Personally, I think that just letting the player determine the location of the 'fear' origin (each round, as a free action, independently for all affected, ignoring the 30 ft origin sphere) could be enough to make this spell worth while. The spell is clearly not a damage spell, so it should be a battlefield control.
Are there other spells that let the Player determine in which direction a frightened person runs from?
I understand this being used in a fight where there's a billion low wisdom monsters huddled together, but when is that actually going to happen?
So I have had an NPC cast phantasmal killer in combat, and it was basically used to end a vendetta -- the NPC didn't just want to kill the other person (a wererat gangster that had been extorting them), they wanted them to suffer. If the NPC just wanted them dead, there would have been more efficient methods -- although it turned out to be pretty efficient anyway, as the wererat failed four straight saves
As others have suggested, weird fills the same kind of niche. There are absolutely more efficient ways to destroy a village full of people. This one leaves the buildings intact and sends a very strong, and very evil, message to anyone who finds the bodies
Is that a worthwhile 9th-level spell for a PC? Nope. Is it worth it for a DM to let the party know a caster capable of 9th-level magic committed this atrocity? I think that's still a valid argument
There's a lot better ways to do that. Up the damage, increase the number of target areas, make it a worthwhile spell.
I mean, if you want to communicate that the NPC mage is silly and thinks that Weird is a worthwhile spell to learn and cast, great I guess...I don't see that rather constrained niche coming up in my games and would rather it were a functional spell - either by buffing it up or lowering the resource cost in casting it. That way, the NPC can also be made to also seem intelligent as well as cruel.
If you're just using a boss enemy wizard to cast weird and to try scare your players, you're probably just gonna make them grateful that the caster effectively just wasted a turn.
Are there other spells that let the Player determine in which direction a frightened person runs from?
The fear spell causes people to move away from the source of their fear, but the frightened condition does not. The condition only means you can’t move closer to the source of your fear and imposes disadvantage on attacks and checks while you can see that source.
Are there other spells that let the Player determine in which direction a frightened person runs from?
The fear spell causes people to move away from the source of their fear, but the frightened condition does not. The condition only means you can’t move closer to the source of your fear and imposes disadvantage on attacks and checks while you can see that source.
Yeah, frightened isn't actually a very powerful condition. Especially if you're a spell caster, because you can just do spells that require saving throws instead of attack rolls.
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If you're just using a boss enemy wizard to cast weird and to try scare your players, you're probably just gonna make them grateful that the caster effectively just wasted a turn.
If you're just using a boss enemy wizard to cast meteor swarm and to light a campfire, you're probably just gonna make them grateful that the caster effectively just wasted a turn.
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I haven't read all of the posts so apologies if anyone has mentioned this but....what about replacing the fear side of things with Confusion; so each creature in the area rolls d10 at the start of their turn to decide how it acts and if they roll a 10 they can act normally except the frightened condition kicks in as well. You can still roll play it as fear invading the victims minds and them seeing their darkesty feasrs etc, it just has a little more oomph to it.
That way its effectively a 9th level confusion that deals damage.
There's a lot better ways to do that. Up the damage, increase the number of target areas, make it a worthwhile spell.
I mean, if you want to communicate that the NPC mage is silly and thinks that Weird is a worthwhile spell to learn and cast, great I guess...I don't see that rather constrained niche coming up in my games and would rather it were a functional spell - either by buffing it up or lowering the resource cost in casting it. That way, the NPC can also be made to also seem intelligent as well as cruel.
You walk into a small village and find someone wiped out everyone by frightening them to death using weird. Stood there and watched them die, in terror
If you decide that means they're "silly" and not sadistic, then you definitely are not playing in the same kinds of campaigns I am
It's odd that you quote me as saying that they'd be cruel...and then claim that I said that they wouldn't be.
I'm just trying to imagine this scene. Your moustache twirling villain walks into a village. "Hey, guys gather round, Bob go round and gather everyone round. What do you mean, random villager, why wouldn't you gather en masse around a scary BBEG? I'll tell you why, the spell I about to cast news needs you to be within 30ft of me! You don't normally have an entire village get within 30ft of me, so shuffle up closer! Yeah, that's better! Ready? No, don't go get that toy! Get within 30ft this instant! Okay, 3, 2, 1...Well, that went swimmingly! Wait...damn it Bob, you had one job! How am I meant to get those guys from the farm now? Right, I can't cast that spell again until I've had a long rest, so I'll have to do it tomorrow...meet me at 9 o'clock sharp in front of the shop. Bob...I'll deal with you later."
Yes, it conveys that they're cruel. It also conveys that they're daft because they spent that time and effort learning a spell they can only cast once a day and leave them vulnerable...when a similar spell that does almost the same thing can be learned and cast multiple times a day, and they can learn another spell that uses the same once-a-day slot that can massacre thousands in a fell swoop. It conveys a sadist that isn't all that threatening.
And you ignored the question, why not have it buffed and made into a worthwhile L9 slot spell? Higher damage? Perhaps multiple AoE zones like Meteor Swarm? Someone suggested that rather than causing Frightened, it causes them to be Confused and attack each other instead? How does that detract from your purpose for it? That's what the thread is about. It just doesn't justify a L9 slot. Either lower it, or buff it. Or both. Making it capable of causing the villagers to fight and kill each other, or to cover the entire village, or do more damage doesn't make the caster any less sadistic. Quite the contrary. Being compelled to kill your loved ones in your magically induced sheer terror is far worse than simply being scared to death.
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I'm just trying to imagine this scene. Your moustache twirling villain walks into a village. "Hey, guys gather round, Bob go round and gather everyone round. What do you mean, random villager, why wouldn't you gather en masse around a scary BBEG? I'll tell you why, the spell I about to cast news needs you to be within 30ft of me! You don't normally have an entire village get within 30ft of me, so shuffle up closer! Yeah, that's better! Ready? No, don't go get that toy! Get within 30ft this instant! Okay, 3, 2, 1...Well, that went swimmingly! Wait...damn it Bob, you had one job! How am I meant to get those guys from the farm now? Right, I can't cast that spell again until I've had a long rest, so I'll have to do it tomorrow...meet me at 9 o'clock sharp in front of the shop. Bob...I'll deal with you later."
Weird how you deliberately imagined a silly scenario, while also managing to get the details of the spell wrong
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I think that a good DM could make good use of Weird for a BBEG in a way that a technically better spell wouldn't. Meteor Swarm will kill more people and destroy a ton of buildings, but Weird, if roleplayed correctly, would be far more interesting, despite doing less damage. If you walk into a village and a bunch of buildings have exploded and everything is on fire, that's certainly harrowing... a great hook for an average party. But you walk in, everything is perfectly intact but everyone is dead, the bodies left in panicked position, some of them have their eyes open wide in abject horror, some others curled up in balls, eyes shut tight, bodies still tense even after death. OoooOOoooohhh spoooOooooOOOOoooky. If the players aren't intimately familiar with all the spells in the game off the top of their head it just looks like maybe an Elder God sprung into life here or something. If they do some solid Arcana rolls or otherwise research this, they could then realize they're facing off against someone capable of casting 9th level spells. Even if you know enough about the game to know that Weird is a junk spell that's only considered 9th level out of tradition, the knowledge that you're battling a 9th level spellcaster is a good indication of the power you're facing off against... just because a spellcaster knows Weird doesn't mean they don't know any other 9th level spells.
Weird is a bad spell, frightened doesn't even mean that the enemy has to run, and they would have to fail 2 saves to even take any of the small amount of damage.
You guys have seen the math from other users, I don't know why people are still saying that weird isn't a bad spell.
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I'm just trying to imagine this scene. Your moustache twirling villain walks into a village. "Hey, guys gather round, Bob go round and gather everyone round. What do you mean, random villager, why wouldn't you gather en masse around a scary BBEG? I'll tell you why, the spell I about to cast news needs you to be within 30ft of me! You don't normally have an entire village get within 30ft of me, so shuffle up closer! Yeah, that's better! Ready? No, don't go get that toy! Get within 30ft this instant! Okay, 3, 2, 1...Well, that went swimmingly! Wait...damn it Bob, you had one job! How am I meant to get those guys from the farm now? Right, I can't cast that spell again until I've had a long rest, so I'll have to do it tomorrow...meet me at 9 o'clock sharp in front of the shop. Bob...I'll deal with you later."
Weird how you deliberately imagined a silly scenario, while also managing to get the details of the spell wrong
It's the scenario you gave. The spell requires all targets to be within 30ft of the place it's targeted at, so no, a village can't be targeted by it. A village is larger than 60ft in diameter (you'd just about cover my to cover my house but not the garden with this spell, let alone a village) and as a 9th level spell can only be cast once a day even by L20 casters. Sure, I was colourful, and I embellished it a bit, but the point remains - the spell isn't capable of doing what you said, which is wipe out a village, short of the comical things happening I mentioned - everyone cooperating. Mechanically, the effects are inferior to an actual L4 spell.
And for the third time, since you've dodged it twice now...what is it that is problematic with making it an actually justifiable L9 spell? Bearing in mind those modifications are ones that would actually go further to provide that horrific flavour you are after?
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I haven't read all of the posts so apologies if anyone has mentioned this but....what about replacing the fear side of things with Confusion; so each creature in the area rolls d10 at the start of their turn to decide how it acts and if they roll a 10 they can act normally except the frightened condition kicks in as well. You can still roll play it as fear invading the victims minds and them seeing their darkesty feasrs etc, it just has a little more oomph to it.
That way its effectively a 9th level confusion that deals damage.
Just asking: has anyone ever used Power Word Stun? It seems even worse. (In your opinion, what is the worst spell?)
I've been in a campaign with it... it's a great spell under very specific conditions, but it's difficult to make optimal use out of. Most of the Power Word spells are like that... It's definitely a Combo spell more than a spell that's extremely useful in its own right. It gives your entire party at minimum one free round to absolutely annihilate somebody. Any spell that doesn't call for a saving throw will pretty universally be less impactful than spells that involve some kind of rolling... you're trading potency for reliability.
Just asking: has anyone ever used Power Word Stun? It seems even worse. (In your opinion, what is the worst spell?)
It's a Con save, which I'd generally harder to beat, so that's good. It's also a L8 spell, which is also an improvement. But yeah, it's not something I'd generally go for. No damage? Risk that you misjudge the HP and is completely wasted? Single target? If I had it prepared for some reason, everyone (including the target) is on their last legs and we just need to postpone their action one turn to kill it before it finished us off? Sure...but it's not something I'd turn to very often.
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I think that a good DM could make good use of Weird for a BBEG in a way that a technically better spell wouldn't. Meteor Swarm will kill more people and destroy a ton of buildings, but Weird, if roleplayed correctly, would be far more interesting, despite doing less damage. If you walk into a village and a bunch of buildings have exploded and everything is on fire, that's certainly harrowing... a great hook for an average party. But you walk in, everything is perfectly intact but everyone is dead, the bodies left in panicked position, some of them have their eyes open wide in abject horror, some others curled up in balls, eyes shut tight, bodies still tense even after death. OoooOOoooohhh spoooOooooOOOOoooky. If the players aren't intimately familiar with all the spells in the game off the top of their head it just looks like maybe an Elder God sprung into life here or something. If they do some solid Arcana rolls or otherwise research this, they could then realize they're facing off against someone capable of casting 9th level spells. Even if you know enough about the game to know that Weird is a junk spell that's only considered 9th level out of tradition, the knowledge that you're battling a 9th level spellcaster is a good indication of the power you're facing off against... just because a spellcaster knows Weird doesn't mean they don't know any other 9th level spells.
Would the BBEG take interesting over effective? And if a spellcaster casts weird, then yes, unless they have some sort of special magic item, then they're out of 9th level slots.
Sorcerers, wizards, and warlocks can only cast one 9th level spell per a day.
Just asking: has anyone ever used Power Word Stun? It seems even worse. (In your opinion, what is the worst spell?)
It's a Con save, which I'd generally harder to beat, so that's good. It's also a L8 spell, which is also an improvement. But yeah, it's not something I'd generally go for. No damage? Risk that you misjudge the HP and is completely wasted? Single target? If I had it prepared for some reason, everyone (including the target) is on their last legs and we just need to postpone their action one turn to kill it before it finished us off? Sure...but it's not something I'd turn to very often.
I agree, theirs a lot of way power word stun could go wrong. But it is 8th level, and does have a great effect if it succeeds (the enemy is stunned). I think it's about as good as weird though, even if it is only an 8th level spell.
Edit: It does work great on enemy spellcasters though, if they've taken even just a bit of damage. Spellcasters usually don't have much HP to start with.
I think that a good DM could make good use of Weird for a BBEG in a way that a technically better spell wouldn't. Meteor Swarm will kill more people and destroy a ton of buildings, but Weird, if roleplayed correctly, would be far more interesting, despite doing less damage. If you walk into a village and a bunch of buildings have exploded and everything is on fire, that's certainly harrowing... a great hook for an average party. But you walk in, everything is perfectly intact but everyone is dead, the bodies left in panicked position, some of them have their eyes open wide in abject horror, some others curled up in balls, eyes shut tight, bodies still tense even after death. OoooOOoooohhh spoooOooooOOOOoooky. If the players aren't intimately familiar with all the spells in the game off the top of their head it just looks like maybe an Elder God sprung into life here or something. If they do some solid Arcana rolls or otherwise research this, they could then realize they're facing off against someone capable of casting 9th level spells. Even if you know enough about the game to know that Weird is a junk spell that's only considered 9th level out of tradition, the knowledge that you're battling a 9th level spellcaster is a good indication of the power you're facing off against... just because a spellcaster knows Weird doesn't mean they don't know any other 9th level spells.
Would the BBEG take interesting over effective? And if a spellcaster casts weird, then yes, unless they have some sort of special magic item, then they're out of 9th level slots.
Sorcerers, wizards, and warlocks can only cast one 9th level spell per a day.
The BBEG wouldn't, but the DM might. If you find... let's say a ballroom that's been hit by Weird, it's very narratively interesting. It's a great Crime Scene to leave behind and let the players figure out what happened. Is it a good spell for a BBEG to stock and rely on in combat? Not at all. If anything it's best value is as a "nice" spell the DM can use to drop a 9th level spell that the players are likely to survive. I don't want to come off as too aggressively defending Weird... it's not well-balanced as a 9th level spell, and the effects it creates can be easily replicated by lower-level spells or just letting the DM homebrew a psychic wave attack or something to get more or less the same effect. But it's a cool way to leave behind a room of disturbing bodies while also telegraphing to your players that they're facing off against a creature that, at minimum, has access to 9th level spells.
Another thing to keep in mind is that NPCs aren't limited to the same rules as PCs. If the DM wants to say that the BBEG can cast Weird 3 times a day without consuming an actual spell slot, then that's how the creature works. It's not much of a defense of the spell... it's still not a good 9th level spell, and I'd wager it doesn't hold up against most 8th level spells either. But it has the potential to be narratively interesting, and for some DMs that's more important than being mechanically powerful.
Personally, I think that just letting the player determine the location of the 'fear' origin (each round, as a free action, independently for all affected, ignoring the 30 ft origin sphere) could be enough to make this spell worth while. The spell is clearly not a damage spell, so it should be a battlefield control.
Are there other spells that let the Player determine in which direction a frightened person runs from?
If you're just using a boss enemy wizard to cast weird and to try scare your players, you're probably just gonna make them grateful that the caster effectively just wasted a turn.
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HERE.Frightened doesn't cause people to run in the first place, it just prevents them from moving in a certain direction.
The fear spell causes people to move away from the source of their fear, but the frightened condition does not. The condition only means you can’t move closer to the source of your fear and imposes disadvantage on attacks and checks while you can see that source.
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Yeah, frightened isn't actually a very powerful condition. Especially if you're a spell caster, because you can just do spells that require saving throws instead of attack rolls.
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HERE.If you're just using a boss enemy wizard to cast meteor swarm and to light a campfire, you're probably just gonna make them grateful that the caster effectively just wasted a turn.
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Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
I haven't read all of the posts so apologies if anyone has mentioned this but....what about replacing the fear side of things with Confusion; so each creature in the area rolls d10 at the start of their turn to decide how it acts and if they roll a 10 they can act normally except the frightened condition kicks in as well. You can still roll play it as fear invading the victims minds and them seeing their darkesty feasrs etc, it just has a little more oomph to it.
That way its effectively a 9th level confusion that deals damage.
It's odd that you quote me as saying that they'd be cruel...and then claim that I said that they wouldn't be.
I'm just trying to imagine this scene. Your moustache twirling villain walks into a village. "Hey, guys gather round, Bob go round and gather everyone round. What do you mean, random villager, why wouldn't you gather en masse around a scary BBEG? I'll tell you why, the spell I about to cast news needs you to be within 30ft of me! You don't normally have an entire village get within 30ft of me, so shuffle up closer! Yeah, that's better! Ready? No, don't go get that toy! Get within 30ft this instant! Okay, 3, 2, 1...Well, that went swimmingly! Wait...damn it Bob, you had one job! How am I meant to get those guys from the farm now? Right, I can't cast that spell again until I've had a long rest, so I'll have to do it tomorrow...meet me at 9 o'clock sharp in front of the shop. Bob...I'll deal with you later."
Yes, it conveys that they're cruel. It also conveys that they're daft because they spent that time and effort learning a spell they can only cast once a day and leave them vulnerable...when a similar spell that does almost the same thing can be learned and cast multiple times a day, and they can learn another spell that uses the same once-a-day slot that can massacre thousands in a fell swoop. It conveys a sadist that isn't all that threatening.
And you ignored the question, why not have it buffed and made into a worthwhile L9 slot spell? Higher damage? Perhaps multiple AoE zones like Meteor Swarm? Someone suggested that rather than causing Frightened, it causes them to be Confused and attack each other instead? How does that detract from your purpose for it? That's what the thread is about. It just doesn't justify a L9 slot. Either lower it, or buff it. Or both. Making it capable of causing the villagers to fight and kill each other, or to cover the entire village, or do more damage doesn't make the caster any less sadistic. Quite the contrary. Being compelled to kill your loved ones in your magically induced sheer terror is far worse than simply being scared to death.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Weird how you deliberately imagined a silly scenario, while also managing to get the details of the spell wrong
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Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
I think that a good DM could make good use of Weird for a BBEG in a way that a technically better spell wouldn't. Meteor Swarm will kill more people and destroy a ton of buildings, but Weird, if roleplayed correctly, would be far more interesting, despite doing less damage. If you walk into a village and a bunch of buildings have exploded and everything is on fire, that's certainly harrowing... a great hook for an average party. But you walk in, everything is perfectly intact but everyone is dead, the bodies left in panicked position, some of them have their eyes open wide in abject horror, some others curled up in balls, eyes shut tight, bodies still tense even after death. OoooOOoooohhh spoooOooooOOOOoooky. If the players aren't intimately familiar with all the spells in the game off the top of their head it just looks like maybe an Elder God sprung into life here or something. If they do some solid Arcana rolls or otherwise research this, they could then realize they're facing off against someone capable of casting 9th level spells. Even if you know enough about the game to know that Weird is a junk spell that's only considered 9th level out of tradition, the knowledge that you're battling a 9th level spellcaster is a good indication of the power you're facing off against... just because a spellcaster knows Weird doesn't mean they don't know any other 9th level spells.
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Weird is a bad spell, frightened doesn't even mean that the enemy has to run, and they would have to fail 2 saves to even take any of the small amount of damage.
You guys have seen the math from other users, I don't know why people are still saying that weird isn't a bad spell.
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HERE.It's the scenario you gave. The spell requires all targets to be within 30ft of the place it's targeted at, so no, a village can't be targeted by it. A village is larger than 60ft in diameter (you'd just about cover my to cover my house but not the garden with this spell, let alone a village) and as a 9th level spell can only be cast once a day even by L20 casters. Sure, I was colourful, and I embellished it a bit, but the point remains - the spell isn't capable of doing what you said, which is wipe out a village, short of the comical things happening I mentioned - everyone cooperating. Mechanically, the effects are inferior to an actual L4 spell.
And for the third time, since you've dodged it twice now...what is it that is problematic with making it an actually justifiable L9 spell? Bearing in mind those modifications are ones that would actually go further to provide that horrific flavour you are after?
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How about adding Exhaustion to it as well?
Just asking: has anyone ever used Power Word Stun? It seems even worse. (In your opinion, what is the worst spell?)
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I've been in a campaign with it... it's a great spell under very specific conditions, but it's difficult to make optimal use out of. Most of the Power Word spells are like that... It's definitely a Combo spell more than a spell that's extremely useful in its own right. It gives your entire party at minimum one free round to absolutely annihilate somebody. Any spell that doesn't call for a saving throw will pretty universally be less impactful than spells that involve some kind of rolling... you're trading potency for reliability.
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It's a Con save, which I'd generally harder to beat, so that's good. It's also a L8 spell, which is also an improvement. But yeah, it's not something I'd generally go for. No damage? Risk that you misjudge the HP and is completely wasted? Single target? If I had it prepared for some reason, everyone (including the target) is on their last legs and we just need to postpone their action one turn to kill it before it finished us off? Sure...but it's not something I'd turn to very often.
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Yeah, it seems very situational.
“Magic is distilled laziness. Put that on my gravestone.”
Would the BBEG take interesting over effective? And if a spellcaster casts weird, then yes, unless they have some sort of special magic item, then they're out of 9th level slots.
Sorcerers, wizards, and warlocks can only cast one 9th level spell per a day.
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HERE.I agree, theirs a lot of way power word stun could go wrong. But it is 8th level, and does have a great effect if it succeeds (the enemy is stunned). I think it's about as good as weird though, even if it is only an 8th level spell.
Edit: It does work great on enemy spellcasters though, if they've taken even just a bit of damage. Spellcasters usually don't have much HP to start with.
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HERE.The BBEG wouldn't, but the DM might. If you find... let's say a ballroom that's been hit by Weird, it's very narratively interesting. It's a great Crime Scene to leave behind and let the players figure out what happened. Is it a good spell for a BBEG to stock and rely on in combat? Not at all. If anything it's best value is as a "nice" spell the DM can use to drop a 9th level spell that the players are likely to survive. I don't want to come off as too aggressively defending Weird... it's not well-balanced as a 9th level spell, and the effects it creates can be easily replicated by lower-level spells or just letting the DM homebrew a psychic wave attack or something to get more or less the same effect. But it's a cool way to leave behind a room of disturbing bodies while also telegraphing to your players that they're facing off against a creature that, at minimum, has access to 9th level spells.
Another thing to keep in mind is that NPCs aren't limited to the same rules as PCs. If the DM wants to say that the BBEG can cast Weird 3 times a day without consuming an actual spell slot, then that's how the creature works. It's not much of a defense of the spell... it's still not a good 9th level spell, and I'd wager it doesn't hold up against most 8th level spells either. But it has the potential to be narratively interesting, and for some DMs that's more important than being mechanically powerful.
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