Like others have said that's a complex question. I think spellcasters in an "endgame" scenario are the most powerful, but put a wizard in a tiny room with a barbarian and see who walks out.
For that matter put a barbarian in a room with a moon Druid and see who walks out
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”If it is stronger, you must endure and tank its damage. If it is quicker, you must outsmart it. If it is tankier, you must outnumber it. If it is smarter, well then you’re screwed. Feng Draco, Erythnuld hand.
Like others have said that's a complex question. I think spellcasters in an "endgame" scenario are the most powerful, but put a wizard in a tiny room with a barbarian and see who walks out.
If you're talking 17 and up all a Wizard has to do is put Invulnerability on themselves and that's it. They win hands down.
i can make a bard fit any role i so wish, and can build them to fit any niché
if it was a competition between a party of only high level bards versus a party of high level wizards, well the bards can pull some pretty weird shit, no knowing if one of them will cast planar ally, or if one of them valor bards rolls up using find steed and a lance, or if one of them is an valor bard shooting arrows from afar with swift quiver active, if one of them has cast infernal calling + glibness and used their persuasive talents to convince a devil to join them, no knowing if the lore bard will combine cutting words with bane to completely disable everybodys saves, no knowing if the whisper bard is going to use banishing smite + that psychic damage thing against an paralyzed opponent to deal some massive damage, no knowing if the swords bard will pick up shillelagh to use an club with their two weapon fighting, no knowing when one of them drops an devestating feeblemind or plant growth, no knowing if one of them knows awaken and has an small army of loyal sentient bears on their side, no knowing if that party of bards is really a party of bards or just an really elaborate illusion, no knowing if the ground you stand on is an illusion, no knowing if one of them has cast hallow to make everyone in an area vunerable to a certain damage type, no knowing how much they have found out about you with their divination spells, no knowing if any of the townsfolk is one of them, no knowing if one of the townsfolk is a slave to their geas spell, forced to act against their will, no knowing if one of them packed an true polymorph, and is ready to ether turn you into a table immediately or turn an nearby object into an CR 9creature, no knowing if they have a secret familliar, no knowing if they have an plant growth planned, no knowing if any plant you have ever seen is an secret agent to their cause, no knowing who their glib tounges have persuaded to join them not even using magic just their persuasion skill, no knowing if they are going to use their vast monetary assets on an planar binding spell or on purchasing a load of mercinaries or in buying a fort, no knowing if one of them has an jack of all trades empowered counterspell, there is simply no knowing what an bard will throw at you, the peak of unpredictabillity.
no of course, a single bard can only do a few of those things at once and of course this is not an competition of teams of players, but this is what i think about bards, but many of the spells i mentioned above are already on the bard spell list, and magical secrets can get you many more, an well crafted party of bards can defeat any opponent as specialists, and a single bard is always a good jack-of-all-trades, that is why bards can be one of the most powerful classes in the game, there is no knowing if they are going to cast wish or planar ally or some other spell, if you dont know in advance what you are dealing with you can be knee deep in trouble real fast
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i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
counterpoint: bard with prep period, shure they dont have nearly the same versatillity and can only switch out spells if you use an optional rule in an unearthed arcana article, but i give you this:
lets say we have an theoretical 20th level bard who is challenged to an mage's duel by an local level 20 wizard. Both parties will meet at an predetermined location at an predetermined time, and they have two weeks to prepare. The theoretical bard has the following spells: greater invisibillity, awaken, counterspell, dispell magic, glibness, locate creature, hallucinatory terrain. most of these are relatively common bard spells, counterspell would have to be gotten by some kind of alternative means
in the weeks before the duel, he seeks out several bears, and casts awaken on them, and before the fight he hides them in the area. before the fight he also casts glibness on himself. as the fight starts, the bears spring out from their hiding places and the bard casts greater invisibillity on himself. Assuming he can sucessfully get the spell cast without the wizard counterspells, and assuming he can in a single turn make the wizard be completely surrounded by bears, he has essentially won and here is how:
as soon as the wizard casts any spell, the bard can respond by casting counterspell. since the bard is under the effect of glibness, he is able to always suceed on any dispel check, and since the bard is invisible, the wizard is unable to use counterspell on the counterspell since counterspell only works on visible targets, and so for as long as the bard has spell slots and the wizard casts only one 1st level spell per action, it can be assumed that the wizard will be unable to cast any spell that can help him fight these bears, or that even if the wizard can do something, the bard can simply cast dispel magic as nessesary. That leaves an most likely unarmed wizard to fight several bears without the help of his spells, something most wizards are likely unable to do
like yeah this combo assumes a lot of things, including that a wizard will be defeated by several bears before you run out of spell slots, that you get that initial greater invisibillity of, that the wizard did not have see invisibillity or true seeing active and it assumes you are able to hide several bears without it being noticed by an wizard, and that the wizard has no minions that can save him or her, my point is most classes are more powerful if they have time to prepare, and that wizards are probably not as invincible as you think (especially if they are put in an anti magic field and forced to fistfight seven bears at once)
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i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
Clerics may have their gods, and the Paladin's their Smites. But the bard is the true OP class. They may not be damage sponges, but in terms of social strength, versatile subclasses, and primary class abilities (bardic inspiration, jack of all trade, song of rest); the bard is the most dangerous thing in a campaign.
I will admit with my musical background, I'm a bit more bias to this class. But it should go without saying, never screw with the bard.
If you folks are looking at 20th level then I'd argue the cleric's 100% chance to call on divine intervention might be the way to go. It's a "DM may I?" ability in that the aid is under the discretion of the DM but it's potentially one of the most powerful abilities in the game under the premise the deity is intervening to save the character in that character's time of need.
Sorcerers can bend wish to their will with metamagic so wizards can suck it. :-P
I have the problem that whatever class i play one of the other players in the group thinks im op, and constantly makes comments about how its unfair how powerful i am. Im think of showing her this. Im currently playing a cleric.
I think this kinda depends on how you define 'power'? Action economy? Damage per turn? Utility?
Then again, in my experience, how a class/character is played has a lot of sway in how 'dangerous' that character is. Similarly, just because a class has the potential to be very useful/impressive, that build might not be able to flex all of it's awesomeness for some campaigns. I generally think that all of the classes are pretty well balanced and what makes the difference is mostly the situation and player controlling things.
I think this kinda depends on how you define 'power'? Action economy? Damage per turn? Utility?
Then again, in my experience, how a class/character is played has a lot of sway in how 'dangerous' that character is. Similarly, just because a class has the potential to be very useful/impressive, that build might not be able to flex all of it's awesomeness for some campaigns. I generally think that all of the classes are pretty well balanced and what makes the difference is mostly the situation and player controlling things.
yeah, 5e in general is pretty balanced, this is mostly an battle of "who is marinally the best?" or "who will dish out the most damage and have the best staying power?"
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i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
I think this kinda depends on how you define 'power'? Action economy? Damage per turn? Utility?
Then again, in my experience, how a class/character is played has a lot of sway in how 'dangerous' that character is. Similarly, just because a class has the potential to be very useful/impressive, that build might not be able to flex all of it's awesomeness for some campaigns. I generally think that all of the classes are pretty well balanced and what makes the difference is mostly the situation and player controlling things.
yeah, 5e in general is pretty balanced, this is mostly an battle of "who is marinally the best?" or "who will dish out the most damage and have the best staying power?"
Except for the ranger, because everyone bullies the heck out of it
I think this kinda depends on how you define 'power'? Action economy? Damage per turn? Utility?
Then again, in my experience, how a class/character is played has a lot of sway in how 'dangerous' that character is. Similarly, just because a class has the potential to be very useful/impressive, that build might not be able to flex all of it's awesomeness for some campaigns. I generally think that all of the classes are pretty well balanced and what makes the difference is mostly the situation and player controlling things.
yeah, 5e in general is pretty balanced, this is mostly an battle of "who is marinally the best?" or "who will dish out the most damage and have the best staying power?"
Except for the ranger, because everyone bullies the heck out of it
i mean the ranger is still pretty powerful, the beast master may seem weak but oh god you can add your proficiency bonus to everything meaning that if you choose an sufficiently strong beast it might be able to deal more damage than you per attack or have the strongest AC, most of the features at 11th level are just more situational versions of the 11th level fighter extra attack features, they have hunters mark spell is way better than it has any right to be, and they can both keep up with the fighter in damage while also having acess to a few good spells for some versatility in and out of combat, the third level features of all the subclasses almost always grant more damage out right and all of them are mostly pretty good, especially the 3rd level features for the hunter subclass, the biggest problems with the class really is just that favored enemy and favored terrain are kinda useless, something that will soon be fixed when that classvariants ua finally comes out in official material and once the animal companion actiually gets some decent gosh darn hit points for once instead of 4 per level
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i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
I think this kinda depends on how you define 'power'? Action economy? Damage per turn? Utility?
Then again, in my experience, how a class/character is played has a lot of sway in how 'dangerous' that character is. Similarly, just because a class has the potential to be very useful/impressive, that build might not be able to flex all of it's awesomeness for some campaigns. I generally think that all of the classes are pretty well balanced and what makes the difference is mostly the situation and player controlling things.
yeah, 5e in general is pretty balanced, this is mostly an battle of "who is marinally the best?" or "who will dish out the most damage and have the best staying power?"
Except for the ranger, because everyone bullies the heck out of it
i mean the ranger is still pretty powerful, the beast master may seem weak but oh god you can add your proficiency bonus to everything meaning that if you choose an sufficiently strong beast it might be able to deal more damage than you per attack or have the strongest AC, most of the features at 11th level are just more situational versions of the 11th level fighter extra attack features, they have hunters mark spell is way better than it has any right to be, and they can both keep up with the fighter in damage while also having acess to a few good spells for some versatility in and out of combat, the third level features of all the subclasses almost always grant more damage out right and all of them are mostly pretty good, especially the 3rd level features for the hunter subclass, the biggest problems with the class really is just that favored enemy and favored terrain are kinda useless, something that will soon be fixed when that classvariants ua finally comes out in official material and once the animal companion actiually gets some decent gosh darn hit points for once instead of 4 per level
Yeah. But right now it's relegated to "that hybrid class that no one ever ever picks, because it's too situational.
If we are talking overall, I am assuming we mean as a level 20 character.
In this specific case, I would have to vote rogue, They may not do the most damage in combat or be the best suited social encounters, I would say a Paladin is best combat wise and a bard best is social encounters. However the rogue has the ability to be universally good in both situations. A optimized rogue would be nearly impossible to find and hit in combat and their wide range of proficient skills coupled with expertise and reliable talent make it nearly impossible for them to fail at any normal skill check.
You could even make them even more well rounded by leveling them to 18 as a rogue and either doing two levels bard or two levels paladin.
Clerics can be really OP if built right, but good berry can easily make healing a tad bit irrelevant. happening in my campaign and the cleric isn’t happy with the ranger. No need for healing anymore with good berries.
I agree it is rather confusing why the class with the lowest hit die, and would be crushed if it didn’t have a barbarian to cower behind is the top of the polls.
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For that matter put a barbarian in a room with a moon Druid and see who walks out
”If it is stronger, you must endure and tank its damage. If it is quicker, you must outsmart it. If it is tankier, you must outnumber it. If it is smarter, well then you’re screwed. Feng Draco, Erythnuld hand.
If you're talking 17 and up all a Wizard has to do is put Invulnerability on themselves and that's it. They win hands down.
Mega Yahtzee Thread:
Highest 41: brocker2001 (#11,285).
Yahtzee of 2's: Emmber (#36,161).
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Moon Druid at level 20 beats anything in melee.
Wizard with prep beats anything period.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
i can make a bard fit any role i so wish, and can build them to fit any niché
if it was a competition between a party of only high level bards versus a party of high level wizards, well the bards can pull some pretty weird shit, no knowing if one of them will cast planar ally, or if one of them valor bards rolls up using find steed and a lance, or if one of them is an valor bard shooting arrows from afar with swift quiver active, if one of them has cast infernal calling + glibness and used their persuasive talents to convince a devil to join them, no knowing if the lore bard will combine cutting words with bane to completely disable everybodys saves, no knowing if the whisper bard is going to use banishing smite + that psychic damage thing against an paralyzed opponent to deal some massive damage, no knowing if the swords bard will pick up shillelagh to use an club with their two weapon fighting, no knowing when one of them drops an devestating feeblemind or plant growth, no knowing if one of them knows awaken and has an small army of loyal sentient bears on their side, no knowing if that party of bards is really a party of bards or just an really elaborate illusion, no knowing if the ground you stand on is an illusion, no knowing if one of them has cast hallow to make everyone in an area vunerable to a certain damage type, no knowing how much they have found out about you with their divination spells, no knowing if any of the townsfolk is one of them, no knowing if one of the townsfolk is a slave to their geas spell, forced to act against their will, no knowing if one of them packed an true polymorph, and is ready to ether turn you into a table immediately or turn an nearby object into an CR 9creature, no knowing if they have a secret familliar, no knowing if they have an plant growth planned, no knowing if any plant you have ever seen is an secret agent to their cause, no knowing who their glib tounges have persuaded to join them not even using magic just their persuasion skill, no knowing if they are going to use their vast monetary assets on an planar binding spell or on purchasing a load of mercinaries or in buying a fort, no knowing if one of them has an jack of all trades empowered counterspell, there is simply no knowing what an bard will throw at you, the peak of unpredictabillity.
no of course, a single bard can only do a few of those things at once and of course this is not an competition of teams of players, but this is what i think about bards, but many of the spells i mentioned above are already on the bard spell list, and magical secrets can get you many more, an well crafted party of bards can defeat any opponent as specialists, and a single bard is always a good jack-of-all-trades, that is why bards can be one of the most powerful classes in the game, there is no knowing if they are going to cast wish or planar ally or some other spell, if you dont know in advance what you are dealing with you can be knee deep in trouble real fast
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
counterpoint: bard with prep period, shure they dont have nearly the same versatillity and can only switch out spells if you use an optional rule in an unearthed arcana article, but i give you this:
lets say we have an theoretical 20th level bard who is challenged to an mage's duel by an local level 20 wizard. Both parties will meet at an predetermined location at an predetermined time, and they have two weeks to prepare. The theoretical bard has the following spells: greater invisibillity, awaken, counterspell, dispell magic, glibness, locate creature, hallucinatory terrain. most of these are relatively common bard spells, counterspell would have to be gotten by some kind of alternative means
in the weeks before the duel, he seeks out several bears, and casts awaken on them, and before the fight he hides them in the area. before the fight he also casts glibness on himself. as the fight starts, the bears spring out from their hiding places and the bard casts greater invisibillity on himself. Assuming he can sucessfully get the spell cast without the wizard counterspells, and assuming he can in a single turn make the wizard be completely surrounded by bears, he has essentially won and here is how:
as soon as the wizard casts any spell, the bard can respond by casting counterspell. since the bard is under the effect of glibness, he is able to always suceed on any dispel check, and since the bard is invisible, the wizard is unable to use counterspell on the counterspell since counterspell only works on visible targets, and so for as long as the bard has spell slots and the wizard casts only one 1st level spell per action, it can be assumed that the wizard will be unable to cast any spell that can help him fight these bears, or that even if the wizard can do something, the bard can simply cast dispel magic as nessesary. That leaves an most likely unarmed wizard to fight several bears without the help of his spells, something most wizards are likely unable to do
like yeah this combo assumes a lot of things, including that a wizard will be defeated by several bears before you run out of spell slots, that you get that initial greater invisibillity of, that the wizard did not have see invisibillity or true seeing active and it assumes you are able to hide several bears without it being noticed by an wizard, and that the wizard has no minions that can save him or her, my point is most classes are more powerful if they have time to prepare, and that wizards are probably not as invincible as you think (especially if they are put in an anti magic field and forced to fistfight seven bears at once)
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
Clerics may have their gods, and the Paladin's their Smites. But the bard is the true OP class. They may not be damage sponges, but in terms of social strength, versatile subclasses, and primary class abilities (bardic inspiration, jack of all trade, song of rest); the bard is the most dangerous thing in a campaign.
I will admit with my musical background, I'm a bit more bias to this class. But it should go without saying, never screw with the bard.
If you folks are looking at 20th level then I'd argue the cleric's 100% chance to call on divine intervention might be the way to go. It's a "DM may I?" ability in that the aid is under the discretion of the DM but it's potentially one of the most powerful abilities in the game under the premise the deity is intervening to save the character in that character's time of need.
Sorcerers can bend wish to their will with metamagic so wizards can suck it. :-P
I have the problem that whatever class i play one of the other players in the group thinks im op, and constantly makes comments about how its unfair how powerful i am. Im think of showing her this. Im currently playing a cleric.
The Wizard class is winning the Voting Poll ???
Unbelievable !!!
My Ready-to-rock&roll chars:
Dertinus Tristany // Amilcar Barca // Vicenç Sacrarius // Oriol Deulofeu // Grovtuk
I know right? THERE ARE OTHER VERSATILE CASTERS!! Like the bard.
PALADINS ARE BETTER!
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
FLAME WAAAAARRRRR!!!
I think this kinda depends on how you define 'power'? Action economy? Damage per turn? Utility?
Then again, in my experience, how a class/character is played has a lot of sway in how 'dangerous' that character is. Similarly, just because a class has the potential to be very useful/impressive, that build might not be able to flex all of it's awesomeness for some campaigns. I generally think that all of the classes are pretty well balanced and what makes the difference is mostly the situation and player controlling things.
yeah, 5e in general is pretty balanced, this is mostly an battle of "who is marinally the best?" or "who will dish out the most damage and have the best staying power?"
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
Except for the ranger, because everyone bullies the heck out of it
i mean the ranger is still pretty powerful, the beast master may seem weak but oh god you can add your proficiency bonus to everything meaning that if you choose an sufficiently strong beast it might be able to deal more damage than you per attack or have the strongest AC, most of the features at 11th level are just more situational versions of the 11th level fighter extra attack features, they have hunters mark spell is way better than it has any right to be, and they can both keep up with the fighter in damage while also having acess to a few good spells for some versatility in and out of combat, the third level features of all the subclasses almost always grant more damage out right and all of them are mostly pretty good, especially the 3rd level features for the hunter subclass, the biggest problems with the class really is just that favored enemy and favored terrain are kinda useless, something that will soon be fixed when that classvariants ua finally comes out in official material and once the animal companion actiually gets some decent gosh darn hit points for once instead of 4 per level
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
Yeah. But right now it's relegated to "that hybrid class that no one ever ever picks, because it's too situational.
If we are talking overall, I am assuming we mean as a level 20 character.
In this specific case, I would have to vote rogue, They may not do the most damage in combat or be the best suited social encounters, I would say a Paladin is best combat wise and a bard best is social encounters. However the rogue has the ability to be universally good in both situations. A optimized rogue would be nearly impossible to find and hit in combat and their wide range of proficient skills coupled with expertise and reliable talent make it nearly impossible for them to fail at any normal skill check.
You could even make them even more well rounded by leveling them to 18 as a rogue and either doing two levels bard or two levels paladin.
Clerics can be really OP if built right, but good berry can easily make healing a tad bit irrelevant. happening in my campaign and the cleric isn’t happy with the ranger. No need for healing anymore with good berries.
I agree it is rather confusing why the class with the lowest hit die, and would be crushed if it didn’t have a barbarian to cower behind is the top of the polls.