From my perspective, a more experienced DM would be able to work with one character being a cut above the rest without issue. If your DM wasn't prepared for this though, I would consider asking to do Standard Array or Point Buy. That seems to be what is within the DM's comfort zone.
In my games during session 0 my players roll for stats but no one player roles all of them, if the game I'm running has 3 players they each roll 2 stats and when all 6 stats are done they place them where they want then apply racial mods to them, this puts every PC on equal footing and prevents what happens in the opening post. It works at my table and I consider it a fair policy for players wanting rolled stats. What does everyone think of it please discuss?
Ok, so I haven’t had a chance to read the whole thread but as others have said, start with a conversation with the DM and the table. If everyone feels that your stats are too good then I would ask if everyone can reroll using a different method. Standard array or point buy (maybe a boosted point buy if the DM wants slightly better stats for the heroes)
Or you could just ask if it would make things better if you put your +2/+1 in the 12 and 11 to even them out? That way you don’t have the 20 or the 17 turned 18?
From my perspective, a more experienced DM would be able to work with one character being a cut above the rest without issue. If your DM wasn't prepared for this though, I would consider asking to do Standard Array or Point Buy. That seems to be what is within the DM's comfort zone.
In my games during session 0 my players roll for stats but no one player roles all of them, if the game I'm running has 3 players they each roll 2 stats and when all 6 stats are done they place them where they want then apply racial mods to them, this puts every PC on equal footing and prevents what happens in the opening post. It works at my table and I consider it a fair policy for players wanting rolled stats. What does everyone think of it please discuss?
It's just a variation of 4d6, just without each player getting individual numbers. It makes it fair, but does make it so that if there are bad rolls, everyone is getting bad rolls and it can lead to some table grief.
Yes talk to the DM and the table. however, part of the idea behind rolling instead of standard array or point buy is just what you got - great stats! You the players are not just anyone in the world, for the game you ARE the world’s great hero’s - why shouldn’t you have great hero stats? Personally unless a DM requires I use point buy or (sub)standard array I roll for them. When I run a game as DM I have the players roll until they get a set of stats with nothing less than a 10 (unless they want it) and at least 3 rolls of 13+. Now pretty much any class or multiclass is available and they all actually look like heros from the start. I use standard array for NPCs and roll stats for major villains.
Here's the thing. Point-buy is a great CONCEPT, but its implementation is sub-par - particularly in relation to multiclass characters who may be a bit MAD.
I'd up those points from 27 to at LEAST 36, to allow for a potential extra 12 or 13 that you can dump into a stat if you have mutliclassing in your character's future.
If you need to spread your points wide to get access to a wide set of multiclasses, then that is a character choice. I don't see a reason to up the points for this - you can easily get your required 13 stats in multiple different places.
The extra power you get from non-overlapping multiclasses will be counter-balanced by missing out on the extra +1 or +2 that you'd get on a specific stat bonus by not multiclassing.
The extra power you get from non-overlapping multiclasses will be counter-balanced by missing out on the extra +1 or +2 that you'd get on a specific stat bonus by not multiclassing.
They're not talking about multiclassing, they're talking about MAD classes. For example, Paladins require Str, Con and Cha at a minimum, with Dex being helpful. Plus the obvious Wis that never goes amiss. That's 3-4 ability scores that they need to be high in order to be good, which point buy/standard array makes very difficult to do. Perhaps you think that it's OK for them to struggle, but they feel that it guts the class a bit.
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If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
5e is sort of built around stat growth via ASIs which makes standard array/point buy a reasonable build route as you can reach maxed stats by level 20 in most cases. Rolling and it’s near infinite variety of home rule versions was really the only way to go in earlier editions when stats rarely changed ( and typically only via high level magic items. This is part of why feats that boosted abilities were so important in 3.xe. Try flipping the game and play your point buy characters in a campaign where you can take feats but can’t take ASIs.
From my perspective, a more experienced DM would be able to work with one character being a cut above the rest without issue. If your DM wasn't prepared for this though, I would consider asking to do Standard Array or Point Buy. That seems to be what is within the DM's comfort zone.
In my games during session 0 my players roll for stats but no one player roles all of them, if the game I'm running has 3 players they each roll 2 stats and when all 6 stats are done they place them where they want then apply racial mods to them, this puts every PC on equal footing and prevents what happens in the opening post. It works at my table and I consider it a fair policy for players wanting rolled stats. What does everyone think of it please discuss?
It's just a variation of 4d6, just without each player getting individual numbers. It makes it fair, but does make it so that if there are bad rolls, everyone is getting bad rolls and it can lead to some table grief.
The method that's been used in a campaign that's I'm playing in now, that I fully intend to steal for my own campaigns going forward, is to have everyone roll the usual 4d6 drop one six times, but then put those sets of stats in a 6x6 grid (rolling extra sets if the party has fewer than six players)
Then everyone gets to pick one line of that grid -- horizontal, vertical or even diagonal. It evens out everyone's starting range while still putting everyone in 'plus' territory generally, without making everyone start with exactly the same set of numbers
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
From my perspective, a more experienced DM would be able to work with one character being a cut above the rest without issue. If your DM wasn't prepared for this though, I would consider asking to do Standard Array or Point Buy. That seems to be what is within the DM's comfort zone.
In my games during session 0 my players roll for stats but no one player roles all of them, if the game I'm running has 3 players they each roll 2 stats and when all 6 stats are done they place them where they want then apply racial mods to them, this puts every PC on equal footing and prevents what happens in the opening post. It works at my table and I consider it a fair policy for players wanting rolled stats. What does everyone think of it please discuss?
It's just a variation of 4d6, just without each player getting individual numbers. It makes it fair, but does make it so that if there are bad rolls, everyone is getting bad rolls and it can lead to some table grief.
The method that's been used in a campaign that's I'm playing in now, that I fully intend to steal for my own campaigns going forward, is to have everyone roll the usual 4d6 drop one six times, but then put those sets of stats in a 6x6 grid (rolling extra sets if the party has fewer than six players)
Then everyone gets to pick one line of that grid -- horizontal, vertical or even diagonal. It evens out everyone's starting range while still putting everyone in 'plus' territory generally, without making everyone start with exactly the same set of numbers
Can more than one player use the same line?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
From my perspective, a more experienced DM would be able to work with one character being a cut above the rest without issue. If your DM wasn't prepared for this though, I would consider asking to do Standard Array or Point Buy. That seems to be what is within the DM's comfort zone.
In my games during session 0 my players roll for stats but no one player roles all of them, if the game I'm running has 3 players they each roll 2 stats and when all 6 stats are done they place them where they want then apply racial mods to them, this puts every PC on equal footing and prevents what happens in the opening post. It works at my table and I consider it a fair policy for players wanting rolled stats. What does everyone think of it please discuss?
It's just a variation of 4d6, just without each player getting individual numbers. It makes it fair, but does make it so that if there are bad rolls, everyone is getting bad rolls and it can lead to some table grief.
The method that's been used in a campaign that's I'm playing in now, that I fully intend to steal for my own campaigns going forward, is to have everyone roll the usual 4d6 drop one six times, but then put those sets of stats in a 6x6 grid (rolling extra sets if the party has fewer than six players)
Then everyone gets to pick one line of that grid -- horizontal, vertical or even diagonal. It evens out everyone's starting range while still putting everyone in 'plus' territory generally, without making everyone start with exactly the same set of numbers
Can more than one player use the same line?
Nope
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
5e is sort of built around stat growth via ASIs which makes standard array/point buy a reasonable build route as you can reach maxed stats by level 20 in most cases. Rolling and it’s near infinite variety of home rule versions was really the only way to go in earlier editions when stats rarely changed ( and typically only via high level magic items. This is part of why feats that boosted abilities were so important in 3.xe. Try flipping the game and play your point buy characters in a campaign where you can take feats but can’t take ASIs.
I would have to go back and look at books I don’t have anymore to check but maybe it was 1-3e that had no ASIs and except for magic items that granted stat bonuses you were stuck with what you rolled + racial bonuses. the point really being that ASIs change the entire dynamic of how you roll for stats.
Personally, my remedy if I were in the OP's DM's shoes would be to give magic items to the weaker players to bring them up to par with the OP. That way the OP isn't nerfed, but the party will be more balanced.
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If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
All in all, the DM is a bit of a fool for having the players roll 2 4d6k3 k1 and then getting all up in his pants about a player getting exactly what you expect out of that rolling system, high stats. If I could figure out how to put that function into AnyDice.com I'm sure we'd see that the average is bonkers and the DM is just reaping what he sowed. If you don't want the possibility of players rolling godly stats, use point buy. Honestly this point should be pushed more. OP if the DM is asking you to lower your stats he should just have EVERYONE either re-roll with a new system or switch over to point buy.
From my perspective, a more experienced DM would be able to work with one character being a cut above the rest without issue. If your DM wasn't prepared for this though, I would consider asking to do Standard Array or Point Buy. That seems to be what is within the DM's comfort zone.
In my games during session 0 my players roll for stats but no one player roles all of them, if the game I'm running has 3 players they each roll 2 stats and when all 6 stats are done they place them where they want then apply racial mods to them, this puts every PC on equal footing and prevents what happens in the opening post. It works at my table and I consider it a fair policy for players wanting rolled stats. What does everyone think of it please discuss?
I actually think that is a pretty neat idea. I have never played at a table that decided PC stats in this way, but I personally would think it is fun to try. At one of the tables I play at for a one-shot, the stat distribution is quite uneven, but the DM just creates scenarios that challenge each player in different ways - having a titan character does not mean you have an easier time at this table. It is one reason I do not think this kind of method is always necessary. However, I do think it is a fantastic idea for tables that really would like everyone to start with equal stats and I would love to try it at least once.
5e is sort of built around stat growth via ASIs which makes standard array/point buy a reasonable build route as you can reach maxed stats by level 20 in most cases. Rolling and it’s near infinite variety of home rule versions was really the only way to go in earlier editions when stats rarely changed ( and typically only via high level magic items. This is part of why feats that boosted abilities were so important in 3.xe. Try flipping the game and play your point buy characters in a campaign where you can take feats but can’t take ASIs.
3e and 3.5 had stat growth, it was slower than 5e at 1 point per 4 levels but it was there. I also don't remember many stat increasing feats in 3e nor them being very important if they did.. you had many other methods of increasing bonuses to achieve results that having a 20 in your primary stat wasn't hyper important.. its so important in 5e because you have almost no means of increasing your bonuses, its ability + proficiency because of bounded accuracy and that's it.
3e was about those feat trees, getting all those prereq's for that insane feat combo, remember one build was that snowflake wardancer, or getting your rogue into palm throwing multiple daggers per attack.. mmm 3e may of been complicated but man it had some wild builds..
All in all, the DM is a bit of a fool for having the players roll 2 4d6k3 k1 and then getting all up in his pants about a player getting exactly what you expect out of that rolling system, high stats. If I could figure out how to put that function into AnyDice.com I'm sure we'd see that the average is bonkers and the DM is just reaping what he sowed. If you don't want the possibility of players rolling godly stats, use point buy. Honestly this point should be pushed more. OP if the DM is asking you to lower your stats he should just have EVERYONE either re-roll with a new system or switch over to point buy.
Given that the likelihood of getting those results or better is of the order of 0.03%, or roughly 1 in 3,000 I'm not sure it's fair to say that it's exactly what one should expect. 4d6k3 is pretty good at producing average results over extremes - significantly better than 1d20, and the randomness can be appealing - which none of the other two officially suggested methods provide. Apparently, the average score is 13, abd if you go flat in point buy that's what you get. Say what you want about the DM's lack of anticipation or communication, but it's not fair to say that this was exactly what should have been expected.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
All in all, the DM is a bit of a fool for having the players roll 2 4d6k3 k1 and then getting all up in his pants about a player getting exactly what you expect out of that rolling system, high stats. If I could figure out how to put that function into AnyDice.com I'm sure we'd see that the average is bonkers and the DM is just reaping what he sowed. If you don't want the possibility of players rolling godly stats, use point buy. Honestly this point should be pushed more. OP if the DM is asking you to lower your stats he should just have EVERYONE either re-roll with a new system or switch over to point buy.
Given that the likelihood of getting those results or better is of the order of 0.03%, or roughly 1 in 3,000 I'm not sure it's fair to say that it's exactly what one should expect. 4d6k3 is pretty good at producing average results over extremes - significantly better than 1d20, and the randomness can be appealing - which none of the other two officially suggested methods provide. Apparently, the average score is 13, abd if you go flat in point buy that's what you get. Say what you want about the DM's lack of anticipation or communication, but it's not fair to say that this was exactly what should have been expected.
I used rolled stats a lot. Significantly better arrays than what a point buy will offer are not the norm but they do happen and with 4-5 players all rolling two sets of stats a DM should definitely allow for the possibility of one or two really good ones and potentially large discrepancies between characters. Outliers happen. It's the same reason a DM shouldn't let progress in a campaign hinge on someone in the party succeeding at a check, even an easy one; there's always a chance that everyone will fail. It's the same reason WotC came up with legendary resistances; even monsters with high saves can fail them quickly. Not probable is not the same as not possible, as Jack Sparrow taught Barbossa.
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Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
All in all, the DM is a bit of a fool for having the players roll 2 4d6k3 k1 and then getting all up in his pants about a player getting exactly what you expect out of that rolling system, high stats. If I could figure out how to put that function into AnyDice.com I'm sure we'd see that the average is bonkers and the DM is just reaping what he sowed. If you don't want the possibility of players rolling godly stats, use point buy. Honestly this point should be pushed more. OP if the DM is asking you to lower your stats he should just have EVERYONE either re-roll with a new system or switch over to point buy.
Given that the likelihood of getting those results or better is of the order of 0.03%, or roughly 1 in 3,000 I'm not sure it's fair to say that it's exactly what one should expect. 4d6k3 is pretty good at producing average results over extremes - significantly better than 1d20, and the randomness can be appealing - which none of the other two officially suggested methods provide. Apparently, the average score is 13, abd if you go flat in point buy that's what you get. Say what you want about the DM's lack of anticipation or communication, but it's not fair to say that this was exactly what should have been expected.
I used rolled stats a lot. Significantly better arrays than what a point buy will offer are not the norm but they do happen and with 4-5 players all rolling two sets of stats a DM should definitely allow for the possibility of one or two really good ones and potentially large discrepancies between characters. Outliers happen. It's the same reason a DM shouldn't let progress in a campaign hinge on someone in the party succeeding at a check, even an easy one; there's always a chance that everyone will fail. It's the same reason WotC came up with legendary resistances; even monsters with high saves can fail them quickly. Not probable is not the same as not possible, as Jack Sparrow taught Barbossa.
Hence the "say what you want about the DM's lack of anticipation".
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In my games during session 0 my players roll for stats but no one player roles all of them, if the game I'm running has 3 players they each roll 2 stats and when all 6 stats are done they place them where they want then apply racial mods to them, this puts every PC on equal footing and prevents what happens in the opening post. It works at my table and I consider it a fair policy for players wanting rolled stats. What does everyone think of it please discuss?
Ok, so I haven’t had a chance to read the whole thread but as others have said, start with a conversation with the DM and the table. If everyone feels that your stats are too good then I would ask if everyone can reroll using a different method. Standard array or point buy (maybe a boosted point buy if the DM wants slightly better stats for the heroes)
Or you could just ask if it would make things better if you put your +2/+1 in the 12 and 11 to even them out? That way you don’t have the 20 or the 17 turned 18?
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https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
It's just a variation of 4d6, just without each player getting individual numbers. It makes it fair, but does make it so that if there are bad rolls, everyone is getting bad rolls and it can lead to some table grief.
Yes talk to the DM and the table. however, part of the idea behind rolling instead of standard array or point buy is just what you got - great stats! You the players are not just anyone in the world, for the game you ARE the world’s great hero’s - why shouldn’t you have great hero stats? Personally unless a DM requires I use point buy or (sub)standard array I roll for them. When I run a game as DM I have the players roll until they get a set of stats with nothing less than a 10 (unless they want it) and at least 3 rolls of 13+. Now pretty much any class or multiclass is available and they all actually look like heros from the start. I use standard array for NPCs and roll stats for major villains.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
If you need to spread your points wide to get access to a wide set of multiclasses, then that is a character choice. I don't see a reason to up the points for this - you can easily get your required 13 stats in multiple different places.
The extra power you get from non-overlapping multiclasses will be counter-balanced by missing out on the extra +1 or +2 that you'd get on a specific stat bonus by not multiclassing.
They're not talking about multiclassing, they're talking about MAD classes. For example, Paladins require Str, Con and Cha at a minimum, with Dex being helpful. Plus the obvious Wis that never goes amiss. That's 3-4 ability scores that they need to be high in order to be good, which point buy/standard array makes very difficult to do. Perhaps you think that it's OK for them to struggle, but they feel that it guts the class a bit.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
5e is sort of built around stat growth via ASIs which makes standard array/point buy a reasonable build route as you can reach maxed stats by level 20 in most cases. Rolling and it’s near infinite variety of home rule versions was really the only way to go in earlier editions when stats rarely changed ( and typically only via high level magic items. This is part of why feats that boosted abilities were so important in 3.xe. Try flipping the game and play your point buy characters in a campaign where you can take feats but can’t take ASIs.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
The method that's been used in a campaign that's I'm playing in now, that I fully intend to steal for my own campaigns going forward, is to have everyone roll the usual 4d6 drop one six times, but then put those sets of stats in a 6x6 grid (rolling extra sets if the party has fewer than six players)
Then everyone gets to pick one line of that grid -- horizontal, vertical or even diagonal. It evens out everyone's starting range while still putting everyone in 'plus' territory generally, without making everyone start with exactly the same set of numbers
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Can more than one player use the same line?
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Nope
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Huh? There were asi in 3.x.
I would have to go back and look at books I don’t have anymore to check but maybe it was 1-3e that had no ASIs and except for magic items that granted stat bonuses you were stuck with what you rolled + racial bonuses.
the point really being that ASIs change the entire dynamic of how you roll for stats.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Personally, my remedy if I were in the OP's DM's shoes would be to give magic items to the weaker players to bring them up to par with the OP. That way the OP isn't nerfed, but the party will be more balanced.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
All in all, the DM is a bit of a fool for having the players roll 2 4d6k3 k1 and then getting all up in his pants about a player getting exactly what you expect out of that rolling system, high stats. If I could figure out how to put that function into AnyDice.com I'm sure we'd see that the average is bonkers and the DM is just reaping what he sowed. If you don't want the possibility of players rolling godly stats, use point buy. Honestly this point should be pushed more. OP if the DM is asking you to lower your stats he should just have EVERYONE either re-roll with a new system or switch over to point buy.
Er ek geng, þat er í þeim skóm er ek valda.
UwU
I actually think that is a pretty neat idea. I have never played at a table that decided PC stats in this way, but I personally would think it is fun to try. At one of the tables I play at for a one-shot, the stat distribution is quite uneven, but the DM just creates scenarios that challenge each player in different ways - having a titan character does not mean you have an easier time at this table. It is one reason I do not think this kind of method is always necessary. However, I do think it is a fantastic idea for tables that really would like everyone to start with equal stats and I would love to try it at least once.
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3e and 3.5 had stat growth, it was slower than 5e at 1 point per 4 levels but it was there. I also don't remember many stat increasing feats in 3e nor them being very important if they did.. you had many other methods of increasing bonuses to achieve results that having a 20 in your primary stat wasn't hyper important.. its so important in 5e because you have almost no means of increasing your bonuses, its ability + proficiency because of bounded accuracy and that's it.
3e was about those feat trees, getting all those prereq's for that insane feat combo, remember one build was that snowflake wardancer, or getting your rogue into palm throwing multiple daggers per attack.. mmm 3e may of been complicated but man it had some wild builds..
Given that the likelihood of getting those results or better is of the order of 0.03%, or roughly 1 in 3,000 I'm not sure it's fair to say that it's exactly what one should expect. 4d6k3 is pretty good at producing average results over extremes - significantly better than 1d20, and the randomness can be appealing - which none of the other two officially suggested methods provide. Apparently, the average score is 13, abd if you go flat in point buy that's what you get. Say what you want about the DM's lack of anticipation or communication, but it's not fair to say that this was exactly what should have been expected.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
I used rolled stats a lot. Significantly better arrays than what a point buy will offer are not the norm but they do happen and with 4-5 players all rolling two sets of stats a DM should definitely allow for the possibility of one or two really good ones and potentially large discrepancies between characters. Outliers happen. It's the same reason a DM shouldn't let progress in a campaign hinge on someone in the party succeeding at a check, even an easy one; there's always a chance that everyone will fail. It's the same reason WotC came up with legendary resistances; even monsters with high saves can fail them quickly. Not probable is not the same as not possible, as Jack Sparrow taught Barbossa.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
Hence the "say what you want about the DM's lack of anticipation".
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.