I'm looking to make a hyper aware character. High perception, survival, investigation, etc. So ideally I'd like to take expertise.
The character in question would also be taking some divination spells, locate object, locate creature, etc. But they would also be a stealthy character, probably using a bow, I'm thinking of going elf or half elf.
So which do you think would be better? A bard or rogue? I am planning on multiclassing, maybe into ranger for favoured enemy and favoured terrain. Divination wizard was suggested too, as they have all the divination spells.
If you are not interested in inspiring others or using persuasion/doing party face stuff, then I'd go with rogue over bard. Bard requires CHA, and if you are looking to multiclass ranger or wizard, then you are going Wisdom or Intelligence, so it's 'better' not to have to split your spellcasting between multiple ability scores if you don't have to.
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Thank you for your time and please have a very pleasant day.
Yeah I would only go for one pure spellcasting class as it'll get a bit MAD otherwise.
Looking at it, Druid actually gets me a lot of the spells i want. So if i multiclassed scout rogue and grassland druid i would get invisibility and pass without a trace, making for a good sneaky build. Not to mention wild shape. Wood Elf would work for race. Born in the woodland, but his curiosity drew him to the big city when there were masses of people. He soon learnt of other settlements and during the conversation was asked to deliver a letter. He was paid handsomely for his work and so found his calling as a messenger.
Edit: Or maybe a Halfling? The boost to speed granted by scout will cancel out the -5 speed compared to wood elf. Although halflings don't get darkvision, but it is a druid spell... So much choice.
Edit Edit: Or what about shepherd druid? For the summons. The options!
Rogue Scout/Druid sounds like a fun multiclass and one that you don't see too often. It also allows you to use a longbow if you play as an elf. With Tasha's alternative rules for Ranger you can also just go with that.
That said, remember that you don't really need expertise in perception to by hyperaware. Just having proficiency and a high wisdom puts you leaps and bounds ahead of most mortals. Oh and if you really want more Expertise there's always the Skill Expert feat. ;)
I think Rogue/Druid is not seen often because it's basically trying to emulate the archetype that Ranger already inhabits. It seems to me the ideal build for this character is one level in Rogue and then the rest in Ranger. You'll get a bunch of skills, 3 expertises, you still get the spells you want, and staying mostly in one class will get you feats sooner to pick up stuff like Alert. You will also be much better with your bow, whereas Rogue/Druid is very split in its focus (when it comes to combat) and each half is going to be holding back the other.
So, which do you think would be better? A bard or rogue? I am planning on multiclassing, maybe into ranger for favored enemy and favored terrain. Divination wizard was suggested too, as they have all the divination spells.
I was going to say either of those classes are good options but don't exclude ranger as an option either. A ranger certainly can fulfil your skill wish list pretty well. The rogue might miss a bit on your divination spells though.
I think Rogue/Druid is not seen often because it's basically trying to emulate the archetype that Ranger already inhabits. It seems to me the ideal build for this character is one level in Rogue and then the rest in Ranger. You'll get a bunch of skills, 3 expertises, you still get the spells you want, and staying mostly in one class will get you feats sooner to pick up stuff like Alert. You will also be much better with your bow, whereas Rogue/Druid is very split in its focus (when it comes to combat) and each half is going to be holding back the other.
If you want the most skillful Ranger you probably want to start out as a rogue for three levels before you take any levels in ranger. That way you get four extra skills and four extra expertises.
I'm not sure where you folks are getting all those instances of Expertise in groups of three and four. Rogue gets two at first level and two more at sixth. Bard gets two each at third and tenth. I also don't know where Lostwhile fishing is getting "four extra skills" from either; rogues get a base four proficiencies to a Ranger's three so that's only one "extra" to begin with. A bard going into College of Lore gets an extra three proficiencies at third level but no additional instances of Expertise, and they only get their first two Expertise at that third level. Both rogue and ranger each grant one additional proficiency from their respective class lists upon multiclassing into them so that doesn't grant any "extra" either way, though as I already said rogues get one more than rangers if you start out as a rogue.
Rogue 1/Ranger 1 will have a total of five skill proficiencies (plus any from background) and Expertise in two. This assumes taking the rogue level first, so your Expertise cannot be in a skill from ranger that is unavailable from either rogue or your background as you don't have access to it when you get the Expertise.
Bard 3/Ranger 1 will have four skill proficiencies (plus background), seven at the third level of bard if go college of Lore, and Expertise in two of them upon taking the third level in Bard.
Ranger gets some spells for tracking/hunting specific targets, though it should be noted that locate creature/object spells require you to be within a thousand feet of your target for it to have any effect (that's under a fifth of a mile or a third of a kilometer, for reference), so they're only good for pinpointing your quarry when you're already within less than twice the maximum range of a shot with a longbow, not for long range tracking. Another thing worth noting is that locate object is a second level spell and locate creature is fourth level; bards are going to get access to those much sooner than rangers because the latter are not full casters. On the flipside of that, rangers focus on Wisdom and will be more suited to Perception and Survival to begin with for general tracking whereas bards will be wasting a lot of potential not investing more heavily into Charisma.
If you're looking to specifically focus on situational awareness and the tracking/hunting ability, I would strongly recommend starting with a level of rogue then branching into ranger. If you choose a background that grants proficiency in Survival choose it as your second Expertise after Perception for focus on hunting/tracking, otherwise Stealth would probably be best. You should also at least consider taking a second level of rogue for the Cunning Action, which makes you much more mobile and stealthy by allowing you to dash or hide as a bonus action in addition to your normal move to quickly sneak up on your quarry once you've found them (also the option to disengage as a bonus action, while not specifically related to the theme we're addressing, is incredibly useful in many situations). Bard is a great "toolbox" class but it isn't suited as well toward what it seems you're going for here.
Rogue 1/Ranger 1 will have a total of five skill proficiencies (plus any from background) and Expertise in two. This assumes taking the rogue level first, so your Expertise cannot be in a skill from ranger that is unavailable from either rogue or your background as you don't have access to it when you get the Expertise.
Yeah, this is the combo I was recommending. You get a lot out of one level of Rogue - I wouldn't go further for this concept unless you really want Scout for effectively two more Expertise skills. And in that case you might be better off just going full Rogue and not worrying about spells. Note that if Optional Class Features are on the table, you can take Deft Explorer and Ranger 1 for Expertise in a third skill.
I'll say in my anecdotal experience, the "locate" spells have rarely come into play in my games due to their short range, and not for lack of trying. Great if you're in a dense city and your quarry just escaped into a crowd, not so great if you're tracking something through miles of wilderness. Hunter's Mark can cover a good portion of either of those situations.
And one last point - many of these features are going to be redundant. D&D presents you with challenges, and gives you many tools to take those challenges on. It can be easy when theorycrafting to build a character that tries to have every solution to a single problem when often you really only need one. You may find that having four ways to track someone isn't actually going to be much more successful than having one or two, but the cost is that you're not good at much else.
I'm not sure where you folks are getting all those instances of Expertise in groups of three and four.
It's quite obvious if you read the rules for the classes and subclasses proposed as well as the rules for multiclassing. Starting out as a Rogue instead of as a Ranger gives you four skills instead of three, so that's one extra skill. At Rogue level 1 you get Expertise in two skills so that's two. At Rogue level 3 when you pick Scout you get proficiency in Nature and Survival and you also get Expertise in those two skills so that's three skills and for Expertise. Multiclassing to Ranger gives you and extra skill from the Ranger list of skills which makes four skills and four Expertise.
Oh, I forgot, if you use Deft Explorer from Tasha's you get Expertise in one of your skills so that's actually five. :)
I'll grant that I didn't account for the Scout subclass applying there but that "extra" proficiency assumes that a tracker type character is going at least two levels without proficiency in Survival at the very least, which makes them ineffective as such until then. A rogue can pick that up as part of a background at first level and the only reason to not do so is if the game is starting at third level or above so you don't have to be a tracker that doesn't know how to track for two levels. You do have a valid point for the Expertise though, so that is a worthwhile reason to consider the extra couple levels.
I'll grant that I didn't account for the Scout subclass applying there but that "extra" proficiency assumes that a tracker type character is going at least two levels without proficiency in Survival at the very least, which makes them ineffective as such until then. A rogue can pick that up as part of a background at first level and the only reason to not do so is if the game is starting at third level or above so you don't have to be a tracker that doesn't know how to track for two levels. You do have a valid point for the Expertise though, so that is a worthwhile reason to consider the extra couple levels.
Only you can be held accountable for what you assume. You implied that you couldn't get that many extra skills and expertises and I merely demonstrated that you are factually, objectively wrong.
As for why a player chooses not to take Survival until level three, the reasons are as many as they are varied. It could be for optimization, it could be for RP reasons it could, as you yourself mentions, be because the game starts at level 3. None of those reasons change the bone-hard fact that it can be done, though.
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I'm looking to make a hyper aware character. High perception, survival, investigation, etc. So ideally I'd like to take expertise.
The character in question would also be taking some divination spells, locate object, locate creature, etc. But they would also be a stealthy character, probably using a bow, I'm thinking of going elf or half elf.
So which do you think would be better? A bard or rogue? I am planning on multiclassing, maybe into ranger for favoured enemy and favoured terrain. Divination wizard was suggested too, as they have all the divination spells.
If you are not interested in inspiring others or using persuasion/doing party face stuff, then I'd go with rogue over bard. Bard requires CHA, and if you are looking to multiclass ranger or wizard, then you are going Wisdom or Intelligence, so it's 'better' not to have to split your spellcasting between multiple ability scores if you don't have to.
Thank you for your time and please have a very pleasant day.
Yeah I would only go for one pure spellcasting class as it'll get a bit MAD otherwise.
Looking at it, Druid actually gets me a lot of the spells i want. So if i multiclassed scout rogue and grassland druid i would get invisibility and pass without a trace, making for a good sneaky build. Not to mention wild shape. Wood Elf would work for race. Born in the woodland, but his curiosity drew him to the big city when there were masses of people. He soon learnt of other settlements and during the conversation was asked to deliver a letter. He was paid handsomely for his work and so found his calling as a messenger.
Edit: Or maybe a Halfling? The boost to speed granted by scout will cancel out the -5 speed compared to wood elf. Although halflings don't get darkvision, but it is a druid spell... So much choice.
Edit Edit: Or what about shepherd druid? For the summons. The options!
Rogue Scout/Druid sounds like a fun multiclass and one that you don't see too often. It also allows you to use a longbow if you play as an elf. With Tasha's alternative rules for Ranger you can also just go with that.
That said, remember that you don't really need expertise in perception to by hyperaware. Just having proficiency and a high wisdom puts you leaps and bounds ahead of most mortals. Oh and if you really want more Expertise there's always the Skill Expert feat. ;)
I think Rogue/Druid is not seen often because it's basically trying to emulate the archetype that Ranger already inhabits. It seems to me the ideal build for this character is one level in Rogue and then the rest in Ranger. You'll get a bunch of skills, 3 expertises, you still get the spells you want, and staying mostly in one class will get you feats sooner to pick up stuff like Alert. You will also be much better with your bow, whereas Rogue/Druid is very split in its focus (when it comes to combat) and each half is going to be holding back the other.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
I was going to say either of those classes are good options but don't exclude ranger as an option either. A ranger certainly can fulfil your skill wish list pretty well. The rogue might miss a bit on your divination spells though.
Fizikal
For the King!
If you want the most skillful Ranger you probably want to start out as a rogue for three levels before you take any levels in ranger. That way you get four extra skills and four extra expertises.
I'm not sure where you folks are getting all those instances of Expertise in groups of three and four. Rogue gets two at first level and two more at sixth. Bard gets two each at third and tenth. I also don't know where Lostwhile fishing is getting "four extra skills" from either; rogues get a base four proficiencies to a Ranger's three so that's only one "extra" to begin with. A bard going into College of Lore gets an extra three proficiencies at third level but no additional instances of Expertise, and they only get their first two Expertise at that third level. Both rogue and ranger each grant one additional proficiency from their respective class lists upon multiclassing into them so that doesn't grant any "extra" either way, though as I already said rogues get one more than rangers if you start out as a rogue.
Rogue 1/Ranger 1 will have a total of five skill proficiencies (plus any from background) and Expertise in two. This assumes taking the rogue level first, so your Expertise cannot be in a skill from ranger that is unavailable from either rogue or your background as you don't have access to it when you get the Expertise.
Bard 3/Ranger 1 will have four skill proficiencies (plus background), seven at the third level of bard if go college of Lore, and Expertise in two of them upon taking the third level in Bard.
Ranger gets some spells for tracking/hunting specific targets, though it should be noted that locate creature/object spells require you to be within a thousand feet of your target for it to have any effect (that's under a fifth of a mile or a third of a kilometer, for reference), so they're only good for pinpointing your quarry when you're already within less than twice the maximum range of a shot with a longbow, not for long range tracking. Another thing worth noting is that locate object is a second level spell and locate creature is fourth level; bards are going to get access to those much sooner than rangers because the latter are not full casters. On the flipside of that, rangers focus on Wisdom and will be more suited to Perception and Survival to begin with for general tracking whereas bards will be wasting a lot of potential not investing more heavily into Charisma.
If you're looking to specifically focus on situational awareness and the tracking/hunting ability, I would strongly recommend starting with a level of rogue then branching into ranger. If you choose a background that grants proficiency in Survival choose it as your second Expertise after Perception for focus on hunting/tracking, otherwise Stealth would probably be best. You should also at least consider taking a second level of rogue for the Cunning Action, which makes you much more mobile and stealthy by allowing you to dash or hide as a bonus action in addition to your normal move to quickly sneak up on your quarry once you've found them (also the option to disengage as a bonus action, while not specifically related to the theme we're addressing, is incredibly useful in many situations). Bard is a great "toolbox" class but it isn't suited as well toward what it seems you're going for here.
Yeah, this is the combo I was recommending. You get a lot out of one level of Rogue - I wouldn't go further for this concept unless you really want Scout for effectively two more Expertise skills. And in that case you might be better off just going full Rogue and not worrying about spells. Note that if Optional Class Features are on the table, you can take Deft Explorer and Ranger 1 for Expertise in a third skill.
I'll say in my anecdotal experience, the "locate" spells have rarely come into play in my games due to their short range, and not for lack of trying. Great if you're in a dense city and your quarry just escaped into a crowd, not so great if you're tracking something through miles of wilderness. Hunter's Mark can cover a good portion of either of those situations.
And one last point - many of these features are going to be redundant. D&D presents you with challenges, and gives you many tools to take those challenges on. It can be easy when theorycrafting to build a character that tries to have every solution to a single problem when often you really only need one. You may find that having four ways to track someone isn't actually going to be much more successful than having one or two, but the cost is that you're not good at much else.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
It's quite obvious if you read the rules for the classes and subclasses proposed as well as the rules for multiclassing. Starting out as a Rogue instead of as a Ranger gives you four skills instead of three, so that's one extra skill. At Rogue level 1 you get Expertise in two skills so that's two. At Rogue level 3 when you pick Scout you get proficiency in Nature and Survival and you also get Expertise in those two skills so that's three skills and for Expertise. Multiclassing to Ranger gives you and extra skill from the Ranger list of skills which makes four skills and four Expertise.
Oh, I forgot, if you use Deft Explorer from Tasha's you get Expertise in one of your skills so that's actually five. :)
I'll grant that I didn't account for the Scout subclass applying there but that "extra" proficiency assumes that a tracker type character is going at least two levels without proficiency in Survival at the very least, which makes them ineffective as such until then. A rogue can pick that up as part of a background at first level and the only reason to not do so is if the game is starting at third level or above so you don't have to be a tracker that doesn't know how to track for two levels. You do have a valid point for the Expertise though, so that is a worthwhile reason to consider the extra couple levels.
Only you can be held accountable for what you assume. You implied that you couldn't get that many extra skills and expertises and I merely demonstrated that you are factually, objectively wrong.
As for why a player chooses not to take Survival until level three, the reasons are as many as they are varied. It could be for optimization, it could be for RP reasons it could, as you yourself mentions, be because the game starts at level 3. None of those reasons change the bone-hard fact that it can be done, though.