WotC has expressed an interest in their new COO/CEO hires, of being a self contained "live service company". One of the people they hired was the former creator and marketer of the Candy Crush saga.
If WotC decides to drop DnD:B and make their own proprietary and trademarked system for online sales, do we still get to keep our books through DnD:B? Ala when EPIC/EA decided to pull it's games off steam, you could no longer play those games, if they were not already installed on your system. I am not saying this will happen, only that it's obviously happened in the past, and I want to know how I can back up my purchases with at least full color PDFs. In case WotC decides to stop allowing DnD:B to sell their content, and strips them of the right to even allow the downloading of product.
It's up to WotC. Not even they know the answer at this point, I think. While you read what I'm about to say, bear in mind that WotC could easily decide to honour the purchases and transfer those rights to their new (hypothetical) platform - you may not be able to access them via DDB, but you'll still have access to them on their site instead. Indeed, I'd bet that, if this scenario happened, they'd do exactly that. It buys goodwill, it avoids the massive and inevitable upset of they screw these customers over, and they won't be losing much anyway - all the content will be for an old edition anyway. When UV collapsed, Google Movies offered everyone who had accounts and films with UV free copies of those on their Google accounts. They get a wave of potentially new customers who might buy more, while giving away films that probably wouldn't have been bought by those customers anyway. WotC will be in the same position.
DDB is a business and needs to make money. If they can't sell D&D content, they won't be getting money coming in, and will eventually have to close their servers. You will not be able to download content from that point. There are ways of transferring files between devices, so it's not insurmountable. As previously mentioned, I believe that WotC would see sense and transfer your previous purchases to themselves in that scenario in order to win your bucks for future purchases. I may be wrong, but it makes sense. However, DDB would close down and your content here would not be accessible via this site. Or WotC may just take it over and we won't see any difference. Who knows. However, I'd have the possibility that the provider could be cut in mind when buying stuff that is hosted rather than distributed like DDB. Still, I think it quite unlikely that you will lose your books and other paid content (homebrew is another thing).
As for PDFs, thje mandatory warning is that they are certainly illegal to distribute, and quite likely to even create them.
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If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
I'm curious what the number of active/invested DDB users (not talking number of accounts or even active accounts, I mean there are super users of this board who claim to really be playing 3.5 in their games, so I mean users with significant holdings of 5e materials here on DDB) is in proportion to the number WotC estimates are "active" players of the D&D brand. The cost benefit of "honoring" D&D Beyond is largely dependant on that figure.
That said, a 6.0 going "full digital" based on recent hires is speculation. Hasbro _likes_ what WotC is doing _and_ would like them to be more successful in the digital arena than say Dark Alliance. My guess is you're going to see WotC branding over future AAA releases from folks like Larian etc. before you see WotC knifing presumably beneficial relationships with the likes of DDB, Roll20 and FantasyGrounds. I'd say if they were smart, they may even make their license more accessible to VTT developers, sorta like a SRD that aggressively works better in the present environment where content is almost literally a dime a dozen whereas really good tools are a anyone's guess market. And I don't see anyone telling WotC to literally stop the presses in the print work department.
A Microsoft of the calibers acquired doesn't specialize necessarily in "in house, all others be damned" development. What they definitely do bring to the table is spades is the ability to work with a broad range of partners at a scale Hasbro largely doesn't have outside of it's media liaisons (and Microsoft alum can accelerate that arm's tempo). People within WotC are being moved higher up within Hasbro. Those people are likely not going to give marching orders to new hires that sound like "I want you to undo what I invested a good portion of my career in at WotC."
Not gonna lie, but even suggesting that a major company in 2022 might, as a token of good will, give the customers of their potential rival, "Free copies" of their rightful IP, is at best laughable, and at worst, naive and foolish. I mean, that's the president suggesting we drink bleach to combat COVID levels of silly. I don't doubt with every fiber of my being that the people who think of DnD as a "Live service" wouldn't JUMP at the chance to force users to re-purchase their libraries. DnD:B literally did just that, with the express consent and permission of WotC, if your remember. Now you seem to literally think WoTC wouldn't force us to do it all over again, but would literally give up 90% of their product for free because a competitor sold it too them first? Even though they took a percentage cut of the sale?
WotC has expressed an interest in their new COO/CEO hires, of being a self contained "live service company". One of the people they hired was the former creator and marketer of the Candy Crush saga.
If WotC decides to drop DnD:B and make their own proprietary and trademarked system for online sales, do we still get to keep our books through DnD:B?
Depends on the details of WotC's contract with DDB. DDB would certainly not want to revoke your purchases because it would be a disaster for them.
I don't doubt with every fiber of my being that the people who think of DnD as a "Live service" wouldn't JUMP at the chance to force users to re-purchase their libraries. DnD:B literally did just that, with the express consent and permission of WotC, if your remember.
What in tarnation are you on about?
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I think they could end or change their licensing model which would mean that platforms like ddb, roll20 and so on couldn‘t sell watch stuff anymore.
Maybe they could still sell the old 5e things and not the new 5.5/6e edition material, who knows.
They had a picture of a ddb character sheet in one of the last Surveys where they hinted at a in-house vtt or platform. So maybe they will buy ddb? There also seems to be a team at ddb that is working on something we don‘t know about yet.
one of the ddb tech guys referred to it as a „game engine“ whatever that means.
I guess we have to wait, hope and see.
I have everything on ddb and would very much like to keep and use it…
4E's digital resources were kept up well into 5E, and were only taken down because of technical reasons beyond WotC's control. WotC is, by and large, fairly permissive when it comes to previous editions. The issue with 5E resources/products/services in a future 6E era is unlikely to be WotC trying to monetize them somehow; rather, it's the other way around - who is going to maintain these things if/when a large majority of D&D players switches to 6E and there's no viable revenue to be generated from 5E anymore? I don't see Fandom or some other 3rd party keeping the servers running for a rapidly dwindling customer base. I'm sure enough there will be a transition period allowing source material to be downloaded in some way (likely not a convenient one though), but keeping the tools running isn't likely.
That said, signs so far for 2024 are not that we'll be getting a new edition by then. An overhaul of 5E, yes, but no 6E. I wouldn't start panicking yet.
4E's digital resources were kept up well into 5E, and were only taken down because of technical reasons beyond WotC's control. WotC is, by and large, fairly permissive when it comes to previous editions. The issue with 5E resources/products/services in a future 6E era is unlikely to be WotC trying to monetize them somehow; rather, it's the other way around - who is going to maintain these things if/when a large majority of D&D players switches to 6E and there's no viable revenue to be generated from 5E anymore? I don't see Fandom or some other 3rd party keeping the servers running for a rapidly dwindling customer base. I'm sure enough there will be a transition period allowing source material to be downloaded in some way (likely not a convenient one though), but keeping the tools running isn't likely.
That said, signs so far for 2024 are not that we'll be getting a new edition by then. An overhaul of 5E, yes, but no 6E. I wouldn't start panicking yet.
It's all tea leaves, and weakly brewed conjecture tea leaves at that; but when one of the D&D journo's who gets access to press events asked a question about whether MMM would lead to updates to the SRD, there was much hand-wringing ... among folks who didn't realize the reason MMM would lead to no changes in the SRD is because nothing in the MMM exists in the SRD. That said, within the hand-wringing there was speculation WotC would "abandon" 5e and all the SRD based developers by not creating a SRD or updating the existing SRD for WOTC PROJEKT D&D 2024 GOLD or whatever comes after that. So you'd have WotC D&D which may or may not have an in house digital toolset, and no SRD for open gaming license content, and then you might have something like what I called 5eBeyond where you'd have a 3rd party industry around the legacy 5e. I don't see that coming, but I think _some_ folks see WotC's ownership of D&D as something similar to that of an abusive relationship or something and call things like Tasha's options for ASIs eventually becoming the standard for future race builds "gaslighting" and the like. Couple that sentiment with those who misread Orwell to describe erata or loosening of "canon" and you got a whole bunch of "those" types on the internet who see a rationale for the worst possible outcome whenever they see a change in executive leadership at WotC (changes mind you which usually involve WotC executives moving into a broader role over Hasbro's entirety). I mean look at the YouTubers reacting to the activist investors representing 2% shareholders wanting to stuff Hasbro's board with boardmembers aligned with this 2% shareholder and from there spin WotC away from Hasbro as if WotC's existence is keeping Hasbro's share price down. In the TTRPG D&D conversation space, you've got a number of people taking up not insignificant bandwidth who really don't know what they're talking about.
Anycase, in their follow up, OP seems to claiming DDB's marketplace "requiring" users to "re-buy their books" seems to be at the heart of this effort to buzz the rumor that vendors like DDB are to be stripped of their ability to operate by WotC in short order of I guess the arrival of WOTC PROJEKT D&D 2024 GOLD or a ruleset further down the line. Would a Whatever Edition put out by WotC but no longer in partnership with D&D Beyond (and maybe it's VTT partners too) hurt DDB? Probably, as DDB wouldn't be a go to place for the "latest and greatest" official D&D content presented as part of a digital integrated toolset for character management and whatever other tools they ultimately produce in robust form. DDB would have to adapt, probably after clarifying their rights with WotC evolving into something like a 5eBeyond in partnership with all the SRD-based developers similarly cut off from this alleged worst case D&D Iron Curtain. I don't see any reason to think that possibility is any more or less likely than the chicken little sentiment. But I also don't feel like I'm in an abusive relationship when I buy products from WotC so my perspective is different from that of the alarmist.
It's basically yet another "what happens to all the stuff I paid for if WotC moves onto another edition without DDB, or what happens to my legacy edition stuff if DDB sticks with WotC and has to maintain a new edition as well as the legacy stuff?" Using recent executive hires (ignoring the promotions) and the pending 2024 thing.
For hopefully obvious reasons, staff here are not able to talk about details of contracts between D&D Beyond and Wizards of the Coast.
I can assure you though that we have no plans of disappearing, and no plans to remove access to purchased content.
We have many plans for the future, and are continuing to discuss those with our partners.
I know this amounts to, "It's gonna be ok - trust me!"
As for there being a digital only edition of D&D? I mean, who knows? Maybe a spin-off project? It's REALLY tricky to try to tell what the future may hold, or what ideas people may have. Any discussions about such things are 100% conjecture though.
I really want to point out to everyone generally how these things work and why your stuff will be safe. I don't know what the contract WotC has with DDB, but I can tell you it probably isn't "You're entire company is boned as soon as our whim says so."
DDB exists because they wanted to offer a service in partnership with WotC. This is why you don't get a physical book when you buy something and can't use your physical purchase to get something out of DDB. It generally lets WotC double dip purchases, because one is from Barnes & Noble and the other is from DDB. The providers make some money, and WotC makes the rest.
IF, and that's a big IF, WotC went to 6e and didn't continue their contract with DDB (which would be crazy), they'd lose the chance to make more money by yanking DDB's ability to make sales. This is in part why you can buy PDF's of the other books from DM's Guild. It's an extra source of income.
The beauty of the WotC and DDB relationship is that WotC doesn't front ANY cost. Servers? That's DDB. Develoupers? That's DDB. WotC literally doesn't want to handle the digital products because it can limit / slow their ability to design. If DDB can't figure out how to make Boons work 6 years later, there's no skin off WotC's back. It's not their job to make digital design easy. It's to make roleplaying evocative.
This means that you'd only lose your stuff if DDB shuts down or loses too much money to remain operating. That's generally in the agreement every time you buy something here.
Besides that, 5e is the most popular version of D&D ever. They don't want to scrap their golden goose. 3e had the problem of bloat which changed too much stuff and they had to patch it. 5e has a change in direction, but not an over-complication. This means we probably won't even get a proper 5.5 so much as a fixed PHB. A PHB with the adjusted ASI's, a fixed Beast Master Ranger, and maybe q few races and subclasses swapped here and there. I also strongly suspect that'll be when we get a few things that hint at other styles of game like Spelljammer.
Trust me, I love to theorycraft about 5.5, or 6e, but there isn't really much call for either.
Thank you, may I presume you don't speak for the company though? I appreciate your efforts to tamp down my cynicism regarding American Corporate policy in the 21st century.
I have zero reason right now to produce any ill will towards DND:B. I love your product and have completely shifted into this modern design of DnD. It makes my players, and my job, a lot easier and gives us a better experience overall. My concern was the shift in leadership by WotC to a almost Bobby Kotick style leadership team (Williams and Fields). When I start hearing the people hired to be in charge of WoTC is the same person who created Candy Crush, Marvel Alliance, Call of Duty 1-500, and the phone based transformer games, I start hearing warning bells.
Not for nothing, but Fields literally wrote a book on how to monetize customer's need for addictive mobile game systems. He's also a big component of analytics and skirting the line between open source customer data and meta data groping.
So yeah, I have no real compliant I guess. I just want to know whether or not there is a legal way for DnD:B to exist if WotC launches it's own platform and pulls it's Copyright? Can Beyond continue to sell books?
WotC has expressed an interest in their new COO/CEO hires, of being a self contained "live service company". One of the people they hired was the former creator and marketer of the Candy Crush saga.
If WotC decides to drop DnD:B and make their own proprietary and trademarked system for online sales, do we still get to keep our books through DnD:B? Ala when EPIC/EA decided to pull it's games off steam, you could no longer play those games, if they were not already installed on your system. I am not saying this will happen, only that it's obviously happened in the past, and I want to know how I can back up my purchases with at least full color PDFs. In case WotC decides to stop allowing DnD:B to sell their content, and strips them of the right to even allow the downloading of product.
Thank you!
There's still a steady stream of content for 5E. Given that and the lack of specific announcements from Hasbro and WotC, it's a bit early to be speculating on what 6E release/publishing is going to look like. Speculating about a digital-only edition from the brand that embodies pen and paper tabletop RPGs in the public consciousness seems like an especially wild flavor of baseless speculation to me. I mean... we live in a world of infinite possibilities and all that, but at this point and in the period of the next few years it seems unlikely.
That said, however many years in the future 6E comes about, it's going to be an entirely different animal from 5E where licensing is concerned. If WotC decides to forego a digital partner for 6E and do it entirely in-house, that probably wouldn't in and of itself negate their agreement for DDB being the official digital partner for 5E. It's entirely possible that whatever contract exists that allows DDB to be the official digital partner for 5E might expire by the time 6E gets released, but it likely wouldn't be a direct result of 6E's release. I don't see any good reason WotC would want to bring 5E's digital toolset in-house at the same time that they'll be releasing and hypothetically doing a digital toolset for 6E in-house. That would be a lot of resources to expend on supporting what will then be the old edition right at the onset of the new edition. Wouldn't make any sense. If they want to keep having a 5E digital toolset after 6E launches the most sensible options would be to extend the contract with DDB or try to acquire them.
What we're left with is the question of what happens to the content we've "purchased" on DDB in the long term. As with everything else that's digital, I'd get good and comfortable with the idea that what you're really doing is renting, not buying. There's no real download option from DDB for keeping the content independent of the service. They've been clear from the beginning that's how it is and always will be for as long as the service operates. There is no "backup" option, and the checkout process makes it clear that you aren't being sold a PDF download option.
Minor nitpick for accuracy's sake: When EA pulled its games from Steam's storefront to open up Origin it's true that those games couldn't be purchased from Steam anymore. However, they could still be downloaded. I remember reinstalling Dragon Age II in particular a couple times after EA pulled out of Steam. It was still listed in my library, there was just no store page for the game anymore.
Thank you, may I presume you don't speak for the company though? I appreciate your efforts to tamp down my cynicism regarding American Corporate policy in the 21st century.
I have zero reason right now to produce any ill will towards DND:B. I love your product and have completely shifted into this modern design of DnD. It makes my players, and my job, a lot easier and gives us a better experience overall. My concern was the shift in leadership by WotC to a almost Bobby Kotick style leadership team (Williams and Fields). When I start hearing the people hired to be in charge of WoTC is the same person who created Candy Crush, Marvel Alliance, Call of Duty 1-500, and the phone based transformer games, I start hearing warning bells.
Not for nothing, but Fields literally wrote a book on how to monetize customer's need for addictive mobile game systems. He's also a big component of analytics and skirting the line between open source customer data and meta data groping.
So yeah, I have no real compliant I guess. I just want to know whether or not there is a legal way for DnD:B to exist if WotC launches it's own platform and pulls it's Copyright? Can Beyond continue to sell books?
They aren't going to answer those final questions, and you are right in saying that Stormknight was speaking as them, not as D&D Beyond but since they have a red title, of course some is going to be assumed.
When I look at D&D Beyond, I look at it for 5th edition. Not knowing what their contracts are makes it hard to know what is happening for 5.5 in 2024 or the eventual 6th and beyond. I do believe at some point Wizards will take it in house. When that happens, it just comes down to license. I have to believe that Fandom has negotiated to keep it online and active and be able to sell 5th edition content, but we'll see. I look at it in the sense that I've paid to have enjoyment of the content, but if I want permanent instances of things I HAVE TO BUY THE BOOKS.
It's also important to note that in the digital landscape of things, you don't own the content. It's shitty to point this out but I think that's one of your fears. You've paid money to be able to access the content and that can be revoked at any time:
By “earning,” “buying,” “unlocking,” “purchasing,” or otherwise gaining access to these digital goods in connection with D&D Beyond, you obtain a non-exclusive, revocable, limited right and license to access the software programs, information, and/or functionality that manifest themselves as such digital goods for non-commercial, personal entertainment purposes only, subject to your compliance with these Terms and any other relevant policies enacted by Fandom from time to time. The purchase price or other cost of such limited licenses is not refundable, transferable or exchangeable including, without limitation, upon termination of your account, upon termination of these Terms, upon the discontinuation of the Service, or otherwise. Fandom, or applicable 3rd parties, reserves all ownership right, title and interest in and to the digital goods described here, and all associated intellectual property rights therein. All details and restrictions on these digital goods not specified in these Terms or elsewhere on the Service will be determined by Fandom in its sole discretion.
Basically, Fandom can terminate their ToS today and you'd lose all content with zero recourse.
It's important to keep all of this in mind when making purchases online for digital content.
Edit:
What we're left with is the question of what happens to the content we've "purchased" on DDB in the long term. As with everything else that's digital, I'd get good and comfortable with the idea that what you're really doing is renting, not buying. There's no real download option from DDB for keeping the content independent of the service. They've been clear from the beginning that's how it is and always will be for as long as the service operates. There is no "backup" option, and the checkout process makes it clear that you aren't being sold a PDF download option.
The second the license is gone, this website is gone. The second Wizards decides to pull the plug, it's pulled. The second Fandom decides it doesn't want to do it anymore, it's gone.
I just want to know whether or not there is a legal way for DnD:B to exist if WotC launches it's own platform and pulls it's Copyright? Can Beyond continue to sell books?
Nobody's going to divulge contract info. Very few people have that info in the first place, and the ones that do aren't allowed to make it public.
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I also enjoy Ms. Sterling and understand your concern over Capitalists being Capitalists, and how Capitalists can be the worst. If WotC is allowed to pull it (which they probably aren't), there's nothing DDB can do about it besides make very similar products because what WotC owns mechanically is REALLY tiny.
I just want to know whether or not there is a legal way for DnD:B to exist if WotC launches it's own platform and pulls it's Copyright? Can Beyond continue to sell books?
Nobody's going to divulge contract info. Very few people have that info in the first place, and the ones that do aren't allowed to make it public.
I honestly feel if WotC is going to do something that would end DDB, that it will be to purchase DDB outright as developing anything along the lines of DDB would cost more than potentially just buying it outright. We the customers of DDB have gone thru that process what 2 times already or just once I forget. But that if they (WotC) were to purchase (DDB) at that point they could set up DDB as a point of sell for physical books in the USA other countries with shipping costs could be a nope due to costs in international shipping. This would allow them to have a set bundle price for new books going forward from that point. Now please note that what I have put down here is wishful thinking on my part as I live in Canada and ordering those bundles I mentioned will never be a purchase from me due to shipping and exchange rates costs I cannot afford.
I honestly feel if WotC is going to do something that would end DDB, that it will be to purchase DDB outright as developing anything along the lines of DDB would cost more than potentially just buying it outright.
DDB isn't terrible, but let's be honest - it's not great either. If this was WotC's thing, with all the not yet implemented/probably never going to happen functionality, we'd be saying it was terrible. DDB gets cut some slack because they have no control over what WotC releases, and even then there's plenty of users who are a bit fed up with the lack of progress on certain features. And if this scenario would be the result of D&D getting a new edition, it's unlikely a whole lot of DDB's code would be useful for tools for that. Cost is not the main consideration. Value is. And DDB's code's value to WotC may be a lot less than what you think.
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I honestly feel if WotC is going to do something that would end DDB, that it will be to purchase DDB outright as developing anything along the lines of DDB would cost more than potentially just buying it outright.
DDB isn't terrible, but let's be honest - it's not great either. If this was WotC's thing, with all the not yet implemented/probably never going to happen functionality, we'd be saying it was terrible. DDB gets cut some slack because they have no control over what WotC releases, and even then there's plenty of users who are a bit fed up with the lack of progress on certain features. And if this scenario would be the result of D&D getting a new edition, it's unlikely a whole lot of DDB's code would be useful for tools for that. Cost is not the main consideration. Value is. And DDB's code's value to WotC may be a lot less than what you think.
I myself find DDB as an awesome resource for my games which are in person games as I have yet to find anything I like online. But the biggest value DDB has to WotC for a reason to be purchased is its employees it has that are working at making DDB better daily even if it does happen slowly.
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Title question:
WotC has expressed an interest in their new COO/CEO hires, of being a self contained "live service company". One of the people they hired was the former creator and marketer of the Candy Crush saga.
If WotC decides to drop DnD:B and make their own proprietary and trademarked system for online sales, do we still get to keep our books through DnD:B? Ala when EPIC/EA decided to pull it's games off steam, you could no longer play those games, if they were not already installed on your system. I am not saying this will happen, only that it's obviously happened in the past, and I want to know how I can back up my purchases with at least full color PDFs. In case WotC decides to stop allowing DnD:B to sell their content, and strips them of the right to even allow the downloading of product.
Thank you!
It's up to WotC. Not even they know the answer at this point, I think. While you read what I'm about to say, bear in mind that WotC could easily decide to honour the purchases and transfer those rights to their new (hypothetical) platform - you may not be able to access them via DDB, but you'll still have access to them on their site instead. Indeed, I'd bet that, if this scenario happened, they'd do exactly that. It buys goodwill, it avoids the massive and inevitable upset of they screw these customers over, and they won't be losing much anyway - all the content will be for an old edition anyway. When UV collapsed, Google Movies offered everyone who had accounts and films with UV free copies of those on their Google accounts. They get a wave of potentially new customers who might buy more, while giving away films that probably wouldn't have been bought by those customers anyway. WotC will be in the same position.
DDB is a business and needs to make money. If they can't sell D&D content, they won't be getting money coming in, and will eventually have to close their servers. You will not be able to download content from that point. There are ways of transferring files between devices, so it's not insurmountable. As previously mentioned, I believe that WotC would see sense and transfer your previous purchases to themselves in that scenario in order to win your bucks for future purchases. I may be wrong, but it makes sense. However, DDB would close down and your content here would not be accessible via this site. Or WotC may just take it over and we won't see any difference. Who knows. However, I'd have the possibility that the provider could be cut in mind when buying stuff that is hosted rather than distributed like DDB. Still, I think it quite unlikely that you will lose your books and other paid content (homebrew is another thing).
As for PDFs, thje mandatory warning is that they are certainly illegal to distribute, and quite likely to even create them.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
I'm curious what the number of active/invested DDB users (not talking number of accounts or even active accounts, I mean there are super users of this board who claim to really be playing 3.5 in their games, so I mean users with significant holdings of 5e materials here on DDB) is in proportion to the number WotC estimates are "active" players of the D&D brand. The cost benefit of "honoring" D&D Beyond is largely dependant on that figure.
That said, a 6.0 going "full digital" based on recent hires is speculation. Hasbro _likes_ what WotC is doing _and_ would like them to be more successful in the digital arena than say Dark Alliance. My guess is you're going to see WotC branding over future AAA releases from folks like Larian etc. before you see WotC knifing presumably beneficial relationships with the likes of DDB, Roll20 and FantasyGrounds. I'd say if they were smart, they may even make their license more accessible to VTT developers, sorta like a SRD that aggressively works better in the present environment where content is almost literally a dime a dozen whereas really good tools are a anyone's guess market. And I don't see anyone telling WotC to literally stop the presses in the print work department.
A Microsoft of the calibers acquired doesn't specialize necessarily in "in house, all others be damned" development. What they definitely do bring to the table is spades is the ability to work with a broad range of partners at a scale Hasbro largely doesn't have outside of it's media liaisons (and Microsoft alum can accelerate that arm's tempo). People within WotC are being moved higher up within Hasbro. Those people are likely not going to give marching orders to new hires that sound like "I want you to undo what I invested a good portion of my career in at WotC."
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Not gonna lie, but even suggesting that a major company in 2022 might, as a token of good will, give the customers of their potential rival, "Free copies" of their rightful IP, is at best laughable, and at worst, naive and foolish. I mean, that's the president suggesting we drink bleach to combat COVID levels of silly. I don't doubt with every fiber of my being that the people who think of DnD as a "Live service" wouldn't JUMP at the chance to force users to re-purchase their libraries. DnD:B literally did just that, with the express consent and permission of WotC, if your remember. Now you seem to literally think WoTC wouldn't force us to do it all over again, but would literally give up 90% of their product for free because a competitor sold it too them first? Even though they took a percentage cut of the sale?
Depends on the details of WotC's contract with DDB. DDB would certainly not want to revoke your purchases because it would be a disaster for them.
What in tarnation are you on about?
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
What would 6e content hosted on WotC's in-house site have to do with the 5e content hosted on DDB, FantasyGrounds, and Roll20?
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I think they could end or change their licensing model which would mean that platforms like ddb, roll20 and so on couldn‘t sell watch stuff anymore.
Maybe they could still sell the old 5e things and not the new 5.5/6e edition material, who knows.
They had a picture of a ddb character sheet in one of the last Surveys where they hinted at a in-house vtt or platform. So maybe they will buy ddb? There also seems to be a team at ddb that is working on something we don‘t know about yet.
one of the ddb tech guys referred to it as a „game engine“ whatever that means.
I guess we have to wait, hope and see.
I have everything on ddb and would very much like to keep and use it…
4E's digital resources were kept up well into 5E, and were only taken down because of technical reasons beyond WotC's control. WotC is, by and large, fairly permissive when it comes to previous editions. The issue with 5E resources/products/services in a future 6E era is unlikely to be WotC trying to monetize them somehow; rather, it's the other way around - who is going to maintain these things if/when a large majority of D&D players switches to 6E and there's no viable revenue to be generated from 5E anymore? I don't see Fandom or some other 3rd party keeping the servers running for a rapidly dwindling customer base. I'm sure enough there will be a transition period allowing source material to be downloaded in some way (likely not a convenient one though), but keeping the tools running isn't likely.
That said, signs so far for 2024 are not that we'll be getting a new edition by then. An overhaul of 5E, yes, but no 6E. I wouldn't start panicking yet.
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It's all tea leaves, and weakly brewed conjecture tea leaves at that; but when one of the D&D journo's who gets access to press events asked a question about whether MMM would lead to updates to the SRD, there was much hand-wringing ... among folks who didn't realize the reason MMM would lead to no changes in the SRD is because nothing in the MMM exists in the SRD. That said, within the hand-wringing there was speculation WotC would "abandon" 5e and all the SRD based developers by not creating a SRD or updating the existing SRD for WOTC PROJEKT D&D 2024 GOLD or whatever comes after that. So you'd have WotC D&D which may or may not have an in house digital toolset, and no SRD for open gaming license content, and then you might have something like what I called 5eBeyond where you'd have a 3rd party industry around the legacy 5e. I don't see that coming, but I think _some_ folks see WotC's ownership of D&D as something similar to that of an abusive relationship or something and call things like Tasha's options for ASIs eventually becoming the standard for future race builds "gaslighting" and the like. Couple that sentiment with those who misread Orwell to describe erata or loosening of "canon" and you got a whole bunch of "those" types on the internet who see a rationale for the worst possible outcome whenever they see a change in executive leadership at WotC (changes mind you which usually involve WotC executives moving into a broader role over Hasbro's entirety). I mean look at the YouTubers reacting to the activist investors representing 2% shareholders wanting to stuff Hasbro's board with boardmembers aligned with this 2% shareholder and from there spin WotC away from Hasbro as if WotC's existence is keeping Hasbro's share price down. In the TTRPG D&D conversation space, you've got a number of people taking up not insignificant bandwidth who really don't know what they're talking about.
Anycase, in their follow up, OP seems to claiming DDB's marketplace "requiring" users to "re-buy their books" seems to be at the heart of this effort to buzz the rumor that vendors like DDB are to be stripped of their ability to operate by WotC in short order of I guess the arrival of WOTC PROJEKT D&D 2024 GOLD or a ruleset further down the line. Would a Whatever Edition put out by WotC but no longer in partnership with D&D Beyond (and maybe it's VTT partners too) hurt DDB? Probably, as DDB wouldn't be a go to place for the "latest and greatest" official D&D content presented as part of a digital integrated toolset for character management and whatever other tools they ultimately produce in robust form. DDB would have to adapt, probably after clarifying their rights with WotC evolving into something like a 5eBeyond in partnership with all the SRD-based developers similarly cut off from this alleged worst case D&D Iron Curtain. I don't see any reason to think that possibility is any more or less likely than the chicken little sentiment. But I also don't feel like I'm in an abusive relationship when I buy products from WotC so my perspective is different from that of the alarmist.
It's basically yet another "what happens to all the stuff I paid for if WotC moves onto another edition without DDB, or what happens to my legacy edition stuff if DDB sticks with WotC and has to maintain a new edition as well as the legacy stuff?" Using recent executive hires (ignoring the promotions) and the pending 2024 thing.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
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D&D Beyond FoundersFor hopefully obvious reasons, staff here are not able to talk about details of contracts between D&D Beyond and Wizards of the Coast.
I can assure you though that we have no plans of disappearing, and no plans to remove access to purchased content.
We have many plans for the future, and are continuing to discuss those with our partners.
I know this amounts to, "It's gonna be ok - trust me!"
As for there being a digital only edition of D&D? I mean, who knows? Maybe a spin-off project? It's REALLY tricky to try to tell what the future may hold, or what ideas people may have. Any discussions about such things are 100% conjecture though.
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Great answer Stormknight B!
I really want to point out to everyone generally how these things work and why your stuff will be safe. I don't know what the contract WotC has with DDB, but I can tell you it probably isn't "You're entire company is boned as soon as our whim says so."
DDB exists because they wanted to offer a service in partnership with WotC. This is why you don't get a physical book when you buy something and can't use your physical purchase to get something out of DDB. It generally lets WotC double dip purchases, because one is from Barnes & Noble and the other is from DDB. The providers make some money, and WotC makes the rest.
IF, and that's a big IF, WotC went to 6e and didn't continue their contract with DDB (which would be crazy), they'd lose the chance to make more money by yanking DDB's ability to make sales. This is in part why you can buy PDF's of the other books from DM's Guild. It's an extra source of income.
The beauty of the WotC and DDB relationship is that WotC doesn't front ANY cost. Servers? That's DDB. Develoupers? That's DDB. WotC literally doesn't want to handle the digital products because it can limit / slow their ability to design. If DDB can't figure out how to make Boons work 6 years later, there's no skin off WotC's back. It's not their job to make digital design easy. It's to make roleplaying evocative.
This means that you'd only lose your stuff if DDB shuts down or loses too much money to remain operating. That's generally in the agreement every time you buy something here.
Besides that, 5e is the most popular version of D&D ever. They don't want to scrap their golden goose. 3e had the problem of bloat which changed too much stuff and they had to patch it. 5e has a change in direction, but not an over-complication. This means we probably won't even get a proper 5.5 so much as a fixed PHB. A PHB with the adjusted ASI's, a fixed Beast Master Ranger, and maybe q few races and subclasses swapped here and there. I also strongly suspect that'll be when we get a few things that hint at other styles of game like Spelljammer.
Trust me, I love to theorycraft about 5.5, or 6e, but there isn't really much call for either.
Thank you, may I presume you don't speak for the company though? I appreciate your efforts to tamp down my cynicism regarding American Corporate policy in the 21st century.
I have zero reason right now to produce any ill will towards DND:B. I love your product and have completely shifted into this modern design of DnD. It makes my players, and my job, a lot easier and gives us a better experience overall. My concern was the shift in leadership by WotC to a almost Bobby Kotick style leadership team (Williams and Fields). When I start hearing the people hired to be in charge of WoTC is the same person who created Candy Crush, Marvel Alliance, Call of Duty 1-500, and the phone based transformer games, I start hearing warning bells.
Not for nothing, but Fields literally wrote a book on how to monetize customer's need for addictive mobile game systems. He's also a big component of analytics and skirting the line between open source customer data and meta data groping.
So yeah, I have no real compliant I guess. I just want to know whether or not there is a legal way for DnD:B to exist if WotC launches it's own platform and pulls it's Copyright? Can Beyond continue to sell books?
There's still a steady stream of content for 5E. Given that and the lack of specific announcements from Hasbro and WotC, it's a bit early to be speculating on what 6E release/publishing is going to look like. Speculating about a digital-only edition from the brand that embodies pen and paper tabletop RPGs in the public consciousness seems like an especially wild flavor of baseless speculation to me. I mean... we live in a world of infinite possibilities and all that, but at this point and in the period of the next few years it seems unlikely.
That said, however many years in the future 6E comes about, it's going to be an entirely different animal from 5E where licensing is concerned. If WotC decides to forego a digital partner for 6E and do it entirely in-house, that probably wouldn't in and of itself negate their agreement for DDB being the official digital partner for 5E. It's entirely possible that whatever contract exists that allows DDB to be the official digital partner for 5E might expire by the time 6E gets released, but it likely wouldn't be a direct result of 6E's release. I don't see any good reason WotC would want to bring 5E's digital toolset in-house at the same time that they'll be releasing and hypothetically doing a digital toolset for 6E in-house. That would be a lot of resources to expend on supporting what will then be the old edition right at the onset of the new edition. Wouldn't make any sense. If they want to keep having a 5E digital toolset after 6E launches the most sensible options would be to extend the contract with DDB or try to acquire them.
What we're left with is the question of what happens to the content we've "purchased" on DDB in the long term. As with everything else that's digital, I'd get good and comfortable with the idea that what you're really doing is renting, not buying. There's no real download option from DDB for keeping the content independent of the service. They've been clear from the beginning that's how it is and always will be for as long as the service operates. There is no "backup" option, and the checkout process makes it clear that you aren't being sold a PDF download option.
Minor nitpick for accuracy's sake: When EA pulled its games from Steam's storefront to open up Origin it's true that those games couldn't be purchased from Steam anymore. However, they could still be downloaded. I remember reinstalling Dragon Age II in particular a couple times after EA pulled out of Steam. It was still listed in my library, there was just no store page for the game anymore.
They aren't going to answer those final questions, and you are right in saying that Stormknight was speaking as them, not as D&D Beyond but since they have a red title, of course some is going to be assumed.
When I look at D&D Beyond, I look at it for 5th edition. Not knowing what their contracts are makes it hard to know what is happening for 5.5 in 2024 or the eventual 6th and beyond. I do believe at some point Wizards will take it in house. When that happens, it just comes down to license. I have to believe that Fandom has negotiated to keep it online and active and be able to sell 5th edition content, but we'll see. I look at it in the sense that I've paid to have enjoyment of the content, but if I want permanent instances of things I HAVE TO BUY THE BOOKS.
It's also important to note that in the digital landscape of things, you don't own the content. It's shitty to point this out but I think that's one of your fears. You've paid money to be able to access the content and that can be revoked at any time:
https://www.fandom.com/terms-of-sale
Basically, Fandom can terminate their ToS today and you'd lose all content with zero recourse.
It's important to keep all of this in mind when making purchases online for digital content.
Edit:
The second the license is gone, this website is gone. The second Wizards decides to pull the plug, it's pulled. The second Fandom decides it doesn't want to do it anymore, it's gone.
Nobody's going to divulge contract info. Very few people have that info in the first place, and the ones that do aren't allowed to make it public.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
I also enjoy Ms. Sterling and understand your concern over Capitalists being Capitalists, and how Capitalists can be the worst. If WotC is allowed to pull it (which they probably aren't), there's nothing DDB can do about it besides make very similar products because what WotC owns mechanically is REALLY tiny.
I honestly feel if WotC is going to do something that would end DDB, that it will be to purchase DDB outright as developing anything along the lines of DDB would cost more than potentially just buying it outright. We the customers of DDB have gone thru that process what 2 times already or just once I forget. But that if they (WotC) were to purchase (DDB) at that point they could set up DDB as a point of sell for physical books in the USA other countries with shipping costs could be a nope due to costs in international shipping. This would allow them to have a set bundle price for new books going forward from that point. Now please note that what I have put down here is wishful thinking on my part as I live in Canada and ordering those bundles I mentioned will never be a purchase from me due to shipping and exchange rates costs I cannot afford.
DDB isn't terrible, but let's be honest - it's not great either. If this was WotC's thing, with all the not yet implemented/probably never going to happen functionality, we'd be saying it was terrible. DDB gets cut some slack because they have no control over what WotC releases, and even then there's plenty of users who are a bit fed up with the lack of progress on certain features. And if this scenario would be the result of D&D getting a new edition, it's unlikely a whole lot of DDB's code would be useful for tools for that. Cost is not the main consideration. Value is. And DDB's code's value to WotC may be a lot less than what you think.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
I myself find DDB as an awesome resource for my games which are in person games as I have yet to find anything I like online. But the biggest value DDB has to WotC for a reason to be purchased is its employees it has that are working at making DDB better daily even if it does happen slowly.