What of us who aren't using much at all in the way of 3rd party anything? Who are not WotC die hards but buy what we think is worth buying?
If we were all so in a rush to 'run directly into the arms of its competitors,' why haven't we long before this? Why doesn't Pathfinder have WotC's market share?
I'm afraid that I don't understand the drive of your question here. Can you please restate?
... As a company they aren't actually listening to us, they are listening to their loss in revenue.
Which is exactly why I said that the way to apply pressure was to cancel your subscription, if you had one. Endlessly creating alts and hateposting in every thread in GD is not "pressure". It's just toxicity that's making everybody miserable for no real purpose.
If you're done with 5e, I'm not gonna stop you. Be done. Sign out of your account and take your leave, enjoy your games in whichever system you decide to try out next. All I'm asking for is a reduction in the constant pointless spite that's happening right now.
Who exactly is forcing you to read these comments?? Seems like this is an issue you could handle just by turning away...
SO a large contingent apparently still isn't getting the message that hate speech from dead former customers is nothing more than white noise to Hasbro and those in charge. They don't understand that walking out and stating they will never again spend anything on WotC product makes anything else they have to say irrelevant to their current plans and direction. They don't understand the notion of the boy who cried wolf. STILL up in arms, still on the attack but now it's against a proposed document we haven't even seen s DRAFT of, much less any details. Folks, the voices being listened to are those saying they are teetering on the edge of walking out for good and telling Hasbro they BETTER do it right the second time.
Some are hurt because of the rabid hyena reference, while calling WotC and Hosbro the devil incarnate, and evil tot he core. Hypocrisy anyone? There seems to be a fair bit available to go around.
the one question about why PF doesn't have a lion's share of the industry is a legitimate one. My son was/is into PF a bit and he plays a lot more D&D than PF, as do most of the groups and people he plays with. I think in the end, it's because while PF is an alternative option, D&D seems to "so it better" in enough areas to hold control of the market. While that is NOT a reason to support the BS they tried to spin, it IS reason to try and keep that brand alive, even if it's under some strict "you better....." guidelines from the community.
As a community, we actually have managed to grab the ear of a multi-billion dollar company. That is no small feat and to see a bunch of folks who cling to their rage like some kind of lifeline continue to spew vitriol about a company who HAS actually started to listen, is sad. I think of it from a parental perspective, and when we give in to our vocal child, and they STILL rant, rage and throw tantrums, we know, the NEXT time they start their hissy fit, we can just ignore them, because apparently NOTHING is good enough to heal their poor wounded feelings, so why bother trying. Let's not UNdo what we've managed to do. Let's keep the axe poised, as we wait for the formal release of the new license. If they screw THAT up, too, then ok, OFF WITH THEIR HEADS as it were.
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Talk to your Players.Talk to your DM. If more people used this advice, there would be 24.74% fewer threads on Tactics, Rules and DM discussions.
SO a large contingent apparently still isn't getting the message that hate speech from dead former customers is nothing more than white noise to Hasbro and those in charge. They don't understand that walking out and stating they will never again spend anything on WotC product makes anything else they have to say irrelevant to their current plans and direction.
If this is true, and this speech is meaningless, why are people so desperate to suppress it?
If Hasbro isn't paying attention to why they're experiencing a customer exodus - one which may continue over time, and potentially accelerate as word spreads - they deserve what follows.
They need to pay attention to people leaving forever if they want to take action to stop the bleeding. They should not be in customer retention mode at the moment (where they can safely ignore the odd 'leaving forever' comment), they should be in full PR/Brand damage control mode. Those things require different priorities, and different information.
Some are hurt because of the rabid hyena reference, ...
Not hurt, but calling it out for the blatant trolling that it is.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The age of OGL is over. The Time of the ORC has come!
The moment that WotC declares OGL 1.0a "de-authorized", "revoked" or any such nonsense is the moment I release as much content as possible under OGL 1.0a and say, "Sue me WotC". OGL1.0a cannot be revoked. If thousands of us do it, the countersuit will be a class action suit.
Yeah, everyone understands that they're desperately trying to save a billion dollar corporation that doesn't care about them in the slightest.
Here's the thing though, the rest of us are trying to do the opposite, so why would we leave??
Because THE OBJECTIVE is not "kill Wizards of the Coast". It never has been.
THE OBJECTIVE is "preserve the thriving third-party 5e ecosystem and stop the rug from being unfairly pulled out from under the thousands of creatives that drive that ecosystem."
People running around screaming "DEATH TO WIZARDS OF THE COAST!", "KILL D&D FOREVER!", "BURN THE TRAITORS!", "RAWRGH RAWRGH DEATH MURDER MAYHEM!" are getting in the way of THE OBJECTIVE.
You. Are. Compromising. The. Mission.
You are attempting to destroy the thriving third-party ecosystem and to yank the rug out from underneath those thousands of creatives, exactly the same as OGL 1.1 was, by attempting to Anarchy and Fire Wizards to death. You are making yourself a problem, not part of the solution. What do you think will happen to the thriving third-party ecosystem we went to war to save in the first place if the "DEATH TO WOTSEE!" crowd gets their wish? If Wotsee goes D&D becomes a dead game, with no further updates or support, and nobody will be able to make money and successfully bring any third-party 5e products to market anymore.
And before the inevitable happens - no, Paizo and Pathfinder are not the replacement. PF2e is not a replacement for 5e, because if it was it would have replaced 5e. I don't particularly want to play Pathfinder. I think it's a worse game than D&D, and I'm not alone in that assessment. I would like to keep the game I'm invested in, as well as all the splendid third-party supplements and additions to that game we currently enjoy.
It's not about saving a billion-dollar corporation. It's about preserving the delightful game and situation we currently have, that all of you are trying your best to tear down because y'all didn't like the tone of Wizards' statement on the matter and decided to completely ignore its content because of that.
Yeah, everyone understands that they're desperately trying to save a billion dollar corporation that doesn't care about them in the slightest.
Here's the thing though, the rest of us are trying to do the opposite, so why would we leave??
Because THE OBJECTIVE is not "kill Wizards of the Coast". It never has been.
This is a strawman which makes everything that comes after it where you try to knock the strawman over completely irrelevent.
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The age of OGL is over. The Time of the ORC has come!
The moment that WotC declares OGL 1.0a "de-authorized", "revoked" or any such nonsense is the moment I release as much content as possible under OGL 1.0a and say, "Sue me WotC". OGL1.0a cannot be revoked. If thousands of us do it, the countersuit will be a class action suit.
Yeah, everyone understands that they're desperately trying to save a billion dollar corporation that doesn't care about them in the slightest.
Here's the thing though, the rest of us are trying to do the opposite, so why would we leave??
Because THE OBJECTIVE is not "kill Wizards of the Coast". It never has been.
THE OBJECTIVE is "preserve the thriving third-party 5e ecosystem and stop the rug from being unfairly pulled out from under the thousands of creatives that drive that ecosystem."
People running around screaming "DEATH TO WIZARDS OF THE COAST!", "KILL D&D FOREVER!", "BURN THE TRAITORS!", "RAWRGH RAWRGH DEATH MURDER MAYHEM!" are getting in the way of THE OBJECTIVE.
You. Are. Compromising. The. Mission.
You are attempting to destroy the thriving third-party ecosystem and to yank the rug out from underneath those thousands of creatives, exactly the same as OGL 1.1 was, by attempting to Anarchy and Fire Wizards to death. You are making yourself a problem, not part of the solution. What do you think will happen to the thriving third-party ecosystem we went to war to save in the first place if the "DEATH TO WOTSEE!" crowd gets their wish? If Wotsee goes D&D becomes a dead game, with no further updates or support, and nobody will be able to make money and successfully bring any third-party 5e products to market anymore.
And before the inevitable happens - no, Paizo and Pathfinder are not the replacement. PF2e is not a replacement for 5e, because if it was it would have replaced 5e. I don't particularly want to play Pathfinder. I think it's a worse game than D&D, and I'm not alone in that assessment. I would like to keep the game I'm invested in, as well as all the splendid third-party supplements and additions to that game we currently enjoy.
It's not about saving a billion-dollar corporation. It's about preserving the delightful game and situation we currently have, that all of you are trying your best to tear down because y'all didn't like the tone of Wizards' statement on the matter and decided to completely ignore its content because of that.
Stop. That.
I have yet to see anyone yell "KILL D&D FOREVER". Wizards deserves to burn but D&D doesn't, unfortunately it is going to suffer do to WotC's actions. No one is trying to destroy the third party ecosystem, we are trying to save it. You are confusing wanting to see WotC fail / be punished with D&D. People are saying D&D is going to die because of WotC strangling it, they see the writing on the wall. It may not die out entirely but if WotC decides to keep its current coarse it will lose pretty much all of its 3rd party content creators to other systems which in turn will most likely shatter D&D popularity as the playerbase splinters.
Yeah, everyone understands that they're desperately trying to save a billion dollar corporation that doesn't care about them in the slightest.
Here's the thing though, the rest of us are trying to do the opposite, so why would we leave??
Because THE OBJECTIVE is not "kill Wizards of the Coast". It never has been.
THE OBJECTIVE is "preserve the thriving third-party 5e ecosystem and stop the rug from being unfairly pulled out from under the thousands of creatives that drive that ecosystem."
People running around screaming "DEATH TO WIZARDS OF THE COAST!", "KILL D&D FOREVER!", "BURN THE TRAITORS!", "RAWRGH RAWRGH DEATH MURDER MAYHEM!" are getting in the way of THE OBJECTIVE.
You. Are. Compromising. The. Mission.
You are attempting to destroy the thriving third-party ecosystem and to yank the rug out from underneath those thousands of creatives, exactly the same as OGL 1.1 was, by attempting to Anarchy and Fire Wizards to death. You are making yourself a problem, not part of the solution. What do you think will happen to the thriving third-party ecosystem we went to war to save in the first place if the "DEATH TO WOTSEE!" crowd gets their wish? If Wotsee goes D&D becomes a dead game, with no further updates or support, and nobody will be able to make money and successfully bring any third-party 5e products to market anymore.
And before the inevitable happens - no, Paizo and Pathfinder are not the replacement. PF2e is not a replacement for 5e, because if it was it would have replaced 5e. I don't particularly want to play Pathfinder. I think it's a worse game than D&D, and I'm not alone in that assessment. I would like to keep the game I'm invested in, as well as all the splendid third-party supplements and additions to that game we currently enjoy.
It's not about saving a billion-dollar corporation. It's about preserving the delightful game and situation we currently have, that all of you are trying your best to tear down because y'all didn't like the tone of Wizards' statement on the matter and decided to completely ignore its content because of that.
Stop. That.
The people leaving the game in anger aren't damaging 5e. WotC did that.
You should be encouraging Hasbro to look at those people, to see the damage their decisions did, and stop before more damage is done. Get them to take notice.
Hasbro can turn around and walk away to stop the bleeding at literally any time.
SO a large contingent apparently still isn't getting the message that hate speech from dead former customers is nothing more than white noise to Hasbro and those in charge. They don't understand that walking out and stating they will never again spend anything on WotC product makes anything else they have to say irrelevant to their current plans and direction. They don't understand the notion of the boy who cried wolf. STILL up in arms, still on the attack but now it's against a proposed document we haven't even seen s DRAFT of, much less any details. Folks, the voices being listened to are those saying they are teetering on the edge of walking out for good and telling Hasbro they BETTER do it right the second time.
I disagree with the notion that you must be a subscriber to Dndbeyond in order to have a stake in this conversation. I realize from thier statement to their investors that is what Hasbro would like, for the equation to be this: 100 D&D Players = 100 Dndbeyond Subscriptions x $X.XX
But, I do agree here with you, they are absolutely willing to let go of X% in "fallout" over the changes they will have to make to support that new platform. I am sure they even have a guesstimate of that % fallout in their plans, and unless lost subscriptions GREATLY exceed that percentage, they will proceed with their plan, while saying "We listened to YOU!" In doing so, they will spur some growth in the 3rd party sector but are not threatened, since the combined revenue of the top 20 3rd party producers is a fraction of a percent of WoTC's revenue. So, sadly, the potential for future growth of the all digital platform is so great that some of us are now accepted as "dead customers."
And all of our wailing and gnashing of teeth will have little impact on the future of the OGL, because it is dead and WotC has no choice but to go forward with a new OGL, (with no real substantial changes,) to support the fully digital expression of Dungeons and Dragons into which they plan to direct the remaining herd of players.
Finally, you use the word "Draft," which I am reminded is a word that WotC used in a very insincere manner . The last "draft" was attached to a contract and a terms sheet and presented to about 20 companies with a 10 day deadline to sign, in exchange for a "sweetheart" deal, only 15% royalties instead of the 25% threatened in the new OGL. Again, this is clear case of a huge company using their power to bully the small companies with a scare tactic. And now people are understandably upset and see the bully for who they are, and it is not pleasant.
SO a large contingent apparently still isn't getting the message that hate speech from dead former customers is nothing more than white noise to Hasbro and those in charge.
With respect, equating the heated, vociferous, and completely justified public drubbing of a major company to *actual bigotry* against individuals would seem to indicate that you may not understand what hate speech is.
Furthermore, again with the suggestion that WOTC, a major corporation, won't care about the growing number of customers who don't intend to come back (or that it will stop caring that those customers are more than happy to yell at the top of their lungs about it).
Aside from the fact that this is a defeatist attitude, in what bizarro universe is it true?
This is not in any way how a publicly operated company conducts itself. Wizards/Hasbro *hate* what is happening right now and as illustrated by their recent statement, they will use whatever smoke and mirrors is necessary to wait things out until the community forgets so they can eventually proceed as originally planned.
Only the community isn't going to forget, not this time. WOTC isn't a small child. It isn't a helpless puppy. Let the beatings continue until the C-level knuckleheads finally understand that they need to right their course, and right it for good.
WOTC isn't a small child. It isn't a helpless puppy.
Here is another animal metaphor to add to this zoo: WotC is a 1000 lb Lion in a cage full of mice. There are about 20 mice in the cage. Those are the 3rd party producers, trying to survive on the scraps of the lions meals. Normally the Lion does not care much about the mice as he always eats until he is full. But if the meal begins to shrink, well, there will come a point where those mice will become a nuisance, and begin to look tasty as well. Oh and we, the consumers? Well, I will let you complete the metaphor.
SO a large contingent apparently still isn't getting the message that hate speech from dead former customers is nothing more than white noise to Hasbro and those in charge. They don't understand that walking out and stating they will never again spend anything on WotC product makes anything else they have to say irrelevant to their current plans and direction. They don't understand the notion of the boy who cried wolf. STILL up in arms, still on the attack but now it's against a proposed document we haven't even seen s DRAFT of, much less any details. Folks, the voices being listened to are those saying they are teetering on the edge of walking out for good and telling Hasbro they BETTER do it right the second time.
...
I would normally agree with you 100%. But here's the thing. They tried to do this in a very underhanded way (under NDA, not releasing details to the public, giving a week for companies to sign or lose all existing licensing, etc. OK. They could fix it by coming clean and announcing a new approach. but they didn't. They lied repeatedly in their very delayed statement, characterized it all as a misunderstanding, said some things that are misleading in the least, generally insulted the intelligence of everyone they were trying to mollify, and ended it by claiming it's a mutual victory because we said no. But look at what they ACTUALLY said. They are still going to change the OGL. They will exempt products that have already reached customers, but not something released the day after the new OGL and not products simply for One D&D. They won't use other creator's works without permission. But OGL 1.1 granted that permission for use without consent or royalty AFTER saying the creator owned it, so nothing changed there. Their entire response was damage control without addressing the substantive issues. How about the 'we can change it with 30 days notice for any reason whatsoever' in OGL 1.1? Did you see them address that concept? Remember, this started with a secret coercive attempt to change the license out of view of the public. Now we are supposed to trust that they won't use their power for evil. I mean seriously, are you even paying attention?
So, the narrative of 'See, they listened. Look at their response. They will fix this. TRUST THEM.' is either naïve or disingenuous. Stop trying to tell us to quiet down and sit in the corner where we won't bother anyone. If you don't want to see what we say, go to a different thread. If you are worried about vitriol, convince WotC not to make misleading and false statements that insult our intelligence. If you want things to return to the status quo, simply convince WotC to make OGL 1.0b with the tiny tweaks they might legitimately need and get rid of the corporate leadership that is pushing this current effort, because the OGL 1.1 concepts are still their intent. They want to let the uproar die down and repackage it.
TLDR: Don't try to convince the user community to be quiet and stop ricking WotC's boat. Convince WotC to do the right thing. That's how you can have peace and civility again.
I have yet to see anyone yell "KILL D&D FOREVER". ...
You haven't, eh? Haven't seen even one of the thronging legion of "**** WIZARDS AND **** D&D PATHFINDER IS THE FUTURE ORC FOREVER PAIZO WILL SAVE US ANYONE STILL PLAYING THIS DEAD SHIT GAME IS A ******* CORPO BOOTLICKER AND DESERVES TO DIE" posts that plagued the forum in the immediate aftermath of the announcement?
People who don't know how things work claim that D&D is too big, too important, too entrenched in the cultural zeitgeist to truly die. News flash: no it isn't. Something does not have to disappear and be forgotten to die. There will always be isolated splinters of people playing with twenty, thirty, fifty year old books, yes. Those splinters will not grow. They will not thrive. And they certainly won't have a diverse and thriving ecosystem of third-party publishers surrounding them. D&D can very easily wind up back in the spot it spent forty years stuck in prior to the invention of live plays - a niche hobby practiced in shameful secret by sweaty neckbeards everybody mocks.
I say once again. THE OBJECTIVE is "preserve the thriving third-party ecosystem that made 5e what it is today and protect the thousands of creatives that built that ecosystem." You're not going to do that by burning the game down to the waterline and jumping ship to the game's significantly less third-party friendly competitor. Whatever Paizo's opinion of Open Gaming, clearly Pathfinder sucks to develop content for or people would develop content for it.
Wizards dun ****ed up and deserves to take their medicine on this one. But you don't get someone to take their medicine so you can kill them. You get them to take their medicine so they get better. The rabid frenzy isn't accomplishing anything worthwhile. One can express their disapproval of Wizards' recent blunders without becoming the sort of screaming monkey nobody in a position to influence the issue is going to pay any attention to.
I have yet to see anyone yell "KILL D&D FOREVER". ...
You haven't, eh? Haven't seen even one of the thronging legion of "**** WIZARDS AND **** D&D PATHFINDER IS THE FUTURE ORC FOREVER PAIZO WILL SAVE US ANYONE STILL PLAYING THIS DEAD SHIT GAME IS A ****ING CORPO BOOTLICKER AND DESERVES TO DIE" posts that plagued the forum in the immediate aftermath of the announcement?
Cite the post or you have again constructed a strawman making your entire argument meaningless.
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The age of OGL is over. The Time of the ORC has come!
The moment that WotC declares OGL 1.0a "de-authorized", "revoked" or any such nonsense is the moment I release as much content as possible under OGL 1.0a and say, "Sue me WotC". OGL1.0a cannot be revoked. If thousands of us do it, the countersuit will be a class action suit.
Some are hurt because of the rabid hyena reference
Nah, not really. That's just what the playbook says they should say
Side A: (wave upon wave of toxicity) Side B: You guys are toxic Side A: HOW DARE YOU IMPUGN OUR HONOR
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Active characters:
Edoumiaond Willegume "Eddie" Podslee, Vegetanian scholar (College of Spirits bard) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator (Assassin rogue) Peter "the Pied Piper" Hausler, human con artist/remover of vermin (Circle of the Shepherd druid) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Cite the post or you have again constructed a strawman making your entire argument meaningless.
Literally every single one of your many, many posts in which you state the only reason you're here is to badmouth Wizards and anyone still on the DDB forums until your subscription runs out. That's a great place to start.
I say once again. THE OBJECTIVE is "preserve the thriving third-party ecosystem that made 5e what it is today and protect the thousands of creatives that built that ecosystem." You're not going to do that by burning the game down to the waterline and jumping ship to the game's significantly less third-party friendly competitor. Whatever Paizo's opinion of Open Gaming, clearly Pathfinder sucks to develop content for or people would develop content for it.
...
I think this is where our essential disagreement is. The objective is to protect the third party creators. 5e can stay or go down. it doesn't matter. if the third parties are allowed to thrive they can support other systems. D&D isn't a sacred cow. So WotC needs to fix this or we all get to enjoy barbeque.
Cite the post or you have again constructed a strawman making your entire argument meaningless.
Literally every single one of your many, many posts in which you state the only reason you're here is to badmouth Wizards and anyone still on the DDB forums until your subscription runs out. That's a great place to start.
I'm not here to mock you for staying. I AM STAYING. But I'm not giving them more of my money unless this is fixed. And I won't go away and stop calling them out, in the most direct terms, for their bad actions and obvious ill intent. I'm going to be loud and ever present until they fix it or until they shut down DDB. And if they open it up again, I will come back to be equally loud. This isn't going away. I will make it a sport to persecute WotC management and their products until Hasbro has to step in to stabilize the stock price.
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I'm afraid that I don't understand the drive of your question here. Can you please restate?
Who exactly is forcing you to read these comments?? Seems like this is an issue you could handle just by turning away...
SO a large contingent apparently still isn't getting the message that hate speech from dead former customers is nothing more than white noise to Hasbro and those in charge. They don't understand that walking out and stating they will never again spend anything on WotC product makes anything else they have to say irrelevant to their current plans and direction. They don't understand the notion of the boy who cried wolf. STILL up in arms, still on the attack but now it's against a proposed document we haven't even seen s DRAFT of, much less any details. Folks, the voices being listened to are those saying they are teetering on the edge of walking out for good and telling Hasbro they BETTER do it right the second time.
Some are hurt because of the rabid hyena reference, while calling WotC and Hosbro the devil incarnate, and evil tot he core. Hypocrisy anyone? There seems to be a fair bit available to go around.
the one question about why PF doesn't have a lion's share of the industry is a legitimate one. My son was/is into PF a bit and he plays a lot more D&D than PF, as do most of the groups and people he plays with. I think in the end, it's because while PF is an alternative option, D&D seems to "so it better" in enough areas to hold control of the market. While that is NOT a reason to support the BS they tried to spin, it IS reason to try and keep that brand alive, even if it's under some strict "you better....." guidelines from the community.
As a community, we actually have managed to grab the ear of a multi-billion dollar company. That is no small feat and to see a bunch of folks who cling to their rage like some kind of lifeline continue to spew vitriol about a company who HAS actually started to listen, is sad. I think of it from a parental perspective, and when we give in to our vocal child, and they STILL rant, rage and throw tantrums, we know, the NEXT time they start their hissy fit, we can just ignore them, because apparently NOTHING is good enough to heal their poor wounded feelings, so why bother trying. Let's not UNdo what we've managed to do. Let's keep the axe poised, as we wait for the formal release of the new license. If they screw THAT up, too, then ok, OFF WITH THEIR HEADS as it were.
Talk to your Players. Talk to your DM. If more people used this advice, there would be 24.74% fewer threads on Tactics, Rules and DM discussions.
If this is true, and this speech is meaningless, why are people so desperate to suppress it?
If Hasbro isn't paying attention to why they're experiencing a customer exodus - one which may continue over time, and potentially accelerate as word spreads - they deserve what follows.
They need to pay attention to people leaving forever if they want to take action to stop the bleeding. They should not be in customer retention mode at the moment (where they can safely ignore the odd 'leaving forever' comment), they should be in full PR/Brand damage control mode. Those things require different priorities, and different information.
Not hurt, but calling it out for the blatant trolling that it is.
The age of OGL is over. The Time of the ORC has come!
The moment that WotC declares OGL 1.0a "de-authorized", "revoked" or any such nonsense is the moment I release as much content as possible under OGL 1.0a and say, "Sue me WotC". OGL1.0a cannot be revoked. If thousands of us do it, the countersuit will be a class action suit.
Because THE OBJECTIVE is not "kill Wizards of the Coast". It never has been.
THE OBJECTIVE is "preserve the thriving third-party 5e ecosystem and stop the rug from being unfairly pulled out from under the thousands of creatives that drive that ecosystem."
People running around screaming "DEATH TO WIZARDS OF THE COAST!", "KILL D&D FOREVER!", "BURN THE TRAITORS!", "RAWRGH RAWRGH DEATH MURDER MAYHEM!" are getting in the way of THE OBJECTIVE.
You. Are. Compromising. The. Mission.
You are attempting to destroy the thriving third-party ecosystem and to yank the rug out from underneath those thousands of creatives, exactly the same as OGL 1.1 was, by attempting to Anarchy and Fire Wizards to death. You are making yourself a problem, not part of the solution. What do you think will happen to the thriving third-party ecosystem we went to war to save in the first place if the "DEATH TO WOTSEE!" crowd gets their wish? If Wotsee goes D&D becomes a dead game, with no further updates or support, and nobody will be able to make money and successfully bring any third-party 5e products to market anymore.
And before the inevitable happens - no, Paizo and Pathfinder are not the replacement. PF2e is not a replacement for 5e, because if it was it would have replaced 5e. I don't particularly want to play Pathfinder. I think it's a worse game than D&D, and I'm not alone in that assessment. I would like to keep the game I'm invested in, as well as all the splendid third-party supplements and additions to that game we currently enjoy.
It's not about saving a billion-dollar corporation. It's about preserving the delightful game and situation we currently have, that all of you are trying your best to tear down because y'all didn't like the tone of Wizards' statement on the matter and decided to completely ignore its content because of that.
Stop. That.
Please do not contact or message me.
This is a strawman which makes everything that comes after it where you try to knock the strawman over completely irrelevent.
The age of OGL is over. The Time of the ORC has come!
The moment that WotC declares OGL 1.0a "de-authorized", "revoked" or any such nonsense is the moment I release as much content as possible under OGL 1.0a and say, "Sue me WotC". OGL1.0a cannot be revoked. If thousands of us do it, the countersuit will be a class action suit.
I have yet to see anyone yell "KILL D&D FOREVER". Wizards deserves to burn but D&D doesn't, unfortunately it is going to suffer do to WotC's actions. No one is trying to destroy the third party ecosystem, we are trying to save it. You are confusing wanting to see WotC fail / be punished with D&D. People are saying D&D is going to die because of WotC strangling it, they see the writing on the wall. It may not die out entirely but if WotC decides to keep its current coarse it will lose pretty much all of its 3rd party content creators to other systems which in turn will most likely shatter D&D popularity as the playerbase splinters.
The people leaving the game in anger aren't damaging 5e. WotC did that.
You should be encouraging Hasbro to look at those people, to see the damage their decisions did, and stop before more damage is done. Get them to take notice.
Hasbro can turn around and walk away to stop the bleeding at literally any time.
I disagree with the notion that you must be a subscriber to Dndbeyond in order to have a stake in this conversation. I realize from thier statement to their investors that is what Hasbro would like, for the equation to be this:
100 D&D Players = 100 Dndbeyond Subscriptions x $X.XX
But, I do agree here with you, they are absolutely willing to let go of X% in "fallout" over the changes they will have to make to support that new platform. I am sure they even have a guesstimate of that % fallout in their plans, and unless lost subscriptions GREATLY exceed that percentage, they will proceed with their plan, while saying "We listened to YOU!"
In doing so, they will spur some growth in the 3rd party sector but are not threatened, since the combined revenue of the top 20 3rd party producers is a fraction of a percent of WoTC's revenue. So, sadly, the potential for future growth of the all digital platform is so great that some of us are now accepted as "dead customers."
And all of our wailing and gnashing of teeth will have little impact on the future of the OGL, because it is dead and WotC has no choice but to go forward with a new OGL, (with no real substantial changes,) to support the fully digital expression of Dungeons and Dragons into which they plan to direct the remaining herd of players.
Finally, you use the word "Draft," which I am reminded is a word that WotC used in a very insincere manner . The last "draft" was attached to a contract and a terms sheet and presented to about 20 companies with a 10 day deadline to sign, in exchange for a "sweetheart" deal, only 15% royalties instead of the 25% threatened in the new OGL.
Again, this is clear case of a huge company using their power to bully the small companies with a scare tactic. And now people are understandably upset and see the bully for who they are, and it is not pleasant.
With respect, equating the heated, vociferous, and completely justified public drubbing of a major company to *actual bigotry* against individuals would seem to indicate that you may not understand what hate speech is.
Furthermore, again with the suggestion that WOTC, a major corporation, won't care about the growing number of customers who don't intend to come back (or that it will stop caring that those customers are more than happy to yell at the top of their lungs about it).
Aside from the fact that this is a defeatist attitude, in what bizarro universe is it true?
This is not in any way how a publicly operated company conducts itself. Wizards/Hasbro *hate* what is happening right now and as illustrated by their recent statement, they will use whatever smoke and mirrors is necessary to wait things out until the community forgets so they can eventually proceed as originally planned.
Only the community isn't going to forget, not this time. WOTC isn't a small child. It isn't a helpless puppy. Let the beatings continue until the C-level knuckleheads finally understand that they need to right their course, and right it for good.
This is a straw man argument. There is no way anyone is going to "kill" WotC. Try to parse the hyperbole better.
Here is another animal metaphor to add to this zoo:
WotC is a 1000 lb Lion in a cage full of mice. There are about 20 mice in the cage. Those are the 3rd party producers, trying to survive on the scraps of the lions meals.
Normally the Lion does not care much about the mice as he always eats until he is full. But if the meal begins to shrink, well, there will come a point where those mice will become a nuisance, and begin to look tasty as well.
Oh and we, the consumers? Well, I will let you complete the metaphor.
I would normally agree with you 100%. But here's the thing. They tried to do this in a very underhanded way (under NDA, not releasing details to the public, giving a week for companies to sign or lose all existing licensing, etc. OK. They could fix it by coming clean and announcing a new approach. but they didn't. They lied repeatedly in their very delayed statement, characterized it all as a misunderstanding, said some things that are misleading in the least, generally insulted the intelligence of everyone they were trying to mollify, and ended it by claiming it's a mutual victory because we said no. But look at what they ACTUALLY said. They are still going to change the OGL. They will exempt products that have already reached customers, but not something released the day after the new OGL and not products simply for One D&D. They won't use other creator's works without permission. But OGL 1.1 granted that permission for use without consent or royalty AFTER saying the creator owned it, so nothing changed there. Their entire response was damage control without addressing the substantive issues. How about the 'we can change it with 30 days notice for any reason whatsoever' in OGL 1.1? Did you see them address that concept? Remember, this started with a secret coercive attempt to change the license out of view of the public. Now we are supposed to trust that they won't use their power for evil. I mean seriously, are you even paying attention?
So, the narrative of 'See, they listened. Look at their response. They will fix this. TRUST THEM.' is either naïve or disingenuous. Stop trying to tell us to quiet down and sit in the corner where we won't bother anyone. If you don't want to see what we say, go to a different thread. If you are worried about vitriol, convince WotC not to make misleading and false statements that insult our intelligence. If you want things to return to the status quo, simply convince WotC to make OGL 1.0b with the tiny tweaks they might legitimately need and get rid of the corporate leadership that is pushing this current effort, because the OGL 1.1 concepts are still their intent. They want to let the uproar die down and repackage it.
TLDR: Don't try to convince the user community to be quiet and stop ricking WotC's boat. Convince WotC to do the right thing. That's how you can have peace and civility again.
You haven't, eh? Haven't seen even one of the thronging legion of "**** WIZARDS AND **** D&D PATHFINDER IS THE FUTURE ORC FOREVER PAIZO WILL SAVE US ANYONE STILL PLAYING THIS DEAD SHIT GAME IS A ******* CORPO BOOTLICKER AND DESERVES TO DIE" posts that plagued the forum in the immediate aftermath of the announcement?
People who don't know how things work claim that D&D is too big, too important, too entrenched in the cultural zeitgeist to truly die. News flash: no it isn't. Something does not have to disappear and be forgotten to die. There will always be isolated splinters of people playing with twenty, thirty, fifty year old books, yes. Those splinters will not grow. They will not thrive. And they certainly won't have a diverse and thriving ecosystem of third-party publishers surrounding them. D&D can very easily wind up back in the spot it spent forty years stuck in prior to the invention of live plays - a niche hobby practiced in shameful secret by sweaty neckbeards everybody mocks.
I say once again. THE OBJECTIVE is "preserve the thriving third-party ecosystem that made 5e what it is today and protect the thousands of creatives that built that ecosystem." You're not going to do that by burning the game down to the waterline and jumping ship to the game's significantly less third-party friendly competitor. Whatever Paizo's opinion of Open Gaming, clearly Pathfinder sucks to develop content for or people would develop content for it.
Wizards dun ****ed up and deserves to take their medicine on this one. But you don't get someone to take their medicine so you can kill them. You get them to take their medicine so they get better. The rabid frenzy isn't accomplishing anything worthwhile. One can express their disapproval of Wizards' recent blunders without becoming the sort of screaming monkey nobody in a position to influence the issue is going to pay any attention to.
Please do not contact or message me.
Cite the post or you have again constructed a strawman making your entire argument meaningless.
The age of OGL is over. The Time of the ORC has come!
The moment that WotC declares OGL 1.0a "de-authorized", "revoked" or any such nonsense is the moment I release as much content as possible under OGL 1.0a and say, "Sue me WotC". OGL1.0a cannot be revoked. If thousands of us do it, the countersuit will be a class action suit.
Doesn't mean we cannot try. Hope and light!
Nah, not really. That's just what the playbook says they should say
Side A: (wave upon wave of toxicity)
Side B: You guys are toxic
Side A: HOW DARE YOU IMPUGN OUR HONOR
Active characters:
Edoumiaond Willegume "Eddie" Podslee, Vegetanian scholar (College of Spirits bard)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator (Assassin rogue)
Peter "the Pied Piper" Hausler, human con artist/remover of vermin (Circle of the Shepherd druid)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Literally every single one of your many, many posts in which you state the only reason you're here is to badmouth Wizards and anyone still on the DDB forums until your subscription runs out. That's a great place to start.
Please do not contact or message me.
I think this is where our essential disagreement is. The objective is to protect the third party creators. 5e can stay or go down. it doesn't matter. if the third parties are allowed to thrive they can support other systems. D&D isn't a sacred cow. So WotC needs to fix this or we all get to enjoy barbeque.
I'm not here to mock you for staying. I AM STAYING. But I'm not giving them more of my money unless this is fixed. And I won't go away and stop calling them out, in the most direct terms, for their bad actions and obvious ill intent. I'm going to be loud and ever present until they fix it or until they shut down DDB. And if they open it up again, I will come back to be equally loud. This isn't going away. I will make it a sport to persecute WotC management and their products until Hasbro has to step in to stabilize the stock price.