Could an Artificer use two infusions to make two of these then use them as a grenade to trigger the rift? "Placing a bag of holding inside an extradimensional space created by a Heward's Handy Haversack, Portable Hole, or similar item instantly destroys both items and opens a gate to the Astral Plane. The gate originates where the one item was placed inside the other. Any creature within 10 feet of the gate is sucked through it to a random location on the Astral Plane. The gate then closes. The gate is one-way only and can't be reopened."
Although it doesn't say another Bag of Holding, it would fall under "similar item"
Then, can they just make more and repeat this process? If an infused item is destroyed the Artificer can just infuse another item (matching qualifications) i.e. if my Enhanced Weapon Club broke I can just get another club and infuse Enhanced Weapon on it, yeah?
For repeating would you have to just redo the infusion on another item or would you need to relearn the infusion? Which would be any level gained. I was surprised to see the Bag of Holding on the list of immediate options.
Not mass produce in advance but its not like you're wasting them infusion, since you can just do it again after a long rest. Honestly this type of move.... you'd only need to do it once.
I certainly understand you can't "infuse on the fly" but a long rest typically its 8 hours. https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/rules-answers-september-2015 While I certainly do understand this isn't a tactic for every fight since it pretty much destroys anything (teleports it to the astral plane) a boss could be taken down with it no problem. I'm not very seasoned but I would think a long rest would occur after a very difficult fight, if not a boss fight. It also says "any creature" so .... Tiamat qualifies I think. It doesn't limit size just within 10 feet.
Additionally a single group of enemies, if they are in a 10 feet (originally thought it was 10 meter, 10 feet is so easy) area, they're gone as well, so it would be a good tactic, but horribly broken, to take care of a bunched up group of enemies or a single unexpectedly hard enemy.
I'm just curious if I'm missing anything since its horribly game breaking especially since the DM can't really control you getting it, like if treasure is awarded. And you get it at level 2. Honestly if I were to DM I'd probably just get rid of that whole fluff rule I quoted at the start, but taking it as written seems like artificer can just cheese the game if they wanted.
Also.. the bag weighs 15 pounds, no matter what, I'm not sure what you're referring to as "tried to throw an open bag" throwing a hammer (Olympic sport) is 16 pounds and are thrown over 50 meters. While that is Olympic levels it isn't unreasonable to throw it 10 meters. Also other factors of throwing a real bag don't apply, i.e. movement of objects within the container. With the Bag of Holding throwing it closed or open, full or empty would have no impact on difficulty. Its the same weight, density, etc. regardless.
As for getting one inside the other. Absolutely doable. Tie with some rope, a quick yank at the point can be enough pull one into the open mouth of the other. Although an easier option would be but something between them, something rubber pressing them together, then pull the item that is between them away. The "tinker" style method of finding a way to do this also fits the Artificer a bit (well more than any other class). The trick is they are thrown together as a single unit, not throwing one then throwing the other to try and and get it inside the other.
Sadly its an instant effect so I can't just do it by hand then Misty Step away
Yes, you can make more Bags of Holdings (BoH hereafter). You learn the infusion, then it says that you choose 'a' magical item to replicate. I'd say that you can only make one item of that choice per time that you learn the infusion, not that you can replace broken ones. If there is more advice clarifying then I'm open to it, but from what I've seen, you learn the infusion and then can only make one item. That means you can set this trap only set this trap once for every two infusions you're willing to sacrifice. Not quite as OP if that's the case, although that's still 74 times if you go to L20, or 24 times to level 10, assuming you go all out.
The image i had from grenade was throwing a BoH, then throwing another inside it at a distance. Doesn't matter if it's heavy - it's still a nigh on impossible shot. A more feasible form would be a trap. I'd set a DC30 or similar for throwing one inside the other
If I felt that this would be a problem, as a DM, I'd argue that it's actually a prototype (as per RAW), and therefore doesn't function the same way as real ones and therefore wouldn't work the same way. Most likely I'd let it work the first time because it's cool , and say that it's pretty rare, and it was just a fluke that it worked this time. Or something. No need to let it ruin the game.
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You could place one Bag of Holding on the ground with the opening facing up, back off and then make a ranged attack roll as a called shot to try to land the second one perfectly inside the opening.
I would set the difficulty of landing this pretty high - it's basically like trying to shoot a basketball into a hoop, except the ball isn't very aerodynamic and the target isn't stable, so will be knocked over by anything other than a totally perfect shot. I'd set the AC at something like 30.
@Kotah I don't think you understand when I said "hammer" I'm referring to the "hammer" in the Olympic sport "Hammer Throw" Its 100% similar to that. It has some type of cord, string, etc. (if not back straps) that would be used to hold it, spin to gain greater angular momentum, then release. I've literally done this with a book bag. I feel like you have not seen the Hammer Throw competition before.....
As for "how to get them to go inside each other" open the bag slightly, press the other up against the opening but it isn't large enough to go inside. Then when released the bag tie can be released, further loosing opening the hole larger and when they land the force of the impact pushes one into the other. I can also put other strategies into play. Have a bag open sitting on the ground like a trap. have another dangling above it from a rope. cut the rope and it falls into the other. As a trap.
"Enemy is conveniently close enough...yet ignoring all of this. " I'm not sure what you're referring to? Wouldn't that apply to ANY combat where something is thrown. It seems you suggest the enemy would avoid any thrown object. By that logic any spell that has an enchantment. So what, they see something and will 100% respond effectively? seems like your battles if you DM would be impossible. What would they be ignoring? at attack? the way you phrase it you act like any ranged attack can be negated because the enemy is aware of it.
There is one SIGNIFICANT FLAW you are making with your argument, suggesting the bag couldn't be properly thrown iRL. Considering there is a literal Olympic sport centered on such an action (near identical weight) it is 100% possible to throw this.
You also don't seem to understand the complexity that can be added to a game and are acting like the idea I'm putting forth just isn't possible because.. "reasons". This is basically a thrown version of the Arrow of Ultimate Destruction just using two bags instead of a portable hole and a bag.
Using Hammer Throw technique (real world) you can easily throw that bad 20+ meters (world record is 87 meters) That's 65 feet. If you want to use standard ranged mechanics of 20/60 for thrown items it fits well in that range.
@Sanvael Yeah, I looked into maybe using a mage hand to carry the other bag, but its weight is too high for that. Although, A Command / Dominate could result in telling a target to pick up one bag and put it into the open one. That should be possible, probably 100% chance to succeed too (if the creature is charmed). DM could negate this by saying the creature would know it would kill them and won't do it. A bit of a hand wave since creature would need to do an insight or history check first to "know" what will happen if they combine them.
Another option is just open one bag on the ground, then drop the other and Misty Step away. Although the drop is fast, Misty Step is rated as instant so even if the drop takes 1 second it long enough for you to get out of range.
The problem with your first point is that such a rule would mean that any broken infusion item could never be made again and you'd have an Artificer with 0 infusion options if their equipment was broken. I don't see anywhere in the rules that you can only infuse 1 item and once its been done its consumed for good. My impression is that you can only have 6 (8) active infusions at a given time. So if one is deactivated or destroyed you can infuse another item. After a Long Rest.
To suggest that if the item is broken you can't use that infusion again unless you replace it as you level is very debilitating. The rules don't suggest this at all. "Whenever you finish a long rest, you can touch a nonmagical object and imbue it with one of your artificer infusions, turning it into a magic item." The infusion is not "consumed" the only reason you can't make unlimited number of replicate magical items is because of the total infused item limit. Thus, you can only have 2 infusions ACTIVE at a given time. The items being destroyed deactivates the infusions thus allowing for additional infusions of the KNOWN infusions to be used. Since the Replicate Bag is still KNOWN it can be used again on more bags after the long rest. Thus you can have unlimited, as long as there are long rests in-between.
Its an easy fix from a DM perspective, just make that part of the errata not true / not valid in the campaign. Honestly, it causes more issues anyways, I don't know why WotC puts it in there.
It should be mentioned that TOTAL Precision, i.e. getting it to the target isn't important imo. Since it has a 10 foot radius. Anyone with average strength (10?) in dnd should be able to throw such an object 10 feet and get in relative range.
Some are talking about throwing a bag into another bag. That isn't what I'm suggesting. I suppose I do need to correct myself that the contraption would be 30 pounds, not 15 since it's 2 bags. But this is still possible. With average Hammer Throw competition having a record of over 80 meters (260 ft) If we double the weight from 15 to 30, I'd say we could do 25% of the distance. 20 meters. Then 25% of that if we attribute it to a normal person. 5 meters, that's still 16 feet.
On the matter of making 2 bags of holding I would rule no as the following rule states.
Unless an infusion’s description says otherwise, you can’t learn an infusion more than once.
I would rule that while the Replicate magic item infusion states you can learn it multiple times I consider the infusion "Replicate Magic Item: Bag of Holding" to not be repeatable itself but you could replicate a Portable Hole and a bag of Holding ie
Replicate Magic Item: Bag of Holding
Replicate Magic Item: Portable Hole
I do not allow specifically replicating any particular magic item more the once,
On the matter of making 2 bags of holding I would rule no as the following rule states.
Unless an infusion’s description says otherwise, you can’t learn an infusion more than once.
I would rule that while the Replicate magic item infusion states you can learn it multiple times I consider the infusion "Replicate Magic Item: Bag of Holding" to not be repeatable itself but you could replicate a Portable Hole and a bag of Holding ie
Replicate Magic Item: Bag of Holding
Replicate Magic Item: Portable Hole
I do not allow specifically replicating any particular magic item more the once,
Honestly I think this trick would be more easily accomplished if someone set up a portable hole, backs a safe distance and toss the BoH into it. It just seems more viable than macguyvering two bags of holding for one to fall into the other after a thrown distance. It's never going to be a "grenade," not that the proposed innovation was actually performing like a grenade in the first place, but a toss and catastrophic effect upon impact device. But if players want to wreck some otherwise nifty utility devices for what could well be merely a deferred confrontation, sure. I mean, there are ways back from the Astral plane back to the prime material plane. As certain power levels, the target may actually have a better understanding of planar mechanics that the PC. Maybe the bad guy returns with a Githyanki war band hitherto unaware of your world as a place rife for plunder. Thanks, MacGuyver.
I'd more likely use the extra dimensional space inside extra dimensional space as a "if all else fails, emergency extraction" kit, having of course done my extraplanar diligence and developed contacts in the Astral realms who may assist me if I had to emergency gate in.
So at best, we got a spectacular means to deal with at the most relatively mundane threats. Everything else is sort of a "pause" button.
See, I would almost be interested in letting my players do something like this and then have to deal with the fallout of cities getting wiped off the face of existence left and right as this technique proliferates and just holes in reality making the astral plane and the prime material plane slowly merging.
On the matter of making 2 bags of holding I would rule no as the following rule states.
Unless an infusion’s description says otherwise, you can’t learn an infusion more than once.
I would rule that while the Replicate magic item infusion states you can learn it multiple times I consider the infusion "Replicate Magic Item: Bag of Holding" to not be repeatable itself but you could replicate a Portable Hole and a bag of Holding ie
Replicate Magic Item: Bag of Holding
Replicate Magic Item: Portable Hole
I do not allow specifically replicating any particular magic item more the once,
To make things even more explicit I treat (and refer to) them as “Replicate Bag of Holding,” and “Replicate Portable Hole.”
@Jacqsynn I get your point since the bag + hole is a common discussion. The problem is, I don't believe the Portable Hole can be made with Rrelicate Magic Item. The Replicate Item has a table which doesn't include it and the "catch all" is "Alternatively, you can choose the magic item from among the common magic items in the game, not including potions or scrolls." which specifically mentions "Common" and the Portable Hole is Rare. While the Bag of Holding is also not common (uncommon) it is listed in the table.
That being said yeah, throwing a 15 lb bag into a 6 foot wide hole would be easy by anyone's standards. Alternatively throwing the hole at a placed bag may also be comparatively easy.
I think your rule part of not being able to have the same item be replicated twice is a decent rule, although it doesn't negate 2 artificers.
That and your replicated magic item more than once being said, would be a house rule. Depending on how you mean it, its pretty bogus too. If you mean you make a single bag of holding and you can NEVER make another, even if that one is lost or destroyed. Does completely obliterate that infusion slot. Kind a BS move and would likely have people just not take that infusion at all.
@ Greenstone_walker IRL, Do your bags magically close when you throw them? I've never thrown a bag and it closes itself. I have had thrown bags open, spilling their contents everywhere.
I'm not sure how this bag is shaped, although it likely can be any shame since we're infusing an existing non-magic container. If we think of it as something with a drawstring, how I imagine it, it would 100% not close when thrown, as you have to pull the strong closed to do so. If its a regular backpack, again, its open unless zipped or top folded over, the top folded over could happen when thrown but not secured.
See, I would almost be interested in letting my players do something like this and then have to deal with the fallout of cities getting wiped off the face of existence left and right as this technique proliferates and just holes in reality making the astral plane and the prime material plane slowly merging.
Sadly the effect, as written, wouldn't work like that since it stated " The gate then closes." as part of the errata. Definitely would be interesting. I also find the text can result in some serious BS if the DM wants it. i.e. a team member gets a portable hole and uses it so the party can get through a pass. Another member forgets that this rule exists and has a bag of holding. The moment they walk in the entire party is sucked into the Astral Plane and dies. This is the result of an "oppsie, I forgot I can't walk in there with this bag.
On the matter of making 2 bags of holding I would rule no as the following rule states.
Unless an infusion’s description says otherwise, you can’t learn an infusion more than once.
I would rule that while the Replicate magic item infusion states you can learn it multiple times I consider the infusion "Replicate Magic Item: Bag of Holding" to not be repeatable itself but you could replicate a Portable Hole and a bag of Holding ie
Replicate Magic Item: Bag of Holding
Replicate Magic Item: Portable Hole
I do not allow specifically replicating any particular magic item more the once,
Honestly I think this trick would be more easily accomplished if someone set up a portable hole, backs a safe distance and toss the BoH into it. It just seems more viable than macguyvering two bags of holding for one to fall into the other after a thrown distance. It's never going to be a "grenade," not that the proposed innovation was actually performing like a grenade in the first place, but a toss and catastrophic effect upon impact device. But if players want to wreck some otherwise nifty utility devices for what could well be merely a deferred confrontation, sure. I mean, there are ways back from the Astral plane back to the prime material plane. As certain power levels, the target may actually have a better understanding of planar mechanics that the PC. Maybe the bad guy returns with a Githyanki war band hitherto unaware of your world as a place rife for plunder. Thanks, MacGuyver.
I'd more likely use the extra dimensional space inside extra dimensional space as a "if all else fails, emergency extraction" kit, having of course done my extraplanar diligence and developed contacts in the Astral realms who may assist me if I had to emergency gate in.
So at best, we got a spectacular means to deal with at the most relatively mundane threats. Everything else is sort of a "pause" button.
I definitely agree, by only reason for asking about two BoH specifically is because those can be made by Artificers, and at level 2. Portable Holes aren't listed as an option. So a DM would have to make an exception, which would mean they are asking for this combination to be constantly used.
On the matter of making 2 bags of holding I would rule no as the following rule states.
Unless an infusion’s description says otherwise, you can’t learn an infusion more than once.
I would rule that while the Replicate magic item infusion states you can learn it multiple times I consider the infusion "Replicate Magic Item: Bag of Holding" to not be repeatable itself but you could replicate a Portable Hole and a bag of Holding ie
Replicate Magic Item: Bag of Holding
Replicate Magic Item: Portable Hole
I do not allow specifically replicating any particular magic item more the once,
But this infusion does say: "You can learn this infusion multiple times; each time you do so, choose a magic item that you can make with it," Notice how it also doesn't say choose a DIFFERENT magic item. So there is no restriction in doing it multiple times. So you don't even need to learn it more than once. Additionally it isn't LEARNING multiple times. You only have to learn it once. Then you can use it up to the number of Infusions you have. (2 at level 2) There seems to be a misunderstanding in this. Once you learn an infusion you can use it as much as you want, as long as you only sufficient Infusions. Also Infusions still count if you hand it to someone else. I.e. you can give everyone in your party a BoH (level 10, so 4). Similarly you can learn Enhance Weapon and infuse 3 items with +1 (+2) defense. You can't learn it twice but the infusions appear similar to Spell Slots, You have a known spell and you can cast it the number of times equal to your spell slot. So you can know a single Infusion and use it up to your total infusion number (2-8). For example, I don't believe you need to learn Enhance Defense multiple times to apply it to Armor, Boots and Gloves. (Armorer) It just takes up 3 "slots" of Infused items (from a limit of 6/8) when you do it.
As a result it is definitely possible to use get the two bags of holdings. with AS Written rules. If you want to restrict it, I'd be careful how you do this since how you apply it would really wreck the Artificer. I mean saying you can't have multiple active infusions of the same item is kinda ruining the class.
I'm a bit curious too, the infusion skill says "An infusion works on only certain kinds of objects, as specified in the infusion's description." but there are no object specified in the tables for Replicate item. The assumption is they are the same type, i.e. a non-magical bag. But I suppose whatever it is takes the form of the item, so even if you infuse a smaller bag it changes into the size for the Bag of Holding regardless (or it only works on a bag that is the same size).
I was able to find the line showing you can end infusions after a long rest. If you try to exceed your maximum number of infusions, the oldest infusion ends, and then the new infusion applies. So you'd need to cycle infusions but its possible to just replace items with lost infusions.
I also thought this could be a cool evil trick to make something of value through replicate Magic Item and then sell it. Eventually that infusion would cycle off. I'd be interesting to be like a forger of magical items, except the items are actually real, they just don't stay that way. Consequences could happen i.e. people start coming for you. It reminds me of a Full Metal Alchemist event where he turned a bunch of leaves into gold but isn't allowed so they all eventually reverted so he wouldn't get in trouble.
Additionally it isn't LEARNING multiple times. You only have to learn it once. Then you can use it up to the number of Infusions you have. (2 at level 2) There seems to be a misunderstanding in this. Once you learn an infusion you can use it as much as you want, as long as you only sufficient Infusions. Also Infusions still count if you hand it to someone else. I.e. you can give everyone in your party a BoH (level 10, so 4). Similarly you can learn Enhance Weapon and infuse 3 items with +1 (+2) defense. You can't learn it twice but the infusions appear similar to Spell Slots, You have a known spell and you can cast it the number of times equal to your spell slot. So you can know a single Infusion and use it up to your total infusion number (2-8). For example, I don't believe you need to learn Enhance Defense multiple times to apply it to Armor, Boots and Gloves. (Armorer) It just takes up 3 "slots" of Infused items (from a limit of 6/8) when you do it.
You've missed the part of the infusion rules that say:
You must touch each of the objects, and each of your infusions can be in only one object at a time. Moreover, no object can bear more than one of your infusions at a time.
So you can only have one Enhanced Weapon and one Enhanced Defense item.
Additionally it isn't LEARNING multiple times. You only have to learn it once. Then you can use it up to the number of Infusions you have. (2 at level 2) There seems to be a misunderstanding in this. Once you learn an infusion you can use it as much as you want, as long as you only sufficient Infusions. Also Infusions still count if you hand it to someone else. I.e. you can give everyone in your party a BoH (level 10, so 4). Similarly you can learn Enhance Weapon and infuse 3 items with +1 (+2) defense. You can't learn it twice but the infusions appear similar to Spell Slots, You have a known spell and you can cast it the number of times equal to your spell slot. So you can know a single Infusion and use it up to your total infusion number (2-8). For example, I don't believe you need to learn Enhance Defense multiple times to apply it to Armor, Boots and Gloves. (Armorer) It just takes up 3 "slots" of Infused items (from a limit of 6/8) when you do it.
You've missed the part of the infusion rules that say:
You must touch each of the objects, and each of your infusions can be in only one object at a time. Moreover, no object can bear more than one of your infusions at a time.
So you can only have one Enhanced Weapon and one Enhanced Defense item.
So you'd have to learn each one, multiple times. So 2 instances of Replicate Item Bag of Holding would be necessary our would it be you can only learn it once and thus would need a real other bag of holding (or similar) item to perform the suggested act?
Or is learning only possible once and therefore use is only once? So I couldn't even give 2 headbands of intelligence to two party members if I learn it twice? This also raises the question of Resistant Armor. I would only be able to use that once, even if I use a different element, correct? Also how does Armor Modification work. It appears as though I can infuse different parts of the armor "armor (the chest piece), boots, helmet" If the armor is Magic I can't do this to any of it? What if I had regular boots, separate from the armor (non-magic boots) could I infuse them with something? Can I use them to infuse a "suit of armor" option? Its a bit confusing since That ability it only for Armorers and there are infusions that are boots and helmet only as well. So would boots count as suit of armor (as it mentions it as part of the armor) or would they be relegated to ONLY the boot and ONLY the helmet option. Its definitely a lack of options when Boots only get one and Helmet only get one. Since most others say "suit of armor"
Bag of Holding, typo
Could an Artificer use two infusions to make two of these then use them as a grenade to trigger the rift?
"Placing a bag of holding inside an extradimensional space created by a Heward's Handy Haversack, Portable Hole, or similar item instantly destroys both items and opens a gate to the Astral Plane. The gate originates where the one item was placed inside the other. Any creature within 10 feet of the gate is sucked through it to a random location on the Astral Plane. The gate then closes. The gate is one-way only and can't be reopened."
Although it doesn't say another Bag of Holding, it would fall under "similar item"
Then, can they just make more and repeat this process? If an infused item is destroyed the Artificer can just infuse another item (matching qualifications) i.e. if my Enhanced Weapon Club broke I can just get another club and infuse Enhanced Weapon on it, yeah?
For repeating would you have to just redo the infusion on another item or would you need to relearn the infusion? Which would be any level gained.
I was surprised to see the Bag of Holding on the list of immediate options.
Not mass produce in advance but its not like you're wasting them infusion, since you can just do it again after a long rest. Honestly this type of move.... you'd only need to do it once.
I certainly understand you can't "infuse on the fly" but a long rest typically its 8 hours. https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/rules-answers-september-2015
While I certainly do understand this isn't a tactic for every fight since it pretty much destroys anything (teleports it to the astral plane) a boss could be taken down with it no problem. I'm not very seasoned but I would think a long rest would occur after a very difficult fight, if not a boss fight. It also says "any creature" so .... Tiamat qualifies I think. It doesn't limit size just within 10 feet.
Additionally a single group of enemies, if they are in a 10 feet (originally thought it was 10 meter, 10 feet is so easy) area, they're gone as well, so it would be a good tactic, but horribly broken, to take care of a bunched up group of enemies or a single unexpectedly hard enemy.
I'm just curious if I'm missing anything since its horribly game breaking especially since the DM can't really control you getting it, like if treasure is awarded. And you get it at level 2. Honestly if I were to DM I'd probably just get rid of that whole fluff rule I quoted at the start, but taking it as written seems like artificer can just cheese the game if they wanted.
Also.. the bag weighs 15 pounds, no matter what, I'm not sure what you're referring to as "tried to throw an open bag" throwing a hammer (Olympic sport) is 16 pounds and are thrown over 50 meters. While that is Olympic levels it isn't unreasonable to throw it 10 meters. Also other factors of throwing a real bag don't apply, i.e. movement of objects within the container. With the Bag of Holding throwing it closed or open, full or empty would have no impact on difficulty. Its the same weight, density, etc. regardless.
As for getting one inside the other. Absolutely doable. Tie with some rope, a quick yank at the point can be enough pull one into the open mouth of the other. Although an easier option would be but something between them, something rubber pressing them together, then pull the item that is between them away. The "tinker" style method of finding a way to do this also fits the Artificer a bit (well more than any other class). The trick is they are thrown together as a single unit, not throwing one then throwing the other to try and and get it inside the other.
Sadly its an instant effect so I can't just do it by hand then Misty Step away
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You could place one Bag of Holding on the ground with the opening facing up, back off and then make a ranged attack roll as a called shot to try to land the second one perfectly inside the opening.
I would set the difficulty of landing this pretty high - it's basically like trying to shoot a basketball into a hoop, except the ball isn't very aerodynamic and the target isn't stable, so will be knocked over by anything other than a totally perfect shot. I'd set the AC at something like 30.
@Kotah
I don't think you understand when I said "hammer" I'm referring to the "hammer" in the Olympic sport "Hammer Throw" Its 100% similar to that. It has some type of cord, string, etc. (if not back straps) that would be used to hold it, spin to gain greater angular momentum, then release. I've literally done this with a book bag. I feel like you have not seen the Hammer Throw competition before.....
As for "how to get them to go inside each other" open the bag slightly, press the other up against the opening but it isn't large enough to go inside. Then when released the bag tie can be released, further loosing opening the hole larger and when they land the force of the impact pushes one into the other.
I can also put other strategies into play. Have a bag open sitting on the ground like a trap. have another dangling above it from a rope. cut the rope and it falls into the other. As a trap.
"Enemy is conveniently close enough...yet ignoring all of this. " I'm not sure what you're referring to? Wouldn't that apply to ANY combat where something is thrown. It seems you suggest the enemy would avoid any thrown object. By that logic any spell that has an enchantment. So what, they see something and will 100% respond effectively? seems like your battles if you DM would be impossible. What would they be ignoring? at attack? the way you phrase it you act like any ranged attack can be negated because the enemy is aware of it.
There is one SIGNIFICANT FLAW you are making with your argument, suggesting the bag couldn't be properly thrown iRL. Considering there is a literal Olympic sport centered on such an action (near identical weight) it is 100% possible to throw this.
You also don't seem to understand the complexity that can be added to a game and are acting like the idea I'm putting forth just isn't possible because.. "reasons". This is basically a thrown version of the Arrow of Ultimate Destruction just using two bags instead of a portable hole and a bag.
Using Hammer Throw technique (real world) you can easily throw that bad 20+ meters (world record is 87 meters) That's 65 feet. If you want to use standard ranged mechanics of 20/60 for thrown items it fits well in that range.
@Sanvael
Yeah, I looked into maybe using a mage hand to carry the other bag, but its weight is too high for that. Although, A Command / Dominate could result in telling a target to pick up one bag and put it into the open one. That should be possible, probably 100% chance to succeed too (if the creature is charmed). DM could negate this by saying the creature would know it would kill them and won't do it. A bit of a hand wave since creature would need to do an insight or history check first to "know" what will happen if they combine them.
Another option is just open one bag on the ground, then drop the other and Misty Step away. Although the drop is fast, Misty Step is rated as instant so even if the drop takes 1 second it long enough for you to get out of range.
@Linklite
The problem with your first point is that such a rule would mean that any broken infusion item could never be made again and you'd have an Artificer with 0 infusion options if their equipment was broken. I don't see anywhere in the rules that you can only infuse 1 item and once its been done its consumed for good. My impression is that you can only have 6 (8) active infusions at a given time. So if one is deactivated or destroyed you can infuse another item. After a Long Rest.
To suggest that if the item is broken you can't use that infusion again unless you replace it as you level is very debilitating. The rules don't suggest this at all.
"Whenever you finish a long rest, you can touch a nonmagical object and imbue it with one of your artificer infusions, turning it into a magic item." The infusion is not "consumed" the only reason you can't make unlimited number of replicate magical items is because of the total infused item limit. Thus, you can only have 2 infusions ACTIVE at a given time. The items being destroyed deactivates the infusions thus allowing for additional infusions of the KNOWN infusions to be used. Since the Replicate Bag is still KNOWN it can be used again on more bags after the long rest. Thus you can have unlimited, as long as there are long rests in-between.
Its an easy fix from a DM perspective, just make that part of the errata not true / not valid in the campaign. Honestly, it causes more issues anyways, I don't know why WotC puts it in there.
It should be mentioned that TOTAL Precision, i.e. getting it to the target isn't important imo. Since it has a 10 foot radius. Anyone with average strength (10?) in dnd should be able to throw such an object 10 feet and get in relative range.
Some are talking about throwing a bag into another bag. That isn't what I'm suggesting. I suppose I do need to correct myself that the contraption would be 30 pounds, not 15 since it's 2 bags. But this is still possible. With average Hammer Throw competition having a record of over 80 meters (260 ft) If we double the weight from 15 to 30, I'd say we could do 25% of the distance. 20 meters. Then 25% of that if we attribute it to a normal person. 5 meters, that's still 16 feet.
On the matter of making 2 bags of holding I would rule no as the following rule states.
Unless an infusion’s description says otherwise, you can’t learn an infusion more than once.
I would rule that while the Replicate magic item infusion states you can learn it multiple times I consider the infusion "Replicate Magic Item: Bag of Holding" to not be repeatable itself but you could replicate a Portable Hole and a bag of Holding ie
Replicate Magic Item: Bag of Holding
Replicate Magic Item: Portable Hole
I do not allow specifically replicating any particular magic item more the once,
How do you throw a satchel and ensure that the opening stays open?
Honestly I think this trick would be more easily accomplished if someone set up a portable hole, backs a safe distance and toss the BoH into it. It just seems more viable than macguyvering two bags of holding for one to fall into the other after a thrown distance. It's never going to be a "grenade," not that the proposed innovation was actually performing like a grenade in the first place, but a toss and catastrophic effect upon impact device. But if players want to wreck some otherwise nifty utility devices for what could well be merely a deferred confrontation, sure. I mean, there are ways back from the Astral plane back to the prime material plane. As certain power levels, the target may actually have a better understanding of planar mechanics that the PC. Maybe the bad guy returns with a Githyanki war band hitherto unaware of your world as a place rife for plunder. Thanks, MacGuyver.
I'd more likely use the extra dimensional space inside extra dimensional space as a "if all else fails, emergency extraction" kit, having of course done my extraplanar diligence and developed contacts in the Astral realms who may assist me if I had to emergency gate in.
So at best, we got a spectacular means to deal with at the most relatively mundane threats. Everything else is sort of a "pause" button.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
See, I would almost be interested in letting my players do something like this and then have to deal with the fallout of cities getting wiped off the face of existence left and right as this technique proliferates and just holes in reality making the astral plane and the prime material plane slowly merging.
To make things even more explicit I treat (and refer to) them as “Replicate Bag of Holding,” and “Replicate Portable Hole.”
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@Jacqsynn
I get your point since the bag + hole is a common discussion. The problem is, I don't believe the Portable Hole can be made with Rrelicate Magic Item.
The Replicate Item has a table which doesn't include it and the "catch all" is "Alternatively, you can choose the magic item from among the common magic items in the game, not including potions or scrolls." which specifically mentions "Common" and the Portable Hole is Rare. While the Bag of Holding is also not common (uncommon) it is listed in the table.
That being said yeah, throwing a 15 lb bag into a 6 foot wide hole would be easy by anyone's standards. Alternatively throwing the hole at a placed bag may also be comparatively easy.
I think your rule part of not being able to have the same item be replicated twice is a decent rule, although it doesn't negate 2 artificers.
That and your replicated magic item more than once being said, would be a house rule. Depending on how you mean it, its pretty bogus too. If you mean you make a single bag of holding and you can NEVER make another, even if that one is lost or destroyed. Does completely obliterate that infusion slot. Kind a BS move and would likely have people just not take that infusion at all.
@ Greenstone_walker
IRL, Do your bags magically close when you throw them? I've never thrown a bag and it closes itself. I have had thrown bags open, spilling their contents everywhere.
I'm not sure how this bag is shaped, although it likely can be any shame since we're infusing an existing non-magic container.
If we think of it as something with a drawstring, how I imagine it, it would 100% not close when thrown, as you have to pull the strong closed to do so.
If its a regular backpack, again, its open unless zipped or top folded over, the top folded over could happen when thrown but not secured.
Sadly the effect, as written, wouldn't work like that since it stated " The gate then closes." as part of the errata.
Definitely would be interesting. I also find the text can result in some serious BS if the DM wants it.
i.e. a team member gets a portable hole and uses it so the party can get through a pass. Another member forgets that this rule exists and has a bag of holding. The moment they walk in the entire party is sucked into the Astral Plane and dies. This is the result of an "oppsie, I forgot I can't walk in there with this bag.
I definitely agree, by only reason for asking about two BoH specifically is because those can be made by Artificers, and at level 2. Portable Holes aren't listed as an option. So a DM would have to make an exception, which would mean they are asking for this combination to be constantly used.
But this infusion does say: "You can learn this infusion multiple times; each time you do so, choose a magic item that you can make with it,"
Notice how it also doesn't say choose a DIFFERENT magic item. So there is no restriction in doing it multiple times. So you don't even need to learn it more than once.
Additionally it isn't LEARNING multiple times. You only have to learn it once. Then you can use it up to the number of Infusions you have. (2 at level 2)
There seems to be a misunderstanding in this. Once you learn an infusion you can use it as much as you want, as long as you only sufficient Infusions. Also Infusions still count if you hand it to someone else. I.e. you can give everyone in your party a BoH (level 10, so 4).
Similarly you can learn Enhance Weapon and infuse 3 items with +1 (+2) defense. You can't learn it twice but the infusions appear similar to Spell Slots, You have a known spell and you can cast it the number of times equal to your spell slot. So you can know a single Infusion and use it up to your total infusion number (2-8).
For example, I don't believe you need to learn Enhance Defense multiple times to apply it to Armor, Boots and Gloves. (Armorer) It just takes up 3 "slots" of Infused items (from a limit of 6/8) when you do it.
As a result it is definitely possible to use get the two bags of holdings. with AS Written rules.
If you want to restrict it, I'd be careful how you do this since how you apply it would really wreck the Artificer. I mean saying you can't have multiple active infusions of the same item is kinda ruining the class.
I'm a bit curious too, the infusion skill says "An infusion works on only certain kinds of objects, as specified in the infusion's description." but there are no object specified in the tables for Replicate item. The assumption is they are the same type, i.e. a non-magical bag. But I suppose whatever it is takes the form of the item, so even if you infuse a smaller bag it changes into the size for the Bag of Holding regardless (or it only works on a bag that is the same size).
I was able to find the line showing you can end infusions after a long rest. If you try to exceed your maximum number of infusions, the oldest infusion ends, and then the new infusion applies. So you'd need to cycle infusions but its possible to just replace items with lost infusions.
I also thought this could be a cool evil trick to make something of value through replicate Magic Item and then sell it. Eventually that infusion would cycle off. I'd be interesting to be like a forger of magical items, except the items are actually real, they just don't stay that way. Consequences could happen i.e. people start coming for you. It reminds me of a Full Metal Alchemist event where he turned a bunch of leaves into gold but isn't allowed so they all eventually reverted so he wouldn't get in trouble.
You've missed the part of the infusion rules that say:
So you can only have one Enhanced Weapon and one Enhanced Defense item.
So you'd have to learn each one, multiple times. So 2 instances of Replicate Item Bag of Holding would be necessary our would it be you can only learn it once and thus would need a real other bag of holding (or similar) item to perform the suggested act?
Or is learning only possible once and therefore use is only once?
So I couldn't even give 2 headbands of intelligence to two party members if I learn it twice?
This also raises the question of Resistant Armor. I would only be able to use that once, even if I use a different element, correct?
Also how does Armor Modification work. It appears as though I can infuse different parts of the armor "armor (the chest piece), boots, helmet" If the armor is Magic I can't do this to any of it? What if I had regular boots, separate from the armor (non-magic boots) could I infuse them with something? Can I use them to infuse a "suit of armor" option?
Its a bit confusing since That ability it only for Armorers and there are infusions that are boots and helmet only as well. So would boots count as suit of armor (as it mentions it as part of the armor) or would they be relegated to ONLY the boot and ONLY the helmet option.
Its definitely a lack of options when Boots only get one and Helmet only get one. Since most others say "suit of armor"