better.
S5: This is the Stormwind Fallacy.
I have a weird sense of humor.
I also make maps.(That's a link)
Section 6:
Witch Bolt, a spell for the ages, deals low damage. Before you realize that you're still out-damaging the fighter if you are both at 1st level. You're casting poison spray, every round, with less resistances. Maybe it's lackluster, maybe it is weaker than some other spells, but Witchy Bolty isn't bad.
Frequent Eladrin || They/Them, but accept all pronouns
Luz Noceda would like to remind you that you're worth loving!
S6: But the fighter has a decent armor class, decent HP, and does more damage after you use your second spell slot.
I have a weird sense of humor.
I also make maps.(That's a link)
Witch Bolt is single target, does nothing on a miss, requires concentration whether it hits or misses, has short range, fully commits you to staying within range and spending your action, and doesn't stop the target from running out of range. The subsequent damage doesn't even scale with spell level. The damage is so low you can cast just about any other 1st level damage spell and still do more damage, without all the drawbacks. Often significantly more damage, if you can catch multiple targets with a save-for-half area spell. It's pretty much already obsolete at 1st level and falls even further behind at 3rd and 5th.
The Forum Infestation (TM)
In a four round combat, it's worse than casting Magic Missile and then Fire Bolt twice (at 70% hit chance, expected damage 22.05 vs 21.66). In a five round combat, it's slightly better. At least, if you ignore the concentration, terrible range, risk of having it ended involuntarily, etc...
I'm guessing you're assuming that fire resistance is more common than cold resistance? It's not. Fire res turns up 9 pages of monsters, cold turns up 12.
I'd wager the average CON score across all monsters is higher than average DEX as well. Certainly dumping DEX is more common than dumping CON among monsters.
I certainly don't think FF is useless and I'm glad to see more cold spells added. But I kinda do think it's objectively weaker than BH. Doesn't mean I won't take it though.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
Yeah, I had already said that in my first post. It can make a huge difference if your rogue arcane trickster targets wizards with it. Or if as you say, anyone uses it against classes with low con and no con save proficiency.
You are glossing over the part where it says 'the spell emits a thunderous boom audible out to 300 feet'. Which is pretty important when you are trying to sneak through places. This would alert every Tom, Dick, and Harry to the fact that something was up.
Maybe I missed something here, but why exactly do those spells suck? I read through the descriptions for all of them, and nothing is jumping out at me as being terrible.
The two that I always hear about outside this thread are true strike which is basically giving up an action to make your next attack better (with a chance due to concentration that that bonus never actually happens, and witch bolt, which, while a good spell at low levels, scales terribly since the ongoing effect doesn't actually scale at all. I agree that those two are subpar spells.
As for others...no clue on why they think frost fingers sucks, except the damage is a little subpar compared to others (not accounting for the fact that cold is a lesser resisted element and the other comparable spell alerts everyone and their grandma within 300 feet of its casting). the mordenkainen's sword spell people just don't seem to know how to use the right way (two attacks the first turn brings the spell into comparable territory to other similar ones). weird I don't really get either...its no meteor storm, but it has a large range, can clear out/remove from an issue a whole host of creatures, and deals ongoing damage.
Well, true strike and witchbolt are both low level spells.. is it really surprising that once your wizard is more powerful, they are not as effective as other spells? Are players supposed to use the same spells forever? Plus, most of the spells that have been talked about in this conversation have a lot more utility than they're given credit for. For example, most of these spells are really useful if you have snuck up on an enemy, and they have not spotted you yet. Imagine mordenkainen's sword suddenly cast on an orc warband. They would suddenly be under an attack from some strange enemy they've never encountered before, and they have barely any clue how to fight it.. Unless I'm mistaken, I'm pretty sure you can move while concentrating, right? The sword could even be used as a diversion. They fight with the magic force sword while the party slips right by during the commotion.
Neither spell is effective at 1st level so the issue isn't just that they're useless at higher levels (which is normal for 1st level spells), it's that they're pretty much always much worse than the alternatives. That's double bad for True Strike because unlike leveled spells, cantrips aren't supposed to become obsolete and aren't easily replaced.
The Forum Infestation (TM)
I do kinda feel like some of the spells are really situational. Spare the dying is barely used (In the campaigns I've played in), And so is counterspell, Against no casters it is 100% useless. Don't even get me started on see invisibility
True Strike is a viable spell for certain characters... except that it specifically applies next turn, which can be surprisingly hard to work around. It's great for rogues, because it provides another option for turning your Sneak Attack on (if you have prep time), and not bad for crit fishers, but that whole "you have to wait until next turn" thing makes it hard to work with--especially compared to most "next turn" effects, which tend to be the looser "until the end of your next turn." This has the effect of locking out the ideal use case, an Eldritch Knight's War Magic (make a single weapon attack as a bonus action after casting a cantrip), and also interferes with using True Strike with any option that would let you cast it as a bonus action. Which leaves... mainly good for stealthing rogues, and anyone else who desperately needs to guarantee they get a hit in.
Spare the Dying is a decent idea, but not really applicable in most cases. Its effect can be replicated by a Medicine check or a healer's kit, and most characters which have access to StD are liable to also have access to proper healing magic (which stabilises and also makes you conscious again). Considering how few cantrip choices you have available, it has to compete with Guidance, Sacred Flame, Light
(which honestly has the same issue to a lesser extent, except most people just like the idea of Light better than carrying a flashlight or a pile of torches), and Mending for Clerics, and has even more competition for Artificers. This leaves it as something that you'll use it you get it for free, but in most cases isn't worth the opportunity cost of voluntarily choosing it. (Also, it can be abbreviated as STD, which you really don't want if you have immature players at your table.)I've thought about ways to get True Strike to work the way I want it to. The best I can come up with is to add a Material component to the spell, something slightly unusual that is consumed in the casting, but easy enough to come by if you prepare in advance. I'd suggest tea leaves. Tap a leaf against the weapon you are going to use, and as a Bonus Action you can use that weapon to attack with advantage. Spell used up on the first attempt.
If you want a spell with somewhat limited utility, check out Identify. It's a first level spell, the casting time is *long*, the Material component is expensive, and you only get to use it on one target. Most of the information the spell gives you learn automatically by taking a Short Rest while in contact with the item.
To be of much use, the spell would need to reveal information you couldn't get any other way, or it would need to be something quick that you could pop off as soon as you found an item, letting you use it from that moment on. The spell can be used on people and it tells you what spells or effects are on them, but you need them to hold still for it. It would be great for discovering charm effects in play or curses, but the target isn't going to want that to happen and the casting time is too long unless you restrain them.
Identify is a hold-over from previous editions of the game. Back in the days when magic items didn't brag about what they were and how to use them, even potions presented hazards unless Identified. Taking a sip was about the only way to quickly find out what a potion did, but you risked getting poisoned, and the information you got was vague. You needed a command word to use a Wand. That might be carved right on the Wand itself, but in what language? If you spoke the word, what would happen? An unexpected Fireball in close quarters was pretty dangerous back then.
<Insert clever signature here>
5e's version of Identify is mainly meant for use with the DMG variant rules that make it harder to identify magic items without using magic, I believe.
Rogues can already get advantage by hiding as a bonus action and two subclasses give them reliable Sneak Attacks without help or advantage (Swashbuckler and Inquisitive.) A hidden rogue also already has advantage so True Strike doesn't really help further. It's usually not good for crit fishers either since at best you're giving up one d20 on your current turn to roll two on the next, when you could've just attacked on both turns and maybe scored two criticals. For any character that uses bonus action attacks or Extra Attack you're giving up multiple d20 rolls to roll one extra die next turn. It can be slightly useful with the Elven Accuracy feat since that gets you an additional d20, but you still have to give up concentration and you run the risk of wasting your turn if the situation changes next round and you end up having to do something else.
The nice thing about Spare the Dying is that it's reliable. Medicine checks can fail, which means not only did you waste your action, but your buddy might also not make it to the next round. Healer's Kits are consumable, weigh you down, and you need to have it within easy reach or else you might need to waste another action to get it out of your backpack, Bag of Holding or pack mule.
In my opinion Sacred Flame and Light already do such a good job of covering your bases that I'd rather give up my third cantrip slot for Spare the Dying than give up one of my limited skill proficiencies for Medicine or add more to my carrying load. Guidance is also nice but I've also been in plenty of situations where I was already concentrating on something else and couldn't cast it. Mending is very niche and while I won't say it's a bad cantrip, there's many adventures or quests where it might not come up for long periods of times.
The Forum Infestation (TM)