The main problem with comparisons to bane/bless is that those spells require your action, as opposed to being a reaction. If a character normally has a 60% chance of success on an attack, bless increases that to 72.5%, so it's making that character about 20% more effective. Spending an action to make other people's actions better is worthwhile once the other people have gained one action (on average), which with three targets is just under two rounds. Barbs is, instead, a reaction.
Forcing a reroll on a save, after rolling, is very very strong; it basically doubles the power of all 'save or suck' spells (though it doesn't interact with legendary resistance; using legendary resistance is not succeeding on a d20 roll). Using it as an attack reroll is less relevant because most hard hitting stuff involves multiattack and the reroll probably hits anyway. If you delete the ability to force a reroll on a save the spell would be fine.
I'm not reading two pages worth of discussion, but THANK YOU for stating the obvious about silvery barbs. It's merely because people look and go "Hey, that's a better shield!" (As you said, it's really not), or "Hey, that's a better bless!" (Now that it is definitely not, Bless is broken), or even "Hey, that's a better fortune's favor!" (Which it definitely is, as almost all existing advantage spells are bad) that they think barbs is broken. I merely see it as less broken than something like vicious mockery, which, as a cantrip, grants disadvantage and deals damage, just taking a bit longer to use and all that than Barbs. There is no problem with barbs to my knowledge except Misconception.
Your missing the big thing about Barbs, its not that it's better than shield (because it's not always), and vicious mockery doesn't compare, why? because Silvery barbs is a reaction.
Shield is only of use if your getting hit, vicious mockery is an action. Silvery barbs is useful all the time, and once we get into the higher levels 1st lvl spells are rarely worth casting. But burning my reaction to deny a die roll and grant advantage to a friend? Holy crap that is ALWAYS useful and that is why the spell is considered OP. The fact that 4 times a day we can deny a die roll, advantage a teamates die roll and that has NO bearing on what we do in our turn with the rest of our spells? (edit: hell actually use arcane recovery do it up to 8 times a day)
If the bard wants to drop vicious mockery he's not doing anything else on his turn, the target also gets a save. Barbs just flat out says "nope"
Also this whole bane/bless thing? again that falls into the realm of its an action and its concentration. So the cleric is down a turn and his concentration is used. Barbs again.. reaction.. no concentration and guess what? It works WITH bane and bless making it even better!
D4 is good I agree but math wise DIS is better with higher DCs so my major point was the spell gets better and better with progression while a flat d4 regresses with higher saves.
Bless is a great spell and so is bane.... In fact you can use bane with silvery barbs to make it even more effective.
Let me start by asking for some patience. I am going to try using the tooltips for the very first time. If they turn out wrong, I apologize and will try to edit before the mess is noticed.
I would agree that advantage/disadvantage is better against single targets, but Bane and Bless do not have single target limitations. They start at 3 targets each, and they can be up-cast to affect additional targets. In the two years I have played a cleric, these are perhaps my most used combat spells. I have not yet seen Bane fail entirely and it was so good, I started using it on my bard as well. Going back to my previous comment, attacks and saves do not succeed or fail by much after modifiers. Having your entire party adding an average of +2 to every attack and save they make, or debuffing almost every enemy on the field every turn for the entire battle is huge. I do make the concession that against a single target, there is no competition; Silvery Barbs wins out with ease. If however, we are using actual common, medium difficulty battle scenarios with 4-6 targets, Silvery Barbs cannot compete. If Bane only successfully debuffs half the targets, it has outpaced Silvery Barbs because those targets are likely debuffed for the entire battle - attacks and saves.
I almost feel like Silvery Barbs is a limited Bane + Bless two punch. You get an effective -5 for an enemy roll you already know was going to succeed (Bane) + an effective +5 for your ally's next roll (Bless). The number of targets is smaller (two creatures instead of three) and it will only affect one roll each, but silvery barbs also doesn't eat up concentration like Bane and Bless. Silvery Barbs also applies to ability checks in addition to attack rolls and saving throws, which means it can also act on things like grapples, shoves, or spellcasting ability checks made as part of something like Dispel Magic.
The limitations are more than made up for (imo) by the fact that it has more versatility, can be cast as a reaction, and does not interrupt any other spell you might be concentrating on.
Another thing of note when comparing Bless/Bane to this spell. Neither of those spells are usually available to Sorcerers and Wizards in the first place, so giving them a quasi-Bane/Bless spell gives them a buff/debuff potential that now overlaps with clerics. I wont go so far as to say that that is a problem, but it is an interesting observation that can be made as part of the comparison.
I do agree that Bane and Bless having concentration does limit the power of these spells. However, I have played my forge cleric for two years and frankly, there really was not a lot of need for me to manage my concentration economy. Heat Metal never saw use past the first few levels (played DiA... so yeah), if you want to throw down Hold Person, you are likely waiting for it to be most useful, like outside of combat or when you have downed most of the targets and need to stop a fleeing creature. I never personally used Silence in combat because the target can just step outside of the AoE and cast. Once we were higher level and wisdom saves became more common, I did start using Beacon of Hope a lot more, but you are taking a gamble on that this will be necessary, while even a +1 to attacks is always useful. This also comes down to play style and my forge cleric was always in the thick of it; I had a different focus than worrying about concentration. With Warcaster and absolutely stacked constitution, it was not an issue I really ever had to worry about. In my experience though, when you are forced into situations that make you choose between concentrations, the conditions of the battle have shifted so dramatically, that the spell you are dropping is no longer serving its purpose well and the change is necessary. On the note of competing concentration, I feel that point supports my earlier point on competing reaction spells, such as Absorb Elements, Counterspell, and Shield. Using Silvery Barbs means you will not be using any of those for the rest of the turn and these spells arguably are far more important to keep in reserve in many if not most cases.
I do not believe that ability checks are a huge deal. How often does that really come up in actual games? In the campaign with my bard, I had a Rune Knight Fighter on the team, but this spell would have no benefit in aiding him in this grapples, as he already had the means to give himself advantage on every strength check; it was his entire focus and he did not even carry a weapon. Consider this point though - are you really, as a wizard, going to use the precious and finite reaction to boost the chances of a grapple succeeding? Even if a battle was nearing its end, I would be extremely reluctant to remove from the table the opportunity to use a Counterspell to help my martial teammate succeed on a grapple. Imagine the humiliation at burning your reaction to help your barbarian succeed on their grapple, only to have the BBEG blink out of the fight so they can better prepare to kill you later.
I would like to add though, that this discussion is not about whether Silvery Barbs is too powerful for a Bard, Sorcerer, or Wizard, but as a first level spell. I feel like trying to exclude Bane or Bless from the discussion simply because they are not available to most of these classes is kind of moving the goalposts.
I don't think anybody's sleeping on Bane or Bless. They are extremely popular spells for a reason. It's just that disadvantage and advantage gets translated into a -5 or +5 by the rules for a reason. It's easily better than the best roll you can get with Bane or Bless.
Also important to note it's Bane OR Bless as both require concentration while Silvery Barbs gives both. Sure concentration allows you to apply it multiple turns (however also blocks you from using other concentration spells during that time) but affecting one or two key rolls is much more valuable than affecting a few rolls that would've been inconvenient otherwise but aren't necessarily combat changing. Bane and Bless are super good, but not as potentially devastating as Silvery Barbs.
Oh, I agree with you on the benefits of advantage/disadvantage. I do not believe that Bane and Bless are given a fair shake in comparison to Silvery Barbs for typical combat scenarios though. I obviously cannot speak for everyone, but in all the battles I have played, single target battles are few and far between. I might use Silvery Barbs against the boss during a critical juncture in a particularly heated battle if I know they do not have any spells that can cause an instant sad day for the party, but I am also very likely to be leaning into a Bane or Bless depending on my class for most battles.
Bane or Bless, yes this is true, but there is a specific reason for this and that is because they are so gosh darn powerful when used effectively. Buffing your entire party or debuffing potentially the entire enemy line for the entire combat is extremely powerful and I will take either of those any day over Fireball. For the sake of not spending too much time on my already overly-long post, I encourage you to see my comment higher up that addresses concentration economy and how that, in my experience, was not really a big deal.
I, however, would strongly (and respectfully) disagree with you on your comment that one or two key rolls is much more valuable than affecting every roll from a target. Stopping a target from downing a fellow PC is big, but if you have a healer, 5e is almost laughably forgiving about death after level 1 and it does not take long for enemies to start swinging their meaty paws around with multiattack. Giving disadvantage on a saving throw is also huge, and may even be the shinning moment of a major battle, but causing every add (or even half) to be unable to hit your friends is definitely more valuable, even if it does not blow anyone's hair back. Hits chip away at hit points and every PC has a limited number of them. If your party debuffer is not doing their job, then the healer has to play catch up, and a difficult battle is meant to strain the healer already. If your party has your healer doing the debuffing as well, then you certainly are going to be making some challenging choices in a difficult battle when your bard, sorcerer, or wizard has to risk trading imposing disadvantage for any of the three other major spells previously discussed that truthfully, they desperately need available in most difficult or deadly battles.
Why is it that everyone here ignores the fact that concentration doesn't make spells weak, even when I illustrated the reasons why bless is just as good as silvery barbs and why concentration is fine? Why do people also insist on the "reaction" vs the action? This feels like cherry picking, because it ignores bless affects so many more creatures, for a longer time, and can be used for ages outside of combat. Now, I admit, I may have been mistaken, but so far I have seen little evidence other then "just cause" to see why bless is worse. I will take into account my best evidence, and thus far it is that silvery barbs is okay and balanced.
But yes, I admit that Bless is a bad example. I should have said guiding bolt. Advantage (on an attack that the caster can choose) plus a ton of damage, more on average than some notable spells of an equivalent level (chromatic orb or chaos bolt, anyone?). Guiding bolts is not banned, so neither should silvery barbs.
However, I DO NOT RUN your games. I do not PLAY in your games. I do not even know what your games even are. You are allowed to ban this spell if you feel like it. There's no doubt it's powerful; if that power makes you feel uncomfortable, by all means, ban it. But IN MY OPINION, this is one of the single best, most balanced spells from Strixhaven that isn't a somewhat annoyance-inducing spell like borrowed knowledge or kinetic jaunt (sorry to Yurei, but I feel like a 2nd-level slot is not worth spending for a +2 to +6 bonus to one single thing for one hour when you could instead just use any number of cheaper options to gain the same benefits). I LIKE SILVERY BARBS. Whether you like it or not, that's up for you to decide.
This is a book which introduces a spell that allows the caster to target ANY creature within range, regardless of size, type, or affiliation, and place that target exactly where they wish it to be. Friendly targets do it for free; enemy targets get a COn save, which sucks, but still. This is a spell that lets you Trafalgar Law your enemies into horrifying murder combos, throw their formations into chaos, expose their most vulnerable members with impugnity, and ensure even flying targets are not safe from your good friend Grungnok Axeface, the Axer of Faces. Conversely, it allows you to Instamnt MedEvac downed allies, pull a badly exposed friend out of an otherwise fatal ambush, position any ally you choose as favorably as you can, allow your allies to bypass inhospitable/impassable terrain, and just otherwise pull off a staggering myriad of clutch-ay-eff plays...
...and it's the flippin advantage spell people are crowing about?
Silvery Barbs is an excellent spell, to be certain. It's Vortex Warp that's the absolutely non-negotiable, absolute, inarguable, Must-Pick-On-All-Applicable-Casters-Forever "Big Winner" in this book. If you have the chance to take Vortex Warp and you don't use that chance? Well. I won't say you're bad at D&D and you should feel bad. I will, however, say that you have absolutely no grasp of tactics and are clearly not playing this game with the intent of winning fights. There are ninth-level spells that have less of an impact on a fight than putting one single character exactly where that character most/least wants to be, instantly and without issue.
This is a book which introduces a spell that allows the caster to target ANY creature within range, regardless of size, type, or affiliation, and place that target exactly where they wish it to be. Friendly targets do it for free; enemy targets get a COn save, which sucks, but still. This is a spell that lets you Trafalgar Law your enemies into horrifying murder combos, throw their formations into chaos, expose their most vulnerable members with impugnity, and ensure even flying targets are not safe from your good friend Grungnok Axeface, the Axer of Faces. Conversely, it allows you to Instamnt MedEvac downed allies, pull a badly exposed friend out of an otherwise fatal ambush, position any ally you choose as favorably as you can, allow your allies to bypass inhospitable/impassable terrain, and just otherwise pull off a staggering myriad of clutch-ay-eff plays...
...and it's the flippin advantage spell people are crowing about?
Silvery Barbs is an excellent spell, to be certain. It's Vortex Warp that's the absolutely non-negotiable, absolute, inarguable, Must-Pick-On-All-Applicable-Casters-Forever "Big Winner" in this book. If you have the chance to take Vortex Warp and you don't use that chance? Well. I won't say you're bad at D&D and you should feel bad. I will, however, say that you have absolutely no grasp of tactics and are clearly not playing this game with the intent of winning fights. There are ninth-level spells that have less of an impact on a fight than putting one single character exactly where that character most/least wants to be, instantly and without issue.
They are both must picks, but at least Vortex Warp does come with an opportunity cost of requiring an action to cast it, and it still does allow something targeted to save against it, it's a phenomenal spell allowing you to drop your martials anywhere in 90 feet on a whim or pull people out of danger and is totally very strong, BUT as you said it's a con save which is generally one of the worse saves to target, it's also your turns action.
Again the big thing about silvery barbs is that it's a REaction, that is so incredibly strong. Like I don't understand how that's not REALLY standing out to people. How often do you need your reaction in a turn? How often do you need your action? It's like Bonus Action spells, they are hella strong because they are BA spells, if healing word was an action? Who'd care? slap BA on it and it's amazing because it frees the cleric up to do something else.
That's what's blowing peoples minds, if silvery barbs was an action that said this guy gets disadvantage on one roll and your buddy gets advantage on one roll it would not be getting nearly as much hype and would be considered fairly meh in most situations. But the fact that someone can make a roll for an attack save or check, and I can say "eh naw reroll that and take the lower" (not even just a reroll but straight up take the lower) AND than get to toss a buddy advantage? and the cost is... my reaction???
Action economy is king in this game is it not? I've just probably denied an enemy an action, boosted my allies action (or chance tp resist being shut down if they roll a save) and the cost was a 1st lvl slot?
They are both must picks, but at least Vortex Warp does come with an opportunity cost of requiring an action to cast it, and it still does allow something targeted to save against it, it's a phenominal spell allowing you to drop your martials anywhere in 90 feet on a whim or pull people out of danger and is totally very strong, BUT as you said it's a con save which is generally one of the worse saves to target, it's also your turns action.
Again the big thing about silvery barbs is that it's a REaction, that is so incredibly strong. Like I don't understand how that's not REALLY standing out to people. How often do you need your reaction in a turn? How often do you need your action? It's like Bonus Action spells, they are hella strong because they are BA spells, if healing word was an action? Who'd care? slap BA on it and it's amazing because it frees the cleric up to do something else.
That's what's blowing peoples minds, if silvery barbs was an action that said this guy gets disadvantage on one roll and your buddy gets advantage on one roll it would not be getting nearly as much hype and would be considered fairly meh in most situations. But the fact that someone can make a roll I can say "eh naw reroll that and take the lower" (not even just a reroll but straight up take the lower) AND than get to toss a buddy advantage? and the cost is... my reaction???
The classes that can use this spell do not need their reaction every turn, but when they do need it, it is critically wasted if used to impose disadvantage on a save. Being unable to cast Counterspell is probably the scariest scenario imaginable when you need it but cannot use it. We can recognize that the spell is a powerful first level spell, but there is no small amount of sacrifice in its use for a caster. If you do not think the loss of Counterspell or Shield is a big deal, I do not believe you have played a caster. No offense intended.
They are both must picks, but at least Vortex Warp does come with an opportunity cost of requiring an action to cast it, and it still does allow something targeted to save against it, it's a phenominal spell allowing you to drop your martials anywhere in 90 feet on a whim or pull people out of danger and is totally very strong, BUT as you said it's a con save which is generally one of the worse saves to target, it's also your turns action.
Again the big thing about silvery barbs is that it's a REaction, that is so incredibly strong. Like I don't understand how that's not REALLY standing out to people. How often do you need your reaction in a turn? How often do you need your action? It's like Bonus Action spells, they are hella strong because they are BA spells, if healing word was an action? Who'd care? slap BA on it and it's amazing because it frees the cleric up to do something else.
That's what's blowing peoples minds, if silvery barbs was an action that said this guy gets disadvantage on one roll and your buddy gets advantage on one roll it would not be getting nearly as much hype and would be considered fairly meh in most situations. But the fact that someone can make a roll I can say "eh naw reroll that and take the lower" (not even just a reroll but straight up take the lower) AND than get to toss a buddy advantage? and the cost is... my reaction???
The classes that can use this spell do not need their reaction every turn, but when they do need it, it is critically wasted if used to impose disadvantage on a save. Being unable to cast Counterspell is probably the scariest scenario imaginable when you need it but cannot use it. We can recognize that the spell is a powerful first level spell, but there is no small amount of sacrifice in its use for a caster. If you do not think the loss of Counterspell or Shield is a big deal, I do not believe you have played a caster. No offense intended.
That is why I said "how often do you need your reaction?" Because the vast majority of the time you don't, if somethings in your face than your not going to be casting barbs. If something is open to getting in your face your probably not going to use barbs. If there is a caster on the field your probably not going to use barbs (until after their turn in which case your free to barbs reaction if you didn't need to counter spell)
The amount of times you can toss in a barbs to screw with something vs the amount of times your going to need your reaction to shield or counter spell is going to be vastly skewed.
Nobodies ever said "spam barbs at all opportunities ignore everything else going on"
That is why I said "how often do you need your reaction?" Because the vast majority of the time you don't, if somethings in your face than your not going to be casting barbs. If something is open to getting in your face your probably not going to use barbs. If there is a caster on the field your probably not going to use barbs (until after their turn in which case your free to barbs reaction if you didn't need to counter spell)
The amount of times you can toss in a barbs to screw with something vs the amount of times your going to need your reaction to shield or counter spell is going to be vastly skewed.
Nobodies ever said "SPAM BARBS ALL THE TIME CAN'T STOP WON'T STOP BARBS"
Yes, and I countered your question with the answer that while casters do not generally use their reaction as often, when they need it, they (and the entire party) really needs it. You do not know what you do not know in any given battle. It pays to take a measured approach to combat, at least when you are a caster. Your approach does not contain a lot of strategy and, if you are a caster, you may find yourself struggling if your DM is balancing a fight under the assumption that the caster is competent in their abilities.
The amount of times you have the opportunity to use Silvery Barbs compared to Counterspell is without question, vastly disproportionate. No one was really disputing this point though. What is disputed is whether the spell is overpowered in actual play. I feel the OP makes a strong case why it is not. I strongly encourage you to read it. I also strongly encourage you to read the post from Yamana_Eajii, as their post is also very well-made and thoughtful. Further, I feel like I addressed many valid points in my post here. If you feel, after reading all these posts that the spell is still busted, then I would love to see arguments why that have not already been addressed.
Lastly, no one I have seen stated or implied that those who think the spell is busted were making the argument that it can be spammed. If you disagree with me, please address my arguments, not arguments invented in your head.
That is why I said "how often do you need your reaction?" Because the vast majority of the time you don't, if somethings in your face than your not going to be casting barbs. If something is open to getting in your face your probably not going to use barbs. If there is a caster on the field your probably not going to use barbs (until after their turn in which case your free to barbs reaction if you didn't need to counter spell)
The amount of times you can toss in a barbs to screw with something vs the amount of times your going to need your reaction to shield or counter spell is going to be vastly skewed.
Nobodies ever said "SPAM BARBS ALL THE TIME CAN'T STOP WON'T STOP BARBS"
Yes, and I countered your question with the answer that while casters do not generally use their reaction as often, when they need it, they (and the entire party) really needs it. You do not know what you do not know in any given battle. It pays to take a measured approach to combat, at least when you are a caster. Your approach does not contain a lot of strategy and, if you are a caster, you may find yourself struggling if your DM is balancing a fight under the assumption that the caster is competent in their abilities.
The amount of times you have the opportunity to use Silvery Barbs compared to Counterspell is without question, vastly disproportionate. No one was really disputing this point though. What is disputed is whether the spell is overpowered in actual play. I feel the OP makes a strong case why it is not. I strongly encourage you to read it. I also strongly encourage you to read the post from Yamana_Eajii, as their post is also very well-made and thoughtful. Further, I feel like I addressed many valid points in my post here. If you feel, after reading all these posts that the spell is still busted, then I would love to see arguments why that have not already been addressed.
Lastly, no one I have seen stated or implied that those who think the spell is busted were making the argument that it can be spammed. If you disagree with me, please address my arguments, not arguments invented in your head.
Thank you for quoting me Erriku, but I feel that this argument is a little repetitive and is making me uneasy. I certainly wasn't quite so vocal about Fizban's or the lack of spells in Strixhaven or even about Wild Beyond the Witchlight (all of which crush my heart a little), so methinks those here that are arguing against silvery barbs are of the mind that cannot be reasoned with about that very same spell, despite any talents or wisdom they may possess.
Disliking something because it feels different and it could be used in very very powerful ways is just as reasonable as liking the same spell because it's balanced in most situations. I simply feel like other posters in the thread are afraid of people such as power gamers and those very niche scenarios where silvery barbs isn't just good, it's stupidly broken. However, in most situations, the spell does less than any bless, shield, or [/spell]guiding bolt[/spell] spell would do. These are two sides of the same coin: one where silvery barbs is so good it's broken, and one where it is totally fine. Both are legitimate views, and I believe they can be fixed with this simple homebrew clause you can put in the spell: "If the creature triggering the spell had advantage on the attack, this spell instead negates that advantage", or require 5 gp worth of fine inks to cast the spell, which the spell consumes. Both clauses make the spell much less spammable and prone to abuse.
As my semi-final comment, I just want to say to all those [spell[silvery barbs[/spell] naysayers, you should have banned guiding bolt a long time ago, as 4d6 damage is by far more powerful than disadvantage on one roll and a casting time of a reaction. Yes, I will stab you in your hearts with that one, as there is no argument that [spell]guiding bolt[spell] is the singular most broken spell in the entire game.
Finally, this is a fantasy game in which monks can walk up waterfalls and owl-people exist. The stupid power level of one spell won't break the game, any more than the much hated Aarakocra have. Take a break and actually play the game - likely thing is, none of your players even pick up silvery barbs!
The good thing about most of those other powerful spells is that they focus on one thing. Defence, movement, control. Barbs on the other hand can be used for any of those when combined with other spells. Did the enemy succeed on their save against Vortex Warp (or any other save or suck spell, like Banishment)? Use Barbs so you can effectively cast the spell again on your turn for the cost of a 1st level spell slot. Enemy succeed on their ability check to Counterspell? Cast Barbs to force the check again. Enemy got a crit on you? Cast Barbs which is just shy of a certainty of not being crit, or Shield if they didn't crit and you can boost your AC enough to get through.
Yes, there are undeniably situations where you don't want to cast Barbs so you can save your reaction for other things, but the same can be said for almost everything in the game - be mindful with your resources, casting time included. But Barbs is essentially using your reaction to cast two spells in one turn for the cost of the original spell plus any spell slot you use Barbs for, because taking Barbs doesn't stop you taking the other spells.
And then it also has pseudo abilities from the grave cleric and mastermind rogue subclasses, but arguably better.
That is why I said "how often do you need your reaction?" Because the vast majority of the time you don't, if somethings in your face than your not going to be casting barbs. If something is open to getting in your face your probably not going to use barbs. If there is a caster on the field your probably not going to use barbs (until after their turn in which case your free to barbs reaction if you didn't need to counter spell)
The amount of times you can toss in a barbs to screw with something vs the amount of times your going to need your reaction to shield or counter spell is going to be vastly skewed.
Nobodies ever said "SPAM BARBS ALL THE TIME CAN'T STOP WON'T STOP BARBS"
Yes, and I countered your question with the answer that while casters do not generally use their reaction as often, when they need it, they (and the entire party) really needs it. You do not know what you do not know in any given battle. It pays to take a measured approach to combat, at least when you are a caster. Your approach does not contain a lot of strategy and, if you are a caster, you may find yourself struggling if your DM is balancing a fight under the assumption that the caster is competent in their abilities.
The amount of times you have the opportunity to use Silvery Barbs compared to Counterspell is without question, vastly disproportionate. No one was really disputing this point though. What is disputed is whether the spell is overpowered in actual play. I feel the OP makes a strong case why it is not. I strongly encourage you to read it. I also strongly encourage you to read the post from Yamana_Eajii, as their post is also very well-made and thoughtful. Further, I feel like I addressed many valid points in my post here. If you feel, after reading all these posts that the spell is still busted, then I would love to see arguments why that have not already been addressed.
Lastly, no one I have seen stated or implied that those who think the spell is busted were making the argument that it can be spammed. If you disagree with me, please address my arguments, not arguments invented in your head.
The problem I have with your assumption of really needing your reaction at times when you do need it is it falls in the same line as feats like sharp shooter or GWM. We know these feats are busted, it doesn't matter that sometimes you fight something with an AC of 18 and the feats are a bad option to use at that point because the vast bulk of the time your not going to be doing that and using SS or GWM is the best option. They don't see as much "oh god" like barbs is getting because most people think casters are far stronger than martials as is, this is a nice bit of power creep for casters.
The vast bulk of the time in combat you will not need your reaction, but saving your buddy from a hit, forcing an enemy to reroll a check or save while granting your allies advantage happen constantly. Even as others have pointed it it could be a non combat scenario with checks being rolled against each other, imagine subtle spell silvery barbs in social situations, stealth situations...anything with an opposed something. it could be an opposed grapple check from your fighter.. It just has such vast array of applications, anytime there's dice being thrown by a non party member barbs can be used (I think the only thing you can't use it on is initiative) and again it's a reaction. Heck who says even non party members? group stealth check? silvery barbs your expertise, reliable talent +5 dex rogue and grant your paladin advantage on the roll! It just does SO MUCH!! edit: some more things I thought of after, someone use's an ability and the baddie passes the check, barbs it to a reroll, grant advantage to my rogue thats about to attack, or that player that's gonna start his turn in an aoe and needs to check or be rooted, or grant advantage to break that frightened/charmed condition. burn it on something stupid JUST to grant advantage on check or save that needs to be made by someone again as a reaction. Big baddy caster about to take his turn and your wizard is gonna need to counterspell? barbs anything to grant your wizard advantage on his next roll.
Yamana tries to draw a connection to guiding bolt but again, the spell is an action that is the clerics turn, they cast guiding bolt hope it hits and if they do 4d6 + advantage, and is only usable in combat. We have to keep in mind how powerful action economy is in DnD and this spell does not demand the players turn to get it of, and it has the chance of effecting two actions with a single spell slot (something easily regained during a short rest for wizards btw, thank you arcane recovery) and again is totally usable outside of combat situations. Something else I will point out about Guiding bolt is a lot of times initiative does not line up the way you want it to, I've seen guiding bolts advantage used up by the wrong character a lot, barbs goes to the person you want to have that advantage
Yurei does the same thing trying to draw connections to faerie fire and barbs. Faerie fire has a save against it, faerie fire hits everything in the zone, faerie fire is your action, faerie fire is concentration, faerie fire grants advantage, and advantage to only attack rolls. Barbs has no save, barbs hits what you want, barbs is not your action, barbs is not concentration, barbs is NOT disadvantage, and barbs is advantage on whatever/whoever rolls next not just attacks. Can faerie fire be better? yeah it can for sure but that does not stop barbs from being insanely good.
Yes there are going to be times where you can't/shouldn't use barbs but that does not stop it from being amazingly strong and asking the bare minimum from the caster, because again outside of situations where you need your counter spells or shields what do you need your reaction for? Why would you NOT cast barbs? and even when you DO need counter spell or possibly shield those windows are going to be opening and closing, if the enemy caster goes and doesn't cast a spell or hold action on one that frees you up to Barbs something until you go again. Likewise if that thing could run up and beat your face in and doesn't you are now free to barbs instead of needing to keep your reaction to shield.
I think some of the difference in view potentially comes in when people look at when the spell becomes powerful, taking barbs at lvl 1 is not a good idea, it's for when the games pushed forward enough that your 1st lvl slots are fodder, at that point it's just adding even more power to classes that frankly do not need power in 5e hence why people say it's OP. Barbs is not stopping me from dropping wall of force, or banishment or force cage etc etc it's just enhancing my abilities to further control the game
I mean, the part when you can cast it after knowing the result of the save is broken as hell. Most if not all spells meddling with rolls of any kind state that you can do so before knowing the outcome, which makes it difficult to asses and potetially waste the spell slot and reaction (in this case) for a save that was failed nonetheless. The mechanics of giving what is basically a disadvantage on a roll is not broken in itself, but in this case, when you already know if the enemy succeeded, it is broken as hell, no matter if a DM or a player uses it. No wonder it is banned, and although i said to myself that i would never ban a spell because it's too OP, i would consider banning this one. Shield is a good example of the same effect, but Silvery Barbs has so, so much more uses than that. You can fumble an enemy's attack, saving throw, ability check, basically everything that requires a roll, increasing the chancec to burn legendary resistances even more, if the enemy has one. It's a no-no for me.
They are both must picks, but at least Vortex Warp does come with an opportunity cost of requiring an action to cast it, and it still does allow something targeted to save against it, it's a phenominal spell allowing you to drop your martials anywhere in 90 feet on a whim or pull people out of danger and is totally very strong, BUT as you said it's a con save which is generally one of the worse saves to target, it's also your turns action.
Again the big thing about silvery barbs is that it's a REaction, that is so incredibly strong. Like I don't understand how that's not REALLY standing out to people. How often do you need your reaction in a turn? How often do you need your action? It's like Bonus Action spells, they are hella strong because they are BA spells, if healing word was an action? Who'd care? slap BA on it and it's amazing because it frees the cleric up to do something else.
That's what's blowing peoples minds, if silvery barbs was an action that said this guy gets disadvantage on one roll and your buddy gets advantage on one roll it would not be getting nearly as much hype and would be considered fairly meh in most situations. But the fact that someone can make a roll I can say "eh naw reroll that and take the lower" (not even just a reroll but straight up take the lower) AND than get to toss a buddy advantage? and the cost is... my reaction???
The classes that can use this spell do not need their reaction every turn, but when they do need it, it is critically wasted if used to impose disadvantage on a save. Being unable to cast Counterspell is probably the scariest scenario imaginable when you need it but cannot use it. We can recognize that the spell is a powerful first level spell, but there is no small amount of sacrifice in its use for a caster. If you do not think the loss of Counterspell or Shield is a big deal, I do not believe you have played a caster. No offense intended.
I mean, that's why you don't spam it every round? You use it for clutch spells that are going to change the direction and potentially end the combat/social encounter/whatever. Like, you don't Counterspell every single Firebolt the enemy is flinging either, you save it for those big ones you really don't want to see happening. It's unlikely both of those are going to happen in the same turn but when it does ... well it's a trade off and there's nothing wrong with that.
Thats the thing too...as these spells people are comparing it to the only one that even remotely gets close to its potential is Counterspell....and for that to be truly effective you have to give up a spell slot of equal value.
And Counterspell is a 3rd level spell and we comparing its value to roughly the same...that alone tells me the spell is not 1st level strength in most people's eyes.
Barbs gets exponentially more valuable the higher slots you get. Disintegrate with two chances for the enemy to fail is like casting it twice....effectively you use a 1st level spell to get to immediately recast a 6th level spell.
Its not something you spam but the fact you can do this on someone elses turn means you can leave their reaction open to use counterspell or shield as well....its a huge support spell.
Overall I am NOT opposed to the spell existing....just now as a 1st level spell. 2nd level would at least make it harder for anyone to pick up as they would have to dip pretty far into a class to get it which at that point they deserve it.
This is a book which introduces a spell that allows the caster to target ANY creature within range, regardless of size, type, or affiliation, and place that target exactly where they wish it to be. Friendly targets do it for free; enemy targets get a COn save, which sucks, but still. This is a spell that lets you Trafalgar Law your enemies into horrifying murder combos, throw their formations into chaos, expose their most vulnerable members with impugnity, and ensure even flying targets are not safe from your good friend Grungnok Axeface, the Axer of Faces. Conversely, it allows you to Instamnt MedEvac downed allies, pull a badly exposed friend out of an otherwise fatal ambush, position any ally you choose as favorably as you can, allow your allies to bypass inhospitable/impassable terrain, and just otherwise pull off a staggering myriad of clutch-ay-eff plays...
...and it's the flippin advantage spell people are crowing about?
Silvery Barbs is an excellent spell, to be certain. It's Vortex Warp that's the absolutely non-negotiable, absolute, inarguable, Must-Pick-On-All-Applicable-Casters-Forever "Big Winner" in this book. If you have the chance to take Vortex Warp and you don't use that chance? Well. I won't say you're bad at D&D and you should feel bad. I will, however, say that you have absolutely no grasp of tactics and are clearly not playing this game with the intent of winning fights. There are ninth-level spells that have less of an impact on a fight than putting one single character exactly where that character most/least wants to be, instantly and without issue.
Literally whataboutism. Two things can be busted at the same time, Yurei -- you started the thread about Barbs, not Vortex. This is not relevant. (Though, yeah, it does seem pretty strong.)
Having Silvery Barbs makes save-or-suck spells SO MUCH better! Let's say you throw a Hold Person and they make their save. Well, now you can make them roll again and use the lower roll -AND- grant pseudo-advantage to your ally. Now, not only is that target paralyzed, but your allies who are attacking with advantage get a third d20 to really fish for that crit! All for the cost of your reaction (which, let's face it, most caster don't use much anyway) and a 1-level spell slot. Of all of the reaction spells, Silvery Barbs is easily the most versatile and universally useful.
Small correction there, if YOU cast Hold Person then YOU can't cast Silvery Barbs to affect it. Only one spell per turn. Gotta use it during another player's (or enemy's) turn. Usually a party has more than one spell caster though and Silvery Barbs is just a 1st level spell anyway so while important to pay attention to it's really just a small obstacle.
That ain't the rules, chief. There is no one spell per turn rule. The rule is that when you cast a bonus action spell, "You can't cast another spell during the same turn, except for a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action."
It's perfectly valid to cast a spell with your action, hell throw in an action surge if you have fighter levels too and cast another spell with another action, and then also use your reaction to cast Silvery Barbs.
Having Silvery Barbs makes save-or-suck spells SO MUCH better! Let's say you throw a Hold Person and they make their save. Well, now you can make them roll again and use the lower roll -AND- grant pseudo-advantage to your ally. Now, not only is that target paralyzed, but your allies who are attacking with advantage get a third d20 to really fish for that crit! All for the cost of your reaction (which, let's face it, most caster don't use much anyway) and a 1-level spell slot. Of all of the reaction spells, Silvery Barbs is easily the most versatile and universally useful.
Small correction there, if YOU cast Hold Person then YOU can't cast Silvery Barbs to affect it. Only one spell per turn. Gotta use it during another player's (or enemy's) turn. Usually a party has more than one spell caster though and Silvery Barbs is just a 1st level spell anyway so while important to pay attention to it's really just a small obstacle.
I am not sure that is correct. There is nothing wrong with casting a spell as a reaction on your own turn, even if you cast a spell using your action. The only spells that specify whether you can or cannot cast another spell on your turn are those with Bonus Action casting time. So as far as I know, a Hold Person + Barbs combo is totally possibly.
But that's ultimately a small aside to this whole conversation. Since its a 1st level spell, it is incredibly easy for party members to pick this spell up to help combo those moments.
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The main problem with comparisons to bane/bless is that those spells require your action, as opposed to being a reaction. If a character normally has a 60% chance of success on an attack, bless increases that to 72.5%, so it's making that character about 20% more effective. Spending an action to make other people's actions better is worthwhile once the other people have gained one action (on average), which with three targets is just under two rounds. Barbs is, instead, a reaction.
Forcing a reroll on a save, after rolling, is very very strong; it basically doubles the power of all 'save or suck' spells (though it doesn't interact with legendary resistance; using legendary resistance is not succeeding on a d20 roll). Using it as an attack reroll is less relevant because most hard hitting stuff involves multiattack and the reroll probably hits anyway. If you delete the ability to force a reroll on a save the spell would be fine.
Your missing the big thing about Barbs, its not that it's better than shield (because it's not always), and vicious mockery doesn't compare, why? because Silvery barbs is a reaction.
Shield is only of use if your getting hit, vicious mockery is an action. Silvery barbs is useful all the time, and once we get into the higher levels 1st lvl spells are rarely worth casting. But burning my reaction to deny a die roll and grant advantage to a friend? Holy crap that is ALWAYS useful and that is why the spell is considered OP. The fact that 4 times a day we can deny a die roll, advantage a teamates die roll and that has NO bearing on what we do in our turn with the rest of our spells? (edit: hell actually use arcane recovery do it up to 8 times a day)
If the bard wants to drop vicious mockery he's not doing anything else on his turn, the target also gets a save. Barbs just flat out says "nope"
Also this whole bane/bless thing? again that falls into the realm of its an action and its concentration. So the cleric is down a turn and his concentration is used. Barbs again.. reaction.. no concentration and guess what? It works WITH bane and bless making it even better!
Let me start by asking for some patience. I am going to try using the tooltips for the very first time. If they turn out wrong, I apologize and will try to edit before the mess is noticed.
I would agree that advantage/disadvantage is better against single targets, but Bane and Bless do not have single target limitations. They start at 3 targets each, and they can be up-cast to affect additional targets. In the two years I have played a cleric, these are perhaps my most used combat spells. I have not yet seen Bane fail entirely and it was so good, I started using it on my bard as well. Going back to my previous comment, attacks and saves do not succeed or fail by much after modifiers. Having your entire party adding an average of +2 to every attack and save they make, or debuffing almost every enemy on the field every turn for the entire battle is huge. I do make the concession that against a single target, there is no competition; Silvery Barbs wins out with ease. If however, we are using actual common, medium difficulty battle scenarios with 4-6 targets, Silvery Barbs cannot compete. If Bane only successfully debuffs half the targets, it has outpaced Silvery Barbs because those targets are likely debuffed for the entire battle - attacks and saves.
I do agree that Bane and Bless having concentration does limit the power of these spells. However, I have played my forge cleric for two years and frankly, there really was not a lot of need for me to manage my concentration economy. Heat Metal never saw use past the first few levels (played DiA... so yeah), if you want to throw down Hold Person, you are likely waiting for it to be most useful, like outside of combat or when you have downed most of the targets and need to stop a fleeing creature. I never personally used Silence in combat because the target can just step outside of the AoE and cast. Once we were higher level and wisdom saves became more common, I did start using Beacon of Hope a lot more, but you are taking a gamble on that this will be necessary, while even a +1 to attacks is always useful. This also comes down to play style and my forge cleric was always in the thick of it; I had a different focus than worrying about concentration. With Warcaster and absolutely stacked constitution, it was not an issue I really ever had to worry about. In my experience though, when you are forced into situations that make you choose between concentrations, the conditions of the battle have shifted so dramatically, that the spell you are dropping is no longer serving its purpose well and the change is necessary. On the note of competing concentration, I feel that point supports my earlier point on competing reaction spells, such as Absorb Elements, Counterspell, and Shield. Using Silvery Barbs means you will not be using any of those for the rest of the turn and these spells arguably are far more important to keep in reserve in many if not most cases.
I do not believe that ability checks are a huge deal. How often does that really come up in actual games? In the campaign with my bard, I had a Rune Knight Fighter on the team, but this spell would have no benefit in aiding him in this grapples, as he already had the means to give himself advantage on every strength check; it was his entire focus and he did not even carry a weapon. Consider this point though - are you really, as a wizard, going to use the precious and finite reaction to boost the chances of a grapple succeeding? Even if a battle was nearing its end, I would be extremely reluctant to remove from the table the opportunity to use a Counterspell to help my martial teammate succeed on a grapple. Imagine the humiliation at burning your reaction to help your barbarian succeed on their grapple, only to have the BBEG blink out of the fight so they can better prepare to kill you later.
I would like to add though, that this discussion is not about whether Silvery Barbs is too powerful for a Bard, Sorcerer, or Wizard, but as a first level spell. I feel like trying to exclude Bane or Bless from the discussion simply because they are not available to most of these classes is kind of moving the goalposts.
Oh, I agree with you on the benefits of advantage/disadvantage. I do not believe that Bane and Bless are given a fair shake in comparison to Silvery Barbs for typical combat scenarios though. I obviously cannot speak for everyone, but in all the battles I have played, single target battles are few and far between. I might use Silvery Barbs against the boss during a critical juncture in a particularly heated battle if I know they do not have any spells that can cause an instant sad day for the party, but I am also very likely to be leaning into a Bane or Bless depending on my class for most battles.
Bane or Bless, yes this is true, but there is a specific reason for this and that is because they are so gosh darn powerful when used effectively. Buffing your entire party or debuffing potentially the entire enemy line for the entire combat is extremely powerful and I will take either of those any day over Fireball. For the sake of not spending too much time on my already overly-long post, I encourage you to see my comment higher up that addresses concentration economy and how that, in my experience, was not really a big deal.
I, however, would strongly (and respectfully) disagree with you on your comment that one or two key rolls is much more valuable than affecting every roll from a target. Stopping a target from downing a fellow PC is big, but if you have a healer, 5e is almost laughably forgiving about death after level 1 and it does not take long for enemies to start swinging their meaty paws around with multiattack. Giving disadvantage on a saving throw is also huge, and may even be the shinning moment of a major battle, but causing every add (or even half) to be unable to hit your friends is definitely more valuable, even if it does not blow anyone's hair back. Hits chip away at hit points and every PC has a limited number of them. If your party debuffer is not doing their job, then the healer has to play catch up, and a difficult battle is meant to strain the healer already. If your party has your healer doing the debuffing as well, then you certainly are going to be making some challenging choices in a difficult battle when your bard, sorcerer, or wizard has to risk trading imposing disadvantage for any of the three other major spells previously discussed that truthfully, they desperately need available in most difficult or deadly battles.
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Why is it that everyone here ignores the fact that concentration doesn't make spells weak, even when I illustrated the reasons why bless is just as good as silvery barbs and why concentration is fine? Why do people also insist on the "reaction" vs the action? This feels like cherry picking, because it ignores bless affects so many more creatures, for a longer time, and can be used for ages outside of combat. Now, I admit, I may have been mistaken, but so far I have seen little evidence other then "just cause" to see why bless is worse. I will take into account my best evidence, and thus far it is that silvery barbs is okay and balanced.
But yes, I admit that Bless is a bad example. I should have said guiding bolt. Advantage (on an attack that the caster can choose) plus a ton of damage, more on average than some notable spells of an equivalent level (chromatic orb or chaos bolt, anyone?). Guiding bolts is not banned, so neither should silvery barbs.
However, I DO NOT RUN your games. I do not PLAY in your games. I do not even know what your games even are. You are allowed to ban this spell if you feel like it. There's no doubt it's powerful; if that power makes you feel uncomfortable, by all means, ban it. But IN MY OPINION, this is one of the single best, most balanced spells from Strixhaven that isn't a somewhat annoyance-inducing spell like borrowed knowledge or kinetic jaunt (sorry to Yurei, but I feel like a 2nd-level slot is not worth spending for a +2 to +6 bonus to one single thing for one hour when you could instead just use any number of cheaper options to gain the same benefits). I LIKE SILVERY BARBS. Whether you like it or not, that's up for you to decide.
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I mean, like I said before.
This is a book which introduces a spell that allows the caster to target ANY creature within range, regardless of size, type, or affiliation, and place that target exactly where they wish it to be. Friendly targets do it for free; enemy targets get a COn save, which sucks, but still. This is a spell that lets you Trafalgar Law your enemies into horrifying murder combos, throw their formations into chaos, expose their most vulnerable members with impugnity, and ensure even flying targets are not safe from your good friend Grungnok Axeface, the Axer of Faces. Conversely, it allows you to Instamnt MedEvac downed allies, pull a badly exposed friend out of an otherwise fatal ambush, position any ally you choose as favorably as you can, allow your allies to bypass inhospitable/impassable terrain, and just otherwise pull off a staggering myriad of clutch-ay-eff plays...
...and it's the flippin advantage spell people are crowing about?
Silvery Barbs is an excellent spell, to be certain. It's Vortex Warp that's the absolutely non-negotiable, absolute, inarguable, Must-Pick-On-All-Applicable-Casters-Forever "Big Winner" in this book. If you have the chance to take Vortex Warp and you don't use that chance? Well. I won't say you're bad at D&D and you should feel bad. I will, however, say that you have absolutely no grasp of tactics and are clearly not playing this game with the intent of winning fights. There are ninth-level spells that have less of an impact on a fight than putting one single character exactly where that character most/least wants to be, instantly and without issue.
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They are both must picks, but at least Vortex Warp does come with an opportunity cost of requiring an action to cast it, and it still does allow something targeted to save against it, it's a phenomenal spell allowing you to drop your martials anywhere in 90 feet on a whim or pull people out of danger and is totally very strong, BUT as you said it's a con save which is generally one of the worse saves to target, it's also your turns action.
Again the big thing about silvery barbs is that it's a REaction, that is so incredibly strong. Like I don't understand how that's not REALLY standing out to people. How often do you need your reaction in a turn? How often do you need your action? It's like Bonus Action spells, they are hella strong because they are BA spells, if healing word was an action? Who'd care? slap BA on it and it's amazing because it frees the cleric up to do something else.
That's what's blowing peoples minds, if silvery barbs was an action that said this guy gets disadvantage on one roll and your buddy gets advantage on one roll it would not be getting nearly as much hype and would be considered fairly meh in most situations. But the fact that someone can make a roll for an attack save or check, and I can say "eh naw reroll that and take the lower" (not even just a reroll but straight up take the lower) AND than get to toss a buddy advantage? and the cost is... my reaction???
Action economy is king in this game is it not? I've just probably denied an enemy an action, boosted my allies action (or chance tp resist being shut down if they roll a save) and the cost was a 1st lvl slot?
The classes that can use this spell do not need their reaction every turn, but when they do need it, it is critically wasted if used to impose disadvantage on a save. Being unable to cast Counterspell is probably the scariest scenario imaginable when you need it but cannot use it. We can recognize that the spell is a powerful first level spell, but there is no small amount of sacrifice in its use for a caster. If you do not think the loss of Counterspell or Shield is a big deal, I do not believe you have played a caster. No offense intended.
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That is why I said "how often do you need your reaction?" Because the vast majority of the time you don't, if somethings in your face than your not going to be casting barbs. If something is open to getting in your face your probably not going to use barbs. If there is a caster on the field your probably not going to use barbs (until after their turn in which case your free to barbs reaction if you didn't need to counter spell)
The amount of times you can toss in a barbs to screw with something vs the amount of times your going to need your reaction to shield or counter spell is going to be vastly skewed.
Nobodies ever said "spam barbs at all opportunities ignore everything else going on"
edit: lil clean up
Yes, and I countered your question with the answer that while casters do not generally use their reaction as often, when they need it, they (and the entire party) really needs it. You do not know what you do not know in any given battle. It pays to take a measured approach to combat, at least when you are a caster. Your approach does not contain a lot of strategy and, if you are a caster, you may find yourself struggling if your DM is balancing a fight under the assumption that the caster is competent in their abilities.
The amount of times you have the opportunity to use Silvery Barbs compared to Counterspell is without question, vastly disproportionate. No one was really disputing this point though. What is disputed is whether the spell is overpowered in actual play. I feel the OP makes a strong case why it is not. I strongly encourage you to read it. I also strongly encourage you to read the post from Yamana_Eajii, as their post is also very well-made and thoughtful. Further, I feel like I addressed many valid points in my post here. If you feel, after reading all these posts that the spell is still busted, then I would love to see arguments why that have not already been addressed.
Lastly, no one I have seen stated or implied that those who think the spell is busted were making the argument that it can be spammed. If you disagree with me, please address my arguments, not arguments invented in your head.
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Thank you for quoting me Erriku, but I feel that this argument is a little repetitive and is making me uneasy. I certainly wasn't quite so vocal about Fizban's or the lack of spells in Strixhaven or even about Wild Beyond the Witchlight (all of which crush my heart a little), so methinks those here that are arguing against silvery barbs are of the mind that cannot be reasoned with about that very same spell, despite any talents or wisdom they may possess.
Disliking something because it feels different and it could be used in very very powerful ways is just as reasonable as liking the same spell because it's balanced in most situations. I simply feel like other posters in the thread are afraid of people such as power gamers and those very niche scenarios where silvery barbs isn't just good, it's stupidly broken. However, in most situations, the spell does less than any bless, shield, or [/spell]guiding bolt[/spell] spell would do. These are two sides of the same coin: one where silvery barbs is so good it's broken, and one where it is totally fine. Both are legitimate views, and I believe they can be fixed with this simple homebrew clause you can put in the spell: "If the creature triggering the spell had advantage on the attack, this spell instead negates that advantage", or require 5 gp worth of fine inks to cast the spell, which the spell consumes. Both clauses make the spell much less spammable and prone to abuse.
As my semi-final comment, I just want to say to all those [spell[silvery barbs[/spell] naysayers, you should have banned guiding bolt a long time ago, as 4d6 damage is by far more powerful than disadvantage on one roll and a casting time of a reaction. Yes, I will stab you in your hearts with that one, as there is no argument that [spell]guiding bolt[spell] is the singular most broken spell in the entire game.
Finally, this is a fantasy game in which monks can walk up waterfalls and owl-people exist. The stupid power level of one spell won't break the game, any more than the much hated Aarakocra have. Take a break and actually play the game - likely thing is, none of your players even pick up silvery barbs!
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The good thing about most of those other powerful spells is that they focus on one thing. Defence, movement, control. Barbs on the other hand can be used for any of those when combined with other spells. Did the enemy succeed on their save against Vortex Warp (or any other save or suck spell, like Banishment)? Use Barbs so you can effectively cast the spell again on your turn for the cost of a 1st level spell slot. Enemy succeed on their ability check to Counterspell? Cast Barbs to force the check again. Enemy got a crit on you? Cast Barbs which is just shy of a certainty of not being crit, or Shield if they didn't crit and you can boost your AC enough to get through.
Yes, there are undeniably situations where you don't want to cast Barbs so you can save your reaction for other things, but the same can be said for almost everything in the game - be mindful with your resources, casting time included. But Barbs is essentially using your reaction to cast two spells in one turn for the cost of the original spell plus any spell slot you use Barbs for, because taking Barbs doesn't stop you taking the other spells.
And then it also has pseudo abilities from the grave cleric and mastermind rogue subclasses, but arguably better.
The problem I have with your assumption of really needing your reaction at times when you do need it is it falls in the same line as feats like sharp shooter or GWM. We know these feats are busted, it doesn't matter that sometimes you fight something with an AC of 18 and the feats are a bad option to use at that point because the vast bulk of the time your not going to be doing that and using SS or GWM is the best option. They don't see as much "oh god" like barbs is getting because most people think casters are far stronger than martials as is, this is a nice bit of power creep for casters.
The vast bulk of the time in combat you will not need your reaction, but saving your buddy from a hit, forcing an enemy to reroll a check or save while granting your allies advantage happen constantly. Even as others have pointed it it could be a non combat scenario with checks being rolled against each other, imagine subtle spell silvery barbs in social situations, stealth situations...anything with an opposed something. it could be an opposed grapple check from your fighter.. It just has such vast array of applications, anytime there's dice being thrown by a non party member barbs can be used (I think the only thing you can't use it on is initiative) and again it's a reaction. Heck who says even non party members? group stealth check? silvery barbs your expertise, reliable talent +5 dex rogue and grant your paladin advantage on the roll! It just does SO MUCH!! edit: some more things I thought of after, someone use's an ability and the baddie passes the check, barbs it to a reroll, grant advantage to my rogue thats about to attack, or that player that's gonna start his turn in an aoe and needs to check or be rooted, or grant advantage to break that frightened/charmed condition. burn it on something stupid JUST to grant advantage on check or save that needs to be made by someone again as a reaction. Big baddy caster about to take his turn and your wizard is gonna need to counterspell? barbs anything to grant your wizard advantage on his next roll.
Yamana tries to draw a connection to guiding bolt but again, the spell is an action that is the clerics turn, they cast guiding bolt hope it hits and if they do 4d6 + advantage, and is only usable in combat. We have to keep in mind how powerful action economy is in DnD and this spell does not demand the players turn to get it of, and it has the chance of effecting two actions with a single spell slot (something easily regained during a short rest for wizards btw, thank you arcane recovery) and again is totally usable outside of combat situations. Something else I will point out about Guiding bolt is a lot of times initiative does not line up the way you want it to, I've seen guiding bolts advantage used up by the wrong character a lot, barbs goes to the person you want to have that advantage
Yurei does the same thing trying to draw connections to faerie fire and barbs. Faerie fire has a save against it, faerie fire hits everything in the zone, faerie fire is your action, faerie fire is concentration, faerie fire grants advantage, and advantage to only attack rolls. Barbs has no save, barbs hits what you want, barbs is not your action, barbs is not concentration, barbs is NOT disadvantage, and barbs is advantage on whatever/whoever rolls next not just attacks. Can faerie fire be better? yeah it can for sure but that does not stop barbs from being insanely good.
Yes there are going to be times where you can't/shouldn't use barbs but that does not stop it from being amazingly strong and asking the bare minimum from the caster, because again outside of situations where you need your counter spells or shields what do you need your reaction for? Why would you NOT cast barbs? and even when you DO need counter spell or possibly shield those windows are going to be opening and closing, if the enemy caster goes and doesn't cast a spell or hold action on one that frees you up to Barbs something until you go again. Likewise if that thing could run up and beat your face in and doesn't you are now free to barbs instead of needing to keep your reaction to shield.
I think some of the difference in view potentially comes in when people look at when the spell becomes powerful, taking barbs at lvl 1 is not a good idea, it's for when the games pushed forward enough that your 1st lvl slots are fodder, at that point it's just adding even more power to classes that frankly do not need power in 5e hence why people say it's OP. Barbs is not stopping me from dropping wall of force, or banishment or force cage etc etc it's just enhancing my abilities to further control the game
I mean, the part when you can cast it after knowing the result of the save is broken as hell. Most if not all spells meddling with rolls of any kind state that you can do so before knowing the outcome, which makes it difficult to asses and potetially waste the spell slot and reaction (in this case) for a save that was failed nonetheless. The mechanics of giving what is basically a disadvantage on a roll is not broken in itself, but in this case, when you already know if the enemy succeeded, it is broken as hell, no matter if a DM or a player uses it. No wonder it is banned, and although i said to myself that i would never ban a spell because it's too OP, i would consider banning this one. Shield is a good example of the same effect, but Silvery Barbs has so, so much more uses than that. You can fumble an enemy's attack, saving throw, ability check, basically everything that requires a roll, increasing the chancec to burn legendary resistances even more, if the enemy has one. It's a no-no for me.
Thats the thing too...as these spells people are comparing it to the only one that even remotely gets close to its potential is Counterspell....and for that to be truly effective you have to give up a spell slot of equal value.
And Counterspell is a 3rd level spell and we comparing its value to roughly the same...that alone tells me the spell is not 1st level strength in most people's eyes.
Barbs gets exponentially more valuable the higher slots you get. Disintegrate with two chances for the enemy to fail is like casting it twice....effectively you use a 1st level spell to get to immediately recast a 6th level spell.
Its not something you spam but the fact you can do this on someone elses turn means you can leave their reaction open to use counterspell or shield as well....its a huge support spell.
Overall I am NOT opposed to the spell existing....just now as a 1st level spell. 2nd level would at least make it harder for anyone to pick up as they would have to dip pretty far into a class to get it which at that point they deserve it.
Literally whataboutism. Two things can be busted at the same time, Yurei -- you started the thread about Barbs, not Vortex. This is not relevant. (Though, yeah, it does seem pretty strong.)
That ain't the rules, chief. There is no one spell per turn rule. The rule is that when you cast a bonus action spell, "You can't cast another spell during the same turn, except for a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action."
It's perfectly valid to cast a spell with your action, hell throw in an action surge if you have fighter levels too and cast another spell with another action, and then also use your reaction to cast Silvery Barbs.
I am not sure that is correct. There is nothing wrong with casting a spell as a reaction on your own turn, even if you cast a spell using your action. The only spells that specify whether you can or cannot cast another spell on your turn are those with Bonus Action casting time. So as far as I know, a Hold Person + Barbs combo is totally possibly.
But that's ultimately a small aside to this whole conversation. Since its a 1st level spell, it is incredibly easy for party members to pick this spell up to help combo those moments.
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