I'm posting this here because I don't really know which category this falls into. As the title says, I'm not sure. Is a retcon considered metagaming? Obviously, this might be situational or depend on whether its a player or a DM doing it. Of course, DM's always get the final say if said retcon would even be aloud in the case of a player. I'd assume minor, trivial things wouldn't be a huge deal, but metagaming is a big no no and in my specific case, as a player, don't want to ask for a retcon that might be metagaming or borderline metagaming with potential for notable change in the course of the plot. Even asking could possibly put the DM in a situation where telling me no reveals whether my requested retcon would be of pivotable importance storyline wise. Specifically, there was an item my character found and then forgot to identify during the following uneventful (more or less skipped through) day of travel. Now we come back and left off in a situation where knowing what the item is could be crucial. I know the item is of some importance because the DM made sure to tell me not to have it get lost in my notes only to be rediscovered months later. Can I, in good conscience, ask to have identified the item during our previous day of uneventful travel or do I keep my mouth shut and see what happens? Any opinions on that specific situation or just the topic in general?
This might be controversial, but metagaming is not good or bad on its own. The good or bad comes from the intention and the consequences of the action.
Most metagaming is characterized as bad because players are using out-of-game knowledge to make the characters behave in ways they normally shouldn't. I would argue that the above instance is almost the opposite of that - as a consequence of your group basically skipping through a day of travel, you as a player didn't think about the item while your character would have been carrying it and likely thinking about it the whole day.
Now a lot of DMs that probably consider themselves "old-school" would say no, you absolutely can not retcon because this is metagaming. But I'd argue that they're not doing it to preserve the verisimilitude of the game world but rather are metagaming themselves with the rationale that if the player forgot about it, the player should be punished for that. And when examining the intention of that kind of metagaming, I find it toxic and thus the "bad" kind.
So in short, when I come across situations like this I ask myself what the characters would have done. In a case like this they absolutely would have taken 11 minutes out of an entire downtime day to identify the mysterious magical item they found. So retcon away. But also as a DM (or as another player in the game), I would have tried to remember to prompt the player during that travel day to do it.
Some cases are not so clear cut though. In those instances, it can't hurt to just bring it up with the DM and see what they think. Worst case they just say no and you move on.
To somewhat agree with scatterbraind, it really depends on how quickly that "uneventful day" was skipped through. If it was a session of downtime where people talked about what they wanted to do, etc then I'd say tough luck. But if it was handwaved away in a matter of minutes then I'd probably let you retcon that.
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I know what you're thinking: "In that flurry of blows, did he use all his ki points, or save one?" Well, are ya feeling lucky, punk?
In general, if an action was something that a character had planned to do in town then I have no issue with doing a retcon to say that they accomplished it even if the player forgot. Especially if's something based on a situation that came up before they got to town. Unless there was some sort of circumstance that would have stopped them, like discovering that the town had been infiltrated by dopplegangers and the party got framed for murder and had to leave town with an angry mob on their heels, I figure that yes, they had time to do what they needed to.
That being said, absolutely nothing that I or anyone else says here actually matters in your game- ask your GM.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
I wouldn't call this metagaming at all. You realized after the fact that you (the player) forgot to declare an action that your character likely would have taken, until after the session was over. It is a totally fair question to ask a DM if you can say that you remembered to identify the item, but also totally fair for them to say No.
That said, Identify only takes a minute to cast, why not just cast it first thing in your next session? Does the timing actually matter?
It's a bit fallacious to cry "slippery slope" at this point; whole tables do occasionally forget a plot point they meant to address, and it's entirely reasonable to back up a little and address that point. That doesn't really mean the gate is open for players to start abusing it, that's just the DM correcting a collective oversight.
It’s worth asking. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve been in a game where a trap goes off, and the rogue’s player says, but I’m always looking for traps. Or at a table where someone says, Of course we looted the bodies at that random encounter three days ago before we left the area. Everyone in D&D knows to loot all the bodies all the time. Sometimes the DM goes with it, sometimes not. Even the best role player forgets things their character would remember.
And it’s not necessarily the DM tipping their hand about the item either way. It’s just whether or not they allow you to do the retcon. You might even message the DM privately between sessions. That way if you are worried it’s some kind of spoiler, it’s only you who gets spoiled and not the whole party.
I agree with most of the points raised. My checklist would look something like this:
Has any playing time actually past? If so, how long?
If gameplay time has passed, have any events transpired that would have gone differently if the retconned action had taken place? If so, are all parties happy to accept that those events remain as-is even if the retcon takes place?
Are we playing a metagame where the player's skills and abilities are on test (more about that later)?
Does the retcon require additional resources to be spent?
Does the retcon necessitate a change to what's already been done?
Is the retcon inline with what the character, rather than the player, would have done?
Does the retcon make the game more or less fun for the players?
First, it's worth noting that the last point, whether the retcon makes things more or less fun, is the important one. It seems incredibly often that people disagree, but D&D is a game, not an exam. It's meant to be fun. So the dominant question is, which option makes it more fun? There's no straightforward and universal answer to that, it's a case-by-case job, but it's the main question.
Second, in this specific circumstance, and in many in general, I'd actually argue that not granting the retcon would be metagaming. It would mean that the player's capabilities and skills are being tested, not the character's. That makes it metagaming. The question should be whether the character remembers, not the player.
As a note on the discussion, preventing the slippery slope is precisely why DMs should be impartial abd not part of the party, if it can be helped. Their role is to prevent slippery slopes, not by refusing to make calls on what's fun (that's central to their job), but by making those calls and simultaneously ensuring that it doesn't slide into a slippery slope and becoming an anything goes scenario. They're there to ensure that you can say "Yes, you can do that" but then being able to say later "but that's going too far".
You don't need a DM to say "no, never", you need the DM to discern between "this is acceptable and will actually make things fun" and "yeah, this is just going to make the game suck". DMs that refuse to be that arbiter (by always saying yes or always saying no) are shirking their duties as DM. I can get an LLM to be DM if that's what the DM is doing.
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If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
As has been mentioned but it's worth saying again - metagaming isn't inherently bad either. I'll happily metagame and influence my character's actions to help direct the game forward. I won't go against my character, but I will happily go for a viable choice that helps the DM.
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If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
As a DM I assume my players are going to loot like kobold they will take anything not nailed and will comeback with crowbars to get anything that is nailed down if it is valuable. I assume they are going to either identify items themselves or get them identified when they get to an appropriately sized town. I assume they are looking for traps, secret doors and surprises. That being said there are times when someone does not hear something i say, i don't hear what they say, or there is a misunderstanding of the situation in game and i will dial back time. this is a normal and reasonable use of retconning. However if it becomes an every session thing there is a problem
I think it’s completely fine to ask. My DM would allow it in this situation, I believe. It would be something your character would do even if you, the player forgot.
It’s one thing to retcon because you, the player, forgot to say you would identify the item and there was appropriate time to do so during travel. It would be a completely different thing if it was something like you cast fire spell on an enemy and your DM says they don’t seem affected and you want to go back and change it to a cold spell.
I'm posting this here because I don't really know which category this falls into. As the title says, I'm not sure. Is a retcon considered metagaming? Obviously, this might be situational or depend on whether its a player or a DM doing it. Of course, DM's always get the final say if said retcon would even be aloud in the case of a player. I'd assume minor, trivial things wouldn't be a huge deal, but metagaming is a big no no and in my specific case, as a player, don't want to ask for a retcon that might be metagaming or borderline metagaming with potential for notable change in the course of the plot. Even asking could possibly put the DM in a situation where telling me no reveals whether my requested retcon would be of pivotable importance storyline wise. Specifically, there was an item my character found and then forgot to identify during the following uneventful (more or less skipped through) day of travel. Now we come back and left off in a situation where knowing what the item is could be crucial. I know the item is of some importance because the DM made sure to tell me not to have it get lost in my notes only to be rediscovered months later. Can I, in good conscience, ask to have identified the item during our previous day of uneventful travel or do I keep my mouth shut and see what happens? Any opinions on that specific situation or just the topic in general?
I don't think it's bad metagaminng to ask for such retcon, it can even help in the campaign if the DM thought that at that point you would have identified the item already.
You can ask, and the DM can accept or refuse and say you will have to spend the time to do so when you want to identify it. Is it supposed to be a long process in general or you're talking about the identify spell because it only takes 1 or 11 minute to cast?
Thank you all for your insight! I did decide to ask if the retcon would be okay and the DM said yes. You all brought up some great points, especially that the character would have remembered to ID the item during that day of travel. For those interested, it turned out to be a potion of supreme healing! Nothing plot crucial, but depending on how the next session goes (because parties or party members can always suddenly decide to try and solve their problems with violence), could make the difference between life and death. Wish me luck!
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I'm posting this here because I don't really know which category this falls into. As the title says, I'm not sure. Is a retcon considered metagaming? Obviously, this might be situational or depend on whether its a player or a DM doing it. Of course, DM's always get the final say if said retcon would even be aloud in the case of a player. I'd assume minor, trivial things wouldn't be a huge deal, but metagaming is a big no no and in my specific case, as a player, don't want to ask for a retcon that might be metagaming or borderline metagaming with potential for notable change in the course of the plot. Even asking could possibly put the DM in a situation where telling me no reveals whether my requested retcon would be of pivotable importance storyline wise. Specifically, there was an item my character found and then forgot to identify during the following uneventful (more or less skipped through) day of travel. Now we come back and left off in a situation where knowing what the item is could be crucial. I know the item is of some importance because the DM made sure to tell me not to have it get lost in my notes only to be rediscovered months later. Can I, in good conscience, ask to have identified the item during our previous day of uneventful travel or do I keep my mouth shut and see what happens? Any opinions on that specific situation or just the topic in general?
This might be controversial, but metagaming is not good or bad on its own. The good or bad comes from the intention and the consequences of the action.
Most metagaming is characterized as bad because players are using out-of-game knowledge to make the characters behave in ways they normally shouldn't. I would argue that the above instance is almost the opposite of that - as a consequence of your group basically skipping through a day of travel, you as a player didn't think about the item while your character would have been carrying it and likely thinking about it the whole day.
Now a lot of DMs that probably consider themselves "old-school" would say no, you absolutely can not retcon because this is metagaming. But I'd argue that they're not doing it to preserve the verisimilitude of the game world but rather are metagaming themselves with the rationale that if the player forgot about it, the player should be punished for that. And when examining the intention of that kind of metagaming, I find it toxic and thus the "bad" kind.
So in short, when I come across situations like this I ask myself what the characters would have done. In a case like this they absolutely would have taken 11 minutes out of an entire downtime day to identify the mysterious magical item they found. So retcon away. But also as a DM (or as another player in the game), I would have tried to remember to prompt the player during that travel day to do it.
Some cases are not so clear cut though. In those instances, it can't hurt to just bring it up with the DM and see what they think. Worst case they just say no and you move on.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
To somewhat agree with scatterbraind, it really depends on how quickly that "uneventful day" was skipped through. If it was a session of downtime where people talked about what they wanted to do, etc then I'd say tough luck. But if it was handwaved away in a matter of minutes then I'd probably let you retcon that.
I know what you're thinking: "In that flurry of blows, did he use all his ki points, or save one?" Well, are ya feeling lucky, punk?
In general, if an action was something that a character had planned to do in town then I have no issue with doing a retcon to say that they accomplished it even if the player forgot. Especially if's something based on a situation that came up before they got to town. Unless there was some sort of circumstance that would have stopped them, like discovering that the town had been infiltrated by dopplegangers and the party got framed for murder and had to leave town with an angry mob on their heels, I figure that yes, they had time to do what they needed to.
That being said, absolutely nothing that I or anyone else says here actually matters in your game- ask your GM.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
I wouldn't call this metagaming at all. You realized after the fact that you (the player) forgot to declare an action that your character likely would have taken, until after the session was over. It is a totally fair question to ask a DM if you can say that you remembered to identify the item, but also totally fair for them to say No.
That said, Identify only takes a minute to cast, why not just cast it first thing in your next session? Does the timing actually matter?
It's a bit fallacious to cry "slippery slope" at this point; whole tables do occasionally forget a plot point they meant to address, and it's entirely reasonable to back up a little and address that point. That doesn't really mean the gate is open for players to start abusing it, that's just the DM correcting a collective oversight.
It’s worth asking. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve been in a game where a trap goes off, and the rogue’s player says, but I’m always looking for traps. Or at a table where someone says, Of course we looted the bodies at that random encounter three days ago before we left the area. Everyone in D&D knows to loot all the bodies all the time. Sometimes the DM goes with it, sometimes not.
Even the best role player forgets things their character would remember.
And it’s not necessarily the DM tipping their hand about the item either way. It’s just whether or not they allow you to do the retcon. You might even message the DM privately between sessions. That way if you are worried it’s some kind of spoiler, it’s only you who gets spoiled and not the whole party.
I agree with most of the points raised. My checklist would look something like this:
First, it's worth noting that the last point, whether the retcon makes things more or less fun, is the important one. It seems incredibly often that people disagree, but D&D is a game, not an exam. It's meant to be fun. So the dominant question is, which option makes it more fun? There's no straightforward and universal answer to that, it's a case-by-case job, but it's the main question.
Second, in this specific circumstance, and in many in general, I'd actually argue that not granting the retcon would be metagaming. It would mean that the player's capabilities and skills are being tested, not the character's. That makes it metagaming. The question should be whether the character remembers, not the player.
As a note on the discussion, preventing the slippery slope is precisely why DMs should be impartial abd not part of the party, if it can be helped. Their role is to prevent slippery slopes, not by refusing to make calls on what's fun (that's central to their job), but by making those calls and simultaneously ensuring that it doesn't slide into a slippery slope and becoming an anything goes scenario. They're there to ensure that you can say "Yes, you can do that" but then being able to say later "but that's going too far".
You don't need a DM to say "no, never", you need the DM to discern between "this is acceptable and will actually make things fun" and "yeah, this is just going to make the game suck". DMs that refuse to be that arbiter (by always saying yes or always saying no) are shirking their duties as DM. I can get an LLM to be DM if that's what the DM is doing.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
As has been mentioned but it's worth saying again - metagaming isn't inherently bad either. I'll happily metagame and influence my character's actions to help direct the game forward. I won't go against my character, but I will happily go for a viable choice that helps the DM.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
As a DM I assume my players are going to loot like kobold they will take anything not nailed and will comeback with crowbars to get anything that is nailed down if it is valuable. I assume they are going to either identify items themselves or get them identified when they get to an appropriately sized town. I assume they are looking for traps, secret doors and surprises. That being said there are times when someone does not hear something i say, i don't hear what they say, or there is a misunderstanding of the situation in game and i will dial back time. this is a normal and reasonable use of retconning. However if it becomes an every session thing there is a problem
I think it’s completely fine to ask. My DM would allow it in this situation, I believe. It would be something your character would do even if you, the player forgot.
It’s one thing to retcon because you, the player, forgot to say you would identify the item and there was appropriate time to do so during travel. It would be a completely different thing if it was something like you cast fire spell on an enemy and your DM says they don’t seem affected and you want to go back and change it to a cold spell.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
I don't think it's bad metagaminng to ask for such retcon, it can even help in the campaign if the DM thought that at that point you would have identified the item already.
You can ask, and the DM can accept or refuse and say you will have to spend the time to do so when you want to identify it. Is it supposed to be a long process in general or you're talking about the identify spell because it only takes 1 or 11 minute to cast?
Thank you all for your insight! I did decide to ask if the retcon would be okay and the DM said yes. You all brought up some great points, especially that the character would have remembered to ID the item during that day of travel. For those interested, it turned out to be a potion of supreme healing! Nothing plot crucial, but depending on how the next session goes (because parties or party members can always suddenly decide to try and solve their problems with violence), could make the difference between life and death. Wish me luck!