Quote from Kizzoap >>

It's strange to me that people are bemoaning that this Illusion spell doesn't deal as much raw damage as the ultimate Evocation spell.

 If it had other features that made up for its failings as a damage spell that would be one thing, but area effect fear (save ends) really doesn't qualify.

Power-wise, Weird is roughly on par with Sickening Radiance, which is a 4th level spell.  Except Sickening Radiance's affects aren't ended by a single successful save.

Quote from Kizzoap >>

It's strange to me that people are bemoaning that this Illusion spell doesn't deal as much raw damage as the ultimate Evocation spell.

 That only makes sense if the illusion effects were worth the tradeoff. It causes the Frightened condition. Is that a L9 spell for you? A turn of Frightened for each failed save?

The school shouldn't matter, per se. Apart from niche applications (such as what arcane tradition you are), it's pretty much irrelevant. Would you, in general, prefer to cast Weird or Meteor Swarm? If you have an answer, then there's a problem. Weird does an average of about 25 per target, while Meteor Swarm does about 115. Are you willing to trade 90 damage per target for a little over 50% chance of giving them the Frightened condition?

If you are, fancy having a PvP with me? Spice it up with a bet? If not, then you're agreeing that the spell is worse than another of the same spell slot level. That's not what they should be going for and it should be fixed.

Spells of the same spell slots should be of roughly the same value. I (and a lot of others) don't think getting maybe a round or two of Frightened is worth an 80% reduction in damage. It wouldn't be so bad if you could spam it - continuously casting Weird could be powerful, that could paralyse a small army while everyone else in the party hacks them apart - but you can only cast it once per day. It really ought to be a lower level slot.

Quote from 6thLyranGuard >>

Power-wise, Weird is roughly on par with Sickening Radiance, which is a 4th level spell.  Except Sickening Radiance's affects aren't ended by a single successful save.

 That's a very good point - Sickening Radiance compared to Weird trades Frightened for a level of exhaustion and removing the ability to be invisible from the target(s). Since I haven't heard anyone complaining that Sickening Radiance is insanely OP for a 4th level spell, then it stands to reason that Weird is very underpowered for a 9th level spell.

Quote from Kizzoap >>

It's strange to me that people are bemoaning that this Illusion spell doesn't deal as much raw damage as the ultimate Evocation spell.

 We are "bemoaning" how much damage this spell does because that is one of the main things the spell actually does. Frightened is not a very powerful condition, so the damage should make up for that. However, it only deals a very small amount of damage for a 9th level spell, and your enemies may not even take the damage.

I understand this being used in a fight where there's a billion low wisdom monsters huddled together, but when is that actually going to happen?

There are not many good uses of the spell, and weird certainly should not be 9th level.

I like the idea of adding Exhaustion.to the spell.

I'd add a two save requirement to end the effect.

So, the spell is cast.

Everyone in the 30ft radius effect makes a save vs Wisdom.

Those that fail are Frightened.  

The caster can set the point from which the targets will run, though what the targets actually see will be their greatest fear.

On each consecutive round, the victims take 4d10 and one level of Exhaustion, then they roll another save.

The spell ends when the victim has made two saves.

Quote from BoringBard >>

I understand this being used in a fight where there's a billion low wisdom monsters huddled together, but when is that actually going to happen?

So I have had an NPC cast phantasmal killer in combat, and it was basically used to end a vendetta -- the NPC didn't just want to kill the other person (a wererat gangster that had been extorting them), they wanted them to suffer. If the NPC just wanted them dead, there would have been more efficient methods -- although it turned out to be pretty efficient anyway, as the wererat failed four straight saves

As others have suggested, weird fills the same kind of niche. There are absolutely more efficient ways to destroy a village full of people. This one leaves the buildings intact and sends a very strong, and very evil, message to anyone who finds the bodies

Is that a worthwhile 9th-level spell for a PC? Nope. Is it worth it for a DM to let the party know a caster capable of 9th-level magic committed this atrocity? I think that's still a valid argument

I've gotta say... aside from Weird not being a particularly good spell, I don't really expect it to get "patched" any time soon, since that so rarely happens with 5e... popular spells that are easily exploitable sometimes get updated language that limit their use (like the greater restrictions that got put on the SCAG sword cantrips), but if a spell is "bad" it's generally just accepted that there's a spell you probably shouldn't take somewhere in the spell list. What I am surprised about, however, is the fact that it's still the only official 9th level Illusion spell. There have been plenty of opportunities to introduce a new, "best of the best" illusion spell... I'm sure there are plenty of Homebrew options, but I wonder why no one in an official capacity has bothered with a new one.

Quote from AntonSirius >>

Quote from BoringBard >>

I understand this being used in a fight where there's a billion low wisdom monsters huddled together, but when is that actually going to happen?

 

So I have had an NPC cast phantasmal killer in combat, and it was basically used to end a vendetta -- the NPC didn't just want to kill the other person (a wererat gangster that had been extorting them), they wanted them to suffer. If the NPC just wanted them dead, there would have been more efficient methods -- although it turned out to be pretty efficient anyway, as the wererat failed four straight saves

As others have suggested, weird fills the same kind of niche. There are absolutely more efficient ways to destroy a village full of people. This one leaves the buildings intact and sends a very strong, and very evil, message to anyone who finds the bodies

Is that a worthwhile 9th-level spell for a PC? Nope. Is it worth it for a DM to let the party know a caster capable of 9th-level magic committed this atrocity? I think that's still a valid argument

 There's a lot better ways to do that. Up the damage, increase the number of target areas, make it a worthwhile spell.

I mean, if you want to communicate that the NPC mage is silly and thinks that Weird is a worthwhile spell to learn and cast, great I guess...I don't see that rather constrained niche coming up in my games and would rather it were a functional spell - either by buffing it up or lowering the resource cost in casting it. That way, the NPC can also be made to also seem intelligent as well as cruel.

Quote from BoringBard >>

Quote from Kizzoap >>

It's strange to me that people are bemoaning that this Illusion spell doesn't deal as much raw damage as the ultimate Evocation spell.

 We are "bemoaning" how much damage this spell does because that is one of the main things the spell actually does. Frightened is not a very powerful condition, so the damage should make up for that.

 I think, just as with Phantasmal Killer, there's an expectation made by the devs here here that the effect could be greater than the bare mechanical condition imposed. That, as others have mentioned, the DM would actually roleplay the creatures as surrounded by their greatest fear rather than just slapping a frightened icon on their marker and moving on.

Yes, spells only do what they say they do. But illusion is a messy school. It's basically enchantment with an extra step - ultimately you are influencing the target's agency by changing what they think is going on around them. This is really hard to balance and codify, so they just... didn't. It's yet another instance of kicking the can to the DM to sort it out. So the DM is supposed to see this spell, note its level, and roleplay the affected targets in a manner appropriate to the power level of a 9th-level scary spooktacular showcase.

This isn't an excuse, just what I think went through their minds in the review process. Illusion in general has such loose reins in 5e that it can swing from weak to wildly overpowered depending on how the DM interprets the effects. I guess it's at least consistent that the highest level spell perhaps leans the hardest on the DM for determining the outcome of the spell.

Quote from quindraco >>

Quote from Caerwyn_Glyndwr >>

As with most illusion magic, Weird gets a lot better if your group is actually roleplaying in their roleplaying game, not just treating the illusion as a minor inconvenience (frightened is a pretty mediocre condition as written) and some possibly avoidable damage.  Roleplaying the manifestation of one’s deepest fears for every creature on the battlefield - and the inevitable resultant chaos - could drastically change the course of the battle itself, as combatants each act out their flight or fight response to things that are not there. 

Is it the best ninth level spell? No.  Is it better than some of the trap choices at ninth level like Power Word Kill? Yes.

All told, I wish the capstone spell for an illusionist gave the caster a bit more control over what they generate, but it’s not exactly bad for your biggest spell of that playstyle. 

I'm not saying it's the worst spell in the game - it absolutely is not - but you're missing some key parts of the analysis for unclear reasons.  Let's break it down assuming the same optimal table you just described, since you claimed it's "not exactly bad for your biggest spell of that playstyle":

• Roleplaying the manifestation of one’s deepest fears for every creature on the battlefield - and the inevitable resultant chaos - could drastically change the course of the battle itself, as combatants each act out their flight or fight response to things that are not there.
  • It's not every creature, not that I want to deny the sheer size of a 60 foot diameter sphere (65x65x65 cube on a grid) you can drop down at 120 feet.  One of the reasons you need to be careful about assuming the target count is that this is simply AOE Phantasmal Killer, which is a fourth level spell; if Phantasmal Killer's scaling was target count rather than psychic damage dealt, like Cause Fear (because this is a standard way for such spells to scale), it would target 6 creatures at once, so Weird has to target at least 7 creatures to out-compete a scaled-up level 4 spell.
    • Note that Cause Fear induces a "sense of mortality" and it's unclear why that should be less bad than "deepest fears", making comparisons directly apt, as Cause Fear hits 9 targets at level 9.
  • Vis a vis my point above: it's simultaneously only a finite number of creatures and potentially far too many.  The worse the consequences of Weird happening to you, the bigger a deal it is that the spell is a huge sphere with friendly fire on.  Note that e.g. Illusory Dragon turns the friendly fire off the fear: it won't frighten anyone you tell it not to.  Causing worst fears in the entire battlefield, as you describe it, is absolutely possible with this spell in cramped quarters - and it's a lot harder to sculpt an illusion than an evocation spell to keep the caster safe inside it, let alone their allies.
  • The chaos you're describing is extremely short, since each target gets a Wisdom save for every potential turn they'll spend under the effect.  Fear is level three and uses the same reference to "worst fears"; if your goal is the chaos you're describing, you're a lot better off with the Fear spell most of the time, even though Fear won't scale and will simply waste the L9 slot.
  • Theoretically, one of the reasons you want to frighten an enemy is limiting its movement, as you mentioned when you discussed fight or flight responses.  Weird has the absolutely crippling problem of not telling the person reading the spell where the frightened creature doesn't want to approach (or, at the optimal table, potentially flee): there's no apparent way to tell where, in the creature's mind, the manifestation of its fear is.  Especially if you're at table where you're trying to honor this spell by roleplaying out your fear, you need some basis for figuring out where the fear is, and the basis you come up with is going to directly impact how the spell performs.  Cause Fear and Fear, mentioned above, make the target frightened of the caster, as do Wrathful Smite and Eyebite; Symbol and Antipathy/Sympathy make creatures frightened of the spell's target, and Illusory Dragon makes creatures frightened of a manifested spell object with a determinable location.  Phantasmal Killer and Weird are the only spells in the game that make a creature frightened and then you have no way to figure out where they don't want to approach (or potentially want to flee).
• All told, I wish the capstone spell for an illusionist gave the caster a bit more control over what they generate, but it’s not exactly bad for your biggest spell of that playstyle. 
  • The capstone spell for an illusionist is Mirage Arcane - Malleable Illusions and Illusory Reality both work extremely well with it and neither works in any way with Weird except in the corner case where the illusionist both has some way to know what a target's deepest fear is and when that fear includes an object that can be made real with Illusory Reality. 
  • Mental Prison and Programmed Illusion both have excellent synergy with Illusionist abilities as well, if you need to cast a spell in 1 action.
  • Ignoring illusionists specifically, the most broadly powerful illusion spell in the game is simulacrum, something so very true that any wizard that doesn't make it their business to get it into their spellbook is wizarding wrong.

Weird is a bad spell for illusionists and a bad spell for triggering the worst fears of the targets, and so it's bad on both levels at once, as well.  As a general rule, no Warlock should ever learn it as their Mystic Arcanum, and while a Wizard might put it in their spellbook because why not, no Wizard should ever bother preparing it over superior options for the same goal - because lower-level spells are better, all wizards are better off casting wish and simulating a lower-level illusion spell than they are casting weird (as noted above, especially Illusionists - Mirage Arcane will straight-up outperform Weird for causing battlefield chaos that the illusionist can control than Weird ever could).

 
It is frankly impressive that you managed to write so much while ignoring my point completely.  Your problem - and it is a problem I find far too many DMs and players have - is that you are only looking at the strict mechanics of a spell that is not designed to be viewed strictly mechanically.

This is a spell that requires a DM and players who actually can roleplay to pull off successfully - something that feeds on a character’s worst fears and disrupts them to their very core.  Something that is going to trigger fight or flight response (likely wasting their actions attacking the illusion or dashing away). Something that might make them susceptible to various forms of deception or persuasion. Something that provides a major distraction that would eclipse the party if necessary.

As I already said - it is a bad spell mechanically (PWK is probably the only worse lever 9 spells if we go raw mechanics), but if one is only viewing illusions through “what does this spell do on paper”, I would argue that would be missing the point of playing/DMing for an illusion mage.

As I already said - it is a spell that requires a degree of roleplaying, but with even a modicum of roleplaying talent, it is pretty easy to see how it could be utilised in a number of powerful and more-effective-than-simply-as-written ways. 

Quote from Caerwyn_Glyndwr >>

It is frankly impressive that you managed to write so much while ignoring my point completely.  Your problem - and it is a problem I find far too many DMs and players have - is that you are only looking at the strict mechanics of a spell that is not designed to be viewed strictly mechanically.

 Given that there's nothing in the spell that hints at a different way of handling it, that's the correct way to do it. Now, if it were an upgraded phantasmal force with all the verbiage about the victim treating the illusion as real it would be another story (and making it use phantasmal force mechanics would also make the spell a lot better).

If you are looking to do "MaXiMuM dAmAgE" go with Evocation.  Illusion is not meant to be the Michael Bay School of Magic. That being said, they should increase the potency of the Condition that it causes not the damage.

Quote from Linklite >>

There's a lot better ways to do that. Up the damage, increase the number of target areas, make it a worthwhile spell.

I mean, if you want to communicate that the NPC mage is silly and thinks that Weird is a worthwhile spell to learn and cast, great I guess...I don't see that rather constrained niche coming up in my games and would rather it were a functional spell - either by buffing it up or lowering the resource cost in casting it. That way, the NPC can also be made to also seem intelligent as well as cruel.

You walk into a small village and find someone wiped out everyone by frightening them to death using weird. Stood there and watched them die, in terror

If you decide that means they're "silly" and not sadistic, then you definitely are not playing in the same kinds of campaigns I am

Quote from Pantagruel666 >>

Quote from Caerwyn_Glyndwr >>

It is frankly impressive that you managed to write so much while ignoring my point completely.  Your problem - and it is a problem I find far too many DMs and players have - is that you are only looking at the strict mechanics of a spell that is not designed to be viewed strictly mechanically.

 Given that there's nothing in the spell that hints at a different way of handling it, that's the correct way to do it. Now, if it were an upgraded phantasmal force with all the verbiage about the victim treating the illusion as real it would be another story (and making it use phantasmal force mechanics would also make the spell a lot better).

 
I always have a hard time taking any “correct” way to play D&D argument seriously, but in particular when dealing with illusions - a field of magic whose purpose is to warp perception of reality around it.

The hint that you are supposed to roleplay isn’t in the spell description itself - it doesn’t need to be - it’s in the name of the genera of game itself. 

Quote from Caerwyn_Glyndwr >>

Quote from Pantagruel666 >>

Quote from Caerwyn_Glyndwr >>

It is frankly impressive that you managed to write so much while ignoring my point completely.  Your problem - and it is a problem I find far too many DMs and players have - is that you are only looking at the strict mechanics of a spell that is not designed to be viewed strictly mechanically.

 Given that there's nothing in the spell that hints at a different way of handling it, that's the correct way to do it. Now, if it were an upgraded phantasmal force with all the verbiage about the victim treating the illusion as real it would be another story (and making it use phantasmal force mechanics would also make the spell a lot better).

 
I always have a hard time taking any “correct” way to play D&D argument seriously, but in particular when dealing with illusions - a field of magic whose purpose is to warp perception of reality around it.

 

 And yet you just made one.

Quote from Caerwyn_Glyndwr >>

I always have a hard time taking any “correct” way to play D&D argument seriously, but in particular when dealing with illusions - a field of magic whose purpose is to warp perception of reality around it.

The hint that you are supposed to roleplay isn’t in the spell description itself - it doesn’t need to be - it’s in the name of the genera of game itself. 

Rules are not supposed to operate on a hint basis, because the point of rules is neutral adjudication of effects. If it's supposed to be more debilitating than the game mechanics say, it should say so.

Quote from Pantagruel666 >>

Quote from Caerwyn_Glyndwr >>

I always have a hard time taking any “correct” way to play D&D argument seriously, but in particular when dealing with illusions - a field of magic whose purpose is to warp perception of reality around it.

The hint that you are supposed to roleplay isn’t in the spell description itself - it doesn’t need to be - it’s in the name of the genera of game itself. 

Rules are not supposed to operate on a hint basis, because the point of rules is neutral adjudication of effects. If it's supposed to be more debilitating than the game mechanics say, it should say so.

 
I would consider that the Gygax view on the rules, but Arneson - who equally created D&D - took the other perspective - that rules are mere hints and guidelines and one should be able to act out the game and act on roleplay conclusions from the flavour text.  Both options are correct ways to play and have been correct ways to play since the game’s very inception.  Arneson’s view on D&D has been the predominant one with Wizards since 5e’s release (and growing stronger with each new change) - and it is through that lens that Wizards likely chose to make it 9th level.  

Ignoring the roleplaying implications in game and going with RAW is fine - but you cannot ignore the possibility of such implications when evaluating the spell for what spell slot it should be at - as then you are ignoring a large part of what Wizards considered when making the spell.  To ignore that part in the evaluation stage is like asking “why did this movie get a PG-13 rating, they did not say any swear words or have any violence that would traditionally give a film such a rating”, while ignoring the existence of older themes in the film. 

Quote from Golaryn >>

If you are looking to do "MaXiMuM dAmAgE" go with Evocation.  Illusion is not meant to be the Michael Bay School of Magic. That being said, they should increase the potency of the Condition that it causes not the damage.

Yeah, that feels like the divide here -- some folks are only looking at the spell for its combat utility (which is poor) and not for its storytelling utility

When I had the NPC illusionist use phantasmal killer, I think I gave it a de facto "reduces speed to 0" effect because there was nowhere the target could move that got them away from the thing they were frightened of. And of course, they had disadvantage on all their attacks because the thing frightening them was always in line of sight, no matter where they looked. The only escape was a successful saving throw, which they never made

Quote from Caerwyn_Glyndwr >>

I would consider that the Gygax view on the rules, but Arneson - who equally created D&D - took the other perspective - that rules are mere hints and guidelines and one should be able to act out the game and act on roleplay conclusions from the flavour text.  Both options are correct ways to play and have been correct ways to play since the game’s very inception.  Arneson’s view on D&D has been the predominant one with Wizards since 5e’s release (and growing stronger with each new change) - and it is through that lens that Wizards likely chose to make it 9th level. 

 Wizards made it 9th level because it was 9th level in previous editions. Where it was a save or die.

There is a difference between "the rules are silent on X, so you should rely on the flavor text" and "the rules explicitly say what the effects are". A competently worded weird that actually does what you're wanting it to do is something like:

Drawing on the deepest fears of a group of creatures, you create illusory creatures in their minds, visible only to them. Each creature in a 30-foot-radius sphere centered on a point of your choice within range must make a Wisdom saving throw. On a failed save, the illusion calls on the creature's deepest fears, manifesting its worst nightmares as an implacable threat. The affected creature is frightened and will treat the threat as real (the DM decides what this means; typically fleeing or dodging). At the end of the creature's turn, it may repeat the save; on a success the spell ends for that creature, on a failure it takes 4d10 psychic damage, which it will rationalize as whatever damage type the threat ought to do.

That's more verbose than existing text, and still fairly underwhelming damage, but at least it usually costs targets their actions.