I have seen people on Facebook say the objective is to kill WotC. I have seen them say you can't play D&D ever again unless you want WotC to succeed because even if you don't buy anything ever again WotC wins because their game is being played and talked about. I have seen people being called stupid and on the side of evil if they don't switch to Pathfinder RIGHT NOW! So yes, for a part of the fanbase the objective very much is to burn WotC to the ground and D&D with it. All the while, they completely forget that the entire mess was BECAUSE OF THE THIRD PARTY CREATORS OF 5E! The actual players of D&D were only going to be affected once third party creators close their doors due to not being able to pay revenue and other unfair requests. Well guess what, those 3rd party creators won't have to pay revenue, but if we listen to the folks with torches and pitchforks THEY WON'T SELL A DAMN THING ANYWAY! ORC is months or years away, it took Paizo a year and a half to publish Pathfinder and all they did was slap some paint on 3.5. A new system by a dozen companies will take at least that long to create, so 3PP folk are out of a job if D&D goes under (it won't, but many really want it to).
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DM for life by choice, biggest fan of D&D specifically.
I have yet to see anyone yell "KILL D&D FOREVER". ...
You haven't, eh? Haven't seen even one of the thronging legion of "**** WIZARDS AND **** D&D PATHFINDER IS THE FUTURE ORC FOREVER PAIZO WILL SAVE US ANYONE STILL PLAYING THIS DEAD SHIT GAME IS A ****ING CORPO BOOTLICKER AND DESERVES TO DIE" posts that plagued the forum in the immediate aftermath of the announcement?
People who don't know how things work claim that D&D is too big, too important, too entrenched in the cultural zeitgeist to truly die. News flash: no it isn't. Something does not have to disappear and be forgotten to die. There will always be isolated splinters of people playing with twenty, thirty, fifty year old books, yes. Those splinters will not grow. They will not thrive. And they certainly won't have a diverse and thriving ecosystem of third-party publishers surrounding them. D&D can very easily wind up back in the spot it spent forty years stuck in prior to the invention of live plays - a niche hobby practiced in shameful secret by sweaty neckbeards everybody mocks.
I say once again. THE OBJECTIVE is "preserve the thriving third-party ecosystem that made 5e what it is today and protect the thousands of creatives that built that ecosystem." You're not going to do that by burning the game down to the waterline and jumping ship to the game's significantly less third-party friendly competitor. Whatever Paizo's opinion of Open Gaming, clearly Pathfinder sucks to develop content for or people would develop content for it.
Wizards dun ****ed up and deserves to take their medicine on this one. But you don't get someone to take their medicine so you can kill them. You get them to take their medicine so they get better. The rabid frenzy isn't accomplishing anything worthwhile. One can express their disapproval of Wizards' recent blunders without becoming the sort of screaming monkey nobody in a position to influence the issue is going to pay any attention to.
Perhaps I have not dug enough, but no, I have not. I have seen people being accused of being corporate boot-lickers for taking a more moderate stance. I have seen people accuse others of being toxic for professing their opinions. But not once have I seen people wanting to happily dance on D&D's corpse, all the posts I have seen about that has been more of a tone of "Its better to let it fade then allow it to become something hated". Not one person I have found has been happy about the prospect of D&D dying but those saying it will die are those fearing that WotC will ruin a loved brand/game. At the end of the day we are here because we love D&D, and that is why we are so loud and vocal about D&D dying.
On the medicine thing. I agree except WotC hasn't learned, their announcement was dishonest and condescending. They fully intend on going full steam ahead and are trying to make us think that we are on the same side. They aim to take money wherever they think they can and until that mentality changes they will get the whipping they deserve.
I would love to see WotC come around, and try to be part of the community and supportive of it again. The hobby is better for having a decent edition of DnD in it - it's where I'd previously have directed folks looking for an entry level, simple game.
Their initial response made it clear they aren't going to do so though unless the community makes it hurt.
So every canceled sub is a win. Everyone person they can see rage quiting and pledging to bring as many other people with them is a win. And every person politely saying they're concerned and intend to avoid future purchases until WotC comes around is a win.
Theyre all wins, because they all mean pain for a profit driven, publicly owned company. And they've made it clear that's the language the community is going to have to speak to get them to back down.
Cite the post or you have again constructed a strawman making your entire argument meaningless.
Literally every single one of your many, many posts in which you state the only reason you're here is to badmouth Wizards and anyone still on the DDB forums until your subscription runs out. That's a great place to start.
Let me remind you of the actual comparison you made:
"**** WIZARDS AND **** D&D PATHFINDER IS THE FUTURE ORC FOREVER PAIZO WILL SAVE US ANYONE STILL PLAYING THIS DEAD SHIT GAME IS A ****ING CORPO BOOTLICKER AND DESERVES TO DIE"
That's what you said. I second that I have yet to see anyone conducting themselves in the manner that you suggest, here or anywhere else. If they did, such posts were clearly outliers and should be disregarded.
What isn't helpful is using straw man examples as some kind of back-door means to suggest that WOTC needs a break now. WOTC does not deserve our sympathy, nor our understanding (beyond a clinical understanding of why they acted as they did), nor do they deserve a break. If D&D fails now, it will be through fault of their own hubris. They still have the power to right the ship. Until they do, they deserve every amount of flak they get.
Broadly, it just aggravates me how it seems like some folks are intent on blowing things up over this regardless of the actual consequence or situation. The issue in this entire situation is NOT DND the game or the creatives, its a couple of corporate leaders who have inexplicably gained and are retaining power regardless of what their actions are causing to everyone else. Criticism needs to be nuanced and our responses have to be nuanced as well otherwise you're just catching people in the crossfire and saying thats just part of this situation when its not. Folks need to stop spamming and harassing creatives and employees on social media thats messed up on so many levels same goes for content creators sticking with 5E maybe they just like the game and their worlds/works you know? Maybe they just aren't a fan of the mechanical aspects of Pathfinder and/or they can recognize its okay to play multiple systems. No boycotting the DND movie will not miraculously get the message across to the corporate leaders you'd just be hurting the creatives across numerous mediums for something that they have no say or control over and telling movie executives that we dont want to see these broad and sprawling tabletop setting and ideas adapted. If you want to play another system or try something out by all means do so theres a lot of other neat systems out there you could always do that. Implying that people who still want to play and create content for 5e are traitors or whatever is messed up on so many levels .Yurei1453 is completely right in every respect on this(also hi Yurei1453 I've really enjoyed your posts in the past and this inspired me to make a post on this topic as a longtime longtime lurker on DNDBeyond).
It really makes me sad and angry at a lot of levels how much venom folks are spewing at the moment and talk about "killing DND" and "Paizo the GOAT" and "WOTC and anyone who supports them are scum". Isn't the entire point of this to create a better environment for everyone in spite of the insanity that the corporate leaders are saying? Aren't we supposed to be pushing for a bigger and brighter and better DND in spite of the corporate leaders? DND is so so important to me on so many levels and has allowed me to be myself and explore aspects of myself and create worlds and immerse people in them and be a good DM and creator and even evolve the way I think about things. And I know thats a shared experience for a lot of folks all over on varying levels and across time as well. What is the endgame on this do you folks want to resolve the OGL issue or do you want to kill DND? That should hopefully be a pretty easy decision. The latter does no good for anyone and instead just hurts people across the board on a lot of levels. We need to be better in how we address this because its the right thing to do for all parties and for our future as players, and for all those tabletop players and creatives of the future. Lets work together on making a brighter and better and bigger DND for everyone where everyone can feel heard and supported and included.
I have yet to see anyone yell "KILL D&D FOREVER". ...
One can express their disapproval of Wizards' recent blunders without becoming the sort of screaming monkey nobody in a position to influence the issue is going to pay any attention to.
"screaming monkey" is it now? Can you not make a valid point without employing insulting and demeaning language. What is next, "subhuman?"
Unbelievably inappropriate like much of this thread. I am truly disgusted by the patronizing tone being employed here and throughout this entire thread. The thread's title is an insult, the original post is chock with a patronizing, condescending tone, buttressed by colorful hyperbole intended to mute the voices of those with whom you disagree. In addition, as others have pointed out, these arguments rely again and again on straw man and other logical fallacies. Calling people animals is simply insulting and does not bolster your arguments.
You seem to be well intentioned and in earnest, and perhaps buried in all of this you do have a valid point for consideration, but your delivery really suffers from the errors I have pointed out. Hope and light to you!
Obviously WotC/Hasbro management sees the game system being open as a problem, not as a driving force for its reach and development. There is no doubt anymore that the 1.1 leak was accurate and it is not hard to see that WotC would have gotten their way with that it would have destroyed what people usually refere to as the community. That is not an accident, but that was and very likely still is the strategy. The design team within WotC suposedly only was informed by management after the leak happened. They were also supposed to be cornered.
The new strategy that the WotC CEO referred to at the investor podcast ("fireside chat") does not need the community. It would do much better without 3rd parties as a closed ecosystem pretty much monopolizing the whole TTRPG market, TTRPG no longer being the main thing anyways. This has to be stopped before it still could succeed. Luckily the leakers made the community aware quite a bit before the OneDnD VTT is available, let alone an ecosystem of things pulling a new kind of customers in, like video games, mobile games, movies, TV series, ...
WotC can have their new world, but not exclusively having killed all those that made them the vastly dominant player that they have become, after DnD once was not much more than all the others that died -- while the OGL made the community grow to what it is, and only with that made DnD the IP that it is. Before the attempt to f... over everyone with 1.1 I think there would have been a path to something that would have allowed WotC to get some of the money from 3rd parties. Now all doubts are gone: WotC is not a partner, but the enemy. They need to be forced to do the right thing, and destroyed if they don't. The path still open to WotC is making 2.0 a 1.0a with irrevocable added and including both 5e and 6e as open game content. Much short of it there can only be war.
Broadly, it just aggravates me how it seems like some folks are intent on blowing things up over this regardless of the actual consequence or situation. The issue in this entire situation is NOT DND the game or the creatives, its a couple of corporate leaders who have inexplicably gained and are retaining power regardless of what their actions are causing to everyone else. Criticism needs to be nuanced and our responses have to be nuanced as well otherwise you're just catching people in the crossfire and saying thats just part of this situation when its not. Folks need to stop spamming and harassing creatives and employees on social media thats messed up on so many levels same goes for content creators sticking with 5E maybe they just like the game and their worlds/works you know? Maybe they just aren't a fan of the mechanical aspects of Pathfinder and/or they can recognize its okay to play multiple systems. No boycotting the DND movie will not miraculously get the message across to the corporate leaders you'd just be hurting the creatives across numerous mediums for something that they have no say or control over and telling movie executives that we dont want to see these broad and sprawling tabletop setting and ideas adapted. If you want to play another system or try something out by all means do so theres a lot of other neat systems out there you could always do that. Implying that people who still want to play and create content for 5e are traitors or whatever is messed up on so many levels .Yurei1453 is completely right in every respect on this(also hi Yurei1453 I've really enjoyed your posts in the past and this inspired me to make a post on this topic as a longtime longtime lurker on DNDBeyond).
It really makes me sad and angry at a lot of levels how much venom folks are spewing at the moment and talk about "killing DND" and "Paizo the GOAT" and "WOTC and anyone who supports them are scum". Isn't the entire point of this to create a better environment for everyone in spite of the insanity that the corporate leaders are saying? Aren't we supposed to be pushing for a bigger and brighter and better DND in spite of the corporate leaders? DND is so so important to me on so many levels and has allowed me to be myself and explore aspects of myself and create worlds and immerse people in them and be a good DM and creator and even evolve the way I think about things. And I know thats a shared experience for a lot of folks all over on varying levels and across time as well. What is the endgame on this do you folks want to resolve the OGL issue or do you want to kill DND? That should hopefully be a pretty easy decision. The latter does no good for anyone and instead just hurts people across the board on a lot of levels. We need to be better in how we address this because its the right thing to do for all parties and for our future as players, and for all those tabletop players and creatives of the future. Lets work together on making a brighter and better and bigger DND for everyone where everyone can feel heard and supported and included.
I think what you are missing is that the 3PP and players have drawn a line in the sand. Either WotC keeps OGL 1.0 or signs the ORC (seems to be two camps for this) or we WILL watch the bonfire that is D&D currently, not that we are happy about it if it comes to that. Make no mistake, D&D may be owned by WotC but WE made the game what it is. Our campaigns, our homebrew, our dedication. WotC was supposed to be the stewards, yet they think of themselves as the jailors. D&D didn't explode because of the great and glorious Tasha's or Xanathar's. It was made by groups like Critical Role, 3PP, Homebrew communities, average players pulling in new people.
... this insane clown show ... this troop of baboons, ...
Yurei, this is just from your early posts here but the venom you speak with raises the question of the amount of vitriol that spews from you. Please treat people with respect. You are taking people who are hurting and feeling betrayed and you are kicking them in the teeth.
You speak of wanting people not to be "hateful". Please consider your own repetitively abusive behavior.
Some are hurt because of the rabid hyena reference
Nah, not really. That's just what the playbook says they should say
Side A: (wave upon wave of toxicity) Side B: You guys are toxic Side A: HOW DARE YOU IMPUGN OUR HONOR
I think you got that twisted:
Side A: STOP BEING TOXIC Side B: We aren't being toxic, we're angry Side A: HOW DARE YOU IMPUGN OUR HONOR
No, I had it right the first time
Side A's had sock puppets supporting them, has folks in their ranks calling anyone who disagrees with them corporate bootlickers and worse, has flat out made things up ("Hasbro is going to steal all your homebrew and destroy Critical Role!") to try and get folks to join the cause, and just generally attracted a whole bunch of asshats I already had set to Ignore on this forum because they thought WOTC was too woke
If that's who you want to side with, you don't get to complain when other people point out the choice you've made
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Edoumiaond Willegume "Eddie" Podslee, Vegetanian scholar (College of Spirits bard) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator (Assassin rogue) Peter "the Pied Piper" Hausler, human con artist/remover of vermin (Circle of the Shepherd druid) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
The issue is that there IS a wide swathe of folks across the board when it comes to social media who are being toxic and reductive and destructive for the sake of it regardless of the situation or nuance(Which spoilers is contrary to their stated goals and only serves to hurt things and people) . Theres a fundamental difference between people who are communicating their legitimate anger with corporate leaders over the OGL/underhanded leadership tactics/making the personal choice to cancel their subscription or play another game in lieu of 5e and the people who are mindlessly attacking everyone and everything and talking about killing DND and how if you are playing DND you are a traitor etc . I(probably we but i dont want to presume for the collective) dont have any issues with the former thats your call and your personal choice and i understand the frustration with the OGL but i have a lot of issues with the toxicity and destruction being wrought by the latter. I promise that we are not jumping at shadows nor do we have any issues with you.
Hm. People want me to moderate my words, avoid incendiary or evocative language? They want me to stop using simile or comparison, to speak as mildly as I can with maximum care taken to sound professional, empathetic, and detached from the situation?
Hmm. People want me to use Corpospeak. How curious, given how much people profess to despise Corpospeak from Wizards.
Some are hurt because of the rabid hyena reference
Nah, not really. That's just what the playbook says they should say
Side A: (wave upon wave of toxicity) Side B: You guys are toxic Side A: HOW DARE YOU IMPUGN OUR HONOR
I think you got that twisted:
Side A: STOP BEING TOXIC Side B: We aren't being toxic, we're angry Side A: HOW DARE YOU IMPUGN OUR HONOR
No, I had it right the first time
Side A's had sock puppets supporting them, has folks in their ranks calling anyone who disagrees with them corporate bootlickers and worse, has flat out made things up ("Hasbro is going to steal all your homebrew and destroy Critical Role!") to try and get folks to join the cause, and just generally attracted a whole bunch of asshats I already had set to Ignore on this forum because they thought WOTC was too woke
If that's who you want to side with, you don't get to complain when other people point out the choice you've made
They may not have intended to "steal" anything BUT it did have a provision in the OGL 1.1 that would have allowed them to abuse it in such a way later if they felt like it. How many lawyers and layers of approval did it have to go through and it was still kept. Them saying it "would never have crossed our minds" is dubious at best and dishonest at worst. They knew what they were doing.
... this insane clown show ... this troop of baboons, ...
Yurei, this is just from your early posts here but the venom you speak with raises the question of the amount of vitriol that spews from you. Please treat people with respect. You are taking people who are hurting and feeling betrayed and you are kicking them in the teeth.
You speak of wanting people not to be "hateful". Please consider your own repetitively abusive behavior.
Considering the lack of common sense in a large part of the community, I don't blame Yurei for being angry that what was a meaningful protest turned in a large part into a counterproductive anti D&D movement.
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DM for life by choice, biggest fan of D&D specifically.
I was wondering what WotC would do if someone said they had to pay a 25% fee to publish their stuff. I think they would have some push back on whoever was asking for a cut. IMHO there is a huge difference in "pharma bro" business plans and people working together to make a profitable future plans. I do think it is a challenging business cycle right now and I question if some companies can afford a 25% hit (if they were paying zero before) or even a 10% increase.
I do understand that there are a fair number of 3rd party people wrapped up in 5e and if it suddenly had a big drop in popularity it would affect a whole bunch of people. I hope that does not happen but at times, companies make mistakes and those mistakes can have vast consequences going forward.
So I can understand customers points of view as well as I can understand WotC trying to be compensated for new ways of using D&D to make money (besides selling books, other products, running tournaments, etc), but I can say I think it is a huge mess that no one needs right now.
Hm. People want me to moderate my words, avoid incendiary or evocative language? They want me to stop using simile or comparison, to speak as mildly as I can with maximum care taken to sound professional, empathetic, and detached from the situation?
Hmm. People want me to use Corpospeak. How curious, given how much people profess to despise Corpospeak from Wizards.
LMAO!! Right, because refraining from calling people "rabid hyenas" is the equivalent of using Corpospeak. That totally makes sense...
asshats I already had set to Ignore on this forum because they thought WOTC was too woke
If you really think that you might want to ask yourself how that could be a driving force behind 1.1 when WotC realses Hodozee while 3rd parties do have whole campaigns and settings especially tailored for the diversity that WotC couldn't even cater to if they wanted it with all their might -- as indeed there is toxicity that they have to consider around here. Maybe actually read 1.1. One needs a really vivid imagination to see that part being the core -- or even of any importance to them. And listening to the "fireside chat" might help understanding where we are, too. Or just listen to one of the several good videos about that, like the interview Roll for Combat had with the author of the phd thesis about the OGL, or several others. Yes, there is toxicity in the community. No, it has nothing to do with WotC trying to get rid of the OGL (1.1 was not an open license at all).
Some are hurt because of the rabid hyena reference
Nah, not really. That's just what the playbook says they should say
Side A: (wave upon wave of toxicity) Side B: You guys are toxic Side A: HOW DARE YOU IMPUGN OUR HONOR
I think you got that twisted:
Side A: STOP BEING TOXIC Side B: We aren't being toxic, we're angry Side A: HOW DARE YOU IMPUGN OUR HONOR
No, I had it right the first time
Side A's had sock puppets supporting them, has folks in their ranks calling anyone who disagrees with them corporate bootlickers and worse, has flat out made things up ("Hasbro is going to steal all your homebrew and destroy Critical Role!") to try and get folks to join the cause, and just generally attracted a whole bunch of asshats I already had set to Ignore on this forum because they thought WOTC was too woke
If that's who you want to side with, you don't get to complain when other people point out the choice you've made
But... Hasbro literally WAS going to steal all the homebrew... at least in a manner of speaking. But yes, the people who didn't like WOTC in the first place still don't like them. I mean, yeah. That doesn't invalidate the current criticism of WOTC though.
... this insane clown show ... this troop of baboons, ...
Yurei, this is just from your early posts here but the venom you speak with raises the question of the amount of vitriol that spews from you. Please treat people with respect. You are taking people who are hurting and feeling betrayed and you are kicking them in the teeth.
You speak of wanting people not to be "hateful". Please consider your own repetitively abusive behavior.
Considering the lack of common sense in a large part of the community, I don't blame Yurei for being angry that what was a meaningful protest turned in a large part into a counterproductive anti D&D movement.
But you do have to ask internally why it has become a sort of Quasi-anti D&D movement. Because right now you can't have D&D without WotC and they have just shown they will happily slice up D&D to make a quick extra few million. So any protests against WotC is a protest against D&D. It's like having to put down your zombified mother. You love her and want to find a cure for her but time is running out, and when it does.... yeah.
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I have seen people on Facebook say the objective is to kill WotC. I have seen them say you can't play D&D ever again unless you want WotC to succeed because even if you don't buy anything ever again WotC wins because their game is being played and talked about. I have seen people being called stupid and on the side of evil if they don't switch to Pathfinder RIGHT NOW! So yes, for a part of the fanbase the objective very much is to burn WotC to the ground and D&D with it. All the while, they completely forget that the entire mess was BECAUSE OF THE THIRD PARTY CREATORS OF 5E! The actual players of D&D were only going to be affected once third party creators close their doors due to not being able to pay revenue and other unfair requests. Well guess what, those 3rd party creators won't have to pay revenue, but if we listen to the folks with torches and pitchforks THEY WON'T SELL A DAMN THING ANYWAY! ORC is months or years away, it took Paizo a year and a half to publish Pathfinder and all they did was slap some paint on 3.5. A new system by a dozen companies will take at least that long to create, so 3PP folk are out of a job if D&D goes under (it won't, but many really want it to).
DM for life by choice, biggest fan of D&D specifically.
Perhaps I have not dug enough, but no, I have not. I have seen people being accused of being corporate boot-lickers for taking a more moderate stance. I have seen people accuse others of being toxic for professing their opinions. But not once have I seen people wanting to happily dance on D&D's corpse, all the posts I have seen about that has been more of a tone of "Its better to let it fade then allow it to become something hated". Not one person I have found has been happy about the prospect of D&D dying but those saying it will die are those fearing that WotC will ruin a loved brand/game. At the end of the day we are here because we love D&D, and that is why we are so loud and vocal about D&D dying.
On the medicine thing. I agree except WotC hasn't learned, their announcement was dishonest and condescending. They fully intend on going full steam ahead and are trying to make us think that we are on the same side. They aim to take money wherever they think they can and until that mentality changes they will get the whipping they deserve.
I would love to see WotC come around, and try to be part of the community and supportive of it again. The hobby is better for having a decent edition of DnD in it - it's where I'd previously have directed folks looking for an entry level, simple game.
Their initial response made it clear they aren't going to do so though unless the community makes it hurt.
So every canceled sub is a win. Everyone person they can see rage quiting and pledging to bring as many other people with them is a win. And every person politely saying they're concerned and intend to avoid future purchases until WotC comes around is a win.
Theyre all wins, because they all mean pain for a profit driven, publicly owned company. And they've made it clear that's the language the community is going to have to speak to get them to back down.
Bring on the pain.
Let me remind you of the actual comparison you made:
"**** WIZARDS AND **** D&D PATHFINDER IS THE FUTURE ORC FOREVER PAIZO WILL SAVE US ANYONE STILL PLAYING THIS DEAD SHIT GAME IS A ****ING CORPO BOOTLICKER AND DESERVES TO DIE"
That's what you said. I second that I have yet to see anyone conducting themselves in the manner that you suggest, here or anywhere else. If they did, such posts were clearly outliers and should be disregarded.
What isn't helpful is using straw man examples as some kind of back-door means to suggest that WOTC needs a break now. WOTC does not deserve our sympathy, nor our understanding (beyond a clinical understanding of why they acted as they did), nor do they deserve a break. If D&D fails now, it will be through fault of their own hubris. They still have the power to right the ship. Until they do, they deserve every amount of flak they get.
Broadly, it just aggravates me how it seems like some folks are intent on blowing things up over this regardless of the actual consequence or situation. The issue in this entire situation is NOT DND the game or the creatives, its a couple of corporate leaders who have inexplicably gained and are retaining power regardless of what their actions are causing to everyone else. Criticism needs to be nuanced and our responses have to be nuanced as well otherwise you're just catching people in the crossfire and saying thats just part of this situation when its not. Folks need to stop spamming and harassing creatives and employees on social media thats messed up on so many levels same goes for content creators sticking with 5E maybe they just like the game and their worlds/works you know? Maybe they just aren't a fan of the mechanical aspects of Pathfinder and/or they can recognize its okay to play multiple systems. No boycotting the DND movie will not miraculously get the message across to the corporate leaders you'd just be hurting the creatives across numerous mediums for something that they have no say or control over and telling movie executives that we dont want to see these broad and sprawling tabletop setting and ideas adapted. If you want to play another system or try something out by all means do so theres a lot of other neat systems out there you could always do that. Implying that people who still want to play and create content for 5e are traitors or whatever is messed up on so many levels .Yurei1453 is completely right in every respect on this(also hi Yurei1453 I've really enjoyed your posts in the past and this inspired me to make a post on this topic as a longtime longtime lurker on DNDBeyond).
It really makes me sad and angry at a lot of levels how much venom folks are spewing at the moment and talk about "killing DND" and "Paizo the GOAT" and "WOTC and anyone who supports them are scum". Isn't the entire point of this to create a better environment for everyone in spite of the insanity that the corporate leaders are saying? Aren't we supposed to be pushing for a bigger and brighter and better DND in spite of the corporate leaders? DND is so so important to me on so many levels and has allowed me to be myself and explore aspects of myself and create worlds and immerse people in them and be a good DM and creator and even evolve the way I think about things. And I know thats a shared experience for a lot of folks all over on varying levels and across time as well. What is the endgame on this do you folks want to resolve the OGL issue or do you want to kill DND? That should hopefully be a pretty easy decision. The latter does no good for anyone and instead just hurts people across the board on a lot of levels. We need to be better in how we address this because its the right thing to do for all parties and for our future as players, and for all those tabletop players and creatives of the future. Lets work together on making a brighter and better and bigger DND for everyone where everyone can feel heard and supported and included.
I think you got that twisted:
Side A: STOP BEING TOXIC
Side B: We aren't being toxic, we're angry
Side A: HOW DARE YOU IMPUGN OUR HONOR
"screaming monkey" is it now? Can you not make a valid point without employing insulting and demeaning language. What is next, "subhuman?"
Unbelievably inappropriate like much of this thread. I am truly disgusted by the patronizing tone being employed here and throughout this entire thread.
The thread's title is an insult, the original post is chock with a patronizing, condescending tone, buttressed by colorful hyperbole intended to mute the voices of those with whom you disagree. In addition, as others have pointed out, these arguments rely again and again on straw man and other logical fallacies.
Calling people animals is simply insulting and does not bolster your arguments.
You seem to be well intentioned and in earnest, and perhaps buried in all of this you do have a valid point for consideration, but your delivery really suffers from the errors I have pointed out. Hope and light to you!
Obviously WotC/Hasbro management sees the game system being open as a problem, not as a driving force for its reach and development. There is no doubt anymore that the 1.1 leak was accurate and it is not hard to see that WotC would have gotten their way with that it would have destroyed what people usually refere to as the community. That is not an accident, but that was and very likely still is the strategy. The design team within WotC suposedly only was informed by management after the leak happened. They were also supposed to be cornered.
The new strategy that the WotC CEO referred to at the investor podcast ("fireside chat") does not need the community. It would do much better without 3rd parties as a closed ecosystem pretty much monopolizing the whole TTRPG market, TTRPG no longer being the main thing anyways. This has to be stopped before it still could succeed. Luckily the leakers made the community aware quite a bit before the OneDnD VTT is available, let alone an ecosystem of things pulling a new kind of customers in, like video games, mobile games, movies, TV series, ...
WotC can have their new world, but not exclusively having killed all those that made them the vastly dominant player that they have become, after DnD once was not much more than all the others that died -- while the OGL made the community grow to what it is, and only with that made DnD the IP that it is. Before the attempt to f... over everyone with 1.1 I think there would have been a path to something that would have allowed WotC to get some of the money from 3rd parties. Now all doubts are gone: WotC is not a partner, but the enemy. They need to be forced to do the right thing, and destroyed if they don't. The path still open to WotC is making 2.0 a 1.0a with irrevocable added and including both 5e and 6e as open game content. Much short of it there can only be war.
I think what you are missing is that the 3PP and players have drawn a line in the sand. Either WotC keeps OGL 1.0 or signs the ORC (seems to be two camps for this) or we WILL watch the bonfire that is D&D currently, not that we are happy about it if it comes to that. Make no mistake, D&D may be owned by WotC but WE made the game what it is. Our campaigns, our homebrew, our dedication. WotC was supposed to be the stewards, yet they think of themselves as the jailors. D&D didn't explode because of the great and glorious Tasha's or Xanathar's. It was made by groups like Critical Role, 3PP, Homebrew communities, average players pulling in new people.
Yurei, this is just from your early posts here but the venom you speak with raises the question of the amount of vitriol that spews from you. Please treat people with respect. You are taking people who are hurting and feeling betrayed and you are kicking them in the teeth.
You speak of wanting people not to be "hateful". Please consider your own repetitively abusive behavior.
No, I had it right the first time
Side A's had sock puppets supporting them, has folks in their ranks calling anyone who disagrees with them corporate bootlickers and worse, has flat out made things up ("Hasbro is going to steal all your homebrew and destroy Critical Role!") to try and get folks to join the cause, and just generally attracted a whole bunch of asshats I already had set to Ignore on this forum because they thought WOTC was too woke
If that's who you want to side with, you don't get to complain when other people point out the choice you've made
Active characters:
Edoumiaond Willegume "Eddie" Podslee, Vegetanian scholar (College of Spirits bard)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator (Assassin rogue)
Peter "the Pied Piper" Hausler, human con artist/remover of vermin (Circle of the Shepherd druid)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
The issue is that there IS a wide swathe of folks across the board when it comes to social media who are being toxic and reductive and destructive for the sake of it regardless of the situation or nuance(Which spoilers is contrary to their stated goals and only serves to hurt things and people) . Theres a fundamental difference between people who are communicating their legitimate anger with corporate leaders over the OGL/underhanded leadership tactics/making the personal choice to cancel their subscription or play another game in lieu of 5e and the people who are mindlessly attacking everyone and everything and talking about killing DND and how if you are playing DND you are a traitor etc . I(probably we but i dont want to presume for the collective) dont have any issues with the former thats your call and your personal choice and i understand the frustration with the OGL but i have a lot of issues with the toxicity and destruction being wrought by the latter. I promise that we are not jumping at shadows nor do we have any issues with you.
Hm. People want me to moderate my words, avoid incendiary or evocative language? They want me to stop using simile or comparison, to speak as mildly as I can with maximum care taken to sound professional, empathetic, and detached from the situation?
Hmm. People want me to use Corpospeak. How curious, given how much people profess to despise Corpospeak from Wizards.
Please do not contact or message me.
They may not have intended to "steal" anything BUT it did have a provision in the OGL 1.1 that would have allowed them to abuse it in such a way later if they felt like it. How many lawyers and layers of approval did it have to go through and it was still kept. Them saying it "would never have crossed our minds" is dubious at best and dishonest at worst. They knew what they were doing.
Considering the lack of common sense in a large part of the community, I don't blame Yurei for being angry that what was a meaningful protest turned in a large part into a counterproductive anti D&D movement.
DM for life by choice, biggest fan of D&D specifically.
I was wondering what WotC would do if someone said they had to pay a 25% fee to publish their stuff. I think they would have some push back on whoever was asking for a cut. IMHO there is a huge difference in "pharma bro" business plans and people working together to make a profitable future plans. I do think it is a challenging business cycle right now and I question if some companies can afford a 25% hit (if they were paying zero before) or even a 10% increase.
I do understand that there are a fair number of 3rd party people wrapped up in 5e and if it suddenly had a big drop in popularity it would affect a whole bunch of people. I hope that does not happen but at times, companies make mistakes and those mistakes can have vast consequences going forward.
So I can understand customers points of view as well as I can understand WotC trying to be compensated for new ways of using D&D to make money (besides selling books, other products, running tournaments, etc), but I can say I think it is a huge mess that no one needs right now.
LMAO!! Right, because refraining from calling people "rabid hyenas" is the equivalent of using Corpospeak. That totally makes sense...
If you really think that you might want to ask yourself how that could be a driving force behind 1.1 when WotC realses Hodozee while 3rd parties do have whole campaigns and settings especially tailored for the diversity that WotC couldn't even cater to if they wanted it with all their might -- as indeed there is toxicity that they have to consider around here. Maybe actually read 1.1. One needs a really vivid imagination to see that part being the core -- or even of any importance to them. And listening to the "fireside chat" might help understanding where we are, too. Or just listen to one of the several good videos about that, like the interview Roll for Combat had with the author of the phd thesis about the OGL, or several others. Yes, there is toxicity in the community. No, it has nothing to do with WotC trying to get rid of the OGL (1.1 was not an open license at all).
But... Hasbro literally WAS going to steal all the homebrew... at least in a manner of speaking. But yes, the people who didn't like WOTC in the first place still don't like them. I mean, yeah. That doesn't invalidate the current criticism of WOTC though.
But you do have to ask internally why it has become a sort of Quasi-anti D&D movement. Because right now you can't have D&D without WotC and they have just shown they will happily slice up D&D to make a quick extra few million. So any protests against WotC is a protest against D&D. It's like having to put down your zombified mother. You love her and want to find a cure for her but time is running out, and when it does.... yeah.