Pretty much all of the discussion I've seen about the recent removal of content related to the Hadozee has been specifically about the text, with some mention of an image of a Hadozee bard. I've not seen anyone else mention the fact that literally every image of a Hadozee was removed from this website.
Why was this done? What was so offensive about Boatswain Tarto's portrait that it needed to be purged from the site? What about the party of adventurers that used to be at the top of the Astral Adventurer's Guide Chapter 1? I feel like removing all pictures of Hadozee sends the message that the species itself is inherently racist. If that's the case, why not remove them from the game entirely? If it's not, why remove every single picture? Will the new printings of Spelljammer also have every picture of a Hadozee removed?
Again, this isn't about the racist lore that got cut, or the one image that bore disturbing similarities to old, racist depictions of black people. There are other threads discussing those topics. This is about the seemingly scorched earth approach of erasing every single image of a Hadozee.
It's probably all being reviewed (like, reviewed the way it should have been before release) and will be re-released when it's determined what if any of the content is appropriate.
Removing things, as the past few days has shown, is a lot easier and faster than the explanation, which almost certainly has to go through several teams of people before issued. Teams.
Why can no one just wait to see what the explanation is rather than shotgunning the forums with thread after thread, complaint after complaint?
It's probably all being reviewed (like, reviewed the way it should have been before release) and will be re-released when it's determined what if any of the content is appropriate.
It's probably all being reviewed (like, reviewed the way it should have been before release) and will be re-released when it's determined what if any of the content is appropriate.
I hope the art review includes adding buttons or snaps to the sides of all of their clothing so I can stop thinking 'How did they get that shirt on?" haha.
So, five days later, still feeling that explanation is coming?
Five days later, you still care?
Five days later, and I do. I don't own S:AiS, but I can imagine being frustrated by part of the product you paid for disappearing. And Tarto's art is gone as well. Complaining about a free product changing is petty, but the fact remains that all we've heard from WotC is silence.
Maybe you should evaluate why the removal of content that you never owned and that you did not enjoy to begin with has disturbed you so. DDB has been changing, adding, and removing content for the entirety of its existence. If this is a shock to you, maybe it is time to pay attention to what you have been spending your money on.
WotC was not silent anyway. This is an official statement on the hadozee, so decidedly not silent. Pay particular attention to the language used. Note that they did not say in this statement that the text was a problem, but the content. Imagery is included under 'content'. An additional statement may have been determined to be unnecessary, or one may be pending. It does not really matter.
But when they say “we’re conducting a secret review” and then ignore us for five days without giving us our content back?
For starters, the review is hardly “secret” - it is an internal review without public details, but if is a review they publicly announced. As the public, we have no right to know what their internal processes are—nor should we. These kinds of investigations can be actively harmed by public transparency—Wizards needs to be able to ask itself the tough questions and likely figure out how to change processes. That is a messy, complicated process, and showing the public how your sausage is made can not only hurt consumer confidence, it could result in a less effective, less compressive review.
More importantly, it is a time consuming process. Expecting a response in “five days” borders on the laughable—this kind of thing can, and should, take months to get right.
Finally, it is not “our content”—the digital version is and remains Wizards’ content. That is fairly clearly laid out in the terms and conditions and is industry standard for digital content. If Wizards wishes to remove content that could easily be associated with minstrel shows and thus with the same racist stereotypes of the removed text from their digital platforms and future publications, that is their right.
Let me elaborate for a moment, please. The reason I don't own Spelljammer is because (a)the price of the product, which I really can't afford if I want to support 3rd party companies and the like, and (b)because I have no assurance that the product will be complete, as this thread has pointedly demonstrated. My issue is not with the content I've bought, it's with Wizard's business model and the content other people have bought.
This is entirely irrelevant to why you care about content that was removed. It has no bearing on it at all. It may drive you from purchasing content, but you specifically stated that after five days of waiting, you still care that there is no specific statement on removed images. Your income and your reasons for not purchasing have nothing to do with current events.
... I can imagine being frustrated by part of the product you paid for disappearing. ... but the fact remains that all we've heard from WotC is silence.
First, no user owns anything on this site. Not one line of text or image is yours. You have already demonstrated an understanding of this fact in your above statement when you admitted that this is the very reason you do not spend money on DDB. So you understand then that no product that one pays for has been removed. You are paying for the license, which is still available for use with these very books. Again, the product that one purchases is a limited license to use the content. The content that license is used for is subject to change as outlined in the terms of service and at every point of sale. The OP is upset over something they specifically agreed to and you are upset over something that has nothing at all to do with you and is standard practice on any and all websites that sell access to digital content. It is ridiculous any way you cut it. Further, you claimed that WotC was silent on the issue. This is demonstrably false and I provided you evidence that supports that it is a false statement.
This is the most relevant section, I believe. First off, they said they're removing the "offensive" content -- this doesn't fall under that category,
The illustrations not qualifying as offensive is merely your opinion. There is an old saying about the value of one's opinion that I encourage you to seek out.
so it seems like they took down the content as a “panic button”
Or they recognized that it may be hurtful to some of their consumers (the people that give them money) and responded appropriately to protect their interests as any profit-based company would do.
— they clearly don’t know what to do, so they remove anything that could be considered controversial and issue a blank, meaningless statement on how hard they work to make it right.
Did you bother reading that statement? It was hardly blank or meaningless. This section leads me to believe you either did not read it, or there is some motivated reasoning at work to interpret the official statement so.
And hey, they’re trying. That’s a start. But when they say “we’re conducting a secret review” and then ignore us for five days without giving us our content back?
Not 'secret', internal. May I ask what has made you believe that you are owed a seat at the table for this internal review? What expertise you bring to the table? Additionally, 'our'? No, not your content. Their content. In your case, not even content you have paid to use. Obviously there will eventually be imagery put back on the page, as there is an associated image with every playable race. It will not be put up on your time though. This may be news to you, but art takes time to make. Art that is used in publication then has to pass through a review process, especially in this case where they are responding to a serious publishing blunder.
That bothered me enough that when I saw someone echoing my thoughts and immediately being shut down, I wanted to step in. Then again, since I have no right to contribute in any way, shape, or form because I haven’t yet bought the three books, I guess I’ll just step out again. Thank you for your time.
Then would it hurt to give us an update, and put these debates to rest? I can accept that it’s supposed to take a long time, but the silence isn’t helping my worries.
Five days is nothing--and any reasonable person would not see this brief period of time as "silence", and instead just a regular part of the process. Companies do not like giving "we are working on this still" updates without any substantive responses--it is bad for PR, looks like they are doing nothing, and can actively hurt internal investigations as the internal investigation will want to rush results in order to have something to report with the update. Additionally, it gives the expectation that Wizards has to say something at all--what players actually want to see are the results and that this kind of thing never happens again. Players knowing how Wizards accomplishes the internal restructuring necessary to achieve this end is, frankly, not really our business (unless this becomes a systemic problem with future releases moving forward--at that point Wizards would need more transparency to win back customer trust, but we are not at that point yet).
For now, I would not read too much into the silence--this is simply how the process works, and if you are waiting for an update, it is likely you will be waiting quiet some time... and possibly forever. There really is no point stressing over it, the actions were done and done for reasons that you indicate you might understand. Wizards will do what it must--for all their flaws, they do seem genuinely determined to excise the dark legacy of Gygax's racism from the game, and, though they messed up pretty egregiously this time, they are still new to the "Diversity and Dragons" path, and some stumbles are to be expected.
What I’m trying to say is that this content is not the stuff that’s caused so much controversy (for good reason). This just seems like they panicked and immediately took down everything even remotely connected to the Hadozee, with no assurance we’ll get it back.
This statement is incorrect for a reason I already mentioned in the post you were responding to. The problem with the Hadozee was not just the text--some of the art looked quite close to images from minstrel shows, the racist shows of individuals designed to caricature the very group that the remainder of Wizards' content was controversial "for good reason". While it is possible this art was not intentionally offensive--they likely were taking a motif of a pirate's monkey combining the species' traditional use on ships for entertainment with bard characteristics from D&D--some of the art was a major contributor to the controversy surrounding this issue, so Wizards decided to remove all potentially offensive art pending further review. Practically speaking, this makes sense--it is the easiest way to take down potentially offensive content without subjecting yourself to the potential PR disaster of accidently leaving in something, and it being said "you not only released something offensive, when you tried to fix it, you STILL left offensive content in the game."
The downside of all these digital stuff is that the books can be changed without you doing anything and being completely unable to look at an older version.
Most of the time I don't even know what's changing, but my phone tells me that my books are updated every other week. Really annoying not to know what's going on
The downside of all these digital stuff is that the books can be changed without you doing anything and being completely unable to look at an older version.
Most of the time I don't even know what's changing, but my phone tells me that my books are updated every other week. Really annoying not to know what's going on
But that's a benefit of online stuff, right? I mean, that your online material is always up-to-date is one of its main advantages. You can always check the FAQ to find out what has changed. And I'm not sure if there is a changelog, but there should be. In any case it is good that the books are updated to the latest version. What they are not going to do is keep several versions online, that would be a mess.
I have no issue with the art being replaced. Deleted without replacement is another matter.
We all know they're never coming back to this topic. Their review is complete, and they removed everything except a bare-bones entry for the race. All the art is gone and it will not be replaced. Let's not pretend otherwise.
As should be fairly obvious, your proposal of "replacing" art at the time of removal is not exactly possible. Art takes time--you have to commission the product and, especially in a case like this, properly vet the art in order to ensure you are not simply repeating the issues that led to the present situation. That is not something you can simply do on a whim, and the idea that Wizards could snap its fingers and do something other than "delet[ing] without replacement" borders on the foolish.
As for your alarmist statements of Wizards' "never coming back to this topic", the simple reality is that you are basing that assumption on pure speculation without any actual data to support your claim. This is the first time Wizards has really been faced with such a situation, where they have the opportunity to remove offensive content from the game and update the game with less offensive imagery. While it is possible that no further update will be done and the current situation will remain the new status quo, it is premature to project this kind of blanket fatalism a mere eleven days after announcing the review. These are things that can take weeks--if not months. Perhaps if they are silent on the Hadozee by January 2023, your statement might carry some weight, but less than a fortnight from Wizards saying they are starting their review? That is merely shooting in the dark and hoping you hit a target.
As for your alarmist statements of Wizards' "never coming back to this topic", the simple reality is that you are basing that assumption on pure speculation without any actual data to support your claim.
It is absolutely inexcusable that the actual data to support or refute the claim doesn't exist. WOTC has had ample time to provide an explanation of what's happening and the closest they've come to providing one is the statement referenced earlier in this thread where they said they were removing (no mention of replacing) objectionable content. There's no world here in which WOTC is not being abusive of its customers.
As for your alarmist statements of Wizards' "never coming back to this topic", the simple reality is that you are basing that assumption on pure speculation without any actual data to support your claim.
It is absolutely inexcusable that the actual data to support or refute the claim doesn't exist. WOTC has had ample time to provide an explanation of what's happening and the closest they've come to providing one is the statement referenced earlier in this thread where they said they were removing (no mention of replacing) objectionable content. There's no world here in which WOTC is not being abusive of its customers.
I think the real issue is unrealistic expectations of customers - not abuse thereof by Wizards.
Wizards is aware that D&D has a complex history with ingrained racism and that the game’s creators were fairly racist people - they said as much in court filings against Ernest Gygax’s new company last week. With 2020’s paradigm shift in how race is viewed, Wizards decided to examine itself and create a number of safeguards to prevent the offensive origins of their games from surfacing…
Safeguards which failed. Two years of reforms, restructuring, new hires such as sensitivity screeners, and of training all failed and all now need to be examined. Until such examination is complete and the failings in the system can be discovered and addressed, of course Wizards will be conservative in what they want to release - especially since they cannot afford to say “here is our new art” and have the system fail again and let something problematic through.
Now, if you think even a cursory review of two years of corporate structuring can be accomplished in eleven days, I have a bridge to sell you.
It is absolutely inexcusable that the actual data to support or refute the claim doesn't exist.
It is absolutely normal that the actual data is not publicly available. It is quite possible that WotC doesn't even know what they're going to do.
It's likely that they'll have replacement art, because it would actually be a substantial layout problem to simply remove images without putting something else in the same place (need to reflow text, page numbers may change, etc) but obtaining new art isn't a fast process.
Pretty much all of the discussion I've seen about the recent removal of content related to the Hadozee has been specifically about the text, with some mention of an image of a Hadozee bard. I've not seen anyone else mention the fact that literally every image of a Hadozee was removed from this website.
Why was this done? What was so offensive about Boatswain Tarto's portrait that it needed to be purged from the site? What about the party of adventurers that used to be at the top of the Astral Adventurer's Guide Chapter 1? I feel like removing all pictures of Hadozee sends the message that the species itself is inherently racist. If that's the case, why not remove them from the game entirely? If it's not, why remove every single picture? Will the new printings of Spelljammer also have every picture of a Hadozee removed?
Again, this isn't about the racist lore that got cut, or the one image that bore disturbing similarities to old, racist depictions of black people. There are other threads discussing those topics. This is about the seemingly scorched earth approach of erasing every single image of a Hadozee.
It's probably all being reviewed (like, reviewed the way it should have been before release) and will be re-released when it's determined what if any of the content is appropriate.
Removing things, as the past few days has shown, is a lot easier and faster than the explanation, which almost certainly has to go through several teams of people before issued. Teams.
Why can no one just wait to see what the explanation is rather than shotgunning the forums with thread after thread, complaint after complaint?
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I hadn't thought of this. I hope you're right.
I hope the art review includes adding buttons or snaps to the sides of all of their clothing so I can stop thinking 'How did they get that shirt on?" haha.
All hadozee know mending and use it every day when getting dressed.
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I don't think anyone wants the review to be rushed, I'm glad WotC is taking their time to make sure it's appropriate.
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HERE.Maybe you should evaluate why the removal of content that you never owned and that you did not enjoy to begin with has disturbed you so. DDB has been changing, adding, and removing content for the entirety of its existence. If this is a shock to you, maybe it is time to pay attention to what you have been spending your money on.
WotC was not silent anyway. This is an official statement on the hadozee, so decidedly not silent. Pay particular attention to the language used. Note that they did not say in this statement that the text was a problem, but the content. Imagery is included under 'content'. An additional statement may have been determined to be unnecessary, or one may be pending. It does not really matter.
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For starters, the review is hardly “secret” - it is an internal review without public details, but if is a review they publicly announced. As the public, we have no right to know what their internal processes are—nor should we. These kinds of investigations can be actively harmed by public transparency—Wizards needs to be able to ask itself the tough questions and likely figure out how to change processes. That is a messy, complicated process, and showing the public how your sausage is made can not only hurt consumer confidence, it could result in a less effective, less compressive review.
More importantly, it is a time consuming process. Expecting a response in “five days” borders on the laughable—this kind of thing can, and should, take months to get right.
Finally, it is not “our content”—the digital version is and remains Wizards’ content. That is fairly clearly laid out in the terms and conditions and is industry standard for digital content. If Wizards wishes to remove content that could easily be associated with minstrel shows and thus with the same racist stereotypes of the removed text from their digital platforms and future publications, that is their right.
This is entirely irrelevant to why you care about content that was removed. It has no bearing on it at all. It may drive you from purchasing content, but you specifically stated that after five days of waiting, you still care that there is no specific statement on removed images. Your income and your reasons for not purchasing have nothing to do with current events.
It really does not help your point(s) actually. Your points:
First, no user owns anything on this site. Not one line of text or image is yours. You have already demonstrated an understanding of this fact in your above statement when you admitted that this is the very reason you do not spend money on DDB. So you understand then that no product that one pays for has been removed. You are paying for the license, which is still available for use with these very books. Again, the product that one purchases is a limited license to use the content. The content that license is used for is subject to change as outlined in the terms of service and at every point of sale. The OP is upset over something they specifically agreed to and you are upset over something that has nothing at all to do with you and is standard practice on any and all websites that sell access to digital content. It is ridiculous any way you cut it. Further, you claimed that WotC was silent on the issue. This is demonstrably false and I provided you evidence that supports that it is a false statement.
The illustrations not qualifying as offensive is merely your opinion. There is an old saying about the value of one's opinion that I encourage you to seek out.
Or they recognized that it may be hurtful to some of their consumers (the people that give them money) and responded appropriately to protect their interests as any profit-based company would do.
Did you bother reading that statement? It was hardly blank or meaningless. This section leads me to believe you either did not read it, or there is some motivated reasoning at work to interpret the official statement so.
Not 'secret', internal. May I ask what has made you believe that you are owed a seat at the table for this internal review? What expertise you bring to the table? Additionally, 'our'? No, not your content. Their content. In your case, not even content you have paid to use. Obviously there will eventually be imagery put back on the page, as there is an associated image with every playable race. It will not be put up on your time though. This may be news to you, but art takes time to make. Art that is used in publication then has to pass through a review process, especially in this case where they are responding to a serious publishing blunder.
So, this is all about entitlement then. I see.
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Five days is nothing--and any reasonable person would not see this brief period of time as "silence", and instead just a regular part of the process. Companies do not like giving "we are working on this still" updates without any substantive responses--it is bad for PR, looks like they are doing nothing, and can actively hurt internal investigations as the internal investigation will want to rush results in order to have something to report with the update. Additionally, it gives the expectation that Wizards has to say something at all--what players actually want to see are the results and that this kind of thing never happens again. Players knowing how Wizards accomplishes the internal restructuring necessary to achieve this end is, frankly, not really our business (unless this becomes a systemic problem with future releases moving forward--at that point Wizards would need more transparency to win back customer trust, but we are not at that point yet).
For now, I would not read too much into the silence--this is simply how the process works, and if you are waiting for an update, it is likely you will be waiting quiet some time... and possibly forever. There really is no point stressing over it, the actions were done and done for reasons that you indicate you might understand. Wizards will do what it must--for all their flaws, they do seem genuinely determined to excise the dark legacy of Gygax's racism from the game, and, though they messed up pretty egregiously this time, they are still new to the "Diversity and Dragons" path, and some stumbles are to be expected.
This statement is incorrect for a reason I already mentioned in the post you were responding to. The problem with the Hadozee was not just the text--some of the art looked quite close to images from minstrel shows, the racist shows of individuals designed to caricature the very group that the remainder of Wizards' content was controversial "for good reason". While it is possible this art was not intentionally offensive--they likely were taking a motif of a pirate's monkey combining the species' traditional use on ships for entertainment with bard characteristics from D&D--some of the art was a major contributor to the controversy surrounding this issue, so Wizards decided to remove all potentially offensive art pending further review. Practically speaking, this makes sense--it is the easiest way to take down potentially offensive content without subjecting yourself to the potential PR disaster of accidently leaving in something, and it being said "you not only released something offensive, when you tried to fix it, you STILL left offensive content in the game."
Definitely agree with that.
The downside of all these digital stuff is that the books can be changed without you doing anything and being completely unable to look at an older version.
Most of the time I don't even know what's changing, but my phone tells me that my books are updated every other week. Really annoying not to know what's going on
But that's a benefit of online stuff, right? I mean, that your online material is always up-to-date is one of its main advantages.
You can always check the FAQ to find out what has changed. And I'm not sure if there is a changelog, but there should be.
In any case it is good that the books are updated to the latest version. What they are not going to do is keep several versions online, that would be a mess.
I hope this stays on the front page like a stain until the art is replaced. I fear Mcbobbo is right of course.
As should be fairly obvious, your proposal of "replacing" art at the time of removal is not exactly possible. Art takes time--you have to commission the product and, especially in a case like this, properly vet the art in order to ensure you are not simply repeating the issues that led to the present situation. That is not something you can simply do on a whim, and the idea that Wizards could snap its fingers and do something other than "delet[ing] without replacement" borders on the foolish.
As for your alarmist statements of Wizards' "never coming back to this topic", the simple reality is that you are basing that assumption on pure speculation without any actual data to support your claim. This is the first time Wizards has really been faced with such a situation, where they have the opportunity to remove offensive content from the game and update the game with less offensive imagery. While it is possible that no further update will be done and the current situation will remain the new status quo, it is premature to project this kind of blanket fatalism a mere eleven days after announcing the review. These are things that can take weeks--if not months. Perhaps if they are silent on the Hadozee by January 2023, your statement might carry some weight, but less than a fortnight from Wizards saying they are starting their review? That is merely shooting in the dark and hoping you hit a target.
It is absolutely inexcusable that the actual data to support or refute the claim doesn't exist. WOTC has had ample time to provide an explanation of what's happening and the closest they've come to providing one is the statement referenced earlier in this thread where they said they were removing (no mention of replacing) objectionable content. There's no world here in which WOTC is not being abusive of its customers.
I think the real issue is unrealistic expectations of customers - not abuse thereof by Wizards.
Wizards is aware that D&D has a complex history with ingrained racism and that the game’s creators were fairly racist people - they said as much in court filings against Ernest Gygax’s new company last week. With 2020’s paradigm shift in how race is viewed, Wizards decided to examine itself and create a number of safeguards to prevent the offensive origins of their games from surfacing…
Safeguards which failed. Two years of reforms, restructuring, new hires such as sensitivity screeners, and of training all failed and all now need to be examined. Until such examination is complete and the failings in the system can be discovered and addressed, of course Wizards will be conservative in what they want to release - especially since they cannot afford to say “here is our new art” and have the system fail again and let something problematic through.
Now, if you think even a cursory review of two years of corporate structuring can be accomplished in eleven days, I have a bridge to sell you.
It is absolutely normal that the actual data is not publicly available. It is quite possible that WotC doesn't even know what they're going to do.
It's likely that they'll have replacement art, because it would actually be a substantial layout problem to simply remove images without putting something else in the same place (need to reflow text, page numbers may change, etc) but obtaining new art isn't a fast process.
It's possible that they are looking at doing a total redesign of the look of the Hadozee. That really could take a while.
Sugar Glider Hadozee FTW!
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!