What would people think of a level-based magic item progression system, similar to feats? Like, say at level 3, Fighters get to choose one from the level 3 weapons table. But Wizards have to choose from the level 3 orbs table, for example. Maybe some classes get more, or get them faster. Some could get them from the "wrong" tables, like maybe Artificer gets a bonus one every so often, similar to the Magical Secrets feature for Bards, and maybe he can't even use it but he can give it to an ally. Or a Rogue might get to pick one from another list and use it himself.

Then you could either have the permanent magic items not appear as loot, or you could have the chosen items not show up until the party gets the loot, or you could just have bonus items in the loot.

I am strongly against having permanent magic items just suddenly appear in my game because a PC hits a certain level.

I dunno. It seems like a sorta cool variant. But I also really like the spell system as is.

Quote from IamSposta >>

I am strongly against having permanent magic items just suddenly appear in my game because a PC hits a certain level.

 For narrative reasons? Then how do you feel about a character suddenly gaining new abilities?

A magic item that is unique to and given by your class, only you can use, and is permanent? Sounds like you want class features, not magic items.

Characters gaining new abilities and spells after training and practice can't really be compared to items popping out of the ether for no apparent reason.

Quote from ChoirOfFire >>

What would people think of a level-based magic item progression system, similar to feats? Like, say at level 3, Fighters get to choose one from the level 3 weapons table. But Wizards have to choose from the level 3 orbs table, for example. Maybe some classes get more, or get them faster. Some could get them from the "wrong" tables, like maybe Artificer gets a bonus one every so often, similar to the Magical Secrets feature for Bards, and maybe he can't even use it but he can give it to an ally. Or a Rogue might get to pick one from another list and use it himself.

Then you could either have the permanent magic items not appear as loot, or you could have the chosen items not show up until the party gets the loot, or you could just have bonus items in the loot.

 In 4e I used to run the low magic variant where you just got bonuses, which is kind of like this. It worked, but that was because the math expected it. 

For those who didn’t play that edition, it was assumed you’d have +1 items in a few slots by a certain level. I don’t remember exactly how it was, but it was something like, by level 5, everyone in the party would have a +1 weapon, armor and neck (boost non-AC defenses). Then, by level 9 they’d all be +2, etc.The game math assumed it, and if you didn’t have them, you’d fall behind. But it really got to be a headache for the DM, where you pretty much needed an excel sheet to make sure you’d given everyone the right gear. Instead, I did the low magic variant, and just gave everyone a bonus to those stats at those levels, and not do all the bookkeeping. 

I don’t really want to go back to that, but I did like that it gave clear expectations for what the PCs would have, and when. Now we just have the uncommon, common, rare, etc. And many of them don’t make sense for how they’re classified. So, I guess what I’d like is better clarity on when they should appear. I know there’s the guidance in the DMG, it’s just a little too loosey-goosey for my tastes. 

On the magic items side..

have you thought about attunement?

aside from the underlying reason it is there being that PCs can’t haul around a hundred items, it is a ripe tool for exactly that kind of structured magical leveling.

as players grow and progress, they learn (much of it “off screen”). You could set up attunement like that — some items cannot be attuned until a character reaches a certain stage of mastery of their skills.

wands and “common” type things like rings could be along the lines of a primer item. Say first tier. Until they reach second tier, they cannot attune certain kinds of items, then again at third, an so on.

judt a basic idea, would need fleshing out, but would that work?

Quote from ChoirOfFire >>

What would people think of a level-based magic item progression system, similar to feats? Like, say at level 3, Fighters get to choose one from the level 3 weapons table. But Wizards have to choose from the level 3 orbs table, for example. Maybe some classes get more, or get them faster. Some could get them from the "wrong" tables, like maybe Artificer gets a bonus one every so often, similar to the Magical Secrets feature for Bards, and maybe he can't even use it but he can give it to an ally. Or a Rogue might get to pick one from another list and use it himself.

Then you could either have the permanent magic items not appear as loot, or you could have the chosen items not show up until the party gets the loot, or you could just have bonus items in the loot.

 Magic items should be given as a reward and a tool to the players by the DM when they do something like slay a dragon. I don't think it really makes sense to allow them to happen to find a magic item at certain levels. They should be parts of the story, not a feature they automatically get. Wouldn't that also make it less likely that you find real magic items on your adventures that have something to do with the story and aren't there just because the DM is required to give them to you? 

Quote from AEDorsay >>

On the magic items side..

 

have you thought about attunement?

aside from the underlying reason it is there being that PCs can’t haul around a hundred items, it is a ripe tool for exactly that kind of structured magical leveling.

as players grow and progress, they learn (much of it “off screen”). You could set up attunement like that — some items cannot be attuned until a character reaches a certain stage of mastery of their skills.

wands and “common” type things like rings could be along the lines of a primer item. Say first tier. Until they reach second tier, they cannot attune certain kinds of items, then again at third, an so on.

judt a basic idea, would need fleshing out, but would that work?

 That is an interesting idea. I think having items that require you to be a certain skill level before using them would be useful, but it might be a little problematic if you wanted to have a weak character use a powerful magic item. Giving a low level powerful magic items can be fun and make stories more interesting. Like giving an amulet of plane shifting to a low level party might be a fun way to have them explore more areas, it can be used as a plot device, and they will have a useful power.

Quote from The_Summoning_Dark >>

Quote from AEDorsay >>

On the magic items side..

 

have you thought about attunement?

aside from the underlying reason it is there being that PCs can’t haul around a hundred items, it is a ripe tool for exactly that kind of structured magical leveling.

as players grow and progress, they learn (much of it “off screen”). You could set up attunement like that — some items cannot be attuned until a character reaches a certain stage of mastery of their skills.

wands and “common” type things like rings could be along the lines of a primer item. Say first tier. Until they reach second tier, they cannot attune certain kinds of items, then again at third, an so on.

judt a basic idea, would need fleshing out, but would that work?

 That is an interesting idea. I think having items that require you to be a certain skill level before using them would be useful, but it might be a little problematic if you wanted to have a weak character use a powerful magic item. Giving a low level powerful magic items can be fun and make stories more interesting. Like giving an amulet of plane shifting to a low level party might be a fun way to have them explore more areas, it can be used as a plot device, and they will have a useful power.

 
true, and macguffins are always exceptions, lol

I mean, you can give a 1st level character a wand of fireballs as part of a story (or even a back story), but they will still be first level.

with a bazooka, but still first level. And one never knows — maybe Fate has plans where they will need a bazooka…

Quote from AEDorsay >>

On the magic items side..

 

have you thought about attunement?

aside from the underlying reason it is there being that PCs can’t haul around a hundred items, it is a ripe tool for exactly that kind of structured magical leveling.

as players grow and progress, they learn (much of it “off screen”). You could set up attunement like that — some items cannot be attuned until a character reaches a certain stage of mastery of their skills.

wands and “common” type things like rings could be along the lines of a primer item. Say first tier. Until they reach second tier, they cannot attune certain kinds of items, then again at third, an so on.

judt a basic idea, would need fleshing out, but would that work?

 Wildemount has something similar. Vestiges of divergence are items that grow in power along with the characters. They start off with small abilities, but increase in power as the characters do. But the power bump is tied to rp goals, not strictly leveling, so the DM has broad discretion about when they power up. 
Also, fizban’s has the dragon horde items that can grow in power if you can find a dragon horde to put them in to simmer for a bit. 
I do like the idea of items growing with characters. It lets you do the classic, this was the sword my grandmother wielded in the famous battle. It’s just a regular sword for me, but it’s true power can be revealed as I prove I’m worthy of it.

Quote from ChoirOfFire >>

Quote from IamSposta >>

I am strongly against having permanent magic items just suddenly appear in my game because a PC hits a certain level.

 For narrative reasons? Then how do you feel about a character suddenly gaining new abilities?

 
Abilities are internal to the characters, but magic items (aside from infusions) are external.

Quote from Quar1on >>

A magic item that is unique to and given by your class, only you can use, and is permanent? Sounds like you want class features, not magic items.

Characters gaining new abilities and spells after training and practice can't really be compared to items popping out of the ether for no apparent reason.

 
Precisely.

Caliburn and Excalibur did, after all, wax and wane in power through Arthur’s foibles, missteps, successes, and turns.

Quote from Xalthu >>

Quote from AEDorsay >>

On the magic items side..

 

have you thought about attunement?

aside from the underlying reason it is there being that PCs can’t haul around a hundred items, it is a ripe tool for exactly that kind of structured magical leveling.

as players grow and progress, they learn (much of it “off screen”). You could set up attunement like that — some items cannot be attuned until a character reaches a certain stage of mastery of their skills.

wands and “common” type things like rings could be along the lines of a primer item. Say first tier. Until they reach second tier, they cannot attune certain kinds of items, then again at third, an so on.

judt a basic idea, would need fleshing out, but would that work?

 Wildemount has something similar. Vestiges of divergence are items that grow in power along with the characters. They start off with small abilities, but increase in power as the characters do. But the power bump is tied to rp goals, not strictly leveling, so the DM has broad discretion about when they power up. 
Also, fizban’s has the dragon horde items that can grow in power if you can find a dragon horde to put them in to simmer for a bit. 
I do like the idea of items growing with characters. It lets you do the classic, this was the sword my grandmother wielded in the famous battle. It’s just a regular sword for me, but it’s true power can be revealed as I prove I’m worthy of it.

 
Theros had weapons that grow with your devotion to your god (which can be transplanted pretty easily to non-Theros gods).  I think they started at a bit too high of a power level to effectively grow with the player since they couldn’t be provided in the early game, but it was still a pretty neat concept I would love to see expanded on.

Quote from AEDorsay >>

On the magic items side..

 

have you thought about attunement?

aside from the underlying reason it is there being that PCs can’t haul around a hundred items, it is a ripe tool for exactly that kind of structured magical leveling.

as players grow and progress, they learn (much of it “off screen”). You could set up attunement like that — some items cannot be attuned until a character reaches a certain stage of mastery of their skills.

wands and “common” type things like rings could be along the lines of a primer item. Say first tier. Until they reach second tier, they cannot attune certain kinds of items, then again at third, an so on.

judt a basic idea, would need fleshing out, but would that work?

 
IMO, Attunement slots should equal ½PB rounded up.

Quote from Caerwyn_Glyndwr >>

Quote from Xalthu >>

Quote from AEDorsay >>

On the magic items side..

 

have you thought about attunement?

aside from the underlying reason it is there being that PCs can’t haul around a hundred items, it is a ripe tool for exactly that kind of structured magical leveling.

as players grow and progress, they learn (much of it “off screen”). You could set up attunement like that — some items cannot be attuned until a character reaches a certain stage of mastery of their skills.

wands and “common” type things like rings could be along the lines of a primer item. Say first tier. Until they reach second tier, they cannot attune certain kinds of items, then again at third, an so on.

judt a basic idea, would need fleshing out, but would that work?

 Wildemount has something similar. Vestiges of divergence are items that grow in power along with the characters. They start off with small abilities, but increase in power as the characters do. But the power bump is tied to rp goals, not strictly leveling, so the DM has broad discretion about when they power up. 
Also, fizban’s has the dragon horde items that can grow in power if you can find a dragon horde to put them in to simmer for a bit. 
I do like the idea of items growing with characters. It lets you do the classic, this was the sword my grandmother wielded in the famous battle. It’s just a regular sword for me, but it’s true power can be revealed as I prove I’m worthy of it.

 
Theros had weapons that grow with your devotion to your god (which can be transplanted pretty easily to non-Theros gods).  I think they started at a bit too high of a power level to effectively grow with the player since they couldn’t be provided in the early game, but it was still a pretty neat concept I would love to see expanded on.

One simple way I like to handle this is to make an attunement condition something more complex than just "take a nap with it"

One of the characters in my game had a magic sword that provided a basic bonus before attunement, and a whole lot more once attuned. The attunement condition, however, was "You must face a fear" -- something open-ended enough to allow for plenty of RP opportunities depending on how the player wanted to approach it

On the magic item discussion, our DM has given us a few homebrewed magic items that grow with us as we use them. Utilizing these special items' power gets our characters more "attuned" with them you might say, and more features start to awaken. It's not a hard-and-fast system like class level feats but it's a fun way to develop the items for both utility and RP purposes.

Magic items that get better as you level up? Sounds like you want class features, not magic items. ;)

I don't see the issue. A Wizard suddenly has learned new spells from study even though she hasn't been studying, she's been killing monsters in a cave -- no problem, we're all used to making up justifications or just ignoring it. A Wizard suddenly finding a magic carpet in the place where she's been killing monsters -- why is that somehow less believable?

Anyway, like I said, you could just say "these items aren't yours until you open the treasure chest of a boss that's your level or higher," and that's that. We're no strangers to mechanics intruding on the narrative, we use hit points and Clerics can only channel divinity a couple of times a day, etc etc. And why would the items need to be locked to your character permanently? If they're all from specified tiers, it should be pretty easy to judge which ones are of equivalent value, so you can just trade them freely with NPCs and stuff.

Furthermore, you could ensure that your party will *use* your cool special MacGuffin item, by combining it with one of the items they specifically chose.

Quote from ChoirOfFire >>

Magic items that get better as you level up? Sounds like you want class features, not magic items. ;)

I don't see the issue. A Wizard suddenly has learned new spells from study even though she hasn't been studying, she's been killing monsters in a cave -- no problem, we're all used to making up justifications or just ignoring it. A Wizard suddenly finding a magic carpet in the place where she's been killing monsters -- why is that somehow less believable?

 
First of all, it is presumed that Wizard has been studying whenever they take a rest.

Second, it is absolutely believable for that Wiz to find a magic carpet, that’s in fact exactly how they should come across stuff like magic items. But they cannot suddenly find a magic item where none exists, and it cannot exist there if the DM didn’t put it there. A player suddenly stating that there was a magic carpet in this corner of the room all along because they just say so is like the DM saying their character can’t learn 6th level spells because they just said so. The PCs and their own internal features and traits are the purview of the players. The rest of the world belongs to the DM. The DM is a player too, don’t f*ck with my part of the game and I won’t f*ck with yours.