Still missing the point. You guys need to watch Goblin Slayer to see how this is done correctly.
I have seen Goblin Slayer, and I have seen a shit ton of other fantasy anime too. But that does not mean I should take every idea they present and put it into my D&D games. If you watch Goblin Slayer and you insist on incorporating **** scenes in your game to make your game feel dark and gritty despite people at your table feeling repulsed by it, you would be considered a sick jerk.
Goblin Slayer is someone's homebrew take on D&D, and their way of playing is no more valid than anyone else's. Saying that others should follow the lore of Goblin Slayer is no different from those toxic D&D snobs who insist that players must roleplay, strictly follow RAW, play the "correct" way, etc. If you do not like it when people boss you around and dictate how you should have fun, then do not do it other people.
Do not be one of those toxic people and stick your nose into other people's table and lecture how others should play when you are not even playing at their table.
Well... your world is not my world. In your world, it doesnt work. In my work, it totally does. Who says we cant be both right? In any case, for you unable to accept it, thats a real problem. You are sucking the fun out of it. Shame on you!
Well... your world is not my world. In your world, it doesnt work. In my work, it totally does. Who says we cant be both right? In any case, for you unable to accept it, thats a real problem. You are sucking the fun out of it. Shame on you!
No one here is telling you how to run YOUR game. No one is objecting to how you run Beholders at YOUR table. I do not give two farts about how you play and no one here honestly even cares about what happens at YOUR space. If you want to run Beholders at YOUR game the way how Goblin Slayer handles, by all means do so with all of our blessing.
The real problem here is that you are provoking and insulting people right from the start in the OP, and you are telling us how to run OUR games. You are butting in and sticking your nose into OUR table telling us we need to do X, Y, and Z or else we are dumb and unfun.
I have already explained it. Its a shoot first creature. They can target object. So if they target the mirror which the rays dont work... more reason to be drawn by it... so literally distracted by it. You have already answered your own question.
Well, any DMs that simply cant handle people that think out of the box has nothing to do with the fact whether he's smart or not. But if he cant get the concept then it means that he's not smart. Smart people always think out of the box. The ability to think out of the box makes them smart people. Hope you have learned something here.
The difference between a brilliant general and a mediocre one is the fact that a brilliant knows a trick only works for a short period of time and the short period of time is enough to gain a tactical advantage to win a battle. An mediocre one may simply thought of it but reluctant to employ it because its not a permanent solution and thus missing the opportunity and hence lose the battle.
In short, you are missing the point totally. Beholders are not dogs but when they behave like dogs, they are dogs. Its not what they are that makes them who they are. You can have two dogs that look exactly the same but they behave completely differently. One may be acting tough but scare easy. The other may be weak but can stand its ground. When a beholder sees another beholder, they go berserk. When they go berserk, they dont think straight. When they dont think straight thats the time to kill them. I dont understand why you cant understand this train of thought. Its very logical. When people go berserk, no matter how smart they are they dont think logically. They go with impulse. So being smart has nothing to do with what you say.
Lastly, this is a rpg and hence at some point theres a roleplaying element to it. If the DM is not roleplaying its beholder then this becomes a computer game. As such, it will suck out some fun. My honest advice, dont be a guy that sucks out all the fun.
Whatever you guys say that I am wrong ... you dont have things to back up what you say but I have. Volo's guide is clear that "passive paranoia is the beholder’s genius-level intelligence" and for a solitary beholder, "the creature’s basic nature often means that the first thing they do is try to destroy one another". So what I have written saying its a shoot first creature does not deviate from what is written in the lore. Moreover, even it has genius level intelligence, it is paranoid. It believes anything that it sees is a plot to kill itself (also stated in the Volo's guide). So what I say in that it will strike the beholder first is also established. So stop saying what I think wont happen because it truly can. I have already stated what you guys think may also happen but you have no right to say what I think wont happen. Its an game which people imagine things for crying out loud. Imagine is the key. Thats why I say you are missing the point. And starting having fun and stop sucking the fun out of others. For peat sake.
Whatever you guys say that I am wrong ... you dont have things to back up what you say but I have. Volo's guide is clear that "passive paranoia is the beholder’s genius-level intelligence" and for a solitary beholder, "the creature’s basic nature often means that the first thing they do is try to destroy one another". So what I have written saying its a shoot first creature does not deviate from what is written in the lore. Moreover, even it has genius level intelligence, it is paranoid. It believes anything that it sees is a plot to kill itself (also stated in the Volo's guide). So what I say in that it will strike the beholder first is also established.
You are cherry picking information on Beholder's, and here is the whole passage on its inhuman intellect:
" A beholder sees in all directions. It is always looking for concealed attackers. Even when it sleeps, its smaller eyes remain open, scanning its lair for threats. If a human acted this way, the constant vigilance and lack of truly peaceful rest would lead to a dangerous level of psychosis, but a beholder’s mind accepts this attitude as normal and necessary — it is always alert to the possibility of assassination or betrayal by unknown threats that stand ready to pounce on the beholder the instant it lets its guard down.
Complementing this ever-present, passive paranoia is the beholder’s genius-level intelligence. Where another creature would ignore the occurrence of two seemingly unrelated events as merely coincidental, a beholder imagines multiple ways they could be related, finding or fabricating a pattern out of supposed or actual randomness. By thinking of all these possibilities — however implausible they might be — and extrapolating its own actions in response, a beholder is truly prepared for any situation and has a strategy to counteract it.
A beholder has plans on top of plans, even for the least likely circumstances. It doesn’t matter if invading adventurers arrive at its lair with summoned angel allies or enslaved demons, by breaking through the floor, by teleporting or riding dinosaurs, or girded with layers of magical defenses and armed with advanced weapons. In any case, the beholder’s reaction is calculated, because it has thought about what it and its minions must do in response to every situation. "
Lore wise, a Beholder is not dumb enough to fall for mirrors and would have though about that already.
So stop saying what I think wont happen because it truly can. I have already stated what you guys think may also happen but you have no right to say what I think wont happen. Its an game which people imagine things for crying out loud. Imagine is the key. Thats why I say you are missing the point. And starting having fun and stop sucking the fun out of others. For peat sake.
I think you are missing our point. NO ONE here is telling you cannot homebrew at YOUR table. We do not care how you run YOUR games. As long as you and your players are having fun, do whatever that pleases you. Feel free to interpret the lore however you want at your table.
However, what we have an issue with is that you are provoking and insulting us and shoving YOUR interpretation of the lore down OUR throats, and the interpretation does not even seem plausible for the official lore. For the vast majority of the people here, how we understand Beholders is that while they are paranoid, they are smart enough to not fall for tricks like mirrors. The whole passage exagerating its genius level intellect and thinking through all the possibilities in battle does not support the conclusion that the beholder is going to fall for simple tricks. Beholders are paranoid in terms of not trusting others and being hostile to everyone else, but they are not paranoid to the point where it affacts their intellect.
Guess you need to read Goblin Slayer before you reply here.
I've seen Goblin Slayer. I know exactly what you are talking about. That was a super cool scene and felt very D&D-esque.
At the end of the day, Goblin Slayer is a different work of fiction and is not associate with Wizards of the Coast in any way. The way Beholders work in D&D 5e is not the same as how they work in manga or anime. Goblin Slayer is written for a completely different medium (a story as opposed to a game).
Goblin Slayer "world rules" =/= D&D rules as written just in the same vein as Lord of the Rings "world rules" =/= D&D rules as written.
Saying that something should work in the Forgotten Realms a certain way just because you saw something happen in a comic or tv show doesnt make any sense.
In D&D, for RAW, an ability only does what it says it does. No more, no less. There is nothing about a Beholder's eye beams that says it will reflect off of surfaces IIRC.
Thus, your strategy can only work if your DM is cool with it. Because it is not RAW, you cannot put the expectations on other DMs to use the same interpretation
As someone who watches his fair share of anime, it is a mistake to try and apply anime logic to D&D rules and use it as your proof that an idea should work.
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1. What happens when a Beholder sees itself in a mirror?
Answer: Same as what will happen when a dog sees itself in a mirror? Dogs and Beholders both territorial. So they will definitely kill the reflection.
[sic]
PS Dont take it too seriously because the strategy given here only works if your DM allows it. If he doesnt, you can tell that he's a jerk.
Ummm…. I don’t know where you learned about dogs, but mine usually try to play with ”the new dog” until they learn about reflections. Of course, that’s part of puppyhood. When the dog sees the other dog, and then sees you standing next to the other dog, and then looks up and sees you standing next to them…. After a moment they learn to recognize their own reflections. We have several full-sized, floor length mirrors in my house and the dogs walk right past their own reflections all the time.
Of course, dogs are rational, intelligent animals and beholders are insane figments of a cocaine-addled imagination. Likely dogs are smarter than beholders.
PS- Since step 1 is on shakes ground, it’s kinda hard to call someone a jerk for not agreeing with you.
They would ADORE their own reflection. They are self obsessed and consumed by this. And highly intelligent. I think it would bring joy to its heart rather than trigger some canine reaction.
In Waterdeep Dragon Heist, Xanathar loves his mirror because he can uses it to travel. But I still believe if a beholder is surprised by his own reflection, his reaction is to attack it since Beholders do not like other beholders around. Shoot first is what I believe they are. Everyone can think I am wrong but in my world, this is what beholder does.
In Waterdeep Dragon Heist, Xanathar loves his mirror because he can uses it to travel. But I still believe if a beholder is surprised by his own reflection, his reaction is to attack it since Beholders do not like other beholders around. Shoot first is what I believe they are. Everyone can think I am wrong but in my world, this is what beholder does.
And you are completely within your rights to believe that is how a beholder would react and you would be right.
And another DM could believe that this intelligent creature has already run through every possible situation for an attack, due to its paranoia, including an adventurer using a mirror to try and trick it, and had prepared a reaction to it. And that DM is well within their rights to believe that and they would also be right as well.
Just because you think that would be sucking all the fun out doesn’t make it not fun for the other DM and their players. It just wouldn’t be fun for you. And that’s ok too.
Yes they can do that in their game and I am not stopping them. Being equal, they should do the same and stop interfering with my game.
When you posted this to the forum, you invited discussion for it, which is what is happening. If the item is not up for debate in your mind, you probably should have kept it there. Posting anything to a forum is inviting others to discuss and debate it.
As a DM for this group, I'd just put a mirror on the opposite wall of a room they enter and tell them the caster and ranged all make an attack when the door opens. This is what Beholder with 17 INT would do, so PC's with a 10-14 INT will SURELY do the same thing, in a dungeon where everything they have encountered attacks them. Casters all lose a spell slot and Ranged lose ammo. If enemies are in the room, they get a free surprise attack, because the group's distracted by the mirror.
Sure, it works.....but remember, if it works for you, it will work for the enemy too.
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An interesting question is whether a beholder could use mirrors to bounce its eye rays and what the effect might be. It could come as a shock to the party members when one of their party turns into stone from a ray shot around the bend.
An interesting question is whether a beholder could use mirrors to bounce its eye rays and what the effect might be. It could come as a shock to the party members when one of their party turns into stone from a ray shot around the bend.
RAW I'd say no as nothing suggests that light reflects their rays, but this could be a fun thing to do for a memorable encounter.
A smart Beholder would strategically place the mirrors to see around corners while it was resting.
'It would give it a better advantage to defend itself. Which is exactly what a paranoid creature would do if it could see and sleep at the same time.
My real question is, could it use magic items it finds like scrying devices or rings? Its obviously smart enough to try to figure them out.
I don't see why not, beholders are intelligent enough, unless something about a particular magic item couldn't work for them. Like a pair of boots with them not having feet or something specifying the type of creature that can attune to it etc.
I was always wondering if some DM's let rings and some other magic items change size a significant amount in order to fit odd sized creatures. We normally only let magic items change enough to fit small to large beings. Tiny and huge would be out of the range.
And would the eye stalk be small enough to fit a ring?
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I have seen Goblin Slayer, and I have seen a shit ton of other fantasy anime too. But that does not mean I should take every idea they present and put it into my D&D games. If you watch Goblin Slayer and you insist on incorporating **** scenes in your game to make your game feel dark and gritty despite people at your table feeling repulsed by it, you would be considered a sick jerk.
Goblin Slayer is someone's homebrew take on D&D, and their way of playing is no more valid than anyone else's. Saying that others should follow the lore of Goblin Slayer is no different from those toxic D&D snobs who insist that players must roleplay, strictly follow RAW, play the "correct" way, etc. If you do not like it when people boss you around and dictate how you should have fun, then do not do it other people.
Do not be one of those toxic people and stick your nose into other people's table and lecture how others should play when you are not even playing at their table.
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Why does that sound like the title for the nerdiest version ever of either an Irish folk song or a country/western song?
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Well... your world is not my world. In your world, it doesnt work. In my work, it totally does. Who says we cant be both right? In any case, for you unable to accept it, thats a real problem. You are sucking the fun out of it. Shame on you!
Nah, the truck shoots the dog and runs off with the wife.
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No one here is telling you how to run YOUR game. No one is objecting to how you run Beholders at YOUR table. I do not give two farts about how you play and no one here honestly even cares about what happens at YOUR space. If you want to run Beholders at YOUR game the way how Goblin Slayer handles, by all means do so with all of our blessing.
The real problem here is that you are provoking and insulting people right from the start in the OP, and you are telling us how to run OUR games. You are butting in and sticking your nose into OUR table telling us we need to do X, Y, and Z or else we are dumb and unfun.
Maybe you did not mean to come across as condescending and confronational, but the impression you left behind most certainly reeks that way to us.
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Running the Game by Matt Colville; Introduction: < https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-YZvLUXcR8 >
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Whatever you guys say that I am wrong ... you dont have things to back up what you say but I have. Volo's guide is clear that "passive paranoia is the beholder’s genius-level intelligence" and for a solitary beholder, "the creature’s basic nature often means that the first thing they do is try to destroy one another". So what I have written saying its a shoot first creature does not deviate from what is written in the lore. Moreover, even it has genius level intelligence, it is paranoid. It believes anything that it sees is a plot to kill itself (also stated in the Volo's guide). So what I say in that it will strike the beholder first is also established. So stop saying what I think wont happen because it truly can. I have already stated what you guys think may also happen but you have no right to say what I think wont happen. Its an game which people imagine things for crying out loud. Imagine is the key. Thats why I say you are missing the point. And starting having fun and stop sucking the fun out of others. For peat sake.
You are cherry picking information on Beholder's, and here is the whole passage on its inhuman intellect:
"
A beholder sees in all directions. It is always looking for concealed attackers. Even when it sleeps, its smaller eyes remain open, scanning its lair for threats. If a human acted this way, the constant vigilance and lack of truly peaceful rest would lead to a dangerous level of psychosis, but a beholder’s mind accepts this attitude as normal and necessary — it is always alert to the possibility of assassination or betrayal by unknown threats that stand ready to pounce on the beholder the instant it lets its guard down.
Complementing this ever-present, passive paranoia is the beholder’s genius-level intelligence. Where another creature would ignore the occurrence of two seemingly unrelated events as merely coincidental, a beholder imagines multiple ways they could be related, finding or fabricating a pattern out of supposed or actual randomness. By thinking of all these possibilities — however implausible they might be — and extrapolating its own actions in response, a beholder is truly prepared for any situation and has a strategy to counteract it.
A beholder has plans on top of plans, even for the least likely circumstances. It doesn’t matter if invading adventurers arrive at its lair with summoned angel allies or enslaved demons, by breaking through the floor, by teleporting or riding dinosaurs, or girded with layers of magical defenses and armed with advanced weapons. In any case, the beholder’s reaction is calculated, because it has thought about what it and its minions must do in response to every situation.
"
Lore wise, a Beholder is not dumb enough to fall for mirrors and would have though about that already.
I think you are missing our point. NO ONE here is telling you cannot homebrew at YOUR table. We do not care how you run YOUR games. As long as you and your players are having fun, do whatever that pleases you. Feel free to interpret the lore however you want at your table.
However, what we have an issue with is that you are provoking and insulting us and shoving YOUR interpretation of the lore down OUR throats, and the interpretation does not even seem plausible for the official lore. For the vast majority of the people here, how we understand Beholders is that while they are paranoid, they are smart enough to not fall for tricks like mirrors. The whole passage exagerating its genius level intellect and thinking through all the possibilities in battle does not support the conclusion that the beholder is going to fall for simple tricks. Beholders are paranoid in terms of not trusting others and being hostile to everyone else, but they are not paranoid to the point where it affacts their intellect.
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I've seen Goblin Slayer. I know exactly what you are talking about. That was a super cool scene and felt very D&D-esque.
At the end of the day, Goblin Slayer is a different work of fiction and is not associate with Wizards of the Coast in any way. The way Beholders work in D&D 5e is not the same as how they work in manga or anime. Goblin Slayer is written for a completely different medium (a story as opposed to a game).
Goblin Slayer "world rules" =/= D&D rules as written just in the same vein as Lord of the Rings "world rules" =/= D&D rules as written.
Saying that something should work in the Forgotten Realms a certain way just because you saw something happen in a comic or tv show doesnt make any sense.
In D&D, for RAW, an ability only does what it says it does. No more, no less. There is nothing about a Beholder's eye beams that says it will reflect off of surfaces IIRC.
Thus, your strategy can only work if your DM is cool with it. Because it is not RAW, you cannot put the expectations on other DMs to use the same interpretation
As someone who watches his fair share of anime, it is a mistake to try and apply anime logic to D&D rules and use it as your proof that an idea should work.
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Ummm…. I don’t know where you learned about dogs, but mine usually try to play with ”the new dog” until they learn about reflections. Of course, that’s part of puppyhood. When the dog sees the other dog, and then sees you standing next to the other dog, and then looks up and sees you standing next to them…. After a moment they learn to recognize their own reflections. We have several full-sized, floor length mirrors in my house and the dogs walk right past their own reflections all the time.
Of course, dogs are rational, intelligent animals and beholders are insane figments of a cocaine-addled imagination. Likely dogs are smarter than beholders.
PS- Since step 1 is on shakes ground, it’s kinda hard to call someone a jerk for not agreeing with you.
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They would ADORE their own reflection. They are self obsessed and consumed by this. And highly intelligent. I think it would bring joy to its heart rather than trigger some canine reaction.
In Waterdeep Dragon Heist, Xanathar loves his mirror because he can uses it to travel. But I still believe if a beholder is surprised by his own reflection, his reaction is to attack it since Beholders do not like other beholders around. Shoot first is what I believe they are. Everyone can think I am wrong but in my world, this is what beholder does.
And you are completely within your rights to believe that is how a beholder would react and you would be right.
And another DM could believe that this intelligent creature has already run through every possible situation for an attack, due to its paranoia, including an adventurer using a mirror to try and trick it, and had prepared a reaction to it. And that DM is well within their rights to believe that and they would also be right as well.
Just because you think that would be sucking all the fun out doesn’t make it not fun for the other DM and their players. It just wouldn’t be fun for you. And that’s ok too.
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Yes they can do that in their game and I am not stopping them. Being equal, they should do the same and stop interfering with my game.
When you posted this to the forum, you invited discussion for it, which is what is happening. If the item is not up for debate in your mind, you probably should have kept it there. Posting anything to a forum is inviting others to discuss and debate it.
As a DM for this group, I'd just put a mirror on the opposite wall of a room they enter and tell them the caster and ranged all make an attack when the door opens. This is what Beholder with 17 INT would do, so PC's with a 10-14 INT will SURELY do the same thing, in a dungeon where everything they have encountered attacks them. Casters all lose a spell slot and Ranged lose ammo. If enemies are in the room, they get a free surprise attack, because the group's distracted by the mirror.
Sure, it works.....but remember, if it works for you, it will work for the enemy too.
Talk to your Players. Talk to your DM. If more people used this advice, there would be 24.74% fewer threads on Tactics, Rules and DM discussions.
An interesting question is whether a beholder could use mirrors to bounce its eye rays and what the effect might be. It could come as a shock to the party members when one of their party turns into stone from a ray shot around the bend.
Elethra
A smart Beholder would strategically place the mirrors to see around corners while it was resting.
'It would give it a better advantage to defend itself. Which is exactly what a paranoid creature would do if it could see and sleep at the same time.
My real question is, could it use magic items it finds like scrying devices or rings? Its obviously smart enough to try to figure them out.
RAW I'd say no as nothing suggests that light reflects their rays, but this could be a fun thing to do for a memorable encounter.
I don't see why not, beholders are intelligent enough, unless something about a particular magic item couldn't work for them. Like a pair of boots with them not having feet or something specifying the type of creature that can attune to it etc.
Xanathar uses magic rings. He puts them on his eye stalks. I assume he uses telekinesis to pick them up, lol.
I was always wondering if some DM's let rings and some other magic items change size a significant amount in order to fit odd sized creatures. We normally only let magic items change enough to fit small to large beings. Tiny and huge would be out of the range.
And would the eye stalk be small enough to fit a ring?