Your statement only applies to a small block of my text, you're not in context. I suggest you read the section of the article on bless for an appropriate understanding of my reasoning.
Your statement only applies to a small block of my text, you're not in context. I suggest you read the section of the article on bless for an appropriate understanding of my reasoning.
I disagree...bless only adds a d4 which limits its utility when AC and DC reach a certain threshold. ADV/DIS has a much higher swing mathematically. Also bless occurs before the roll is determined as a success/failure not after...this means you can hold the barb in response and only use it if the creature succeeds on the roll vs. bless having to be on all the time to carry any benefit.
Bless also carries a concentration burden that prohibits you from using more powerful concentration spells. The higher level you go the higher the opportunity cost to use bless vs. a more powerful spell.
No such qualms exist with Silvery Barbs as the spell does not require concentration, does not burn your action, and only applies when you most need it...when the creature succeeds.
All these comparisons with other spells are neglecting that Barbs competes with *all* of them. It's not strictly better than Shield... But it's arguably better, or just as good, or close, while also being better, just as good, or close to Bless. And Fortune's Favor. And, and, and.
There have always been spells that provide incredibly potent effects to create a desired outcome, specific to a certain situation.
Silvery Barbs is simply the latest example of such a spell, providing an incredibly effective way to reroll a d20, no matter what.
It isn’t guaranteed success; but the odds favor their caster.
It only works on a single roll; so any subsequent events might leave the caster vulnerable.
It will burn through slots at a very rapid rate, should the caster lean heavily on it.
I do find it interesting, that the original UA “Silvery Barbs” from the Silverquill subclass actually required the target to be susceptible to the charm condition, and this version does not.
Hypothetically, if this version had included that limitation, then “Silvery Barbs” would no longer work on the creatures immune to charm effects.
I don’t read the forums enough to realize people were crying about this spell. I think it’s fine. A new roll doesn’t automatically mean the target fails, which is basically the equivalent of a saving throw. If you make the target roll a save, and they fail, then re-roll the original action (save, attack, whatever) and it’s higher thanthe original roll then the spell was wasted and becomes pointless. If it’s a choice between barbs and shield, and I know the shield will block the attack but barbs might cause the attack to fail, I’m going to spend the spell slot on shield, so it’s not like wizards are going to spend all of their slots on this one spell all the time.
Also, while it’s not as good as I hoped I think Strixhaven is fine as has lots of possibilities.
I don’t read the forums enough to realize people were crying about this spell. I think it’s fine. A new roll doesn’t automatically mean the target fails, which is basically the equivalent of a saving throw. If you make the target roll a save, and they fail, then re-roll the original action (save, attack, whatever) and it’s higher thanthe original roll then the spell was wasted and becomes pointless. If it’s a choice between barbs and shield, and I know the shield will block the attack but barbs might cause the attack to fail, I’m going to spend the spell slot on shield, so it’s not like wizards are going to spend all of their slots on this one spell all the time.
Also, while it’s not as good as I hoped I think Strixhaven is fine as has lots of possibilities.
Depending on your DM you might not know if shield will protect you...one DM I have simply askes for my AC then says the roll hits and doesn't give a hard number. I then have to gauge if its worth it to use shield....plus it only protects to a point where crits will still pop through or high rolls.
The effects are dramatically different as the shield may block a single attack or multiple but Silvery Barbs combo'd with shut down spell could end the creatures entire turn which could protect more than just yourself.
Shutting down a whole turn>>>>>raising AC for one character IMO
Its about what it has the potential to do as well...it gets increasingly better the higher you go where as shield provides the same benefit throughout with a decreasing chance it will help you out as attack stats rise on creatures...its the opposite for barbs as it increasing exponentially with higher levels.
Let's not forget that simply by having the spell known or prepared, Silvery Barbs entitles you to know when a creature you can see within 60 feet succeeds on an attack roll, ability check, or saving throw. The first one is generally obvious anyway, but the latter two are impossible to know in general without a special rule telling you - which Silvery Barbs accomplishes. Just having the spell at the ready means you e.g. know when you successfully Charm someone, just as you'll know when someone sees through your Stealth. That's tremendous even before you consider casting the thing. It's an incredibly powerful spell.
A bit of an aside, but I think this thread has gone a long way in informing me on just how much people are sleeping on Bane/Bless. A d4 may not sound like a lot, but in practice with balanced battles, people often do not fail saves and attacks by much after modifiers. Also, my eloquence bard has dominated the field using her staple d4 cantrip, to the point that the DM got meta at one point by curiously and consistently targeting the bard.
Silvery barbs is strong and on paper certainly looks it, but in play, I think it is getting perhaps a bit too much hair-pulling and gnashing of teeth. A reaction happens once per round. So if a bard, sorcerer, or wizard uses this, there is no shield, no counterspell, and no absorb elements (any of these classes will almost always have at least one) for the rest of the round of combat. What DM would not be able to exploit this for interesting and potentially devastating results?
A bit of an aside, but I think this thread has gone a long way in informing me on just how much people are sleeping on Bane/Bless. A d4 may not sound like a lot, but in practice with balanced battles, people often do not fail saves and attacks by much after modifiers. Also, my eloquence bard has dominated the field using her staple d4 cantrip, to the point that the DM got meta at one point by curiously and consistently targeting the bard.
Silvery barbs is strong and on paper certainly looks it, but in play, I think it is getting perhaps a bit too much hair-pulling and gnashing of teeth. A reaction happens once per round. So if a bard, sorcerer, or wizard uses this, there is no shield, no counterspell, and no absorb elements (any of these classes will almost always have at least one) for the rest of the round of combat. What DM would not be able to exploit this for interesting and potentially devastating results?
D4 is good I agree but math wise DIS is better with higher DCs so my major point was the spell gets better and better with progression while a flat d4 regresses with higher saves.
Bless is a great spell and so is bane.... In fact you can use bane with silvery barbs to make it even more effective.
This thread is not off-topic but it's getting heated. Can we please return to normal talking without bludgeoning each other's brains over a spell you can yourself choose to accept or ignore? If anything, this thread should not exist and we should be hating on fortune's favor and borrowed knowledge.
My problem with this spell is level. It being a first level spell is too much power you can just pull out whenever. It’s a more powerful lucky feat in certain situations. rerolls are powerful and should be rare. But first level? This is second or third level material.
Let's not forget that simply by having the spell known or prepared, Silvery Barbs entitles you to know when a creature you can see within 60 feet succeeds on an attack roll, ability check, or saving throw. The first one is generally obvious anyway, but the latter two are impossible to know in general without a special rule telling you - which Silvery Barbs accomplishes. Just having the spell at the ready means you e.g. know when you successfully Charm someone, just as you'll know when someone sees through your Stealth. That's tremendous even before you consider casting the thing. It's an incredibly powerful spell.
This is interesting.
Edit: I don't really keep my DM rolls a secret. I know some people do, but basically, I don't see a lot of reason to do it. If someone sees you hiding, they're not going to pretend they don't -- and if they do, then they're rolling Deception or something. Basically all my players already know everything this would reveal to them.
Oi. Borrowed Knowledge is great. It's exactly the sort of spell a bunch of stuffy, magic-academy wizards should invent: "Why do I need to practice my skills? I didn't study magic for thirty years to not use it to cheat on everything else! Hogwash to that, I'm proficient in whatever I want to be!" And frankly, being able to turn on Athletics or Acrobatics in a dungeon crawl where your physicality is tested as much as your arcane might ain't nothing.
But yeah. J-Craw did Fortune's Favor dirty. The original version in C2, before EGtW was published, didn't require any material components - the 100gp consumed pearl was specifically added in that book, and it immediately turned Fortune's Favor from a super neat 'manipulate Fate' spell to an atrocious waste of pricy material components. How many poor pearls did Caleb blow throw after J-Craw nerfed the shit out of his spell in C2. Just disgraceful. I've been half-tempted to fix the spell more'n once for my own table and cut that gp cost right back out, no gorram way one time-limited Luck point costs the same as a Greater Restoration. Eugh.
A bit of an aside, but I think this thread has gone a long way in informing me on just how much people are sleeping on Bane/Bless. A d4 may not sound like a lot, but in practice with balanced battles, people often do not fail saves and attacks by much after modifiers.
I almost feel like Silvery Barbs is a limited Bane + Bless two punch. You get an effective -5 for an enemy roll you already know was going to succeed (Bane) + an effective +5 for your ally's next roll (Bless). The number of targets is smaller (two creatures instead of three) and it will only affect one roll each, but silvery barbs also doesn't eat up concentration like Bane and Bless. Silvery Barbs also applies to ability checks in addition to attack rolls and saving throws, which means it can also act on things like grapples, shoves, or spellcasting ability checks made as part of something like Dispel Magic.
The limitations are more than made up for (imo) by the fact that it has more versatility, can be cast as a reaction, and does not interrupt any other spell you might be concentrating on.
Another thing of note when comparing Bless/Bane to this spell. Neither of those spells are usually available to Sorcerers and Wizards in the first place, so giving them a quasi-Bane/Bless spell gives them a buff/debuff potential that now overlaps with clerics. I wont go so far as to say that that is a problem, but it is an interesting observation that can be made as part of the comparison.
Let's not forget that simply by having the spell known or prepared, Silvery Barbs entitles you to know when a creature you can see within 60 feet succeeds on an attack roll, ability check, or saving throw. The first one is generally obvious anyway, but the latter two are impossible to know in general without a special rule telling you - which Silvery Barbs accomplishes. Just having the spell at the ready means you e.g. know when you successfully Charm someone, just as you'll know when someone sees through your Stealth. That's tremendous even before you consider casting the thing. It's an incredibly powerful spell.
Hard disagree. While Bane and Bless can only be used one at a time, the fact that they can last longer than most battles on multiple targets while only expending one spell slot per use makes them highly effective. The -5/+5 thing is irrelevant. The second roll isn’t guaranteed to create a favored outcome to the caster.
As far as the Shield comparison goes, most DMs I’ve seen give you the option of using the spell after announcing the roll. Even if they don’t you generally have a higher chance of it being worth it to cast. Also, Silvery Barbs works on one roll. Shield lasts the entire turn and stops otherwise unstoppable magic missles, which barbs won’t help with.
Hard disagree. While Bane and Bless can only be used one at a time, the fact that they can last longer than most battles on multiple targets while only expending one spell slot per use makes them highly effective. The -5/+5 thing is irrelevant. The second roll isn’t guaranteed to create a favored outcome to the caster.
As far as the Shield comparison goes, most DMs I’ve seen give you the option of using the spell after announcing the roll. Even if they don’t you generally have a higher chance of it being worth it to cast. Also, Silvery Barbs works on one roll. Shield lasts the entire turn and stops otherwise unstoppable magic missles, which barbs won’t help with.
The main argument of Shield is that it's a combat spell, and it has combat focuses.
Silvery Barbs is an everything spell. It affects roleplay, combat, everything. It's just GOOD. It's TOO good. Combined with the automatic knowledge of knowing when people succeed AROUND you because of how the spell works?
It's weird that we're getting away from Counterspell with how a lot of new enemies work with innate abilities that are specifically not spellcasting, and the replacement was a spell at a lower level that just flat out change games. Rerolls are strong, but they also make the game boring if left unchecked. RNG is part of the game, but it needs to be checked.
I don't know as I agree with the "you automatically gain knowledge of every single check ever" thing. If you're not aware of the target then you can't Barbs it; after all, the reaction is 'when a creature you can see within 60 feet...". Combined with the fact that proper action resolution demands that dice get thrown when resolving an action, and there's not as much wigglew room as someone might think. NPCs don't usually make ability checks; you're not contesting a merchant's Persuasion when you haggle for goods, you're making a check against the DC for 'better prices'. NPC ability checks are rare even in combat outside of grappling, and they're usually much rarer outside combat. Attack rolls, you know whether or not somebody succeeded pretty conclusively, and saving throws are usually the same way.
Sure, if your DM is playing double-blind where you don't know if something succeeded on a save the spell becomes either harder to use or more annoying to use, but those are the sorts of tables where spells like this end up banned anyways. Silvery Barbs isn't the only spell/ability that just doesn't really work properly at a table where you never know if you or anyone else succeeds or fails at anything.
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Your statement only applies to a small block of my text, you're not in context. I suggest you read the section of the article on bless for an appropriate understanding of my reasoning.
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I disagree...bless only adds a d4 which limits its utility when AC and DC reach a certain threshold. ADV/DIS has a much higher swing mathematically. Also bless occurs before the roll is determined as a success/failure not after...this means you can hold the barb in response and only use it if the creature succeeds on the roll vs. bless having to be on all the time to carry any benefit.
Bless also carries a concentration burden that prohibits you from using more powerful concentration spells. The higher level you go the higher the opportunity cost to use bless vs. a more powerful spell.
No such qualms exist with Silvery Barbs as the spell does not require concentration, does not burn your action, and only applies when you most need it...when the creature succeeds.
All these comparisons with other spells are neglecting that Barbs competes with *all* of them. It's not strictly better than Shield... But it's arguably better, or just as good, or close, while also being better, just as good, or close to Bless. And Fortune's Favor. And, and, and.
I’m fine with the spell.
There have always been spells that provide incredibly potent effects to create a desired outcome, specific to a certain situation.
Silvery Barbs is simply the latest example of such a spell, providing an incredibly effective way to reroll a d20, no matter what.
It isn’t guaranteed success; but the odds favor their caster.
It only works on a single roll; so any subsequent events might leave the caster vulnerable.
It will burn through slots at a very rapid rate, should the caster lean heavily on it.
I do find it interesting, that the original UA “Silvery Barbs” from the Silverquill subclass actually required the target to be susceptible to the charm condition, and this version does not.
Hypothetically, if this version had included that limitation, then “Silvery Barbs” would no longer work on the creatures immune to charm effects.
Instead, the spell will work on anything.
That’s pretty sweet.
I don’t read the forums enough to realize people were crying about this spell. I think it’s fine. A new roll doesn’t automatically mean the target fails, which is basically the equivalent of a saving throw. If you make the target roll a save, and they fail, then re-roll the original action (save, attack, whatever) and it’s higher than the original roll then the spell was wasted and becomes pointless. If it’s a choice between barbs and shield, and I know the shield will block the attack but barbs might cause the attack to fail, I’m going to spend the spell slot on shield, so it’s not like wizards are going to spend all of their slots on this one spell all the time.
Also, while it’s not as good as I hoped I think Strixhaven is fine as has lots of possibilities.
So far it seems the spell is at best divisive which I find personally hard with DMing for a lot of new groups.
The other spell/feature comparisons are hard because this is a 1st level spell and not something that requires a ton of investment to get.
Other things mentioned like Portent takes 2 levels of wizard to obtain.
Depending on your DM you might not know if shield will protect you...one DM I have simply askes for my AC then says the roll hits and doesn't give a hard number. I then have to gauge if its worth it to use shield....plus it only protects to a point where crits will still pop through or high rolls.
The effects are dramatically different as the shield may block a single attack or multiple but Silvery Barbs combo'd with shut down spell could end the creatures entire turn which could protect more than just yourself.
Shutting down a whole turn>>>>>raising AC for one character IMO
Its about what it has the potential to do as well...it gets increasingly better the higher you go where as shield provides the same benefit throughout with a decreasing chance it will help you out as attack stats rise on creatures...its the opposite for barbs as it increasing exponentially with higher levels.
Let's not forget that simply by having the spell known or prepared, Silvery Barbs entitles you to know when a creature you can see within 60 feet succeeds on an attack roll, ability check, or saving throw. The first one is generally obvious anyway, but the latter two are impossible to know in general without a special rule telling you - which Silvery Barbs accomplishes. Just having the spell at the ready means you e.g. know when you successfully Charm someone, just as you'll know when someone sees through your Stealth. That's tremendous even before you consider casting the thing. It's an incredibly powerful spell.
A bit of an aside, but I think this thread has gone a long way in informing me on just how much people are sleeping on Bane/Bless. A d4 may not sound like a lot, but in practice with balanced battles, people often do not fail saves and attacks by much after modifiers. Also, my eloquence bard has dominated the field using her staple d4 cantrip, to the point that the DM got meta at one point by curiously and consistently targeting the bard.
Silvery barbs is strong and on paper certainly looks it, but in play, I think it is getting perhaps a bit too much hair-pulling and gnashing of teeth. A reaction happens once per round. So if a bard, sorcerer, or wizard uses this, there is no shield, no counterspell, and no absorb elements (any of these classes will almost always have at least one) for the rest of the round of combat. What DM would not be able to exploit this for interesting and potentially devastating results?
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D4 is good I agree but math wise DIS is better with higher DCs so my major point was the spell gets better and better with progression while a flat d4 regresses with higher saves.
Bless is a great spell and so is bane.... In fact you can use bane with silvery barbs to make it even more effective.
This thread is not off-topic but it's getting heated. Can we please return to normal talking without bludgeoning each other's brains over a spell you can yourself choose to accept or ignore? If anything, this thread should not exist and we should be hating on fortune's favor and borrowed knowledge.
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My problem with this spell is level. It being a first level spell is too much power you can just pull out whenever. It’s a more powerful lucky feat in certain situations. rerolls are powerful and should be rare. But first level? This is second or third level material.
This is interesting.
Edit: I don't really keep my DM rolls a secret. I know some people do, but basically, I don't see a lot of reason to do it. If someone sees you hiding, they're not going to pretend they don't -- and if they do, then they're rolling Deception or something. Basically all my players already know everything this would reveal to them.
Oi. Borrowed Knowledge is great. It's exactly the sort of spell a bunch of stuffy, magic-academy wizards should invent: "Why do I need to practice my skills? I didn't study magic for thirty years to not use it to cheat on everything else! Hogwash to that, I'm proficient in whatever I want to be!" And frankly, being able to turn on Athletics or Acrobatics in a dungeon crawl where your physicality is tested as much as your arcane might ain't nothing.
But yeah. J-Craw did Fortune's Favor dirty. The original version in C2, before EGtW was published, didn't require any material components - the 100gp consumed pearl was specifically added in that book, and it immediately turned Fortune's Favor from a super neat 'manipulate Fate' spell to an atrocious waste of pricy material components. How many poor pearls did Caleb blow throw after J-Craw nerfed the shit out of his spell in C2. Just disgraceful. I've been half-tempted to fix the spell more'n once for my own table and cut that gp cost right back out, no gorram way one time-limited Luck point costs the same as a Greater Restoration. Eugh.
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I almost feel like Silvery Barbs is a limited Bane + Bless two punch. You get an effective -5 for an enemy roll you already know was going to succeed (Bane) + an effective +5 for your ally's next roll (Bless). The number of targets is smaller (two creatures instead of three) and it will only affect one roll each, but silvery barbs also doesn't eat up concentration like Bane and Bless. Silvery Barbs also applies to ability checks in addition to attack rolls and saving throws, which means it can also act on things like grapples, shoves, or spellcasting ability checks made as part of something like Dispel Magic.
The limitations are more than made up for (imo) by the fact that it has more versatility, can be cast as a reaction, and does not interrupt any other spell you might be concentrating on.
Another thing of note when comparing Bless/Bane to this spell. Neither of those spells are usually available to Sorcerers and Wizards in the first place, so giving them a quasi-Bane/Bless spell gives them a buff/debuff potential that now overlaps with clerics. I wont go so far as to say that that is a problem, but it is an interesting observation that can be made as part of the comparison.
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Never even considered that....
Man that's a good point.
Hard disagree. While Bane and Bless can only be used one at a time, the fact that they can last longer than most battles on multiple targets while only expending one spell slot per use makes them highly effective. The -5/+5 thing is irrelevant. The second roll isn’t guaranteed to create a favored outcome to the caster.
As far as the Shield comparison goes, most DMs I’ve seen give you the option of using the spell after announcing the roll. Even if they don’t you generally have a higher chance of it being worth it to cast. Also, Silvery Barbs works on one roll. Shield lasts the entire turn and stops otherwise unstoppable magic missles, which barbs won’t help with.
The main argument of Shield is that it's a combat spell, and it has combat focuses.
Silvery Barbs is an everything spell. It affects roleplay, combat, everything. It's just GOOD. It's TOO good. Combined with the automatic knowledge of knowing when people succeed AROUND you because of how the spell works?
It's weird that we're getting away from Counterspell with how a lot of new enemies work with innate abilities that are specifically not spellcasting, and the replacement was a spell at a lower level that just flat out change games. Rerolls are strong, but they also make the game boring if left unchecked. RNG is part of the game, but it needs to be checked.
This spell sucks for overall roleplay
I don't know as I agree with the "you automatically gain knowledge of every single check ever" thing. If you're not aware of the target then you can't Barbs it; after all, the reaction is 'when a creature you can see within 60 feet...". Combined with the fact that proper action resolution demands that dice get thrown when resolving an action, and there's not as much wigglew room as someone might think. NPCs don't usually make ability checks; you're not contesting a merchant's Persuasion when you haggle for goods, you're making a check against the DC for 'better prices'. NPC ability checks are rare even in combat outside of grappling, and they're usually much rarer outside combat. Attack rolls, you know whether or not somebody succeeded pretty conclusively, and saving throws are usually the same way.
Sure, if your DM is playing double-blind where you don't know if something succeeded on a save the spell becomes either harder to use or more annoying to use, but those are the sorts of tables where spells like this end up banned anyways. Silvery Barbs isn't the only spell/ability that just doesn't really work properly at a table where you never know if you or anyone else succeeds or fails at anything.
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