As a DM, I'd allow anybody to disarm most mundane traps with disadvantage depending on the circumstances; for traps that really demand somebody proficient with thieve's tools, for instance. For magical traps, it might not be possible unless a PC has an appropriate spell or proficiency in arcana.
There is nothing special about Rogue with regards to traps. If you are proficient in Thieves Tools, you can remove them. Note you need to be proficient in Investigation to actively look for traps.
Here is how I play (probably house ruled).
My rule of thumb is that any can attempt to disarm a trap. But if you are not proficient, if you fail to disarm the trap you automatically set it off and fail the save/ it hits automatically. If you succeed, great, nothing happens. That's what you get for playing around with things you do not understand.
Also, typically you have to find the trap. I allow someone that is proficient with thieves tools and also proficient in perception or investigation to get a passive check to detect a trap. If you are proficient with thieves tools and actively investigating for a trap, you get advantage against finding any traps.
Thanks guys. I appreciate the help. I am glad I was not missing anything official on this. I figured if a player learned Investigation and gained proficiency in Thieves Tools, then they should be able to detect and disarm traps...
In my game, we have a rogue that is great at disarming but VERY poor at finding them, so a wizard (book nerd) has decided to study (with a level gain taking feat for prodigy to gain Thieves Tools) to be to assist. He will inspect and detect the traps and assist the Rogue in disarming,... as this is what has molded him in the course of the game... and it makes logical sense for his character and I wanted to make sure it was acceptable within the rules.
Its a common occurence for rogues despite having high Dexterity usually have lower Intelligence and Wisdom and don't always take Expertise with either Perception or Investigation to compenate so they end up with significantly higher bonus to checks made with Thieves tools than Intelligence or Wisdom checks.
If you are proficient in Thieves Tools, you can remove them. Note you need to be proficient in Investigation to actively look for traps.
these are homebrew rules and are not RAW (nor RAI imo) -. Although the first sentence is technically correct, it is misleading; you can attempt to remove them without proficiency in thieves tools as well.
While in general thieves' tools don't require proficiency to use, some locks or traps may specifically require you to have proficiency with thieves’ tools to unlock or disarm them though.
What does it take for a character to be able to disable traps?
Just training in Investigation? Proficient in Thieves Tools?
Basically, can a character take Prodigy and gain proficiency in Thieves Tools, and Investigaion then be able to FIND and REMOVE Traps?
Thanks
~Mad
Anyone can roll any ability check unless a rule says they can't, so you don't need any proficiency in anything to try this, only to be better at it, unless the trap says otherwise (the reason you need proficiency to pick a PHB lock is that the PHB lock item says you do).
The ability check to find or disable a trap varies by trap - you don't always need Investigation to find one and you don't always need Thieves Tools to disable a trap. Removing a trap doesn't require Thieves Tools for any trap I know of - usually it's just a question of being strong enough, although for a permanent trap, your DM might have you roll to see if you're strong enough to rip it out of its location, I suppose.
If you just want to be allowed to roll and don't care about being good at it, the only traps that generally won't even let you roll against them are fundamentally magical in nature, so magical solutions like Detect Magic and Dispel Magic are recommended (and still potentially insufficient, for a sufficiently magically obscured trap, as it's impossible to get your hands on resourceless Dispel Magic, so you can't just spam it at the world and hope).
I use perception to find the signs of a trap, investigation to determine what kind of trap it may be, and the character can use thieves tools to disable the trap. Depending on the trap, simple mundane countermeasures may work, such as jamming in climbing pitons to keep a door from slamming shut or stuffing holes full of cloth to keep poison gas/darts from exiting. Some traps may not need the thieves tools at all and another ability check may suffice.
For me, investigation is an active skill of Doing Things to see how something works, where Perception is a passive skill of just looking and drawing on experience.
The distinction between Perception and Investigation is muddy due to the way they are presented, but I try to stick to the following:
Perception is gathering sensory information
Investigation is deducing things from that information
Most people just kind of use Perception and Investigation interchangeably, which I think dilutes the meaning of both skills. Keeping them distinct can help highlight how a character sees the world. When coupled with passive Investigation, a highly perceptive player may notice enough signs that you don't need to be Sherlock Holmes to figure out what they mean. Similarly a good investigator might be able to make great leaps of understanding based on only a few clues picked up through passive Perception.
As for trap disarming, I often prefer the barbarian/paladin method - just set it off and run!
While in general thieves' tools don't require proficiency to use, some locks or traps may specifically require you to have proficiency with thieves’ tools to unlock or disarm them though.
this is also very muddy. Yes you can use thieves' tools without proficiency in them to disarm traps (since that's the topic of this thread), although since you're not proficient, that doesn't do much for you other than actually give you the scissors, files, mirror, etc needed to actually do the activity...imo.
BUT, to go off topic since you brought locks into the conversation - There are 3 separate locations where RAW very specifically says you need proficiency with thieves' tools to pick locks. Contradicting that though, there's two separate RAI tweets that very specifically say you don't need proficiency with thieves' tools to try to pick a lock. Bottom line, its up to the DM.
RAW
Working Together Chapter 7 of the –Player’s Handbook. Where it discusses working together to provide advantage on an ability check: “For example, trying to open a lock requires proficiency with thieves' tools…” This, imo, is very clear.
Locked Doors Chapter 5 of the –Dungeon Master’s Guide. Where it discusses picking locked doors: “...doing so requires thieves’ tools and proficiency in their use”. This is also very clear when it comes to locked doors; although one could make the feeble argument that it doesn’t really address the adventuring gear item ‘lock’, or anything else with a built-in lock like a chest.
Lock Chapter 5 of the –Player’s Handbook. Where it lists the description of a lock: “...a creature proficient with thieves’ tools can pick this lock…” Nowhere does it say that a creature without proficiency can pick the lock. You could argue that assumption is adding to the rules and, probably as importantly, the assumption makes the language completely pointless.
RAI
“Is it necessary to have proficiency in thieves’ tools to use them? nope you can still use –them, just without the proficiency bonus.” Mike Mearls, 2014.
"Proficiency isn't required to use a tool, unless that tool's description says otherwise.” Jeremy Crawford, 2018.
Like i said locks can specifically require it without being a general rule. Tools profiency only let you add your proficiency bonus to the check in their entry and i believe its the reason why the Dev answer this way.
You're right that disarming a trap with thieves' tools with which you lack proficiency doesn't add much to the check in itself, but it could still potentially prove useful somehow by avoiding direct contact with the trap (and all it entails) for exemple.
As for detecting traps, published materals use both Wisdom (Perception) and Intelligence (Investigation) check so it can be either of them. I personally use Wisdom when the senses are involved and Intelligence when deduction is. I often also use variations ex. Wisdom (investigation) or Intelligence (Perception)
Perception I often use if it's a matter of 'do they see this hidden thing or not.' Does the party see the bandit hiding in the shadows? Do they notice that empty space is actually a slime cube? Do they hear muffled whispers in the next room? For a trap, I would use perception if the trap mechanism is itself hidden and the trick is 'do you spot the trip wire in the dark hallway' etc where spotting the trap is about realizing something is there in the first place.
If the trick is not that the trap is 'hidden away' but rather disguised in some way, I'd use investigation to see if you pick up on little details. Do you notice that that this tile is actually a pressure plate, do you realize that this treasure chest lock has a trap mechanism as you look at it, do you notice that you can pull this torch down to open a hidden door, etc. Traps or hidden things where the test isn't if you 'see' it but if you deduce some detail about it.
When it comes to tools I tend to limit what they can be used for if you don't have proficiency, meaning that your character is not trained and experienced in its use.
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I have a simple question.
What does it take for a character to be able to disable traps?
Just training in Investigation? Proficient in Thieves Tools?
Basically, can a character take Prodigy and gain proficiency in Thieves Tools, and Investigaion then be able to FIND and REMOVE Traps?
Thanks
~Mad
As a DM, I'd allow anybody to disarm most mundane traps with disadvantage depending on the circumstances; for traps that really demand somebody proficient with thieve's tools, for instance. For magical traps, it might not be possible unless a PC has an appropriate spell or proficiency in arcana.
There is nothing special about Rogue with regards to traps. If you are proficient in Thieves Tools, you can remove them. Note you need to be proficient in Investigation to actively look for traps.
Here is how I play (probably house ruled).
My rule of thumb is that any can attempt to disarm a trap. But if you are not proficient, if you fail to disarm the trap you automatically set it off and fail the save/ it hits automatically. If you succeed, great, nothing happens. That's what you get for playing around with things you do not understand.
Also, typically you have to find the trap. I allow someone that is proficient with thieves tools and also proficient in perception or investigation to get a passive check to detect a trap. If you are proficient with thieves tools and actively investigating for a trap, you get advantage against finding any traps.
Thanks guys. I appreciate the help.
I am glad I was not missing anything official on this.
I figured if a player learned Investigation and gained proficiency in Thieves Tools, then they should be able to detect and disarm traps...
In my game, we have a rogue that is great at disarming but VERY poor at finding them, so a wizard (book nerd) has decided to study (with a level gain taking feat for prodigy to gain Thieves Tools) to be to assist. He will inspect and detect the traps and assist the Rogue in disarming,... as this is what has molded him in the course of the game... and it makes logical sense for his character and I wanted to make sure it was acceptable within the rules.
Thanks again!
~Mad
Its a common occurence for rogues despite having high Dexterity usually have lower Intelligence and Wisdom and don't always take Expertise with either Perception or Investigation to compenate so they end up with significantly higher bonus to checks made with Thieves tools than Intelligence or Wisdom checks.
these are homebrew rules and are not RAW (nor RAI imo) -. Although the first sentence is technically correct, it is misleading; you can attempt to remove them without proficiency in thieves tools as well.
OP, look at the 'Detecting and Disabling a Trap' section of the DMG. https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/dmg/adventure-environments#DetectingandDisablingaTrap
There's some additional trap info in XGE - mostly trap examples and guidance on how to build simple and complex traps. https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/xgte/traps-revisited
Also in XGE, under tools, i'd look at the first couple paragraphs and also at thieves' tools as it gives additional rules on proficiency bonuses for setting and disarming traps...but tool proficiency isn't needed to do either. https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/xgte/dungeon-masters-tools#ToolProficiencies
Guide to the Five Factions (PWYW)
Deck of Decks
While in general thieves' tools don't require proficiency to use, some locks or traps may specifically require you to have proficiency with thieves’ tools to unlock or disarm them though.
Anyone can roll any ability check unless a rule says they can't, so you don't need any proficiency in anything to try this, only to be better at it, unless the trap says otherwise (the reason you need proficiency to pick a PHB lock is that the PHB lock item says you do).
The ability check to find or disable a trap varies by trap - you don't always need Investigation to find one and you don't always need Thieves Tools to disable a trap. Removing a trap doesn't require Thieves Tools for any trap I know of - usually it's just a question of being strong enough, although for a permanent trap, your DM might have you roll to see if you're strong enough to rip it out of its location, I suppose.
If you just want to be allowed to roll and don't care about being good at it, the only traps that generally won't even let you roll against them are fundamentally magical in nature, so magical solutions like Detect Magic and Dispel Magic are recommended (and still potentially insufficient, for a sufficiently magically obscured trap, as it's impossible to get your hands on resourceless Dispel Magic, so you can't just spam it at the world and hope).
I use perception to find the signs of a trap, investigation to determine what kind of trap it may be, and the character can use thieves tools to disable the trap. Depending on the trap, simple mundane countermeasures may work, such as jamming in climbing pitons to keep a door from slamming shut or stuffing holes full of cloth to keep poison gas/darts from exiting. Some traps may not need the thieves tools at all and another ability check may suffice.
My rule related to this is:
Perception - Noticing things, inspecting things
Investigation - actively testing and exploring.
For me, investigation is an active skill of Doing Things to see how something works, where Perception is a passive skill of just looking and drawing on experience.
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The distinction between Perception and Investigation is muddy due to the way they are presented, but I try to stick to the following:
Most people just kind of use Perception and Investigation interchangeably, which I think dilutes the meaning of both skills. Keeping them distinct can help highlight how a character sees the world. When coupled with passive Investigation, a highly perceptive player may notice enough signs that you don't need to be Sherlock Holmes to figure out what they mean. Similarly a good investigator might be able to make great leaps of understanding based on only a few clues picked up through passive Perception.
As for trap disarming, I often prefer the barbarian/paladin method - just set it off and run!
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
this is also very muddy. Yes you can use thieves' tools without proficiency in them to disarm traps (since that's the topic of this thread), although since you're not proficient, that doesn't do much for you other than actually give you the scissors, files, mirror, etc needed to actually do the activity...imo.
BUT, to go off topic since you brought locks into the conversation - There are 3 separate locations where RAW very specifically says you need proficiency with thieves' tools to pick locks. Contradicting that though, there's two separate RAI tweets that very specifically say you don't need proficiency with thieves' tools to try to pick a lock. Bottom line, its up to the DM.
RAW
RAI
Guide to the Five Factions (PWYW)
Deck of Decks
Like i said locks can specifically require it without being a general rule. Tools profiency only let you add your proficiency bonus to the check in their entry and i believe its the reason why the Dev answer this way.
You're right that disarming a trap with thieves' tools with which you lack proficiency doesn't add much to the check in itself, but it could still potentially prove useful somehow by avoiding direct contact with the trap (and all it entails) for exemple.
As for detecting traps, published materals use both Wisdom (Perception) and Intelligence (Investigation) check so it can be either of them. I personally use Wisdom when the senses are involved and Intelligence when deduction is. I often also use variations ex. Wisdom (investigation) or Intelligence (Perception)
For investigation vs perception for me it varies.
Perception I often use if it's a matter of 'do they see this hidden thing or not.' Does the party see the bandit hiding in the shadows? Do they notice that empty space is actually a slime cube? Do they hear muffled whispers in the next room? For a trap, I would use perception if the trap mechanism is itself hidden and the trick is 'do you spot the trip wire in the dark hallway' etc where spotting the trap is about realizing something is there in the first place.
If the trick is not that the trap is 'hidden away' but rather disguised in some way, I'd use investigation to see if you pick up on little details. Do you notice that that this tile is actually a pressure plate, do you realize that this treasure chest lock has a trap mechanism as you look at it, do you notice that you can pull this torch down to open a hidden door, etc. Traps or hidden things where the test isn't if you 'see' it but if you deduce some detail about it.
When it comes to tools I tend to limit what they can be used for if you don't have proficiency, meaning that your character is not trained and experienced in its use.