Before anything else, yes I know the rule about AOE and stacking, but the more I look into this, the more conflicting opinions I find.
Started running a basic thief, and am looking for new stuff to throw around and set up traps with. The standard is a flask of holy water, either sprinkled or thrown at a fiend/undead, does 2d6 radiant damage. What if I rig up a trap to dump a bucket, or a whole barrel, of holy water? The verbatim reading of the rules would lead to 2d6 dam regardless of volume, but I've seen plenty of other forums arguing about surface contact area and duration regarding acid and poisons, why not the same with holy water and fiends/undead?
I know the simple answer is to talk to my DM for a house rule, but I wanted to get some other opinions first.
Yes, my group has been running into a lot of fiends lately, am thinking of talking our melee meat shield into heaving a holy barrel at the next group of them we see
This is exactly why it doesn't and shouldn't stack. Forget about surface contact areas, that's just silliness. The point is that there are no ways for weapons to easily be made to do exponentially more damage than what they normally do, and holy water shouldn't be an exception.
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Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
In order for the game to be fun, you need competitive choices. When the answer to every fiend encounter is "holy barrel," those encounters get a lot less interesting.
It's always fun to think up those "I win" buttons in a game where you can do anything. You play through that scene in your mind and it's awesome. But then play it 10 more times over the next 10 encounters. D&D does it's best to prevent these kinds of things because they are awesome in session 1 but kill the game by session 4.
OP, how would you expect a GM to react if you proposed using Sovereign Glue to stick multiple swords together in order to raise the damage of your melee attacks?
LyranGuard, knowing my DM, she would smile sweetly, say "sure, as long as you can logically defend your idea", then during our next encounter we would have many "technical difficulties" as she unleashed higher level enemies on us.
It's a little terrifying how quickly she adapts to all of our "what if?" ideas...
holy water is effectively the same as acid when thrown at a fiend/undead. If you rigged a trap using a barrel, your DM would probably give the creature a dexterity saving throw to take half damage, with a trap DC depending in part on an ability check you made when you set up the trap. They could reference DMG suggestions for acid traps and the like to determine how much damage it does.
Now, considering that a barrel holds 40 gallons of liquid, which is 320 flasks worth of holy water costing 25gp per flask... that's 8000gp to fill the barrel. Will you be able to acquire that amount of holy water? Even if you have a cleric or paladin, it takes 25gp powdered silver and 1 hour per flask to create the water.
Now, considering that a barrel holds 40 gallons of liquid, which is 320 flasks worth of holy water costing 25gp per flask... that's 8000gp to fill the barrel. Will you be able to acquire that amount of holy water? Even if you have a cleric or paladin, it takes 25gp powdered silver and 1 hour per flask to create the water.
Other logistical issues:
- no PC is going to be able to "heave" a full barrel, which weighs about 600 pounds, in any effective way. Which leaves traps
- with a small vial or flask, you can fairly easily ensure the vast majority of the volume reaches the target. With a barrel rigged as a trap, or even just tipped over onto a target, most of its contents are going to go to waste as it washes past even on a failed DEX save. So even if your DM rules the damage scales up, it's going to be nothing close to matching the volume 1:1
- any undead or fiend worth rigging a trap like this for, given all the prep that would go into it in terms of both time and treasure, is probably going to have legendary actions and resistances that make the trap ineffective even if it works as intended
As a DM, if you had the resources to put this together, I'd probably allow it. But if you're expecting it to do, like, 20d6 radiant damage, you're going to be sorely disappointed
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Active characters:
Green Hill Sunrise, jaded tabaxi mercenary trapped in the Dark Domains (Battle Master fighter) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
You could do something like drop a fiend in the barrel (if they're small enough), and it'd probably work like falling into a pit of acid, taking like XdY amount of damage per round it starts its turn there. Say 2d10.
naruhoodie, This was more of a thought experiment to see if it was even possible, nothing more. you bring up a good point, and yes our party does have a cleric, but as a thief I can "find" some more on my own given enough time.
but since we're talking numbers now, for that 8000gp we'd be talking about 640d6 damage for a max potential of 3840hp. Now you can do a cost/benefit comparison for your own situation.
Again, strictly academically speaking.
much more realistically you could downsize and break out the holy bucket, not as much damage but much more portable and affordable
Yeah, I think naruhoodie's got the best idea for something like this: dunk them in the barrel, don't throw it or tip it onto them, especially if you've got a melee character in the party with a grapple build or that kind of thing
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Active characters:
Green Hill Sunrise, jaded tabaxi mercenary trapped in the Dark Domains (Battle Master fighter) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
naruhoodie, This was more of a thought experiment to see if it was even possible, nothing more. you bring up a good point, and yes our party does have a cleric, but as a thief I can "find" some more on my own given enough time.
but since we're talking numbers now, for that 8000gp we'd be talking about 640d6 damage for a max potential of 3840hp. Now you can do a cost/benefit comparison for your own situation.
Again, strictly academically speaking.
much more realistically you could downsize and break out the holy bucket, not as much damage but much more portable and affordable
Didnt see the entry from AntonSirius, good point
It definitely wouldn't do 640d6 damage at once. There's a table for improvising damage that suggests 4d10 for stumbling into a vat of acid. Probably that much when first put into the barrel and then 4d10 per round they stay in the barrel.
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Helpful rewriter of Japanese->English translation and delver into software codebases (she/e/they)
If you're dumping it on them, there'll be a lot of waste. You'll miss some, plenty will be blocked by the water already on the creature and harmlessly off, etc. That will waste will increase massively with the amount of holy water.
I'd rule that every time you double the amount of holy water, the damage will increase by the original amount. So for example, 1 flask does 2d6, 2 flasks do 4d6, but you need 4 flasks to do 6d6, 8 flasks for 8d6 etc. Using the above figures, that's 16d6 damage. If you think that's worth 8,000gp, then you're richer than I.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
If you're dumping it on them, there'll be a lot of waste. You'll miss some, plenty will be blocked by the water already on the creature and harmlessly off, etc. That will waste will increase massively with the amount of holy water.
I'd rule that every time you double the amount of holy water, the damage will increase by the original amount. So for example, 1 flask does 2d6, 2 flasks do 4d6, but you need 4 flasks to do 6d6, 8 flasks for 8d6 etc. Using the above figures, that's 8d6 damage. If you think that's worth 8,000gp, then you're richer than I.
That sounds like a good guesstimate to me. Using that method, the most damage that could be done to a fiend/undead by flinging a barrel-full of holy water at it is 16d6 damage, with 256 flasks worth, costing 6400gp.
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Helpful rewriter of Japanese->English translation and delver into software codebases (she/e/they)
Above I think you have seen the range of how people would rule the situation in their game. From no it just does the stated damage to it should do more because of X,Y and Z. To me it shows that different GM styles and game styles can be used in the system. I can say that I have played in both and I prefer the type that has more detail and ability to allow the players to think a bit more to solve problems in ways that are not listed by the GM or the adventure. Having said that all GM's are not wired the same way and can do all things equally well or poorly. In general this is one area I try and cover with new players in my discussions with them in how I run and do not run my game (or play my PC's if I am a player). I do this just to make sure we are on the same page.
In general I can say when younger 11-13, I just did the basic rules (often referred to as NO nowadays or the book does not say so who cares about basic reality) and after that I tended to do more of the what s reasonable based on the rules that govern the game world are. So just because magic it real often times there are limitations on what it can and cannot do. Vary rarely in my games is there a rule that says players of X level can do anything with magic, unless it is a divine PC game.
In the above example I would make a decision on how much of the liquid would possibly impact the target, how easily it would be to deliver it to the target and does the target have any general protection that would interfere with the liquid, ie cloths, armor, etc. And on the spot I would give mods to attack and and estimated damage and provide that to the player and or group. Note: this can be a lot of work for GM's and not every GM has skill in this area of GMing, and there is nothing wrong with that.
I do see issues with strait scaling of the damage saying I have 1000 vials worth so I do 1000x damage and would very very very rarely allow that in the game. I also see potential issues with I can easily make lots of substances X quickly thus I can use lots of it in every situation to solve every problem. As a GM I try and not to be put out when players come up with unique solutions to problems that have taken me hours to create but as I have gotten older I realize I enjoy when players overcome obstacles in any way and I am not a GM that gets my enjoyment from dealing damage to PC's in interesting or unique ways.
I see no problem with this, beyond supply of holy water, as part of a castle defense or otherwise a lair defense. Maybe also as a siege weapon of some sort against an undead army. However, I don't see a party successfully carrying a "bucket" of holy water (bucket's don't have lids) through the wilderness or exploring a dungeon without the spillage and slosh making the stratagem useless, same for a lid with a pail. Seeing this work as a de facto "siege weapon" in my head, I just don't see it practically deployable by a party in close quarters combat. As a "trap", most of the water's going to go to waste, and I think at best you're talking double damage dice from the vial, on the triggering undead, and maybe vial damage on any undead within 5' ... and even that I feel I'm being generous.
Just silver your blade and rely on your sneak attack damage for the fiends and undead. You'll do better spending coin that way than rigging up an elaborate one shot aqua picket.
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Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
If you're dumping it on them, there'll be a lot of waste. You'll miss some, plenty will be blocked by the water already on the creature and harmlessly off, etc. That will waste will increase massively with the amount of holy water.
I'd rule that every time you double the amount of holy water, the damage will increase by the original amount. So for example, 1 flask does 2d6, 2 flasks do 4d6, but you need 4 flasks to do 6d6, 8 flasks for 8d6 etc. Using the above figures, that's 8d6 damage. If you think that's worth 8,000gp, then you're richer than I.
That sounds like a good guesstimate to me. Using that method, the most damage that could be done to a fiend/undead by flinging a barrel-full of holy water at it is 16d6 damage, with 256 flasks worth, costing 6400gp.
Ah, for some reason I forgot to multiply by two, you're right. I've edited it in.
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If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
I know it's an old post but, here's my take on this situation. As I'm trying to manipulate such a situation now. I want to use Catapult(C) with holy water vials (H). C does 3d8 bludgeoning damage with an item up to 5lbs. H's are 1lb each and do 2d6 radiant.
At base lvl 1 w/1H: 3d8 + 2d6. Great for a first lvl spell. Well, the cost of 2 first lvl spells actually, 1 to make the H. Tying 5H together for a 5lb bundle is: 3d8 + 10d6. If you can get the silver to make, buy, or steal them.
I'm starting Curse of Straud as a Shadar-kai grave cleric, rewarded magic initiate feat (wizard) background. For story purposes I'm taking find familiar, as he was brought here against his will from a lvl 8 homebrew filler adventure and is lvl 1 again. Went from Evo/Wiz to cleric. But I want to keep the tressym that I befriended, familared and came with me. Our Ranger has a bear cub, a dispalcer kitten, and a buliwog baby too. Soooo, yeah.
Anyway, when possible use leftover spell slots before a long rest to make H's. The eventual lvl 10 able to C + 25H = 7d8 + 75d6 for something like 265 average. According to the few DnDb rolls I did of it. That's not a likely situation to happen. What is likely is to keep my party stacked with H's for individual use, with the occasional 2-5H random big kaboom via C. With DM approval of course.
I know it's an old post but, here's my take on this situation. As I'm trying to manipulate such a situation now. I want to use Catapult(C) with holy water vials (H). C does 3d8 bludgeoning damage with an item up to 5lbs. H's are 1lb each and do 2d6 radiant.
At base lvl 1 w/1H: 3d8 + 2d6. Great for a first lvl spell. Well, the cost of 2 first lvl spells actually, 1 to make the H. Tying 5H together for a 5lb bundle is: 3d8 + 10d6 2d6.
Holy water doesn't stack, it's like any other simultaneous effect.
Before anything else, yes I know the rule about AOE and stacking, but the more I look into this, the more conflicting opinions I find.
Started running a basic thief, and am looking for new stuff to throw around and set up traps with. The standard is a flask of holy water, either sprinkled or thrown at a fiend/undead, does 2d6 radiant damage. What if I rig up a trap to dump a bucket, or a whole barrel, of holy water? The verbatim reading of the rules would lead to 2d6 dam regardless of volume, but I've seen plenty of other forums arguing about surface contact area and duration regarding acid and poisons, why not the same with holy water and fiends/undead?
I know the simple answer is to talk to my DM for a house rule, but I wanted to get some other opinions first.
Yes, my group has been running into a lot of fiends lately, am thinking of talking our melee meat shield into heaving a holy barrel at the next group of them we see
This is exactly why it doesn't and shouldn't stack. Forget about surface contact areas, that's just silliness. The point is that there are no ways for weapons to easily be made to do exponentially more damage than what they normally do, and holy water shouldn't be an exception.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
In order for the game to be fun, you need competitive choices. When the answer to every fiend encounter is "holy barrel," those encounters get a lot less interesting.
It's always fun to think up those "I win" buttons in a game where you can do anything. You play through that scene in your mind and it's awesome. But then play it 10 more times over the next 10 encounters. D&D does it's best to prevent these kinds of things because they are awesome in session 1 but kill the game by session 4.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
OP, how would you expect a GM to react if you proposed using Sovereign Glue to stick multiple swords together in order to raise the damage of your melee attacks?
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
LyranGuard, knowing my DM, she would smile sweetly, say "sure, as long as you can logically defend your idea", then during our next encounter we would have many "technical difficulties" as she unleashed higher level enemies on us.
It's a little terrifying how quickly she adapts to all of our "what if?" ideas...
holy water is effectively the same as acid when thrown at a fiend/undead. If you rigged a trap using a barrel, your DM would probably give the creature a dexterity saving throw to take half damage, with a trap DC depending in part on an ability check you made when you set up the trap. They could reference DMG suggestions for acid traps and the like to determine how much damage it does.
Now, considering that a barrel holds 40 gallons of liquid, which is 320 flasks worth of holy water costing 25gp per flask... that's 8000gp to fill the barrel. Will you be able to acquire that amount of holy water? Even if you have a cleric or paladin, it takes 25gp powdered silver and 1 hour per flask to create the water.
Helpful rewriter of Japanese->English translation and delver into software codebases (she/e/they)
Other logistical issues:
- no PC is going to be able to "heave" a full barrel, which weighs about 600 pounds, in any effective way. Which leaves traps
- with a small vial or flask, you can fairly easily ensure the vast majority of the volume reaches the target. With a barrel rigged as a trap, or even just tipped over onto a target, most of its contents are going to go to waste as it washes past even on a failed DEX save. So even if your DM rules the damage scales up, it's going to be nothing close to matching the volume 1:1
- any undead or fiend worth rigging a trap like this for, given all the prep that would go into it in terms of both time and treasure, is probably going to have legendary actions and resistances that make the trap ineffective even if it works as intended
As a DM, if you had the resources to put this together, I'd probably allow it. But if you're expecting it to do, like, 20d6 radiant damage, you're going to be sorely disappointed
Active characters:
Green Hill Sunrise, jaded tabaxi mercenary trapped in the Dark Domains (Battle Master fighter)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
You could do something like drop a fiend in the barrel (if they're small enough), and it'd probably work like falling into a pit of acid, taking like XdY amount of damage per round it starts its turn there. Say 2d10.
Helpful rewriter of Japanese->English translation and delver into software codebases (she/e/they)
naruhoodie, This was more of a thought experiment to see if it was even possible, nothing more. you bring up a good point, and yes our party does have a cleric, but as a thief I can "find" some more on my own given enough time.
but since we're talking numbers now, for that 8000gp we'd be talking about 640d6 damage for a max potential of 3840hp. Now you can do a cost/benefit comparison for your own situation.
Again, strictly academically speaking.
much more realistically you could downsize and break out the holy bucket, not as much damage but much more portable and affordable
Didnt see the entry from AntonSirius, good point
Yeah, I think naruhoodie's got the best idea for something like this: dunk them in the barrel, don't throw it or tip it onto them, especially if you've got a melee character in the party with a grapple build or that kind of thing
Active characters:
Green Hill Sunrise, jaded tabaxi mercenary trapped in the Dark Domains (Battle Master fighter)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Filing this idea under "stupidly expensive ways to interrogate fiends"...
It definitely wouldn't do 640d6 damage at once. There's a table for improvising damage that suggests 4d10 for stumbling into a vat of acid. Probably that much when first put into the barrel and then 4d10 per round they stay in the barrel.
Helpful rewriter of Japanese->English translation and delver into software codebases (she/e/they)
If you're dumping it on them, there'll be a lot of waste. You'll miss some, plenty will be blocked by the water already on the creature and harmlessly off, etc. That will waste will increase massively with the amount of holy water.
I'd rule that every time you double the amount of holy water, the damage will increase by the original amount. So for example, 1 flask does 2d6, 2 flasks do 4d6, but you need 4 flasks to do 6d6, 8 flasks for 8d6 etc. Using the above figures, that's 16d6 damage. If you think that's worth 8,000gp, then you're richer than I.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
That sounds like a good guesstimate to me. Using that method, the most damage that could be done to a fiend/undead by flinging a barrel-full of holy water at it is 16d6 damage, with 256 flasks worth, costing 6400gp.
Helpful rewriter of Japanese->English translation and delver into software codebases (she/e/they)
Above I think you have seen the range of how people would rule the situation in their game. From no it just does the stated damage to it should do more because of X,Y and Z. To me it shows that different GM styles and game styles can be used in the system. I can say that I have played in both and I prefer the type that has more detail and ability to allow the players to think a bit more to solve problems in ways that are not listed by the GM or the adventure. Having said that all GM's are not wired the same way and can do all things equally well or poorly. In general this is one area I try and cover with new players in my discussions with them in how I run and do not run my game (or play my PC's if I am a player). I do this just to make sure we are on the same page.
In general I can say when younger 11-13, I just did the basic rules (often referred to as NO nowadays or the book does not say so who cares about basic reality) and after that I tended to do more of the what s reasonable based on the rules that govern the game world are. So just because magic it real often times there are limitations on what it can and cannot do. Vary rarely in my games is there a rule that says players of X level can do anything with magic, unless it is a divine PC game.
In the above example I would make a decision on how much of the liquid would possibly impact the target, how easily it would be to deliver it to the target and does the target have any general protection that would interfere with the liquid, ie cloths, armor, etc. And on the spot I would give mods to attack and and estimated damage and provide that to the player and or group. Note: this can be a lot of work for GM's and not every GM has skill in this area of GMing, and there is nothing wrong with that.
I do see issues with strait scaling of the damage saying I have 1000 vials worth so I do 1000x damage and would very very very rarely allow that in the game. I also see potential issues with I can easily make lots of substances X quickly thus I can use lots of it in every situation to solve every problem. As a GM I try and not to be put out when players come up with unique solutions to problems that have taken me hours to create but as I have gotten older I realize I enjoy when players overcome obstacles in any way and I am not a GM that gets my enjoyment from dealing damage to PC's in interesting or unique ways.
MDC
I see no problem with this, beyond supply of holy water, as part of a castle defense or otherwise a lair defense. Maybe also as a siege weapon of some sort against an undead army. However, I don't see a party successfully carrying a "bucket" of holy water (bucket's don't have lids) through the wilderness or exploring a dungeon without the spillage and slosh making the stratagem useless, same for a lid with a pail. Seeing this work as a de facto "siege weapon" in my head, I just don't see it practically deployable by a party in close quarters combat. As a "trap", most of the water's going to go to waste, and I think at best you're talking double damage dice from the vial, on the triggering undead, and maybe vial damage on any undead within 5' ... and even that I feel I'm being generous.
Just silver your blade and rely on your sneak attack damage for the fiends and undead. You'll do better spending coin that way than rigging up an elaborate one shot aqua picket.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
always game for loading up on holy water in creative ways.
Ah, for some reason I forgot to multiply by two, you're right. I've edited it in.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
I know it's an old post but, here's my take on this situation. As I'm trying to manipulate such a situation now. I want to use Catapult(C) with holy water vials (H). C does 3d8 bludgeoning damage with an item up to 5lbs. H's are 1lb each and do 2d6 radiant.
At base lvl 1 w/1H: 3d8 + 2d6. Great for a first lvl spell. Well, the cost of 2 first lvl spells actually, 1 to make the H. Tying 5H together for a 5lb bundle is: 3d8 + 10d6. If you can get the silver to make, buy, or steal them.
I'm starting Curse of Straud as a Shadar-kai grave cleric, rewarded magic initiate feat (wizard) background. For story purposes I'm taking find familiar, as he was brought here against his will from a lvl 8 homebrew filler adventure and is lvl 1 again. Went from Evo/Wiz to cleric. But I want to keep the tressym that I befriended, familared and came with me. Our Ranger has a bear cub, a dispalcer kitten, and a buliwog baby too. Soooo, yeah.
Anyway, when possible use leftover spell slots before a long rest to make H's. The eventual lvl 10 able to C + 25H = 7d8 + 75d6 for something like 265 average. According to the few DnDb rolls I did of it. That's not a likely situation to happen. What is likely is to keep my party stacked with H's for individual use, with the occasional 2-5H random big kaboom via C. With DM approval of course.
Super curious how others feel about this one.
Holy water doesn't stack, it's like any other simultaneous effect.