How is the hoopak a martial weapon? It’s a combo spear & sling. Both are simple weapons
It packs a lot of bang for your buck and if i'm not mistaken, it's the only finesse two-handed weapon in the game.
Define "bang for your buck". It does the same damage as a measly shortsword, only it takes both your hands so you can't even dual wield
Also, being a finesse weapon mostly only matters for rogues, who can't even use it
Literally the only situation I can think of where a hoopak might have any utility at all is if you're playing with a DM who's an absolute tyrant about object interactions, so the melee/ranged combo could matter
I mean by that the hoopak has a lot of traits and utility.
While most people can use simple weapons with proficiency, martial weapons require more specialized training to use effectively and obviously the Dev thought it better fitted the latter.
Finesse. When making an attack with a finesse weapon, you use your choice of your Strength or Dexterity modifier for the attack and damage rolls. You must use the same modifier for both rolls.
That doesn't say using Str via finesse removes disadvantage after 30ft.
🤦♂️
The only other weapons that a Str build can use at range are things like the handaxe, etc., and the one with the best range is the javelin with a range of 30/120 feet. The hoopak has a longer range of 40/160 feet. This is the only weapon in the game with a standard range greater than 30 feet that can use Str instead of Dex.
So you cited only part of the logic and information required to understand what you were saying, gotcha.
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Finesse. When making an attack with a finesse weapon, you use your choice of your Strength or Dexterity modifier for the attack and damage rolls. You must use the same modifier for both rolls.
That doesn't say using Str via finesse removes disadvantage after 30ft.
🤦♂️
The only other weapons that a Str build can use at range are things like the handaxe, etc., and the one with the best range is the javelin with a range of 30/120 feet. The hoopak has a longer range of 40/160 feet. This is the only weapon in the game with a standard range greater than 30 feet that can use Str instead of Dex.
So you cited only part of the logic and information required to understand what you were saying, gotcha.
Gee, I figured things like weapon ranges would be obvious. I’m sorry, I woulda posted those from the beginning if I had known you didn’t know those things like basic weapon stats. My bad yo.
Remind me which of those are melee weapons with the thrown property?
None of them. Why? What in the nine hells do melee weapons with the thrown property have anything to do with it other than having shorter ranges than the hoopak?!? I’m not understanding your point, please explain it.
Finesse. When making an attack with a finesse weapon, you use your choice of your Strength or Dexterity modifier for the attack and damage rolls. You must use the same modifier for both rolls.
That doesn't say using Str via finesse removes disadvantage after 30ft.
🤦♂️
The only other weapons that a Str build can use at range are things like the handaxe, etc., and the one with the best range is the javelin with a range of 30/120 feet. The hoopak has a longer range of 40/160 feet. This is the only weapon in the game with a standard range greater than 30 feet that can use Str instead of Dex.
So you cited only part of the logic and information required to understand what you were saying, gotcha.
Gee, I figured things like weapon ranges would be obvious. I’m sorry, I woulda posted those from the beginning if I had known you didn’t know those things like basic weapon stats. My bad yo.
My apologies, I didn't think it was worth learning all the stats of every single weapon in the game so I'd know exactly what people are thinking when they make unclear statements.
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...You don't...have to learn the stats of every weapon. They can be found fairly easily in the Equipment section of the game rules.
Right, which is why I haven't. He was unclear what he was actually referring to in the initial post, beyond it being Finesse so a Str build could have a normal range larger than 30. My initial interpretation was that he was saying that Finesse somehow removed that disadvantage, which was new to me, so I asked what he meant, in case I'd misunderstood or missed something (or if it was a rule special to hoopaks). In reality, he meant that there were no other RAW weapons with a normal range of 30 that could be used by Str, but knowing that that's the case (without having been told) would require knowing the stats for every potential weapon, hence my comment on that.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Finesse. When making an attack with a finesse weapon, you use your choice of your Strength or Dexterity modifier for the attack and damage rolls. You must use the same modifier for both rolls.
That doesn't say using Str via finesse removes disadvantage after 30ft.
🤦♂️
The only other weapons that a Str build can use at range are things like the handaxe, etc., and the one with the best range is the javelin with a range of 30/120 feet. The hoopak has a longer range of 40/160 feet. This is the only weapon in the game with a standard range greater than 30 feet that can use Str instead of Dex.
So you cited only part of the logic and information required to understand what you were saying, gotcha.
Gee, I figured things like weapon ranges would be obvious. I’m sorry, I woulda posted those from the beginning if I had known you didn’t know those things like basic weapon stats. My bad yo.
My apologies, I didn't think it was worth learning all the stats of every single weapon in the game so I'd know exactly what people are thinking when they make unclear statements.
My apologies. Stuff like weapon stats are just super easy for me to remember and it didn’t occur to me that others wouldn’t. I particularly remember the thrown ranges since they are used for Str builds and they’re all pretty 💩, and that the javelin has the best of them at 30/120.
I can see that. It's the kind of thing I would memorise easily, but I've just not had that desire yet. On my very few Str builds, I've always had a reasonably high Dex anyway or had several ranged attackers in the party, so "good ranged weapons for Str builds" isn't a trait I've ever looked for. Useful to know for the future though.
I shouldn't have reacted though, so apologies.
Peace.
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Remind me which of those are melee weapons with the thrown property?
None of them. Why? What in the nine hells do melee weapons with the thrown property have anything to do with it other than having shorter ranges than the hoopak?!? I’m not understanding your point, please explain it.
It means that none of those weapons can use strength for their attacks. The Hoopak's got special rules, but having the finesse property does nothing to impact whether it's useful for a high-strength character.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Remind me which of those are melee weapons with the thrown property?
None of them. Why? What in the nine hells do melee weapons with the thrown property have anything to do with it other than having shorter ranges than the hoopak?!? I’m not understanding your point, please explain it.
It means that none of those weapons can use strength for their attacks. The Hoopak's got special rules, but having the finesse property does nothing to impact whether it's useful for a high-strength character.
All melee thrown weapons (except the dagger) use Str instead of Dex for their attacks, both melee attacks and ranged attacks. That’s why Barbarians and Paladins get choices like handaxes and javelins, to make use of their Str score at range. The hoopak (and the dagger) gives the user a choice to use Str or Dex.
I traversed this thread and I’m lost. . . The Hoopak isn’t a thrown weapon. . . It has a range for the slingshot. Honestly I think the weapon is disappointing for what it is. Or was. It was a Kender weapon/tool. Spear or staff with a slingshot attached to one end that doubled as a walking stick. Madd famous by Tasslehoff Burrfoot. A Kender Rogue. And 5e RAW has made it a useless filler for the books except for those str builds with martial weapons proficiency that want to use the slingshot. (There’s better ranged weapons that deal better damage than 1d4 imo but 🤷♂️) personally I’d automatically give all kender, gnome and halflings proficiency with this weapon. Why gnome? In Dragonlance the kender have gnome origins depending on which lore you follow. (I could be mistaken it’s literally been decades since I touched a Dragonlance campaign but I vaguely remember some of the lore behind some of the chaos races) Why halfling? Simply because they’re so much like the kender that the flavor in my mind it fits them. Looking at it as it was written the only reason I see that it was deemed a martial weapon is these two properties:
1) Finesse (stupid because we have finesse simple weapons) 2) Special (basically 2 weapons in 1, the real reason for its classification imo)
mind you the 2 in 1 isn’t really worth the trade off of a feat required by anyone not proficient with martial weapons to use it.
but back to my original thought I’d definitely allow kender proficiency without another thought regardless of class proficiencies, as would most of the people I know, because at the end of the day it’s a weapon only common to kender. 🤷♂️ don’t see how it’s any different than elf weapon training 🤷♂️
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I mean by that the hoopak has a lot of traits and utility.
While most people can use simple weapons with proficiency, martial weapons require more specialized training to use effectively and obviously the Dev thought it better fitted the latter.
So you cited only part of the logic and information required to understand what you were saying, gotcha.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Gee, I figured things like weapon ranges would be obvious. I’m sorry, I woulda posted those from the beginning if I had known you didn’t know those things like basic weapon stats. My bad yo.
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The fact that it's a finesse weapon has no impact on its function as a ranged throwing weapon for strength builds.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Why so? Being able to choose between Strenght or Dexterity to make ranged attack is an impact the finesse trait has on such build.
Of course it does. The finesse property lets you choose Str or Dex, as opposed to the sling
, dart, boomerang, shortbow, longbow, hand crossbow, light crossbow and heavy crossbow which all exclusively use Dex.Creating Epic Boons on DDB
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Remind me which of those are melee weapons with the thrown property?
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
(The dart is also finesse, by the way; it's the only finesse ranged weapon.)
Helpful rewriter of Japanese->English translation and delver into software codebases (she/e/they)
Ahh, yes. Quite right.
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None of them. Why? What in the nine hells do melee weapons with the thrown property have anything to do with it other than having shorter ranges than the hoopak?!? I’m not understanding your point, please explain it.
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My apologies, I didn't think it was worth learning all the stats of every single weapon in the game so I'd know exactly what people are thinking when they make unclear statements.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
...You don't...have to learn the stats of every weapon. They can be found fairly easily in the Equipment section of the game rules.
Right, which is why I haven't. He was unclear what he was actually referring to in the initial post, beyond it being Finesse so a Str build could have a normal range larger than 30. My initial interpretation was that he was saying that Finesse somehow removed that disadvantage, which was new to me, so I asked what he meant, in case I'd misunderstood or missed something (or if it was a rule special to hoopaks). In reality, he meant that there were no other RAW weapons with a normal range of 30 that could be used by Str, but knowing that that's the case (without having been told) would require knowing the stats for every potential weapon, hence my comment on that.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
My apologies. Stuff like weapon stats are just super easy for me to remember and it didn’t occur to me that others wouldn’t. I particularly remember the thrown ranges since they are used for Str builds and they’re all pretty 💩, and that the javelin has the best of them at 30/120.
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I can see that. It's the kind of thing I would memorise easily, but I've just not had that desire yet. On my very few Str builds, I've always had a reasonably high Dex anyway or had several ranged attackers in the party, so "good ranged weapons for Str builds" isn't a trait I've ever looked for. Useful to know for the future though.
I shouldn't have reacted though, so apologies.
Peace.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
It means that none of those weapons can use strength for their attacks. The Hoopak's got special rules, but having the finesse property does nothing to impact whether it's useful for a high-strength character.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
All melee thrown weapons (except the dagger) use Str instead of Dex for their attacks, both melee attacks and ranged attacks. That’s why Barbarians and Paladins get choices like handaxes and javelins, to make use of their Str score at range. The hoopak (and the dagger) gives the user a choice to use Str or Dex.
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I traversed this thread and I’m lost. . . The Hoopak isn’t a thrown weapon. . . It has a range for the slingshot. Honestly I think the weapon is disappointing for what it is. Or was. It was a Kender weapon/tool. Spear or staff with a slingshot attached to one end that doubled as a walking stick. Madd famous by Tasslehoff Burrfoot. A Kender Rogue. And 5e RAW has made it a useless filler for the books except for those str builds with martial weapons proficiency that want to use the slingshot. (There’s better ranged weapons that deal better damage than 1d4 imo but 🤷♂️) personally I’d automatically give all kender, gnome and halflings proficiency with this weapon. Why gnome? In Dragonlance the kender have gnome origins depending on which lore you follow. (I could be mistaken it’s literally been decades since I touched a Dragonlance campaign but I vaguely remember some of the lore behind some of the chaos races) Why halfling? Simply because they’re so much like the kender that the flavor in my mind it fits them. Looking at it as it was written the only reason I see that it was deemed a martial weapon is these two properties:
1) Finesse (stupid because we have finesse simple weapons) 2) Special (basically 2 weapons in 1, the real reason for its classification imo)
mind you the 2 in 1 isn’t really worth the trade off of a feat required by anyone not proficient with martial weapons to use it.
but back to my original thought I’d definitely allow kender proficiency without another thought regardless of class proficiencies, as would most of the people I know, because at the end of the day it’s a weapon only common to kender. 🤷♂️ don’t see how it’s any different than elf weapon training 🤷♂️