I'm a bit confused about the title of this thread, which mentions Magic Weapons specifically, but none of the examples listed were weapons. I was expecting this to be one of those times where the players refuse the magic weapons they find because they don't want to use those particular weapons (like if they found a magic axe, but the martial fighters in the party all prefer swords).
I feel your pain. The players in my current group are a bit, shall we say,... Dense as dwarven bread? And uncurious. And uncaring, but thats a rant for another day.
Killed a nothic, its body falls in a shallow ravine (where its treasure is). OK, move on, next room.
Find a room with a group of bugbears excavating a pile of gravel (treasure buried there). OK, kill the bugbears, move on, next room.
Find a magic candle. OK, stick it in the bag of holding, forget about it until the GM reminds them they have unidentified magic items (more than one player responded to this with "no we don't" sheesh).
Find a pool of water with a skeleton on the bottom (it had a wand entangled in its rib bones). OK, move on, next room.
Find a fountain with a rope tied to a rock going into the water (sack of treasure on the end of the rope). OK, move on, next room.
And so on.
Am I mean as a GM? I give hints but if the players aren't picking up on them then they lose the treasure. There are rewards for paying attention.
I also have magic weapons being used by bad guys. Want the weapon? Kill the bad guy and loot their corpse. Oh, you ran away? I guess you don't get the item.
I feel your pain. The players in my current group are a bit, shall we say,... Dense as dwarven bread? And uncurious. And uncaring, but thats a rant for another day.
Killed a nothic, its body falls in a shallow ravine (where its treasure is). OK, move on, next room.
Find a room with a group of bugbears excavating a pile of gravel (treasure buried there). OK, kill the bugbears, move on, next room.
Find a magic candle. OK, stick it in the bag of holding, forget about it until the GM reminds them they have unidentified magic items (more than one player responded to this with "no we don't" sheesh).
Find a pool of water with a skeleton on the bottom (it had a wand entangled in its rib bones). OK, move on, next room.
Find a fountain with a rope tied to a rock going into the water (sack of treasure on the end of the rope). OK, move on, next room.
And so on.
Am I mean as a GM? I give hints but if the players aren't picking up on them then they lose the treasure. There are rewards for paying attention.
I also have magic weapons being used by bad guys. Want the weapon? Kill the bad guy and loot their corpse. Oh, you ran away? I guess you don't get the item.
I think the main difference though, between what your posting and what the OP originally posted, is are you reminding your players when they move on to the next room that they missed stuff or could have found things?
In your case, your players aren't being thorough or following the clues you give and even arguing they didn't pick up magic things (although I suppose their could be a question on how they were supposed to know the one candle was magical...but that's not really the point). In the OP's case he specifically tells them after the fact and than doesn't let them try to go back or rectify the situation (they went back for one thing and it was gone, they weren't even allowed to steal the one ring back)... some of the thing's the OP mentioned would be slightly okay if he wasn't constantly (and that's the way it seems based off what was written) telling them they missed things or they could have had that and so forth... so basically is players are missing things and being chided for missing them. In your case it seems like your players are missing things and than saying that they aren't... a little bit of a different situation, at least to me.
I look at it like the DM was trying to teach the new players not punish them.
If the DN did it for the next 10 sessions then yes its more then likely a problem point but if it was only done until the players either learned or the DM was satisfied that they just would not even look for the goods after learning then everything is fine.
They could just hack and slash players to the core.
I look at it like the DM was trying to teach the new players not punish them.
If the DN did it for the next 10 sessions then yes its more then likely a problem point but if it was only done until the players either learned or the DM was satisfied that they just would not even look for the goods after learning then everything is fine.
They could just hack and slash players to the core.
I mean we don't know if these players are new or if they are experienced (although based off the stories I'd argue they are closer towards newer than experienced and even than depending on how many tables they played at doesn't even mean you have experience for all issues and what not). So I'm just going to compare things as if these were new players.
Scenario One: "Later they returned to the quest giver who asked if they came across a bag, which helped the quest keeper haul a LOT of ore back, and one of the player realised it was a bag of holding. They returned to the mine a few days later and by then it was gone."
So in scenario one (and given how the OP was being detailed he probably mentioned it after the fact like he stated prior to giving clues or such strong hints at the start of the quest) the only way the players should have know to go after the bag is that the "Neogi" was interested in it.. I mean there could have been lots of interesting things in it (and even based off that description alone I wouldn't have thought it was a bag of holding, would have checked if it was magical but we don't know the parties make up and if they even have a set up for that) and at that point it sounded like they were trying to make sure the dwarves got home safely (again we don't even know the perimeter of the quest). If the DM was trying to teach the players, as was suggested, when they went back he could have set up a decent investigation check for the ability to be able to find said bag again.. but nope just gone.
Scenario Two: "You realize this was a magic ring?", to which the character then asked if can he buy or steal it back. I said, "no, I'm just telling you so you know for next time. There is absolutely no way to get this ring back!"
So at this point we know a Rogue is in the party (although not one type) and again the OP randomly tells the player they realize it is magic after the fact. Than the player expresses interest in trying to get it back, which again OP could have set a decent to moderate (perhaps even high) DC to let them try (and maybe if they got a decent number failed to get the main objective could have walked away with something else that they could have learned to identify or tried too) but nope everything kabashed and like "Nope". Now again, RAW the rules state you can feel magic items by touching them... and even if you weren't playing strict RAW there are other things you can do to set up your players to try to learn versus chiding them... which isn't what happened in this situation.
I hate puzzles I myself would probably have not bothered because I'm bad at them (we have little puzzle play in our games because we are in fact bad as a group at them, even though we have out of the box thinking... one of the puzzles the DM recently set up wasn't doable because he didn't know what are players had. Based off that I'm not going to comment on that event.... and the fourth one there is no resolution so why bother trying to comment on that one.
Also, the OP did ask if he was being too harsh, which is why some of the posters felt the need to point flaws in the view point that was presented. I don't think the OP is purposely trying to do their players wrong, I do however think they are being too harsh on their players. If they are trying to teach them to do these things and think of such actions their are ways to do so instead of "nope you missed it this time, remember next time".
Concerning the magic ring, I believe the OP was telling their players out of game that they screwed up as a way to teach them a lesson. Since it's the players who know that the ring is magical and not the characters, they can't possibly metagame their way out of it. Such a lesson can be useful to teach players to be more careful in the future.
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Age: 33 | Sex: Male | Languages: French and English | Roles: DM and Player
@TransmorpherDDS Aha, whoops, yes. You are right, my mistake, I should have titled Magic Items, not Weapons!!!!
@TheGnome5786 - you are correct, I was hoping that it came across as a lesson for the guys to check their stuff, but admittedly I could have done a better job.
@Justen_Wildwing - you surmised correctly, they are new players, though now it's been a year of playing nearly every 2 weeks! However, we're still exploring what they like in D&D, from puzzles, to roleplay, to combat, to exploration and all that is possible in the game. I too suck at puzzles as a player, but as a DM I have to be able to give them a few from time to time and see if they like them or not.
In case of the ring - which I described to some detail at the time during play, I also described during the role play how excited the jeweler was, seeing that it was a valuable item (though no idea it was magical) and offered them 100gp without question, highlighting his eagerness. After the Rogue agreed to sell (without haggling or consulting the other characters who were somewhere else at the time), I told the player directly that he has sold a ring (in truth, it was even' a powerful ring, as they were still at level 1 - it was just a Ring of Feather Falling, though I never told them that, haha!). He then asked me as a player if he could buy it back, and that's where I said that he couldn't, because his character had no clue that it was magical - the other players chipped in at this time that they didn't want to play "meta" and what was done, was done!
As another example of my players not really eager to investigate items, a Dragonborn paladin had found a peculiar magnifying glass in some ruins, kept protected in a tattered bag. The item would allow them to identify items, as the group had no character who can actually do this (!) so I needed to give them a way of doing so, hence created the magic item. However, the player was more interested in the tattered bag itself and cast Mend. Seeing his interest, I told him the bag had a symbol of his order but slightly different, hinting that it could have been made by a heretical off shoot of his own order, tying up to a side plot of his. As for the magnifying glass, he didn't use it. I reminded him via PM a couple of times that he should perhaps "use it in the next session" but no luck, until 5 sessions later I basically forced him to use it in a manner of speaking. However, a session letter that character left the group (not the player though) after a PvP scenario, taking the magical magnifying glass with him!!!
As for them braking the Painting Puzzle, following the feed back here on the forum, I think I'll have the characters find loot but have it broken (just as I am writing this they are fighting a couple of monsters where the puzzle is). That way they could try and repair the magic items if they can come up with a way!
Once again, thanks to all the folks and their points, very greatly appreciated :D
I will say my group has been playing once every two weeks (we work a week than have a week off so the game time fits into our life) even prior to me getting here. The ups and downs of attempting to transition from what it was to 5e and a whole bunch of other things in between. That being said though, the feedback I'm currently getting (I'm currently in the hot suit until CoS is over, which their getting there) is sometimes to help them remember what's going on (I do give a recap at the beginning of each session), one person took keen mind on purpose (and yes he is still taking notes even though he has it) and even with him knowing that I only prompt him when the knowledge his character knows comes into play.
The point I'm trying to make if that's the type of time in between plays you might want to have a talk with players and just having a check in (I mean they also might not have been aware that they can know an item is magical by touching it) with how your players are feeling, if they want more help without being overtly helpful (after all knowing that the magical ring was magical wasn't meta even though your players thought it was) and just trying to find a better way to help the players, especially due to the fact that they are new.
In case of the ring - which I described to some detail at the time during play, I also described during the role play how excited the jeweler was, seeing that it was a valuable item (though no idea it was magical) and offered them 100gp without question, highlighting his eagerness. After the Rogue agreed to sell (without haggling or consulting the other characters who were somewhere else at the time), I told the player directly that he has sold a ring (in truth, it was even' a powerful ring, as they were still at level 1 - it was just a Ring of Feather Falling, though I never told them that, haha!). He then asked me as a player if he could buy it back, and that's where I said that he couldn't, because his character had no clue that it was magical - the other players chipped in at this time that they didn't want to play "meta" and what was done, was done!
So that was exactly what I interpreted it to be. Thanks for clarifying that to the others who didn't get it. That merchant is going to make a huge profit reselling that ring. According to the DMG, rare magic items such as this one are worth 501–5,000 gp. If you apply the rule on cutting the price in half when players are selling items, that gullible Rogue could have made anywhere between 250.5 and 2500 gp.
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Age: 33 | Sex: Male | Languages: French and English | Roles: DM and Player
In case of the ring - which I described to some detail at the time during play, I also described during the role play how excited the jeweler was, seeing that it was a valuable item (though no idea it was magical) and offered them 100gp without question, highlighting his eagerness. After the Rogue agreed to sell (without haggling or consulting the other characters who were somewhere else at the time), I told the player directly that he has sold a ring (in truth, it was even' a powerful ring, as they were still at level 1 - it was just a Ring of Feather Falling, though I never told them that, haha!). He then asked me as a player if he could buy it back, and that's where I said that he couldn't, because his character had no clue that it was magical - the other players chipped in at this time that they didn't want to play "meta" and what was done, was done!
So that was exactly what I interpreted it to be. Thanks for clarifying that to the others who didn't get it. That merchant is going to make a huge profit reselling that ring. According to the DMG, rare magic items such as this one are worth 501–5,000 gp. If you apply the rule on cutting the price in half when players are selling items, that gullible Rogue could have made anywhere between 250.5 and 2500 gp.
Again as previously stated "by some of the folks who don't get it", the Basic Rules (which should be included since you're citing the DMG) says that the Rogue should have known the ring was magic by touching it, which he would have in order to take it somewhere to sell. Than the new players double downed on the OP's ruling of not "wanting to be Meta" because they are new players and aren't aware that it in fact would not be a meta thing to know the ring was magical.
Things aren't quite as cut and dry as you would like some folks to read the situation. It's true that the OP has said enough to prove he means no ill intent but unless he's actually going to teach the new players the rules (or have a session 0 to say what rules he's going to disallow) than he shouldn't be making posts asking if he's being too harsh when they players aren't being helped in a way that, by the rules, they should at least know some things.
I think this (the most recent post or two) are examples of 5e oversimplifying things again relative to how they should be / might be houseruled to be IMHO.
Players should NOT necessarily automatically be able to tell just by looking or touching an item that it is magical; particularly in the kind of low magic campaign the OP describes where they might not even be familiar with what magic actually feels like. Rather, players should be encouraged to liberally use the detect magic spell on their loot piles / in dungeon rooms, etc, even via scroll, wand, wondrous item such as goggle of true seeing or what not, so that it cost a small effort or price to recognize an item as magical. Otherwise, any commoner could tell if they'd found a magic item. You should already need to be familiar with magic; a rare thing, in some capacity in order to recognize magic in something else.
I think this (the most recent post or two) are examples of 5e oversimplifying things again relative to how they should be / might be houseruled to be IMHO.
Players should NOT necessarily automatically be able to tell just by looking or touching an item that it is magical; particularly in the kind of low magic campaign the OP describes where they might not even be familiar with what magic actually feels like. Rather, players should be encouraged to liberally use the detect magic spell on their loot piles / in dungeon rooms, etc, even via scroll, want, wondrous item such as goggle of true seeing or what not, so that it cost a small effort or price to recognize an item as magical. Otherwise, any commoner could tell if they'd found a magic item. You should already need to be familiar with magic; a rare thing, in some capacity in order to recognize magic in something else.
Okay but let's say it's a low magic campaign and that he house ruled the fact that (although the OP just states he wasn't aware of the rule in the first place, which again is fine but it wasn't a purposeful intent designed by the OP as you're suggesting) you don't know magic items by touching, this, assuming everyone is playing by 5e in the first place (which I generally assume unless stated somewhere sooner) still should be covered in a session 0 so the players know what rules are being adjusted (which again OP wasn't aware of so wasn't covered and again I only bring this up because he did say the players were new).
The OP has also stated in later post that the group doesn't have the capabilities of identifying magic by themselves anyways (he at one point homebrewed a magic item to let them do this, a player who has since left the table took it with him when he left. The player also didn't know what it did when he left either). Without allowing arcana checks or strongly hinting maybe this would be a good thing to do, etc.. well how can new players learn... especially when the group that the team is playing doesn't have the capabilities in the first place.
The main problem I see is the title that was used and than even to a degree how the first post comes off... The initial post can be interrupted as being too harsh (I've gone back and forth really my self) and even after more information has been given all it points out is the OP isn't doing anything maliciously. However, considering the players are new and aren't entirely being helped and most of the postings kind of blame the players when I'd really argue there is blame enough to go around.
I mean almost anyone can be a dense player or a dense DM... My DM at one point tried to make it out like we couldn't solve simple puzzles (the magic door was magically locked but the lock could have been unlocked with the knock spell) and than I had to point out that due to how the campaign had been going he knew all the spells I had access to a knock was not one of them (which I kept making fun of myself due to the fact at this point I was mad before he mentioned it because I never took the spell so I couldn't have even attempted it) therefore couldn't solve the puzzle because it was outside the character's capabilities themselves... it happens... most times things can be solved by getting everyone on the same page.
Players should NOT necessarily automatically be able to tell just by looking or touching an item that it is magical; particularly in the kind of low magic campaign the OP describes where they might not even be familiar with what magic actually feels like. Rather, players should be encouraged to liberally use the detect magic spell on their loot piles / in dungeon rooms, etc, even via scroll, wand, wondrous item such as goggle of true seeing or what not, so that it cost a small effort or price to recognize an item as magical.
In a low magic campaign like the one you're talking about, the players will use Detect Magic for the first few sessions, and when it turns up nothing they will eventually give up. Players will rarely use something liberally if it feels ineffectual 95% of the time.
I get that DMs want players to be engaged, but as a player I also don't always want to play a game where every single thing is some kind of hidden puzzle test. I would literally rather just keep going without magic items than have to meticulously search through every single room in a dungeon. It's tedious and downright boring, and it's not the way I want to spend the few hours I have to play D&D. It also kills all pacing and just paints a really boring picture of the adventure when 95% of it is fruitless searching with an occasional battle or found item.
Greenstone's skeleton is a great example. A wand in the ribcage should be entirely visible and obvious. If you see the skeleton, you see the wand - or at least you see that something seems to be inside it. If I was told that I saw a skeleton, I would never think of saying, "I search its ribcage." It's like seeing a window and having to say "I search the window" to be able to see through it.
Obviously I might be a bit too harsh with the players and might need to lead them by the nose a little bit more :D
This has nothing to do with having to "ead them by the nose a little bit more" and everything to do with the fact that you shouldn't punish your players for your mistakes. And you especially shouldn't condescend to them by claming things like "The players in my current campaign must be allergic to magic items." How are they supposed to know that the items are magic if you don't tell them? Especially in a world where very few magic items exists?
I didn't mention it in the original post, but the world they they play in is currently devoid of magic users (except for clerics and the like, magic is in the process of returning, though the players have access to their full powers regardless of class, making them pretty powerful in the scheme of things as other citizens have no powers whatsoever, except for a few rare individuals at this stage and clerics/paladins of the world. Magic items still exist from the times before and maintain their magic, though a rare ).
So again, how are the players supposed to know what items are magic? Especially since the NPCs seems to have the ability to tell that items are magic just by touching them
I didn't realise about the D&D rule that one knows that something is magic during the touch, I'll keep that in mind going forward :)
Yes, it's usually a good idea to know the rules if you are going to GM.
The players have not gotten upset thankfully, we all said it was they were lessons to be learnt to check items a bit more carefully, though that has yet to happen despite my reminders over the course of a year's campaign worth!
You're lucky to have such forgiving players. You should tell them this.
With all the items in question, they were not items I wanted to give to players but instead were optional rewards, so I personally didn't mind either way but would reward the canny player (but obviously, my methods have been flawed!).
So why not present a way to give them the items that actually makes sense both for the players and their characters instead of having them jump through hoops? You do realize that D&D is supposed to be a cooperative game and not a fight between GM and the players?
Just to add, that despite the way I might have come across the OG post as me being so prideful telling them that they missed out, I don't do any laughing in their face or insulting them.
Well, you did insult them in the very first sentence of your very first post when you implied that they are allergic to magic items just because they didn't recognize your flawed style of GM-ing.
I once had a paladin in one of my games who I had some trouble giving a magic item to.
The party were arrested, mostly under false pretenses, and lead a jail break when everyone in the prison was going to be executed. At the end, they defeated the conquest paladin themed boss had come to put down the escape, and the party got her magic sword as loot. I assumed the paladin would take it.
Instead, the paladin in my party took the boss away to nurse back to health and returned the sword, hoping to redeem said boss. Which was an unexpected, but ultimately interesting move.
Later on, they found an old holy shrine while exploring, but there was a locked gate in the way. I had intended it to be a shrine dedicated to the paladin's god, and have it bless her regular sword when she went and prayed to it. Unfortunately to my surprise, nobody in the party put in any effort to get past the gate and they just moved on.
I once had a paladin in one of my games who I had some trouble giving a magic item to.
The party were arrested, mostly under false pretenses, and lead a jail break when everyone in the prison was going to be executed. At the end, they defeated the conquest paladin themed boss had come to put down the escape, and the party got her magic sword as loot. I assumed the paladin would take it.
Instead, the paladin in my party took the boss away to nurse back to health and returned the sword, hoping to redeem said boss. Which was an unexpected, but ultimately interesting move.
Later on, they found an old holy shrine while exploring, but there was a locked gate in the way. I had intended it to be a shrine dedicated to the paladin's god, and have it bless her regular sword when she went and prayed to it. Unfortunately to my surprise, nobody in the party put in any effort to get past the gate and they just moved on.
Sounds like the paladin was a really good roleplayer. Why was the gate locked if you wanted the PC to go through?
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I'm a bit confused about the title of this thread, which mentions Magic Weapons specifically, but none of the examples listed were weapons. I was expecting this to be one of those times where the players refuse the magic weapons they find because they don't want to use those particular weapons (like if they found a magic axe, but the martial fighters in the party all prefer swords).
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I feel your pain. The players in my current group are a bit, shall we say,... Dense as dwarven bread? And uncurious. And uncaring, but thats a rant for another day.
Killed a nothic, its body falls in a shallow ravine (where its treasure is). OK, move on, next room.
Find a room with a group of bugbears excavating a pile of gravel (treasure buried there). OK, kill the bugbears, move on, next room.
Find a magic candle. OK, stick it in the bag of holding, forget about it until the GM reminds them they have unidentified magic items (more than one player responded to this with "no we don't" sheesh).
Find a pool of water with a skeleton on the bottom (it had a wand entangled in its rib bones). OK, move on, next room.
Find a fountain with a rope tied to a rock going into the water (sack of treasure on the end of the rope). OK, move on, next room.
And so on.
Am I mean as a GM? I give hints but if the players aren't picking up on them then they lose the treasure. There are rewards for paying attention.
I also have magic weapons being used by bad guys. Want the weapon? Kill the bad guy and loot their corpse. Oh, you ran away? I guess you don't get the item.
I think the main difference though, between what your posting and what the OP originally posted, is are you reminding your players when they move on to the next room that they missed stuff or could have found things?
In your case, your players aren't being thorough or following the clues you give and even arguing they didn't pick up magic things (although I suppose their could be a question on how they were supposed to know the one candle was magical...but that's not really the point). In the OP's case he specifically tells them after the fact and than doesn't let them try to go back or rectify the situation (they went back for one thing and it was gone, they weren't even allowed to steal the one ring back)... some of the thing's the OP mentioned would be slightly okay if he wasn't constantly (and that's the way it seems based off what was written) telling them they missed things or they could have had that and so forth... so basically is players are missing things and being chided for missing them. In your case it seems like your players are missing things and than saying that they aren't... a little bit of a different situation, at least to me.
I look at it like the DM was trying to teach the new players not punish them.
If the DN did it for the next 10 sessions then yes its more then likely a problem point but if it was only done until the players either learned or the DM was satisfied that they just would not even look for the goods after learning then everything is fine.
They could just hack and slash players to the core.
I mean we don't know if these players are new or if they are experienced (although based off the stories I'd argue they are closer towards newer than experienced and even than depending on how many tables they played at doesn't even mean you have experience for all issues and what not). So I'm just going to compare things as if these were new players.
Scenario One: "Later they returned to the quest giver who asked if they came across a bag, which helped the quest keeper haul a LOT of ore back, and one of the player realised it was a bag of holding. They returned to the mine a few days later and by then it was gone."
So in scenario one (and given how the OP was being detailed he probably mentioned it after the fact like he stated prior to giving clues or such strong hints at the start of the quest) the only way the players should have know to go after the bag is that the "Neogi" was interested in it.. I mean there could have been lots of interesting things in it (and even based off that description alone I wouldn't have thought it was a bag of holding, would have checked if it was magical but we don't know the parties make up and if they even have a set up for that) and at that point it sounded like they were trying to make sure the dwarves got home safely (again we don't even know the perimeter of the quest). If the DM was trying to teach the players, as was suggested, when they went back he could have set up a decent investigation check for the ability to be able to find said bag again.. but nope just gone.
Scenario Two: "You realize this was a magic ring?", to which the character then asked if can he buy or steal it back. I said, "no, I'm just telling you so you know for next time. There is absolutely no way to get this ring back!"
So at this point we know a Rogue is in the party (although not one type) and again the OP randomly tells the player they realize it is magic after the fact. Than the player expresses interest in trying to get it back, which again OP could have set a decent to moderate (perhaps even high) DC to let them try (and maybe if they got a decent number failed to get the main objective could have walked away with something else that they could have learned to identify or tried too) but nope everything kabashed and like "Nope". Now again, RAW the rules state you can feel magic items by touching them... and even if you weren't playing strict RAW there are other things you can do to set up your players to try to learn versus chiding them... which isn't what happened in this situation.
I hate puzzles I myself would probably have not bothered because I'm bad at them (we have little puzzle play in our games because we are in fact bad as a group at them, even though we have out of the box thinking... one of the puzzles the DM recently set up wasn't doable because he didn't know what are players had. Based off that I'm not going to comment on that event.... and the fourth one there is no resolution so why bother trying to comment on that one.
Also, the OP did ask if he was being too harsh, which is why some of the posters felt the need to point flaws in the view point that was presented. I don't think the OP is purposely trying to do their players wrong, I do however think they are being too harsh on their players. If they are trying to teach them to do these things and think of such actions their are ways to do so instead of "nope you missed it this time, remember next time".
Concerning the magic ring, I believe the OP was telling their players out of game that they screwed up as a way to teach them a lesson. Since it's the players who know that the ring is magical and not the characters, they can't possibly metagame their way out of it. Such a lesson can be useful to teach players to be more careful in the future.
Age: 33 | Sex: Male | Languages: French and English | Roles: DM and Player
@TransmorpherDDS Aha, whoops, yes. You are right, my mistake, I should have titled Magic Items, not Weapons!!!!
@TheGnome5786 - you are correct, I was hoping that it came across as a lesson for the guys to check their stuff, but admittedly I could have done a better job.
@Justen_Wildwing - you surmised correctly, they are new players, though now it's been a year of playing nearly every 2 weeks! However, we're still exploring what they like in D&D, from puzzles, to roleplay, to combat, to exploration and all that is possible in the game.
I too suck at puzzles as a player, but as a DM I have to be able to give them a few from time to time and see if they like them or not.
In case of the ring - which I described to some detail at the time during play, I also described during the role play how excited the jeweler was, seeing that it was a valuable item (though no idea it was magical) and offered them 100gp without question, highlighting his eagerness.
After the Rogue agreed to sell (without haggling or consulting the other characters who were somewhere else at the time), I told the player directly that he has sold a ring (in truth, it was even' a powerful ring, as they were still at level 1 - it was just a Ring of Feather Falling, though I never told them that, haha!). He then asked me as a player if he could buy it back, and that's where I said that he couldn't, because his character had no clue that it was magical - the other players chipped in at this time that they didn't want to play "meta" and what was done, was done!
As another example of my players not really eager to investigate items, a Dragonborn paladin had found a peculiar magnifying glass in some ruins, kept protected in a tattered bag.
The item would allow them to identify items, as the group had no character who can actually do this (!) so I needed to give them a way of doing so, hence created the magic item. However, the player was more interested in the tattered bag itself and cast Mend. Seeing his interest, I told him the bag had a symbol of his order but slightly different, hinting that it could have been made by a heretical off shoot of his own order, tying up to a side plot of his.
As for the magnifying glass, he didn't use it. I reminded him via PM a couple of times that he should perhaps "use it in the next session" but no luck, until 5 sessions later I basically forced him to use it in a manner of speaking. However, a session letter that character left the group (not the player though) after a PvP scenario, taking the magical magnifying glass with him!!!
As for them braking the Painting Puzzle, following the feed back here on the forum, I think I'll have the characters find loot but have it broken (just as I am writing this they are fighting a couple of monsters where the puzzle is). That way they could try and repair the magic items if they can come up with a way!
Once again, thanks to all the folks and their points, very greatly appreciated :D
I will say my group has been playing once every two weeks (we work a week than have a week off so the game time fits into our life) even prior to me getting here. The ups and downs of attempting to transition from what it was to 5e and a whole bunch of other things in between. That being said though, the feedback I'm currently getting (I'm currently in the hot suit until CoS is over, which their getting there) is sometimes to help them remember what's going on (I do give a recap at the beginning of each session), one person took keen mind on purpose (and yes he is still taking notes even though he has it) and even with him knowing that I only prompt him when the knowledge his character knows comes into play.
The point I'm trying to make if that's the type of time in between plays you might want to have a talk with players and just having a check in (I mean they also might not have been aware that they can know an item is magical by touching it) with how your players are feeling, if they want more help without being overtly helpful (after all knowing that the magical ring was magical wasn't meta even though your players thought it was) and just trying to find a better way to help the players, especially due to the fact that they are new.
So that was exactly what I interpreted it to be. Thanks for clarifying that to the others who didn't get it. That merchant is going to make a huge profit reselling that ring. According to the DMG, rare magic items such as this one are worth 501–5,000 gp. If you apply the rule on cutting the price in half when players are selling items, that gullible Rogue could have made anywhere between 250.5 and 2500 gp.
Age: 33 | Sex: Male | Languages: French and English | Roles: DM and Player
Again as previously stated "by some of the folks who don't get it", the Basic Rules (which should be included since you're citing the DMG) says that the Rogue should have known the ring was magic by touching it, which he would have in order to take it somewhere to sell. Than the new players double downed on the OP's ruling of not "wanting to be Meta" because they are new players and aren't aware that it in fact would not be a meta thing to know the ring was magical.
Things aren't quite as cut and dry as you would like some folks to read the situation. It's true that the OP has said enough to prove he means no ill intent but unless he's actually going to teach the new players the rules (or have a session 0 to say what rules he's going to disallow) than he shouldn't be making posts asking if he's being too harsh when they players aren't being helped in a way that, by the rules, they should at least know some things.
I think this (the most recent post or two) are examples of 5e oversimplifying things again relative to how they should be / might be houseruled to be IMHO.
Players should NOT necessarily automatically be able to tell just by looking or touching an item that it is magical; particularly in the kind of low magic campaign the OP describes where they might not even be familiar with what magic actually feels like. Rather, players should be encouraged to liberally use the detect magic spell on their loot piles / in dungeon rooms, etc, even via scroll, wand, wondrous item such as goggle of true seeing or what not, so that it cost a small effort or price to recognize an item as magical. Otherwise, any commoner could tell if they'd found a magic item. You should already need to be familiar with magic; a rare thing, in some capacity in order to recognize magic in something else.
Thank you for your time and please have a very pleasant day.
Okay but let's say it's a low magic campaign and that he house ruled the fact that (although the OP just states he wasn't aware of the rule in the first place, which again is fine but it wasn't a purposeful intent designed by the OP as you're suggesting) you don't know magic items by touching, this, assuming everyone is playing by 5e in the first place (which I generally assume unless stated somewhere sooner) still should be covered in a session 0 so the players know what rules are being adjusted (which again OP wasn't aware of so wasn't covered and again I only bring this up because he did say the players were new).
The OP has also stated in later post that the group doesn't have the capabilities of identifying magic by themselves anyways (he at one point homebrewed a magic item to let them do this, a player who has since left the table took it with him when he left. The player also didn't know what it did when he left either). Without allowing arcana checks or strongly hinting maybe this would be a good thing to do, etc.. well how can new players learn... especially when the group that the team is playing doesn't have the capabilities in the first place.
The main problem I see is the title that was used and than even to a degree how the first post comes off... The initial post can be interrupted as being too harsh (I've gone back and forth really my self) and even after more information has been given all it points out is the OP isn't doing anything maliciously. However, considering the players are new and aren't entirely being helped and most of the postings kind of blame the players when I'd really argue there is blame enough to go around.
I mean almost anyone can be a dense player or a dense DM... My DM at one point tried to make it out like we couldn't solve simple puzzles (the magic door was magically locked but the lock could have been unlocked with the knock spell) and than I had to point out that due to how the campaign had been going he knew all the spells I had access to a knock was not one of them (which I kept making fun of myself due to the fact at this point I was mad before he mentioned it because I never took the spell so I couldn't have even attempted it) therefore couldn't solve the puzzle because it was outside the character's capabilities themselves... it happens... most times things can be solved by getting everyone on the same page.
In a low magic campaign like the one you're talking about, the players will use Detect Magic for the first few sessions, and when it turns up nothing they will eventually give up. Players will rarely use something liberally if it feels ineffectual 95% of the time.
I get that DMs want players to be engaged, but as a player I also don't always want to play a game where every single thing is some kind of hidden puzzle test. I would literally rather just keep going without magic items than have to meticulously search through every single room in a dungeon. It's tedious and downright boring, and it's not the way I want to spend the few hours I have to play D&D. It also kills all pacing and just paints a really boring picture of the adventure when 95% of it is fruitless searching with an occasional battle or found item.
Greenstone's skeleton is a great example. A wand in the ribcage should be entirely visible and obvious. If you see the skeleton, you see the wand - or at least you see that something seems to be inside it. If I was told that I saw a skeleton, I would never think of saying, "I search its ribcage." It's like seeing a window and having to say "I search the window" to be able to see through it.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
This has nothing to do with having to "ead them by the nose a little bit more" and everything to do with the fact that you shouldn't punish your players for your mistakes. And you especially shouldn't condescend to them by claming things like "The players in my current campaign must be allergic to magic items." How are they supposed to know that the items are magic if you don't tell them? Especially in a world where very few magic items exists?
So again, how are the players supposed to know what items are magic? Especially since the NPCs seems to have the ability to tell that items are magic just by touching them
Yes, it's usually a good idea to know the rules if you are going to GM.
You're lucky to have such forgiving players. You should tell them this.
So why not present a way to give them the items that actually makes sense both for the players and their characters instead of having them jump through hoops? You do realize that D&D is supposed to be a cooperative game and not a fight between GM and the players?
Well, you did insult them in the very first sentence of your very first post when you implied that they are allergic to magic items just because they didn't recognize your flawed style of GM-ing.
I once had a paladin in one of my games who I had some trouble giving a magic item to.
The party were arrested, mostly under false pretenses, and lead a jail break when everyone in the prison was going to be executed. At the end, they defeated the conquest paladin themed boss had come to put down the escape, and the party got her magic sword as loot. I assumed the paladin would take it.
Instead, the paladin in my party took the boss away to nurse back to health and returned the sword, hoping to redeem said boss. Which was an unexpected, but ultimately interesting move.
Later on, they found an old holy shrine while exploring, but there was a locked gate in the way. I had intended it to be a shrine dedicated to the paladin's god, and have it bless her regular sword when she went and prayed to it. Unfortunately to my surprise, nobody in the party put in any effort to get past the gate and they just moved on.
Was there anything indicating to the players that they should try to get through the locked gate?
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Sounds like the paladin was a really good roleplayer. Why was the gate locked if you wanted the PC to go through?