I am left with the feeling that MTF is lacking in content. Ever since that feeling, I've come across a few things where I thought, "Gee, that should've been in Mordy's Tome." These are those things:
Mordenkainen's statblock.
Mordenkainen's Disjunction (one of his famous spells).
Mordenkainen's Staff.
Giff as a playable race.
Artificer class (or subclass).
Mystic class.
Graphical depictions of the lower planes.
Are there any other things that you think should've been included?
how about the actual archdevils that people wanted to see... asmodeus, levistus, baal... you know those from the invocations and the types they actually talked about in the cambion and cult section.
there is literally 9 demon lords with stats, but only like 3 archdevils with stats. that's what im disappointed about the book. Giff as playable race, for sure, the way they talked about it i thought it was a new race. not just a monster for spell jammer people.
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I agree with all the above, except Mordekaine's stats.
I always thought it is not a good idea to give "official" statistics to iconic characters (as they did in the 3ed for Elminster, Drizzt and a bunch of other characters from the Forgotten Realms), mainly for two reasons:
- As soon as you give something stats, there's going to be people willing to kill it;
- It takes away a lot of the "mysticism" from the legendary figure and "locks" a DM into using those stats; there is always going to be that one player that will complain and put on a spectacle as soon as you make the icon do something outside of the official stat.
But for the rest: I agree 100%. MToF is an interesting book from a lore standpoint, but severely lacking additional options for players and some extremely important additional "fluff".
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Born in Italy, moved a bunch, living in Spain, my heart always belonged to Roleplaying Games
Yeah, more archdevils would be nice, I agree. The rest... meh. @LeK is right about not statting up Mordenkainen: don't ever do that unless it's somebody you want players to kill. This is as true for DMs as it is for game designers. And playable Giff were discarded as an idea for a number of reasons, not least of which is that they are Large size.
The problem with that point of view, is that if you think that way, then why do you even buy the books... after all, every monsters you will pick in it has stats. from your point of view, archdevils and demon lords shouldn't have had stats at all. the argument is easily settled with that player by saying im the DM and i didn't like the stats as is. problem solved !
i find these arguments lacking when it comes to that. as for large sizes... the last Ua has centaurs as large playable creatures, so clearly large size isn't a problem per say to them.
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I mean, that's literally the reason: both on the stats and size issue. You're welcome to roll up your own version of Mord, of course! As for adrchdevils and demon lords: I do want my players going after them, eventually. Just not Gary Gygax's actual player-character.
Edit: I'm pretty sure some of this is discussed in the recent Dragon+ video:
question, does Large really is that game breaking ? no its not, my players have tryed it, not game breaking at all. don't know why wizard try to shoehorn everything into medium... if anything it brings more pain to be large then good, because doors.
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question, does Large really is that game breaking ? no its not, my players have tryed it, not game breaking at all. don't know why wizard try to shoehorn everything into medium... if anything it brings more pain to be large then good, because doors.
Yeah, I agree. The squeezing rules alone would make playing a large creature just as inconvenient to the player as sunlight sensitivity does and yet they seem fine with giving that to a stack of playable races.
The firbolg got morphed into something so totally unrepresentative of its origins that it's essentially an entirely new race; there was literally no need to call it a firbolg because it simply doesn't resemble a firbolg, at all. They would've been better off creating an entirely new race with a new name and background, or just making it a large playable race and hewing more closely to the lore and established traditions.
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"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
One of the things I found interesting was that the Shadow Dancer Shadar-Kai was introduced, but yet we don't have a way to duplicate it as a player officially. Perhaps someday we can get that included as a class option somewhere. Just surprised it wasn't included since it was pretty well spelled out and works like it has in the past. Maybe it is still being tested and the balance is off (once per round is STRONG for a character to do a teleport... and can do it between attacks in an attack action). Maybe all of these PC things will be coming along in a follow-up book...
One of the things I found interesting was that the Shadow Dancer Shadar-Kai was introduced, but yet we don't have a way to duplicate it as a player officially. Perhaps someday we can get that included as a class option somewhere. Just surprised it wasn't included since it was pretty well spelled out and works like it has in the past. Maybe it is still being tested and the balance is off (once per round is STRONG for a character to do a teleport... and can do it between attacks in an attack action). Maybe all of these PC things will be coming along in a follow-up book...
Shadow Monk can do it and the shadar kai is a new race now. so yes it is copyable. but the teleport is level 14 on the monk.
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DM of two gaming groups. Likes to create stuff. Check out my homebrew --> Monsters --> Magical Items --> Races --> Subclasses If you like --> Upvote, If you wanna comment --> Comment
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Mordenkainen's Disjunction (one of his famous spells).
There's no chance of Mordenkainen's Disjunction showing up in 5e. Part of the design philosophy in 5e is that magic items are special and player's magic items shouldn't be easily broken. As far as I know every spell in the game avoids damaging magic items that are being worn or carried.
One of the things I found interesting was that the Shadow Dancer Shadar-Kai was introduced, but yet we don't have a way to duplicate it as a player officially. Perhaps someday we can get that included as a class option somewhere. Just surprised it wasn't included since it was pretty well spelled out and works like it has in the past. Maybe it is still being tested and the balance is off (once per round is STRONG for a character to do a teleport... and can do it between attacks in an attack action). Maybe all of these PC things will be coming along in a follow-up book...
I know the chain whip isn't a player-usable weapon (and there's no way they'd ever introduce it with those stats and effects), but...
Monks of the Way of Shadow follow a tradition that values stealth and subterfuge. These monks might be called ninjas or shadowdancers, and they serve as spies and assassins.
Note that shadow monks have a 60 foot version of the Shadow Dancer's Shadow Jump, and get advantage on the first melee attack they make afterwards.
Artificer class is coming in eberron and mystic is being reworked for darksun Wizards have already said this. I feel some people may have gotten overhyped from this cause early on we were told this will be like volos (and i feel no one asked for volos or elminsters stats in volos) with some new race options and monsters but no items or spells. I highly expect that will come in the next xanathars style book.
As for why no certain high level archedevils i feel its because in 3.5 it was shown that if you give a god stats players will kills them and they dont want players killing some of the high power entities (remember asmodeus in not only THE archdevil but also a god so if they let you kill him the precendent has been set for them to give all the gods stats). Saying that i would have liked more archedevils but i do thing they were right to not give them all stats.
Giff as a race i would have loved however i will say i feel the reasoning behind it is that spelljammer is not officially released for 5e yet and when they do that we will see them. Mainly because alot of the knowledge a giff would have in setting would be about spelljamming and space.
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Loex - A Lizardfolk Lvl 4/7/4 Hexblade Profane Blood Hunter/ Battlesmith Artificer/ Cleric of the Forge Arborea - A Warforged Lvl 5 Hexblade Warlock Archive - A Autognome Lvl 3 Old One Warlock ER15 - A Autognome Lvl 7 Binder Warlock
I don't have them to link but at a talk with mike mearls about the all the editions of dnd with a bunch of older designers, he let slip accidnetally that darksun would have mystic redevlopment.
Artificer is a muh older one I think jeremy crawford said that one.
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Loex - A Lizardfolk Lvl 4/7/4 Hexblade Profane Blood Hunter/ Battlesmith Artificer/ Cleric of the Forge Arborea - A Warforged Lvl 5 Hexblade Warlock Archive - A Autognome Lvl 3 Old One Warlock ER15 - A Autognome Lvl 7 Binder Warlock
I feel like archdevil and demon lord stats are mostly irrelevant. The high-ranking fiends are smart and don't fight fair, so their actual stats shouldn't be the deciding factor in a fight, and players should never be in a position to permanently kill a high-ranking fiend in their own plane. If Asmodeus himself hasn't managed to kill Demogorgon in the thousands of years both have existed, a small group of mortals aren't going to pull that off on a whim.
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I am left with the feeling that MTF is lacking in content. Ever since that feeling, I've come across a few things where I thought, "Gee, that should've been in Mordy's Tome." These are those things:
Are there any other things that you think should've been included?
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
― Oscar Wilde.
Gith are in MToF as a playable race.
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
― Oscar Wilde.
how about the actual archdevils that people wanted to see...
asmodeus, levistus, baal... you know those from the invocations and the types they actually talked about in the cambion and cult section.
there is literally 9 demon lords with stats, but only like 3 archdevils with stats.
that's what im disappointed about the book.
Giff as playable race, for sure, the way they talked about it i thought it was a new race. not just a monster for spell jammer people.
DM of two gaming groups.
Likes to create stuff.
Check out my homebrew --> Monsters --> Magical Items --> Races --> Subclasses
If you like --> Upvote, If you wanna comment --> Comment
Play by Post Games
--> One Shot Adventure - House of Artwood (DM) (Completed)
I agree with all the above, except Mordekaine's stats.
I always thought it is not a good idea to give "official" statistics to iconic characters (as they did in the 3ed for Elminster, Drizzt and a bunch of other characters from the Forgotten Realms), mainly for two reasons:
- As soon as you give something stats, there's going to be people willing to kill it;
- It takes away a lot of the "mysticism" from the legendary figure and "locks" a DM into using those stats; there is always going to be that one player that will complain and put on a spectacle as soon as you make the icon do something outside of the official stat.
But for the rest: I agree 100%. MToF is an interesting book from a lore standpoint, but severely lacking additional options for players and some extremely important additional "fluff".
Born in Italy, moved a bunch, living in Spain, my heart always belonged to Roleplaying Games
Yeah, more archdevils would be nice, I agree. The rest... meh. @LeK is right about not statting up Mordenkainen: don't ever do that unless it's somebody you want players to kill. This is as true for DMs as it is for game designers. And playable Giff were discarded as an idea for a number of reasons, not least of which is that they are Large size.
The problem with that point of view, is that if you think that way, then why do you even buy the books... after all, every monsters you will pick in it has stats. from your point of view, archdevils and demon lords shouldn't have had stats at all. the argument is easily settled with that player by saying im the DM and i didn't like the stats as is. problem solved !
i find these arguments lacking when it comes to that.
as for large sizes... the last Ua has centaurs as large playable creatures, so clearly large size isn't a problem per say to them.
DM of two gaming groups.
Likes to create stuff.
Check out my homebrew --> Monsters --> Magical Items --> Races --> Subclasses
If you like --> Upvote, If you wanna comment --> Comment
Play by Post Games
--> One Shot Adventure - House of Artwood (DM) (Completed)
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
― Oscar Wilde.
I mean, that's literally the reason: both on the stats and size issue. You're welcome to roll up your own version of Mord, of course! As for adrchdevils and demon lords: I do want my players going after them, eventually. Just not Gary Gygax's actual player-character.
Edit: I'm pretty sure some of this is discussed in the recent Dragon+ video:
question, does Large really is that game breaking ?
no its not, my players have tryed it, not game breaking at all. don't know why wizard try to shoehorn everything into medium... if anything it brings more pain to be large then good, because doors.
DM of two gaming groups.
Likes to create stuff.
Check out my homebrew --> Monsters --> Magical Items --> Races --> Subclasses
If you like --> Upvote, If you wanna comment --> Comment
Play by Post Games
--> One Shot Adventure - House of Artwood (DM) (Completed)
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
― Oscar Wilde.
One of the things I found interesting was that the Shadow Dancer Shadar-Kai was introduced, but yet we don't have a way to duplicate it as a player officially. Perhaps someday we can get that included as a class option somewhere. Just surprised it wasn't included since it was pretty well spelled out and works like it has in the past. Maybe it is still being tested and the balance is off (once per round is STRONG for a character to do a teleport... and can do it between attacks in an attack action). Maybe all of these PC things will be coming along in a follow-up book...
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
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DM of two gaming groups.
Likes to create stuff.
Check out my homebrew --> Monsters --> Magical Items --> Races --> Subclasses
If you like --> Upvote, If you wanna comment --> Comment
Play by Post Games
--> One Shot Adventure - House of Artwood (DM) (Completed)
Oh, interesting! I'd heard otherwise and didn't think to double check. Thanks for pointing that out!
Note that shadow monks have a 60 foot version of the Shadow Dancer's Shadow Jump, and get advantage on the first melee attack they make afterwards.
The Forum Infestation (TM)
Artificer class is coming in eberron and mystic is being reworked for darksun Wizards have already said this. I feel some people may have gotten overhyped from this cause early on we were told this will be like volos (and i feel no one asked for volos or elminsters stats in volos) with some new race options and monsters but no items or spells. I highly expect that will come in the next xanathars style book.
As for why no certain high level archedevils i feel its because in 3.5 it was shown that if you give a god stats players will kills them and they dont want players killing some of the high power entities (remember asmodeus in not only THE archdevil but also a god so if they let you kill him the precendent has been set for them to give all the gods stats). Saying that i would have liked more archedevils but i do thing they were right to not give them all stats.
Giff as a race i would have loved however i will say i feel the reasoning behind it is that spelljammer is not officially released for 5e yet and when they do that we will see them. Mainly because alot of the knowledge a giff would have in setting would be about spelljamming and space.
Loex - A Lizardfolk Lvl 4/7/4 Hexblade Profane Blood Hunter/ Battlesmith Artificer/ Cleric of the Forge
Arborea - A Warforged Lvl 5 Hexblade Warlock
Archive - A Autognome Lvl 3 Old One Warlock
ER15 - A Autognome Lvl 7 Binder Warlock
DM - "Malign Intelligence"
Would you happen to have a source for this?
Born in Italy, moved a bunch, living in Spain, my heart always belonged to Roleplaying Games
I don't have them to link but at a talk with mike mearls about the all the editions of dnd with a bunch of older designers, he let slip accidnetally that darksun would have mystic redevlopment.
Artificer is a muh older one I think jeremy crawford said that one.
Loex - A Lizardfolk Lvl 4/7/4 Hexblade Profane Blood Hunter/ Battlesmith Artificer/ Cleric of the Forge
Arborea - A Warforged Lvl 5 Hexblade Warlock
Archive - A Autognome Lvl 3 Old One Warlock
ER15 - A Autognome Lvl 7 Binder Warlock
DM - "Malign Intelligence"
I feel like archdevil and demon lord stats are mostly irrelevant. The high-ranking fiends are smart and don't fight fair, so their actual stats shouldn't be the deciding factor in a fight, and players should never be in a position to permanently kill a high-ranking fiend in their own plane. If Asmodeus himself hasn't managed to kill Demogorgon in the thousands of years both have existed, a small group of mortals aren't going to pull that off on a whim.
The Forum Infestation (TM)