In 4th Ed, WotC attempted to have their own character builder. Unlike D&D Beyond, they forced errata and changes to 4e for purposes of game 'Balance' on existing characters. After they completely ruined a character 3 times, a character I had managed to get to L16 despite the first 2 character changing alterations force on that character, I gave up on the builder, and 4e in general. I went over to Pathfinder at the time, as did most people I gave with.
If the changes in this book are forced on me, it may be time for me to give up on D&D and go back to Pathfinder. I may think PF2 is far crappier than 5e, but at least they don't force game altering changes across the board on those that don't want them (?yet?) . . .
We get it, but...
DnDBeyond will do what WotC tells them to do.
You are filing your complaint to the wrong people.
Here's the thing though, they aren't.
Sure, that is the reality of the situation but this person still pays D&D Beyond for their products. They still log into D&D Beyond for their service. License issues be damned, this person has a right to complain on the D&D Beyond forums about issues that occur on D&D Beyond.
Wizards in general isn't going to give a flying pig because they sold the license, they're done. It's up to D&D Beyond as the recipient of said license that if they want a change/alteration to that contract, they need to fight for it.
But what leverage do they have to do so? They aren't the IP holder, and who knows how malleable their contract with WotC is, or how often it gets renegotiated? This isn't a case of calling up your neighbor to ask if you can borrow the old and new set of garden tools instead of just the new. When people without leverage "fight" for something, the end result does not always turn out well.
In 4th Ed, WotC attempted to have their own character builder. Unlike D&D Beyond, they forced errata and changes to 4e for purposes of game 'Balance' on existing characters. After they completely ruined a character 3 times, a character I had managed to get to L16 despite the first 2 character changing alterations force on that character, I gave up on the builder, and 4e in general. I went over to Pathfinder at the time, as did most people I gave with.
If the changes in this book are forced on me, it may be time for me to give up on D&D and go back to Pathfinder. I may think PF2 is far crappier than 5e, but at least they don't force game altering changes across the board on those that don't want them (?yet?) . . .
We get it, but...
DnDBeyond will do what WotC tells them to do.
You are filing your complaint to the wrong people.
Here's the thing though, they aren't.
Sure, that is the reality of the situation but this person still pays D&D Beyond for their products. They still log into D&D Beyond for their service. License issues be damned, this person has a right to complain on the D&D Beyond forums about issues that occur on D&D Beyond.
Wizards in general isn't going to give a flying pig because they sold the license, they're done. It's up to D&D Beyond as the recipient of said license that if they want a change/alteration to that contract, they need to fight for it.
This is not the first time, nor will it be the last time, that this exact same thing has happened, with all the exact same arguments and with the exact same answers. Derailing this thread will not help them.
It's a valid complaint in this thread to discuss those changes and how D&D Beyond will handle those changes specifically how it relates to this book. You have 2000 posts, the person who made that comment has 60. Just because you had the conversation 40 times doesn't mean they have.
In 4th Ed, WotC attempted to have their own character builder. Unlike D&D Beyond, they forced errata and changes to 4e for purposes of game 'Balance' on existing characters. After they completely ruined a character 3 times, a character I had managed to get to L16 despite the first 2 character changing alterations force on that character, I gave up on the builder, and 4e in general. I went over to Pathfinder at the time, as did most people I gave with.
If the changes in this book are forced on me, it may be time for me to give up on D&D and go back to Pathfinder. I may think PF2 is far crappier than 5e, but at least they don't force game altering changes across the board on those that don't want them (?yet?) . . .
We get it, but...
DnDBeyond will do what WotC tells them to do.
You are filing your complaint to the wrong people.
Here's the thing though, they aren't.
Sure, that is the reality of the situation but this person still pays D&D Beyond for their products. They still log into D&D Beyond for their service. License issues be damned, this person has a right to complain on the D&D Beyond forums about issues that occur on D&D Beyond.
Wizards in general isn't going to give a flying pig because they sold the license, they're done. It's up to D&D Beyond as the recipient of said license that if they want a change/alteration to that contract, they need to fight for it.
This is not the first time, nor will it be the last time, that this exact same thing has happened, with all the exact same arguments and with the exact same answers. Derailing this thread will not help them.
It's a valid complaint in this thread to discuss those changes and how D&D Beyond will handle those changes specifically how it relates to this book. You have 2000 posts, the person who made that comment has 60. Just because you had the conversation 40 times doesn't mean they have.
There is literally a thread talking about the Book and how it will be handled on DnDBeyond.
Since I use D&D Beyond and Owlbear.Rodeo to run my sessions online, my sessions will stop until I can find a replacement for D&D Beyond.
What do you need replaced? There's hundreds of online dice rollers and character stuff as well as the work-in-progress-anyway encounter tool stuff can be done the old fashioned way.
I use D&D Beyond exclusively for character creation. I use their Campaigns to share my purchased books (I own everything except Rick and Morty which is just a waste of storage space in my opinion). I now use the Encounter Builder/Combat Tracker also. But the biggest loss will be shared content, and the inability to use the character creator should the racial changes be forced across the board.
Don't get me wrong, I love D&D Beyond, but if the racial changes are Forced on use, the sit will no longer be feasible for me.
I understand that - I'm just asking, why stop your sessions? If you need DDB replaced with another character building tool, you're not going to find (a legal) one - that'd mean stopping altogether then. If you don't need another such tool and are ok with doing things more the old way, you can do that right now and don't need to stop anything.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
DDB is caught between a rock and a hard place, yes. Perhaps if enough people make enough of a stink, DDB will be able to convince Wizards to allow a toggle in this one specific instance. After all, the PHB dragonborn and the Fizban's dragonborn are still considered separate entities despite the one being, for all intents and purposes, a flat override/upgrade of the other.
The man has a right to voice his concerns. There's not a damn thing we, or likely DDB, can do about them, but everybody has a right to voice their concerns. Sometimes I get caught up in my own ideology and forget that, and I'm sorry. And sometimes I will disagree vehemently with someone's concerns, for which case I'm less sorry, but still. I do find myself frustrated and annoyed by all the folks claiming that there's nothing at all good or worthwhile coming from this new direction to the game, but eh. I suppose that's a Yurei problem. Just...an obnoxiously persistent one.
I think one of the oddest aspects of having all the updated races in this book, is that the Core Races feel out of date. It is just strange to update all the optional races and monsters before updating the core of the game.
They updated the Dragonborn in Fizbans, do you think that they will update the others in a similar fashion ahead of 2024 to be in line with these?
I think one of the oddest aspects of having all the updated races in this book, is that the Core Races feel out of date. It is just strange to update all the optional races and monsters before updating the core of the game.
I think one of the oddest aspects of having all the updated races in this book, is that the Core Races feel out of date. It is just strange to update all the optional races and monsters before updating the core of the game.
Could very well be that M3 is a test/experiment to see how folks take to this new paradigm before they commit to it entirely with the core redux in 2024. If the backlash overall is as bad as it often is here on DDB? Maybe they'll back off. Who knows.
DDB is caught between a rock and a hard place, yes. Perhaps if enough people make enough of a stink, DDB will be able to convince Wizards to allow a toggle in this one specific instance. After all, the PHB dragonborn and the Fizban's dragonborn are still considered separate entities despite the one being, for all intents and purposes, a flat override/upgrade of the other.
The man has a right to voice his concerns. There's not a damn thing we, or likely DDB, can do about them, but everybody has a right to voice their concerns. Sometimes I get caught up in my own ideology and forget that, and I'm sorry. And sometimes I will disagree vehemently with someone's concerns, for which case I'm less sorry, but still. I do find myself frustrated and annoyed by all the folks claiming that there's nothing at all good or worthwhile coming from this new direction to the game, but eh. I suppose that's a Yurei problem. Just...an obnoxiously persistent one.
I think they have the right to complain and that those complaints are justified. BUT... there is already a thread just for that discussion.
Edit: But I really don't think that the outcome will be any better than the Errata kerfluffle that just happened last month.
Could very well be that M3 is a test/experiment to see how folks take to this new paradigm before they commit to it entirely with the core redux in 2024. If the backlash overall is as bad as it often is here on DDB? Maybe they'll back off. Who knows.
I don't think they'll back off entirely, but I do think they'll take the feedback from MMM to determine how they make the edits to the core books.
Could very well be that M3 is a test/experiment to see how folks take to this new paradigm before they commit to it entirely with the core redux in 2024. If the backlash overall is as bad as it often is here on DDB? Maybe they'll back off. Who knows.
I don't think they'll back off entirely, but I do think they'll take the feedback from MMM to determine how they make the edits to the core books.
Absolutely, but 2 years is still a really long time.
Could very well be that M3 is a test/experiment to see how folks take to this new paradigm before they commit to it entirely with the core redux in 2024. If the backlash overall is as bad as it often is here on DDB? Maybe they'll back off. Who knows.
I don't think they'll back off entirely, but I do think they'll take the feedback from MMM to determine how they make the edits to the core books.
Absolutely, but 2 years is still a really long time.
I'm pretty sure MMM is not the only product that will come out telegraphing what WotC Project D&D 2024 RED will look like. It's also not "floating an idea". WotC uses UA to float ideas. A hardback is definitive growth and change to the system. I really doubt MMM will be the only product realigning mechanics and lore in the next two years. MMM teases were very clear that "this is the way" stat blocks were going to be handled in the future. I doubt the book is presenting "the way" of monster stat blocks for the future and then "oh, and we're sorta thinking about doing races this way, what do you all think?" for the PC race options. It's going to be equally definitive for the game going forward. Will it be exactly as presented in WotC Project D&D 2024 RED? Maybe or maybe not, but my guess is the final product will be closer to this "new" than the present.
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Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Could very well be that M3 is a test/experiment to see how folks take to this new paradigm before they commit to it entirely with the core redux in 2024. If the backlash overall is as bad as it often is here on DDB? Maybe they'll back off. Who knows.
I don't think they'll back off entirely, but I do think they'll take the feedback from MMM to determine how they make the edits to the core books.
Absolutely, but 2 years is still a really long time.
I'm pretty sure MMM is not the only product that will come out telegraphing what WotC Project D&D 2024 RED will look like. It's also not "floating an idea". WotC uses UA to float ideas. A hardback is definitive growth and change to the system. I really doubt MMM will be the only product realigning mechanics and lore in the next two years. MMM teases were very clear that "this is the way" stat blocks were going to be handled in the future. I doubt the book is presenting "the way" of monster stat blocks for the future and then "oh, and we're sorta thinking about doing races this way, what do you all think?" for the PC race options. It's going to be equally definitive for the game going forward. Will it be exactly as presented in WotC Project D&D 2024 RED? Maybe or maybe not, but my guess is the final product will be closer to this "new" than the present.
This is what I think as well. That is why I suspect we will see more of the core races getting similar updates the way the Dragonborn did to bring them closer to what is in MMM
I think I’ve figured it out. WotC’s MO seems to have been (and will likely continue as):
Throw 💩 at the wall internet, see how it goes.
Do the thing, see how that goes.
Fix it in a later publication, see how that goes.
Consolidate everything.
Rinse & repeat.
They’re counting on:
Being able to “fix it later” to overcome their mistakes.
Being able to consolidate stuff to compensate for the bloat.
Us “buying it anyway” to overcome their shotgun strategy.
Us having memories like goldfish to forget the 🐂💩.
A lot of us here like the changes. If you don't vote with your wallet.
First of all, why did you feel compelled to write that?
Second, I do. It was 5e that pulled me out of a 10 year boycott on all WorC products, and I haven’t spent a dime on WotC content since Tasha’s Midden.
Why did you feel compelled to write your complaint? Could it be because we're on a public forum and having a discussion? You said the changes are shit. I said a lot of people are happy with them.
I wonder if the Racial Feats will get an update in the updated Xanathar's in this set.
Also, With the changes to Sunlight Sensitivity, Trance and Fey Ancestry in MMM, I think Elves will be next in line for an optional update in some upcoming book.
I think I’ve figured it out. WotC’s MO seems to have been (and will likely continue as):
Throw 💩 at the wall internet, see how it goes.
Do the thing, see how that goes.
Fix it in a later publication, see how that goes.
Consolidate everything.
Rinse & repeat.
They’re counting on:
Being able to “fix it later” to overcome their mistakes.
Being able to consolidate stuff to compensate for the bloat.
Us “buying it anyway” to overcome their shotgun strategy.
Us having memories like goldfish to forget the 🐂💩.
As a Magic player for about a decade, I could've told you that. That's how they operate. Change everything about once a season, get feedback, change some of it back. It's not uncommon in the games industry. It necessitates the participation of a lot of people who will gladly (no, not gladly -- reliably) buy and play whatever comes out, and as such its results are largely influenced by said people's opinions, which don't always align with yours, because you don't do that. But the game has never actually been designed to be played that way. There's never been a rule set for D&D that was designed to run completely unmodified using every available piece of content. I mean, it's impossible on its face, right? There's something like a thousand or so different monsters, you can't fight them all in one game. (Though, it might be fun to try...) The game works best with 3-5 players, but there's 13 classes. You couldn't use everything even if you wanted to.
It's frustrating because a lot of us are used to the "live update" or "changing meta" standard of video games or competitive games like Magic, where you have to keep up with every rules change because that's the only way you can actually play the game with other people. But that's not how D&D works, has ever worked, or, I hope, will ever work. You have your Player's Handbook. It still works as well today as it did when it came out, and that's no secret. You can still find games with just that. With newbies who don't want to buy everything, oldheads who don't want to buy everything, or just people who prefer the core rules. If a new piece of content doesn't add value to your game, don't add it to your game. I don't need to tell you this, you already said this is how you do things, I'm just saying it for other people. (It would be great if you could somehow trust that every piece of content released would be a perfect fit for your personal game, just because of its pedigree, but that obviously doesn't make sense, right? See above. So I don't hold it against Wizards.)
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But what leverage do they have to do so? They aren't the IP holder, and who knows how malleable their contract with WotC is, or how often it gets renegotiated? This isn't a case of calling up your neighbor to ask if you can borrow the old and new set of garden tools instead of just the new. When people without leverage "fight" for something, the end result does not always turn out well.
It's a valid complaint in this thread to discuss those changes and how D&D Beyond will handle those changes specifically how it relates to this book. You have 2000 posts, the person who made that comment has 60. Just because you had the conversation 40 times doesn't mean they have.
There is literally a thread talking about the Book and how it will be handled on DnDBeyond.
monsters-of-the-multiverse-on-dnd-beyond
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
I understand that - I'm just asking, why stop your sessions? If you need DDB replaced with another character building tool, you're not going to find (a legal) one - that'd mean stopping altogether then. If you don't need another such tool and are ok with doing things more the old way, you can do that right now and don't need to stop anything.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
DDB is caught between a rock and a hard place, yes. Perhaps if enough people make enough of a stink, DDB will be able to convince Wizards to allow a toggle in this one specific instance. After all, the PHB dragonborn and the Fizban's dragonborn are still considered separate entities despite the one being, for all intents and purposes, a flat override/upgrade of the other.
The man has a right to voice his concerns. There's not a damn thing we, or likely DDB, can do about them, but everybody has a right to voice their concerns. Sometimes I get caught up in my own ideology and forget that, and I'm sorry. And sometimes I will disagree vehemently with someone's concerns, for which case I'm less sorry, but still. I do find myself frustrated and annoyed by all the folks claiming that there's nothing at all good or worthwhile coming from this new direction to the game, but eh. I suppose that's a Yurei problem. Just...an obnoxiously persistent one.
Please do not contact or message me.
I think one of the oddest aspects of having all the updated races in this book, is that the Core Races feel out of date. It is just strange to update all the optional races and monsters before updating the core of the game.
They updated the Dragonborn in Fizbans, do you think that they will update the others in a similar fashion ahead of 2024 to be in line with these?
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
That's what 2024 is being sold as, isn't it?
Yeah, but that is at least a 2 year gap.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
Could very well be that M3 is a test/experiment to see how folks take to this new paradigm before they commit to it entirely with the core redux in 2024. If the backlash overall is as bad as it often is here on DDB? Maybe they'll back off. Who knows.
Please do not contact or message me.
I think they have the right to complain and that those complaints are justified. BUT... there is already a thread just for that discussion.
Edit: But I really don't think that the outcome will be any better than the Errata kerfluffle that just happened last month.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
I don't think they'll back off entirely, but I do think they'll take the feedback from MMM to determine how they make the edits to the core books.
Absolutely, but 2 years is still a really long time.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
I think I’ve figured it out. WotC’s MO seems to have been (and will likely continue as):
wallinternet, see how it goes.They’re counting on:
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
I'm pretty sure MMM is not the only product that will come out telegraphing what WotC Project D&D 2024 RED will look like. It's also not "floating an idea". WotC uses UA to float ideas. A hardback is definitive growth and change to the system. I really doubt MMM will be the only product realigning mechanics and lore in the next two years. MMM teases were very clear that "this is the way" stat blocks were going to be handled in the future. I doubt the book is presenting "the way" of monster stat blocks for the future and then "oh, and we're sorta thinking about doing races this way, what do you all think?" for the PC race options. It's going to be equally definitive for the game going forward. Will it be exactly as presented in WotC Project D&D 2024 RED? Maybe or maybe not, but my guess is the final product will be closer to this "new" than the present.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
A lot of us here like the changes. If you don't vote with your wallet.
This is what I think as well. That is why I suspect we will see more of the core races getting similar updates the way the Dragonborn did to bring them closer to what is in MMM
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
First of all, why did you feel compelled to write that?
Second, I do. It was 5e that pulled me out of a 10 year boycott on all WorC products, and I haven’t spent a dime on WotC content since Tasha’s Midden.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
Why did you feel compelled to write your complaint? Could it be because we're on a public forum and having a discussion? You said the changes are shit. I said a lot of people are happy with them.
I wonder if the Racial Feats will get an update in the updated Xanathar's in this set.
Also, With the changes to Sunlight Sensitivity, Trance and Fey Ancestry in MMM, I think Elves will be next in line for an optional update in some upcoming book.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
As a Magic player for about a decade, I could've told you that. That's how they operate. Change everything about once a season, get feedback, change some of it back. It's not uncommon in the games industry. It necessitates the participation of a lot of people who will gladly (no, not gladly -- reliably) buy and play whatever comes out, and as such its results are largely influenced by said people's opinions, which don't always align with yours, because you don't do that. But the game has never actually been designed to be played that way. There's never been a rule set for D&D that was designed to run completely unmodified using every available piece of content. I mean, it's impossible on its face, right? There's something like a thousand or so different monsters, you can't fight them all in one game. (Though, it might be fun to try...) The game works best with 3-5 players, but there's 13 classes. You couldn't use everything even if you wanted to.
It's frustrating because a lot of us are used to the "live update" or "changing meta" standard of video games or competitive games like Magic, where you have to keep up with every rules change because that's the only way you can actually play the game with other people. But that's not how D&D works, has ever worked, or, I hope, will ever work. You have your Player's Handbook. It still works as well today as it did when it came out, and that's no secret. You can still find games with just that. With newbies who don't want to buy everything, oldheads who don't want to buy everything, or just people who prefer the core rules. If a new piece of content doesn't add value to your game, don't add it to your game. I don't need to tell you this, you already said this is how you do things, I'm just saying it for other people. (It would be great if you could somehow trust that every piece of content released would be a perfect fit for your personal game, just because of its pedigree, but that obviously doesn't make sense, right? See above. So I don't hold it against Wizards.)