The first sentence in the Monk section about Ki says "Monks make careful study of a magical energy that most monastic traditions call ki."
The SAC clarifies how to tell if something is magical:
Determining whether a game feature is magical is straightforward. Ask yourself these questions about the feature:
• Is it a spell? Or does it let you create the effects of a spell that’s mentioned in its description? • Is it a spell attack? • Is it fueled by the use of spell slots? • Does its description say it’s magical?
Thus Ki is magical for RAW purposes.
Nope. You're quoting from flavor and lore description, not rules text.
Per Jeremy Crawford: "Neither the Ki feature nor the Stunning Strike feature (PH, 78 & 79) is defined as magical for game purposes."
In the same twitter thread Dan Dillon (another WotC D&D dev) adds, "For clarity's sake, the confusion comes from the lore section on Ki from pg 76: "The Magic of Ki."" Further, JCraw adds "That is an example of the background magic I talked about in Sage Advice. Look for "Is the breath weapon of a dragon magical?"" From the referenced question, his response is "The breath weapon of a typical dragon is not magical."
So per the designers of the game, no, ki is not magic.
This is one of those times where Crawford seems to have not bothered to actually read the rules before making a ruling on them. The idea that a dragon's breath weapon is completely nonmagical is honestly ridiculous. Are we to believe that white dragons somehow produce liquid nitrogen as part of their metabolism? Or the fact that monks use ki points to cast spells yet ki isn't magic?
I don't see why not. It's just fantasy biology for fictional creatures.
The first sentence in the Monk section about Ki says "Monks make careful study of a magical energy that most monastic traditions call ki."
The SAC clarifies how to tell if something is magical:
Determining whether a game feature is magical is straightforward. Ask yourself these questions about the feature:
• Is it a spell? Or does it let you create the effects of a spell that’s mentioned in its description? • Is it a spell attack? • Is it fueled by the use of spell slots? • Does its description say it’s magical?
Thus Ki is magical for RAW purposes.
Nope. You're quoting from flavor and lore description, not rules text.
Per Jeremy Crawford: "Neither the Ki feature nor the Stunning Strike feature (PH, 78 & 79) is defined as magical for game purposes."
In the same twitter thread Dan Dillon (another WotC D&D dev) adds, "For clarity's sake, the confusion comes from the lore section on Ki from pg 76: "The Magic of Ki."" Further, JCraw adds "That is an example of the background magic I talked about in Sage Advice. Look for "Is the breath weapon of a dragon magical?"" From the referenced question, his response is "The breath weapon of a typical dragon is not magical."
So per the designers of the game, no, ki is not magic.
jeremy crawfords tweets are not usable as any part of the debate, or any debate, as they have been stated to not be RAW or even RAI by wizards of the coast themselves, and have proven to openly contradict themselves
your also using a tweet from 2016, the SAC, or sage advice compenduim which was updated in 2021, is a collection of answers of RAI, from the game designers themselves produced by WOTC, farling has a better source and is in this case correct, if we use the official RAI source on how to read it by RAW, it is in fact, magical
Reborn and Warforged lack blood but can use ki just fine.
So can the Autognome if it makes it to print.
Do they explicitly not have blood and can they be considered to have living bodies? Because they could harbor blood and souls inside of themselves like some FNAF monster?
also, warforged explictely are made of wood and steel, so no its not blood unless you consider sap blood. seeing ki as blood is an interesting take, but i feel like ki would be the innate magic in that blood, not the blood itself, so its moreso of another way to manipulate magic
Think of ki as the ability to manipulate energy. While in an anti-magic field, you've still got the energy but you can't manipulate it. Sort of like how a Beholder in an anti-magic field doesn't spontaneously die. As far as what are the consequences of something losing all its ki? Well there aren't any rules for ki beyond the Monk's class abilities. So who can say?
If you can't manipulate ki while in an antimagic field because it's magic, then it shouldn't be possible to enter the field with your ki; but if ki isn't magic, then ki shouldn't be affected by the field.
"An element of the magic that suffuses the multiverse—specifically, the element that flows through living bodies." though this sentence doesn't define ki, it points out two descriptions of what it is: it doesn't directly state that ki is magic, but rather an element of a type of magic, and that it is the only element that flows through living bodies.
By inductive reasoning if their were one thing that flows through living bodies more than anything else it would be blood, therefore the magic that suffuses the multiverse is composed of blood, which makes it blood magic.
Seems pretty clear you really want ki to be blood magic. The bad news is, you're wrong. My monk drains all his ki between every short rest and still manages to stay alive.
The good news is, you can say that ki is blood in your setting. Knock yourself out!
Nope. You're quoting from flavor and lore description, not rules text.
Normally I'd back you up on this, but the SAC ruling literally says to reference the description to determine if its magical. Thus for the purpose of determining whether something is magic, the word "magical" is essentially a rules-level keyword in the description.
Personally, I like to think of ki as the same kind of "natural magic" that dragons use to breathe, so I house rule it to not be magic, just like psionics are not magic. But that is just me and my table.
If a character with a soul passes through an Antimagic Field their soul doesn't disappear right, but their ki does?
No, neither disappears. Antimagic Field has no listed interactions with magical energy, so it doesn't make magical energy disappear.
In the monk's details section "The magic of Ki" it states that Ki is "an element of the magic that suffuses the multiverse—specifically, the element that flows through living bodies." So if all living bodies have ki what function does Ki have if it's not the soul?
Woa. Just because ki flows through living bodies doesn't mean all living bodies have ki, and just because energy is flowing through a living body, that doesn't mean it has a function. We also haven't established that souls have functions, either. I can make up multiple answers for you, none with an actual basis in 5E, that fail to contradict any text we have, which means we don't have one right answer. Ask your DM.
Is Ki actually an intrinsic part of all living physical beings
Your DM could rule that it is, but they could also rule that it is not. For example, it could well be that oozes, despite being living physical beings, don't have any ki flowing through them.
and what are the consequences if Ki is entirely removed from a character?
I'm not going to continue listing every other creature that uses hemolymph, but hemolymph is definitionally not blood.
Awakened Tree (or, if you want to argue that the Awaken spell forces the target to have blood, an unawakened tree is still a living body which hasn't got blood)
We'll get into some very strange weeds (pun intended) if you make me list every Plant creature that presumably doesn't have blood but we have no basis for verification beyond knowing a lot about plants.
As a general rule, any creature that doesn't need to breathe or eat isn't going to have blood, because blood's only real function is carrying food and air. After that, it's a question of what you count as "living" - is a Guardian Naga alive?
Ki is an idea taken from the pre-scientific understanding of biology developed in Southeast Asia. It's roughly equivalent to humorology.I think you'll be better served by doing some research into that idea, as your answer will have cosmological implications for the constructed world you game in.
Reborn and Warforged lack blood but can use ki just fine.
So can the Autognome if it makes it to print.
"an element of the magic that suffuses the multiverse—specifically, the element that flows through living bodies"
Not sure if it helps but ki could exist in different forms, for some like humans it could be blood, while for creatures without blood it could be something else.
If a character with a soul passes through an Antimagic Field their soul doesn't disappear right, but their ki does?
No, neither disappears. Antimagic Field has no listed interactions with magical energy, so it doesn't make magical energy disappear.
In the monk's details section "The magic of Ki" it states that Ki is "an element of the magic that suffuses the multiverse—specifically, the element that flows through living bodies." So if all living bodies have ki what function does Ki have if it's not the soul?
Woa. Just because ki flows through living bodies doesn't mean all living bodies have ki, and just because energy is flowing through a living body, that doesn't mean it has a function. We also haven't established that souls have functions, either. I can make up multiple answers for you, none with an actual basis in 5E, that fail to contradict any text we have, which means we don't have one right answer. Ask your DM.
Is Ki actually an intrinsic part of all living physical beings
Your DM could rule that it is, but they could also rule that it is not. For example, it could well be that oozes, despite being living physical beings, don't have any ki flowing through them.
and what are the consequences if Ki is entirely removed from a character?
There are no consequences for being at 0 Ki.
I don't know if having 0 ki points is the same as being empty of ki, if ki is generated from the monk, it could still exist in amounts that are unusable for class features, possibly regenerating it like new blood cells. Also ki could still be blood and monks just don't have any explicitly stated penalties to blood loss
I never did like the Monk either in the original advanced or the 5th edition.
But their should be a much better unarmed combat system for the game for everyone to learn if they want.
Almost all other monk features can be turned into feats.
I also think that shields should be given better rules. Or even used as a trained weapon and thus a second weapon for those able to fight with two weapons.
I never did like the Monk either in the original advanced or the 5th edition.
But their should be a much better unarmed combat system for the game for everyone to learn if they want.
Almost all other monk features can be turned into feats.
I also think that shields should be given better rules. Or even used as a trained weapon and thus a second weapon for those able to fight with two weapons.
Fighter subclass anyone? Maybe also have a version for barbarian or rogue?
Hosted a battle between the Cult of Sedge and the Forum Countershere(Done now). I_Love_Tarrasques has won the fight, scoring a victory for the fiendish Moderators.
Ki in the real world is your ability to control the life energies passing thru you and or around you. In DnD terms there is really little to distinguish Ki points from psionic points from sorcery points - they mark how many times you can alter the energies in and around you to do something specific and unusual to yourself, someone else or to the world around you. If you are attempting to cast a magic spell or create a magical effect and your inside an anti magic circle it’s not going to work. If you are altering something in your or another persons internal energy flow (healings, dim mark, etc) it might work (upto the DM).
The first sentence in the Monk section about Ki says "Monks make careful study of a magical energy that most monastic traditions call ki."
The SAC clarifies how to tell if something is magical:
Determining whether a game feature is magical is straightforward. Ask yourself these questions about the feature:
• Is it a spell? Or does it let you create the effects of a spell that’s mentioned in its description? • Is it a spell attack? • Is it fueled by the use of spell slots? • Does its description say it’s magical?
Thus Ki is magical for RAW purposes.
Nope. You're quoting from flavor and lore description, not rules text.
Per Jeremy Crawford: "Neither the Ki feature nor the Stunning Strike feature (PH, 78 & 79) is defined as magical for game purposes."
There's no such thing as flavor text.
The SAC rules (which supercede tweets from 2016) specify how to tell if something is magic.
It's description says it is magical - so it is magical.
The SAC rules (which supercede tweets from 2016) specify how to tell if something is magic.
It's description says it is magical - so it is magical.
I think flavor text can exist, not everything that is written is meant to be taken literally, but if it is, then it should be explicitly sectioned in a rules or feature section. Also the ambiguity of class descriptions that aren't explicitly flavor text or rules could indicate that the text is meant to be interpreted subjectively.
The SAC rules (which supercede tweets from 2016) specify how to tell if something is magic.
It's description says it is magical - so it is magical.
I think flavor text can exist, not everything that is written is meant to be taken literally, but if it is, then it should be explicitly sectioned in a rules or feature section. Also the ambiguity of class descriptions that aren't explicitly flavor text or rules could indicate that the text is meant to be interpretive.
thats fair, but in relevance to this discussion though, and how SAC rules it, ki is to be interpreted as magical via is description
"—specifically, the element that flows through living bodies"
I disagree with this bit and think it is likely to be changed at some point eventually, as it implies you cannot have undead monks i.e. vampire monks for example; and you totally can.
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Thank you for your time and please have a very pleasant day.
"—specifically, the element that flows through living bodies"
I disagree with this bit and think it is likely to be changed at some point eventually, as it implies you cannot have undead monks i.e. vampire monks for example; and you totally can.
It is possible, rules and flavor text can easily be changed and adapted across different editions and versions of a game, regardless of whether the changes are better, worse or just meant to be something new and different, because the owners and developers can do whatever they want with their independent properties; if wizards of the coast wanted to, they could make the most nonsensical and terrible modules that rival even the worst homebrew adventures, but they wouldn't or no one would buy them, so they have to either succeed in making modules with good flavor text and rules or fail and go out of business.
In summary, what determines the definition, changes and clarifications of rules and flavor text is the wizard of the coast's business model, so the real world is the ultimate determining factor.
Ki is an idea taken from the pre-scientific understanding of biology developed in Southeast Asia. It's roughly equivalent to humorology.I think you'll be better served by doing some research into that idea, as your answer will have cosmological implications for the constructed world you game in.
This is true. We've seen it multiple times in modern media, the most popular one being Avatar: The Last Airbender in its subjects of Chi(Ki in this case) Blocking, Chakras, and Jings, and shows like Naruto and Dragon Ball. Taking this idea, it is very much related to soul and spirit-like subjects.
Ki in the real world is your ability to control the life energies passing thru you and or around you. In DnD terms there is really little to distinguish Ki points from psionic points from sorcery points - they mark how many times you can alter the energies in and around you to do something specific and unusual to yourself, someone else or to the world around you. If you are attempting to cast a magic spell or create a magical effect and your inside an anti magic circle it’s not going to work. If you are altering something in your or another persons internal energy flow (healings, dim mark, etc) it might work (upto the DM).
This works as well for the purposes of mechanics and flavor. It's made to distinguish your character from another Fighter or Rogue or Barbarian. And on the subject of Antimagic Fields, spells that would affect that area normally are only canceled out in that area. So if a Wall of Fire or a Lightning Bolt were to pass through that field, both of the spells would simply have a gap between the origin point and the end of their ranges. Unless the Ki is used to cast a spell, like some of the Four Elements Monk's abilities say, I would not consider Ki effects to be magical in the sense of being affected by Antimagic Fields or other stuff like the Gnome's magical effect save advantage.
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I don't see why not. It's just fantasy biology for fictional creatures.
jeremy crawfords tweets are not usable as any part of the debate, or any debate, as they have been stated to not be RAW or even RAI by wizards of the coast themselves, and have proven to openly contradict themselves
your also using a tweet from 2016, the SAC, or sage advice compenduim which was updated in 2021, is a collection of answers of RAI, from the game designers themselves produced by WOTC, farling has a better source and is in this case correct, if we use the official RAI source on how to read it by RAW, it is in fact, magical
also, warforged explictely are made of wood and steel, so no its not blood unless you consider sap blood. seeing ki as blood is an interesting take, but i feel like ki would be the innate magic in that blood, not the blood itself, so its moreso of another way to manipulate magic
Seems pretty clear you really want ki to be blood magic. The bad news is, you're wrong. My monk drains all his ki between every short rest and still manages to stay alive.
The good news is, you can say that ki is blood in your setting. Knock yourself out!
Normally I'd back you up on this, but the SAC ruling literally says to reference the description to determine if its magical. Thus for the purpose of determining whether something is magic, the word "magical" is essentially a rules-level keyword in the description.
Personally, I like to think of ki as the same kind of "natural magic" that dragons use to breathe, so I house rule it to not be magic, just like psionics are not magic. But that is just me and my table.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
No, neither disappears. Antimagic Field has no listed interactions with magical energy, so it doesn't make magical energy disappear.
Woa. Just because ki flows through living bodies doesn't mean all living bodies have ki, and just because energy is flowing through a living body, that doesn't mean it has a function. We also haven't established that souls have functions, either. I can make up multiple answers for you, none with an actual basis in 5E, that fail to contradict any text we have, which means we don't have one right answer. Ask your DM.
Your DM could rule that it is, but they could also rule that it is not. For example, it could well be that oozes, despite being living physical beings, don't have any ki flowing through them.
There are no consequences for being at 0 Ki.
In case it is somehow relevant, here is a (very incomplete partial) list of living bodies from the Monster Manual that don't have blood.
Ki is an idea taken from the pre-scientific understanding of biology developed in Southeast Asia. It's roughly equivalent to humorology.I think you'll be better served by doing some research into that idea, as your answer will have cosmological implications for the constructed world you game in.
"an element of the magic that suffuses the multiverse—specifically, the element that flows through living bodies"
Not sure if it helps but ki could exist in different forms, for some like humans it could be blood, while for creatures without blood it could be something else.
I don't know if having 0 ki points is the same as being empty of ki, if ki is generated from the monk, it could still exist in amounts that are unusable for class features, possibly regenerating it like new blood cells. Also ki could still be blood and monks just don't have any explicitly stated penalties to blood loss
I never did like the Monk either in the original advanced or the 5th edition.
But their should be a much better unarmed combat system for the game for everyone to learn if they want.
Almost all other monk features can be turned into feats.
I also think that shields should be given better rules. Or even used as a trained weapon and thus a second weapon for those able to fight with two weapons.
Fighter subclass anyone? Maybe also have a version for barbarian or rogue?
Subclass Evaluations So Far:
Sorcerer
Warlock
My statblock. Fear me!
Hosted a battle between the Cult of Sedge and the Forum Counters here(Done now). I_Love_Tarrasques has won the fight, scoring a victory for the fiendish Moderators.
Ki in the real world is your ability to control the life energies passing thru you and or around you. In DnD terms there is really little to distinguish Ki points from psionic points from sorcery points - they mark how many times you can alter the energies in and around you to do something specific and unusual to yourself, someone else or to the world around you. If you are attempting to cast a magic spell or create a magical effect and your inside an anti magic circle it’s not going to work. If you are altering something in your or another persons internal energy flow (healings, dim mark, etc) it might work (upto the DM).
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
I believe you've posted in the wrong thread.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
There's no such thing as flavor text.
The SAC rules (which supercede tweets from 2016) specify how to tell if something is magic.
It's description says it is magical - so it is magical.
I think flavor text can exist, not everything that is written is meant to be taken literally, but if it is, then it should be explicitly sectioned in a rules or feature section. Also the ambiguity of class descriptions that aren't explicitly flavor text or rules could indicate that the text is meant to be interpreted subjectively.
thats fair, but in relevance to this discussion though, and how SAC rules it, ki is to be interpreted as magical via is description
"—specifically, the element that flows through living bodies"
I disagree with this bit and think it is likely to be changed at some point eventually, as it implies you cannot have undead monks i.e. vampire monks for example; and you totally can.
Thank you for your time and please have a very pleasant day.
It is possible, rules and flavor text can easily be changed and adapted across different editions and versions of a game, regardless of whether the changes are better, worse or just meant to be something new and different, because the owners and developers can do whatever they want with their independent properties; if wizards of the coast wanted to, they could make the most nonsensical and terrible modules that rival even the worst homebrew adventures, but they wouldn't or no one would buy them, so they have to either succeed in making modules with good flavor text and rules or fail and go out of business.
In summary, what determines the definition, changes and clarifications of rules and flavor text is the wizard of the coast's business model, so the real world is the ultimate determining factor.
This is true. We've seen it multiple times in modern media, the most popular one being Avatar: The Last Airbender in its subjects of Chi(Ki in this case) Blocking, Chakras, and Jings, and shows like Naruto and Dragon Ball. Taking this idea, it is very much related to soul and spirit-like subjects.
This works as well for the purposes of mechanics and flavor. It's made to distinguish your character from another Fighter or Rogue or Barbarian. And on the subject of Antimagic Fields, spells that would affect that area normally are only canceled out in that area. So if a Wall of Fire or a Lightning Bolt were to pass through that field, both of the spells would simply have a gap between the origin point and the end of their ranges. Unless the Ki is used to cast a spell, like some of the Four Elements Monk's abilities say, I would not consider Ki effects to be magical in the sense of being affected by Antimagic Fields or other stuff like the Gnome's magical effect save advantage.