I also don’t think it’s copyright. As pocket mouse said, there jabberwock, also, there’s the vorpal sword, and snickersnack, the specific vorpal sword. And the harengon owes a lot to that story, probably a number of other things from WBtW. Finally, the phrase “grinning like a Cheshire Cat” predates Alice in Wonderland by at least 80 years. At least it does per Wikipedia. So, yeah, probably it’s that there’s no context for Cheshire. Though it would be fun if they left it to imply Earth is in the multiverse. I mean, the kids from to 80’s cartoon were in the movie, so if that’s canon, it’s already kind of happened.
According to Ed Greenwood, Earth is in the Multiverse. Elminster visited it several times.
Yes but Elminster did not amass great personal wealth or even renown by importing cats and cheeses in the the Realms to the degree that they all became household names while keeping their English referents intact.
He lends his name to a lot of DMs Guild Forgotten Realm stuff, and also his writing. Some of it is rehashing of old material, but there's also original stuff.
Regardless, he didn't take Elminster of a tour of the world's cheese mongeries, maybe a pet shelter at some point.
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Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
I think the name change is less because of copyright (Alice In Wonderland has long since become public domain) and more because it makes no sense to name something in a fantasy world that isn't connected to Earth (anymore) after a county in England.
Oh, that makes a lot of sense. I thought that maybe after the Alice in wonder land movies came out, whatever company produced those may hold the copy write to the names and characters, but obviously not. Also, just after posting this I remembered that they kept Jabberwoky in the game, so obviously all this stuff is in the public domain. Also, I am in no way a copy write master.
Alice in Wonderland became public in 1911, and Through the Lookingglass in 1948. You can use the names and characters, but not the art or images from the movies and other games. (note, trying to remove bold has failed me, I should have never copied pasted the 1948 part...blaa)
Ha, I should really know this stuff, especially since I'm taking a class on Copyright. Anyways thanks for clearing that up for me.
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A role-player since birth, and one of the lowest forms of life on the planet. Fun!
2) It is not a given that Forgotten Realms are in the multiverse of any given DM
3) Even if (1) and (2) are not relevant, how would Cheshire Cats be named after anything from Earth? Did Elminster personally name them?
1: He's still very active in the community, and still writes books. His likeness is even found in videos games every now and again, Larian I saw what you guys did in BG3.
2. Any given DM can do a homebrew setting that doesn't fit any lore or rules in D&D. But when talking D&D lore, we are not talking Homebrew, the movie is more canon than your game.
3. ok this is too short a place for this kind of reply. But....
Forgotten Realms was always an Isekai setting, way back in the 80s TSR Ed Greenwood, and all the people writing D&D intended the game to be set on a parallel Earth, Toril is Based on Earth, the old Cosmology maps from Spelljammer even gave the location of Earth. Sure a bunch of old lore has been dropped from "canon" but the inclusion of the Easter Egg Cartoon characters in the Movie, and the movie being declared official canon, means means the 80s intended isekai status of D&D is still true. There is several Earth Pantheons in Toril mostly Egypt and Babylon, and there are humans from Earth falling into the setting often enough for words and names from Earth to stick.
As for the cat, the Grinning Cat is the common name of the creature, and an apt description of what it is. The Cheshire Cat, a Grinning Cat, is named for a Region of north England (County Cheshire) famous for cats and cheese, and rolling hills small villages, and lots of green grass. The concept of a Grinning cat from Cheshire goes back almost 200 years. (maybe more) as it's tied to a local fairy tale, set in ... Cheshire.
The Feywild connects all lands and oceans of the material plain, you could according to D&D lore, step out of your mundane home here on Earth, fall through a crack in reality, and land in the Feywild, Toril, or the Shadowfel, it's what happened in the Cartoon, still canon characters BTW. According to D&D lore, Wonderland is probably in the Feywild, Oz is probably on another world in the same dimension as Toril (or even an area on the other continent of one of the other worlds in D&D canon)
Elminster makes trips to Earth because he loves new things, and well our food is great, and he loves small soft animals.
2) It is not a given that Forgotten Realms are in the multiverse of any given DM
3) Even if (1) and (2) are not relevant, how would Cheshire Cats be named after anything from Earth? Did Elminster personally name them?
1: He's still very active in the community, and still writes books. His likeness is even found in videos games every now and again, Larian I saw what you guys did in BG3.
2. Any given DM can do a homebrew setting that doesn't fit any lore or rules in D&D. But when talking D&D lore, we are not talking Homebrew, the movie is more canon than your game.
3. ok this is too short a place for this kind of reply. But....
Forgotten Realms was always an Isekai setting, way back in the 80s TSR Ed Greenwood, and all the people writing D&D intended the game to be set on a parallel Earth, Toril is Based on Earth, the old Cosmology maps from Spelljammer even gave the location of Earth. Sure a bunch of old lore has been dropped from "canon" but the inclusion of the Easter Egg Cartoon characters in the Movie, and the movie being declared official canon, means means the 80s intended isekai status of D&D is still true. There is several Earth Pantheons in Toril mostly Egypt and Babylon, and there are humans from Earth falling into the setting often enough for words and names from Earth to stick.
As for the cat, the Grinning Cat is the common name of the creature, and an apt description of what it is. The Cheshire Cat, a Grinning Cat, is named for a Region of north England (County Cheshire) famous for cats and cheese, and rolling hills small villages, and lots of green grass. The concept of a Grinning cat from Cheshire goes back almost 200 years. (maybe more) as it's tied to a local fairy tale, set in ... Cheshire.
The Feywild connects all lands and oceans of the material plain, you could according to D&D lore, step out of your mundane home here on Earth, fall through a crack in reality, and land in the Feywild, Toril, or the Shadowfel, it's what happened in the Cartoon, still canon characters BTW. According to D&D lore, Wonderland is probably in the Feywild, Oz is probably on another world in the same dimension as Toril (or even an area on the other continent of one of the other worlds in D&D canon)
Elminster makes trips to Earth because he loves new things, and well our food is great, and he loves small soft animals.
Good god, that is a lot of info.
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A role-player since birth, and one of the lowest forms of life on the planet. Fun!
This article for Cheshire Live may interest you. Cheshire cheese was (according to legend) originally sold in cat like shapes. Pre-written history, the tribe that lived in Cheshire had a cat for a their spirit animal/mascot. There is a carving of a cat on a church that has been designed to appear to disappear when shadows fall upon it, but it doesn't grin.
What has clearly happened is that a Grinning Cat from the Feywild made its way to Earth and lived for a time in what would be known as the Cheshire. Since Fey are not known for giving their true names, Cheshire is likely the name the Grinning Cat gave or was given to it by whatever mortal first encountered it and probably ended up making a pact (s)he shouldn't have. So here we are, centuries or even millennia later, with a descendant of that Grinning Cat's warlock trying to get the name changed.
This article for Cheshire Live may interest you. Cheshire cheese was (according to legend) originally sold in cat like shapes. Pre-written history, the tribe that lived in Cheshire had a cat for a their spirit animal/mascot. There is a carving of a cat on a church that has been designed to appear to disappear when shadows fall upon it, but it doesn't grin.
What has clearly happened is that a Grinning Cat from the Feywild made its way to Earth and lived for a time in what would be known as the Cheshire. Since Fey are not known for giving their true names, Cheshire is likely the name the Grinning Cat gave or was given to it by whatever mortal first encountered it and probably ended up making a pact (s)he shouldn't have. So here we are, centuries or even millennia later, with a descendant of that Grinning Cat's warlock trying to get the name changed.
You're not fooling us, Jona.
Ahhh crap. How'd you figure it out???
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A role-player since birth, and one of the lowest forms of life on the planet. Fun!
There appear to be a fairly large number of theories about the origin of the Cheshire cat. Another is a carving on St Wilfrid's Church.
Yes, I did not expect this to become a debate space about the Cheshire cat, but it organically grew it that, so I most certainly am not going to interfere.
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A role-player since birth, and one of the lowest forms of life on the planet. Fun!
Eh, to me just because Cheshire is place in England doesn't give them a monopoly on the word forever. Words can mean different things, even while referencing something else a player would understand.
In my fey campaign there is a creature called a Cheshire. It does not initially present itself as a cat, but that doesn't mean it can't be a cat when it wants to be. It might even be THE cat. It's not supposed to be fully understood and it's not even required to fully make sense. That's kind of the whole deal with Alice in Wonderland, and by extension the Feywild that it helped to inspire.
That being said, I have no problem with WotC writing up a generic version. I think it helps to encourage players to put their own spin on it rather than just kind of reenact scenes from known media.
As I write this from a house in Cheshire containing several cats... I can confirm that they are tricksy, toothy and mischievous fey creatures one and all.
Eh, to me just because Cheshire is place in England doesn't give them a monopoly on the word forever. Words can mean different things, even while referencing something else a player would understand.
It's not that the location has a monopoly on the word, the issue is that using something that references a real-world location in a fictional setting that doesn't have a tie to the real world can be immersion-breaking for many people. It would be jarring to see, for example, a Tasmanian devil or Yorkshire pudding randomly referenced in a module set in Greyhawk. Much easier to just give them names that are generic and descriptions that tell us what they're supposed to be.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Wow... that joke seriously went over your head, Kotath. Twice. That's ok. My jokes are really just for me anyways.
Just to clarify, at no point did I claim the cheese being cut into cat shapes was any sort of origin story. I just pointed it out as part of the article I linked. As well as a pre-written history fact that obviously predates the written history you're referencing. In case the poster I responded to might find it interesting. And then I posted an imaginative theory based on a D&D perspective.
Yes but Elminster did not amass great personal wealth or even renown by importing cats and cheeses in the the Realms to the degree that they all became household names while keeping their English referents intact.
He lends his name to a lot of DMs Guild Forgotten Realm stuff, and also his writing. Some of it is rehashing of old material, but there's also original stuff.
Regardless, he didn't take Elminster of a tour of the world's cheese mongeries, maybe a pet shelter at some point.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Ha, I should really know this stuff, especially since I'm taking a class on Copyright. Anyways thanks for clearing that up for me.
A role-player since birth, and one of the lowest forms of life on the planet. Fun!
1: He's still very active in the community, and still writes books. His likeness is even found in videos games every now and again, Larian I saw what you guys did in BG3.
2. Any given DM can do a homebrew setting that doesn't fit any lore or rules in D&D. But when talking D&D lore, we are not talking Homebrew, the movie is more canon than your game.
3. ok this is too short a place for this kind of reply. But....
Forgotten Realms was always an Isekai setting, way back in the 80s TSR Ed Greenwood, and all the people writing D&D intended the game to be set on a parallel Earth, Toril is Based on Earth, the old Cosmology maps from Spelljammer even gave the location of Earth. Sure a bunch of old lore has been dropped from "canon" but the inclusion of the Easter Egg Cartoon characters in the Movie, and the movie being declared official canon, means means the 80s intended isekai status of D&D is still true. There is several Earth Pantheons in Toril mostly Egypt and Babylon, and there are humans from Earth falling into the setting often enough for words and names from Earth to stick.
As for the cat, the Grinning Cat is the common name of the creature, and an apt description of what it is. The Cheshire Cat, a Grinning Cat, is named for a Region of north England (County Cheshire) famous for cats and cheese, and rolling hills small villages, and lots of green grass. The concept of a Grinning cat from Cheshire goes back almost 200 years. (maybe more) as it's tied to a local fairy tale, set in ... Cheshire.
The Feywild connects all lands and oceans of the material plain, you could according to D&D lore, step out of your mundane home here on Earth, fall through a crack in reality, and land in the Feywild, Toril, or the Shadowfel, it's what happened in the Cartoon, still canon characters BTW. According to D&D lore, Wonderland is probably in the Feywild, Oz is probably on another world in the same dimension as Toril (or even an area on the other continent of one of the other worlds in D&D canon)
Elminster makes trips to Earth because he loves new things, and well our food is great, and he loves small soft animals.
Good god, that is a lot of info.
A role-player since birth, and one of the lowest forms of life on the planet. Fun!
This article for Cheshire Live may interest you. Cheshire cheese was (according to legend) originally sold in cat like shapes. Pre-written history, the tribe that lived in Cheshire had a cat for a their spirit animal/mascot. There is a carving of a cat on a church that has been designed to appear to disappear when shadows fall upon it, but it doesn't grin.
What has clearly happened is that a Grinning Cat from the Feywild made its way to Earth and lived for a time in what would be known as the Cheshire. Since Fey are not known for giving their true names, Cheshire is likely the name the Grinning Cat gave or was given to it by whatever mortal first encountered it and probably ended up making a pact (s)he shouldn't have. So here we are, centuries or even millennia later, with a descendant of that Grinning Cat's warlock trying to get the name changed.
You're not fooling us, Jona.
Ahhh crap. How'd you figure it out???
A role-player since birth, and one of the lowest forms of life on the planet. Fun!
I see. You're another descendant of the warlock and you're making the case that Wikipedia is Fey Propaganda.
There appear to be a fairly large number of theories about the origin of the Cheshire cat. Another is a carving on St Wilfrid's Church.
Yes, I did not expect this to become a debate space about the Cheshire cat, but it organically grew it that, so I most certainly am not going to interfere.
A role-player since birth, and one of the lowest forms of life on the planet. Fun!
A classical dictionary of the vulgar tongue 1796
P.55 Cheshire Cat. He grins like a Cheshire Cat; said of any one who shews his teeth and gums in laughing
60 odd years before Alice.
Eh, to me just because Cheshire is place in England doesn't give them a monopoly on the word forever. Words can mean different things, even while referencing something else a player would understand.
In my fey campaign there is a creature called a Cheshire. It does not initially present itself as a cat, but that doesn't mean it can't be a cat when it wants to be. It might even be THE cat. It's not supposed to be fully understood and it's not even required to fully make sense. That's kind of the whole deal with Alice in Wonderland, and by extension the Feywild that it helped to inspire.
That being said, I have no problem with WotC writing up a generic version. I think it helps to encourage players to put their own spin on it rather than just kind of reenact scenes from known media.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
As I write this from a house in Cheshire containing several cats... I can confirm that they are tricksy, toothy and mischievous fey creatures one and all.
It's not that the location has a monopoly on the word, the issue is that using something that references a real-world location in a fictional setting that doesn't have a tie to the real world can be immersion-breaking for many people. It would be jarring to see, for example, a Tasmanian devil or Yorkshire pudding randomly referenced in a module set in Greyhawk. Much easier to just give them names that are generic and descriptions that tell us what they're supposed to be.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Wow... that joke seriously went over your head, Kotath. Twice. That's ok. My jokes are really just for me anyways.
Just to clarify, at no point did I claim the cheese being cut into cat shapes was any sort of origin story. I just pointed it out as part of the article I linked. As well as a pre-written history fact that obviously predates the written history you're referencing. In case the poster I responded to might find it interesting. And then I posted an imaginative theory based on a D&D perspective.