I would buy the retail store argument more if online retailers like Amazon didn't exist.
That's probably a big part of why retail stores are set up to be able to be selling the books before online retailers can ship them; as that makes retail stores the go-to for all customer priorities other than "It has to be digital or I'm not getting it" and "I don't care when I get, I just want it at the lowest price point available"
From my experience in retail, which I'll admit is limited, stores don't consider people that aren't willing to pay the price the store sets for something as "hurt sales" - they consider them not to be potential sales in the first place.
For me personally that time is irrelevant as I wouldn't be spending $50 on a D&D book. The cost why I don't buy from Brick and Mortar stores to begin with. In other words I'll spend $35 for a D&D book not $50 so if I have to pay $50 I'm not buying the book to begin with.
Of course as a player $35 is already a bit high for adventure books with three pages of player options.
From my experience in retail, which I'll admit is limited, stores don't consider people that aren't willing to pay the price the store sets for something as "hurt sales" - they consider them not to be potential sales in the first place.
While it is entirely possible that stores are likely to think this way, it is a horrible way to think. You could potentially make more money by lowering prices $5 (more sales) than increasing prices $5 (Less sales). For most Brick and Mortar stores lowering prices to $40 could actually be enough to make most people buy from them rather than Amazon. $5 more for the book today isn't that bad (especially if you are only buying d&d books and prime wouldn't be valuable). This means they could potentially make a lot more money and actually beat Amazon. In my experience most people who order from Amazon over a retail store do so because they can't afford the higher prices.
All this to say I think PDFs don't harm the market for the physical books (as much as thought, granted WotC probably has actual numbers with their previous PDFs), as the $50 cost of the physical book was probably already a barrier to buying it
The real issue is did WotC wake up one day and was like, hmm, these PDFs are hurting brick and mortar stores?
Paizo does PDFs just fine, and they make money off them. PDF versions will exist no matter what, its just lost revenue on WotC's part. Its very backwards thinking to assume that "if we don't make it, the problem won't exist."
Maybe Wizards feels that helping the local stores that have been their lifeblood is preferable to helping people not buy their books. Crazy talk, I know.
My FLGS happens to sell their books around Amazon prices. People who would pirate rather than help them out disgust me.
Maybe Wizards feels that helping the local stores that have been their lifeblood is preferable to helping people not buy their books. Crazy talk, I know.
My FLGS happens to sell their books around Amazon prices. People who would pirate rather than help them out disgust me.
This assume that PDFs won't help out FLGS and will prevent FLGS from selling books. There is a good portion of people who would probably end up purchasing both, assuming the PDFs are a reasonable price. One could argue that having PDFs may influence your decision to run a game at a FLGs to begin with (Lots of books mean a) they aren't used or b) you have to move them, so if you want to use the books running at your house could seem better), which could actually increase the demand for books as more people are introduced to D&D.
Maybe Wizards feels that helping the local stores that have been their lifeblood is preferable to helping people not buy their books. Crazy talk, I know.
My FLGS happens to sell their books around Amazon prices. People who would pirate rather than help them out disgust me.
I simply cannot understand this attitude and it's been around for over a decade: just because you have PDFs doesn't mean that:
You pirate books
Don't also want to buy the book version
You cannot help out local game shops
If every registered game shop (e.g. shop that runs WoTC events) could offer free PDF download links with their books, then that would give them an advantage over Amazon, who WoTC wouldn't provide those for. Now the $50~$60 price tag at the game shop at least has a value add that many people want.
If WoTC sold a PDF, they would have made money off of me three times for Storm King's Thunder alone:
Book sale
Roll20 license fee
PDF sale
People want a PDF version because it is:
Easy to transport
Easy to search
Easy to make custom bookmarks
Easy to make customized books with only the rules for your character
Do people pirate the PDF version? Of course. Those aren't lost sales though; those are people that were not going to buy the book, regardless of format.
I like to help out my local bookstore, but I'm not going to pay $30 more for a book. Fortunately, they have a good used market, so I can support them that way.
Maybe Wizards feels that helping the local stores that have been their lifeblood is preferable to helping people not buy their books. Crazy talk, I know.
My FLGS happens to sell their books around Amazon prices. People who would pirate rather than help them out disgust me.
D&D book sales aren't what is keeping the lights on at the FLGS. Usually, its that other WotC product.
While it is entirely possible that stores are likely to think this way, it is a horrible way to think. You could potentially make more money by lowering prices $5 (more sales) than increasing prices $5 (Less sales). For most Brick and Mortar stores lowering prices to $40 could actually be enough to make most people buy from them rather than Amazon. $5 more for the book today isn't that bad (especially if you are only buying d&d books and prime wouldn't be valuable). This means they could potentially make a lot more money and actually beat Amazon. In my experience most people who order from Amazon over a retail store do so because they can't afford the higher prices.
It's not "a horrible way to think." Yes, dropping the price has the potential to move more units - but you have to consider that dropping the price to the customer decreases the profit, so there is a specific amount of additional sales needed in order to bring what the company makes off the product back up to their "is worth making the product" benchmark. So unless the company has some way to be absolutely certain they will move that higher volume of product at the lower price, it's a gamble.
And you contradict yourself when you say that FLGS lowering their price to only $5 more than Amazon would get people buying at their FLGS, and that the reason people aren't buying from their FLGS is that they can't afford to pay higher than Amazon prices.
You're absolutely correct Aaron. Even at a reasonable price like my FLGS some will choose to say "I need to play this game, but won't pay money" and steal it. It's like that with movies and music too. Self justification for taking what isn't theirs with no contribution to those who work hard to bring content to us.
I'm glad that WotC is supporting the hard working local stores that give us a place to play socially. I know my local owner and he's a great guy who needs whatever sale he can. Even while dropping the price to as low or below Amazon, only free is good enough for some people. The very concept of paying people for their work is apparently against the core of what some people believe.
I was drawn back into the RPG world after manyyears away by the Pathfinder Humble PDF Bundles, ended up buying the Beginners box and the Hardback Core rule book. Similarly, the 5e Basic Rules PDF made me buy the D&D Starter box and once I see some of the 5e books going cheap, I'll buy them. The existence of the PDF files helped me to make the decision to buy more, not less.
Note that I bought the stuff online as they had the very best prices, rather than either of my local Games stores.
both fantasy ground and roll20 software are free ! you dont pay for their softwares and the databases are already nicely placed for easy references.
as for DMsGuild... do you realise they literally created their own website to actually sell those PDF in order to not have to give any money to other companies who do the very same thing ? thats the reason why they did it in the first place. because they wanted to be able to resell more stuff but had enough of drive thru rpg who were sucking out most of their profits. seriously you didn't see this one coming ? they been trying to sell PDF for like 10 years now. never worked well because of other companies. now they have their own. but guess what, the PDF for on DMsGuild cost the same amount as the physical copy still.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
DM of two gaming groups. Likes to create stuff. Check out my homebrew --> Monsters --> Magical Items --> Races --> Subclasses If you like --> Upvote, If you wanna comment --> Comment
Play by Post Games --> One Shot Adventure - House of Artwood (DM) (Completed)
as for DMsGuild... do you realise they literally created their own website to actually sell those PDF in order to not have to give any money to other companies who do the very same thing ? thats the reason why they did it in the first place. because they wanted to be able to resell more stuff but had enough of drive thru rpg who were sucking out most of their profits.
DMsGuild is Drivethru RPG - they are both OneBookShelf webstores. It says so right on the "About Us" page for either.
The reason why there is a DMs Guild separate from Drivethru RPG or RPGNow is so that content can be filtered - it's D&D-focused by default, rather than after you filter by rule system - and so Wizards of the Coast can offer up the special permissions that they do so people can use content that is not considered open game content in their own commercial products.
both fantasy ground and roll20 software are free ! you dont pay for their softwares and the databases are already nicely placed for easy references.
as for DMsGuild... do you realise they literally created their own website to actually sell those PDF in order to not have to give any money to other companies who do the very same thing ? thats the reason why they did it in the first place. because they wanted to be able to resell more stuff but had enough of drive thru rpg who were sucking out most of their profits. seriously you didn't see this one coming ? they been trying to sell PDF for like 10 years now. never worked well because of other companies. now they have their own. but guess what, the PDF for on DMsGuild cost the same amount as the physical copy still.
Fantasy Ground and Roll 20 are ABSOLUTELY not free. free are the Basic Rules and the SRD.
i know they are the same webspace. but they actually aren't the same place. proof is that RPGNow and Drivethru RPG literally have the very same materials to sell. DMsGuild is much more them the it is the others. reality being that its a webspace and a webspace is not the same as passing thru a webspace for selling. best exemple of that would be.. your neightbor creates a website on say... google... passing thru your neighbor actually cost you something cause you are using his website. then your neighbor pays for the space. now if you create directly on the space itself. you dont need your neighbor anymore. and thus you can sell without giving anything to him. you only need to pay your webspace provider. this is what DMsGuild does ! yes they use the space of others and rent it. but reality is, its their vision and their site. thus they literally save money by doing it themselves.
now they already sell their books of 5e on the DMsGuild, why would i want to buy them here ? and yes, if they update them with errata and all, you get the updated version. its a pay once get it all. once you know all this you have to wonder why is this even needed ? answer to that is digital tools, it failed back 2 years ago. now they are trying to make them on their own and save on the money. problem, for that to work, they need a system that works. they are not sure their system will work. hence why they do beta. problem, even with beta. showing us the SRD is nothing and only discourages people already. because SRD is everywhere and has been for at least a year. problem, without people wanting this because they are discouraged, the tools might not happen at all. Problem, tools that i can already have on my phone, tablette and all. because tons of people develops. problem, what kind of app can they create that is worth paying for when the developpers of the last 2 years have already thought everything up ?
Remember we're living in a world where apps that do it all cost 5$ as a one time fee. i doubt them to have that kind of fee here.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
DM of two gaming groups. Likes to create stuff. Check out my homebrew --> Monsters --> Magical Items --> Races --> Subclasses If you like --> Upvote, If you wanna comment --> Comment
Play by Post Games --> One Shot Adventure - House of Artwood (DM) (Completed)
i know they are the same webspace. but they actually aren't the same place. proof is that RPGNow and Drivethru RPG literally have the very same materials to sell.
Anything on DMsGuild that isn't uploaded under the specific DMsGuild content option, such as the PDFs of WotC products (including the TSR product lines) is also available on Drivethru RPG (here's a 2nd edition book as evidence), and RPGNow (here's what seems to be the latest Adventurer's League adventure as evidence).
As I said, the only difference for DM's Guild are the pre-filtered D&D-only contents, and the special licensing of being able to use WotC intellectual property. There is no added quantity of "doing it themselves", as the site is still run by OneBookShelf - not Wizard's of the Coast. Which is also why my single log-in I made a decade ago for Drivethru RPG gets me into the DM's Guild store (and all the other OneBookShelf stores).
First of all, if somebody is really scared of piracy then that person/company should sell products that can't be copied. Because no matter what you do, if you are in a market that sells stuff that can be copied, then there will be piracy. Not liking the reality doesn't make it go away.
Got it. So, don't sell PDFs because they're super-easy to put up on file-sharing sites anonymously. Good plan. Looks like WotC is taking your advice.
1. From DNDBeyond, in your browser, click "Print" and "Save as PDF". Now you have PDFs of your content.
First of all, if somebody is really scared of piracy then that person/company should sell products that can't be copied. Because no matter what you do, if you are in a market that sells stuff that can be copied, then there will be piracy. Not liking the reality doesn't make it go away.
Got it. So, don't sell PDFs because they're super-easy to put up on file-sharing sites anonymously. Good plan. Looks like WotC is taking your advice.
1. From DNDBeyond, in your browser, click "Print" and "Save as PDF". Now you have PDFs of your content.
2. #threadnecromancy!
I just DL the books into my DDB App and read them on that, I have my phone, tablet, and chromebook so every book I buy here at DDB I get 3 copies of the book. Having 3 copies of every book at the game table is super great when playing. It is massively better then having PDF versions of the books as I can search all the books at 1 time for stuff.
Paizo does PDFs just fine, and they make money off them. PDF versions will exist no matter what, its just lost revenue on WotC's part. Its very backwards thinking to assume that "if we don't make it, the problem won't exist."
Maybe Wizards feels that helping the local stores that have been their lifeblood is preferable to helping people not buy their books. Crazy talk, I know.
My FLGS happens to sell their books around Amazon prices. People who would pirate rather than help them out disgust me.
If every registered game shop (e.g. shop that runs WoTC events) could offer free PDF download links with their books, then that would give them an advantage over Amazon, who WoTC wouldn't provide those for. Now the $50~$60 price tag at the game shop at least has a value add that many people want.
If WoTC sold a PDF, they would have made money off of me three times for Storm King's Thunder alone:
People want a PDF version because it is:
Do people pirate the PDF version? Of course. Those aren't lost sales though; those are people that were not going to buy the book, regardless of format.
I like to help out my local bookstore, but I'm not going to pay $30 more for a book. Fortunately, they have a good used market, so I can support them that way.
You're absolutely correct Aaron. Even at a reasonable price like my FLGS some will choose to say "I need to play this game, but won't pay money" and steal it. It's like that with movies and music too. Self justification for taking what isn't theirs with no contribution to those who work hard to bring content to us.
I'm glad that WotC is supporting the hard working local stores that give us a place to play socially. I know my local owner and he's a great guy who needs whatever sale he can. Even while dropping the price to as low or below Amazon, only free is good enough for some people. The very concept of paying people for their work is apparently against the core of what some people believe.
I was drawn back into the RPG world after many years away by the Pathfinder Humble PDF Bundles, ended up buying the Beginners box and the Hardback Core rule book. Similarly, the 5e Basic Rules PDF made me buy the D&D Starter box and once I see some of the 5e books going cheap, I'll buy them. The existence of the PDF files helped me to make the decision to buy more, not less.
Note that I bought the stuff online as they had the very best prices, rather than either of my local Games stores.
And that's why the Basic Rules were free. Advanced stuff they wanted to actually make money on. Only seems fair to me.
both fantasy ground and roll20 software are free !
you dont pay for their softwares and the databases are already nicely placed for easy references.
as for DMsGuild... do you realise they literally created their own website to actually sell those PDF in order to not have to give any money to other companies who do the very same thing ? thats the reason why they did it in the first place. because they wanted to be able to resell more stuff but had enough of drive thru rpg who were sucking out most of their profits. seriously you didn't see this one coming ? they been trying to sell PDF for like 10 years now. never worked well because of other companies. now they have their own. but guess what, the PDF for on DMsGuild cost the same amount as the physical copy still.
DM of two gaming groups.
Likes to create stuff.
Check out my homebrew --> Monsters --> Magical Items --> Races --> Subclasses
If you like --> Upvote, If you wanna comment --> Comment
Play by Post Games
--> One Shot Adventure - House of Artwood (DM) (Completed)
i know they are the same webspace. but they actually aren't the same place.
proof is that RPGNow and Drivethru RPG literally have the very same materials to sell. DMsGuild is much more them the it is the others. reality being that its a webspace and a webspace is not the same as passing thru a webspace for selling. best exemple of that would be.. your neightbor creates a website on say... google... passing thru your neighbor actually cost you something cause you are using his website. then your neighbor pays for the space. now if you create directly on the space itself. you dont need your neighbor anymore. and thus you can sell without giving anything to him. you only need to pay your webspace provider. this is what DMsGuild does ! yes they use the space of others and rent it. but reality is, its their vision and their site. thus they literally save money by doing it themselves.
now they already sell their books of 5e on the DMsGuild, why would i want to buy them here ?
and yes, if they update them with errata and all, you get the updated version. its a pay once get it all.
once you know all this you have to wonder why is this even needed ?
answer to that is digital tools, it failed back 2 years ago. now they are trying to make them on their own and save on the money.
problem, for that to work, they need a system that works. they are not sure their system will work. hence why they do beta.
problem, even with beta. showing us the SRD is nothing and only discourages people already. because SRD is everywhere and has been for at least a year.
problem, without people wanting this because they are discouraged, the tools might not happen at all.
Problem, tools that i can already have on my phone, tablette and all. because tons of people develops.
problem, what kind of app can they create that is worth paying for when the developpers of the last 2 years have already thought everything up ?
Remember we're living in a world where apps that do it all cost 5$ as a one time fee.
i doubt them to have that kind of fee here.
DM of two gaming groups.
Likes to create stuff.
Check out my homebrew --> Monsters --> Magical Items --> Races --> Subclasses
If you like --> Upvote, If you wanna comment --> Comment
Play by Post Games
--> One Shot Adventure - House of Artwood (DM) (Completed)
Anything on DMsGuild that isn't uploaded under the specific DMsGuild content option, such as the PDFs of WotC products (including the TSR product lines) is also available on Drivethru RPG (here's a 2nd edition book as evidence), and RPGNow (here's what seems to be the latest Adventurer's League adventure as evidence).
As I said, the only difference for DM's Guild are the pre-filtered D&D-only contents, and the special licensing of being able to use WotC intellectual property. There is no added quantity of "doing it themselves", as the site is still run by OneBookShelf - not Wizard's of the Coast. Which is also why my single log-in I made a decade ago for Drivethru RPG gets me into the DM's Guild store (and all the other OneBookShelf stores).
Got it. So, don't sell PDFs because they're super-easy to put up on file-sharing sites anonymously. Good plan. Looks like WotC is taking your advice.
1. From DNDBeyond, in your browser, click "Print" and "Save as PDF". Now you have PDFs of your content.
2. #threadnecromancy!
I just DL the books into my DDB App and read them on that, I have my phone, tablet, and chromebook so every book I buy here at DDB I get 3 copies of the book. Having 3 copies of every book at the game table is super great when playing. It is massively better then having PDF versions of the books as I can search all the books at 1 time for stuff.
-
View User Profile
-
View Posts
-
Send Message
ModeratorThank you all for your contributions. This thread has died of old age. Let's not dabble in the dark arts such as necromancy and let it rest in peace.
Thanks again for understanding.
Homebrew Rules || Homebrew FAQ || Snippet Codes || Tooltips
DDB Guides & FAQs, Class Guides, Character Builds, Game Guides, Useful Websites, and WOTC Resources