I'm a DM, and my group has built their characters using UA rules on this, specifically our tiefling has assamar traits. Since we are now nearing the end of the Avernus campaign no way am I going to change his character now. I'm disappointed it's not in the PHB, and I really hope this is in the DMG, because it's a great way to make hybrid characters.
I would expect some sort of species creation rules in the DMG, but the rules from UA were probably overly limited to be worth putting in the DMG, it's basically an assertion "You can make cosmetic alterations to a species".
I'm a DM, and my group has built their characters using UA rules on this, specifically our tiefling has assamar traits. Since we are now nearing the end of the Avernus campaign no way am I going to change his character now. I'm disappointed it's not in the PHB, and I really hope this is in the DMG, because it's a great way to make hybrid characters.
I would expect some sort of species creation rules in the DMG, but the rules from UA were probably overly limited to be worth putting in the DMG, it's basically an assertion "You can make cosmetic alterations to a species".
The UA is still available to download. It was in the first UA:
CHILDREN OF DIFFERENT HUMANOID KINDS Thanks to the magical workings of the multiverse, Humanoids of different kinds sometimes have children together. For example, folk who have a human parent and an orc or an elf parent are particularly common. Many other combinations are possible. If you’d like to play the child of such a wondrous pairing, choose two Race options that are Humanoid to represent your parents. Then determine which of those Race options provides your game traits: Size, Speed, and special traits. You can then mix and match visual characteristics—color, ear shape, and the like—of the two options. For example, if your character has a halfling and a gnome parent, you might choose Halfling for your game traits and then decide that your character has the pointed ears that are characteristic of a gnome. Finally, determine the average of the two options’ Life Span traits to figure out how long your character might live. For example, a child of a halfling and a gnome has an average life span of 288 years.
I'm not sure how well I can convey thoughts on this but I'm gonna try my best.
I can understand the reasoning behind the change, both mechanically because half elves had all the benefits and no drawbacks and also to simplify things, but it feels like an invalidation. Like the entire point of my sorcerer's arc was overcoming the stigma of being a half elf and was openly racist to elves because of how his mother's people treated him. The shit dealt with in the game had helped me through IRL stuff I was going through and seeing this change feels insulting if that makes sense.
I'm not sure how well I can convey thoughts on this but I'm gonna try my best.
I can understand the reasoning behind the change, both mechanically because half elves had all the benefits and no drawbacks and also to simplify things, but it feels like an invalidation. Like the entire point of my sorcerer's arc was overcoming the stigma of being a half elf and was openly racist to elves because of how his mother's people treated him. The shit dealt with in the game had helped me through IRL stuff I was going through and seeing this change feels insulting if that makes sense.
Half-elves have none of the cool things from Elves. (Okay so I think trance is probably the only cool thing from elves.)
Half elves get advantage on charmed spells, can't be put to sleep by magic, two skill proficiencies and darkvision (which at this point 90% of the races have anyway). You are better off just picking human or elf.
But half Elves are still really cool. I'll probably end up looking at the Tales of the Valiant book for half elf stats and see how they compare to 2014.
We are playing in worlds where most of the time races are not living together. It is just silly to think that people in this setting were not racist.
Hell most worlds we have played in have had elves and dwarves not liking each other. There is nothing wrong with it.
Let's be 100% honest people. Are Orcs somehow a peaceful race that do not eat other humanoid creatures? Half Orcs are tolerated.
It's like saying Mindflayers shouldn't be hated. They are just misunderstood.
I hope WotC do not ruin this game with social constructs. It's a fantasy game. Roleplaying racism might just fix racism in real life.
And that's not to mention that the existence of half-"species" tends to be evidence of how people of different cultures can see past their differences. Like the tale of Aragorn and Arwen. And that of Beren and Lúthien before them. Were they to have ever produced offspring.
As I said elsewhere with regard to the use of the term "species":
The differences between a hobbit and a human are so small that if hobbits existed they would most definitely be considered human. And not an entirely different species. In fact it's safe to assume that anyone who would consider them a different species would be regarded with suspicion. Because that's the sort of language one expects from hateful individuals when talking about ethnic groups with a phenotype that sees them with a shorter stature than others.
Now I can understand why Wizards might want to move away from the term "race." I've little to no problem with their deciding to replace the term. But the term "species" comes with its own problems. But people who of the mind that Wizards can make no wrong decisions can't see what is so plainly obvious to others. Almost every step Wizards has taken to handle with sensitivity the issue of race and racism has been met with criticism from many individuals who count themselves among minority ethnic groups. Including how they were going to handle half-"species" as seen in the playtest material and now their removal of them altogether. Because Wizards aren't listening to ordinary everyday people who belong to minority ethnic groups. They are deferring to "experts" privileged enough to have gone to university who are out of touch with ordinary everyday people who belong to minority ethnic groups. It ain't rocket science what is happening.
We are playing in worlds where most of the time races are not living together.
I think this is a flawed assumption right from the get go because 1) not all the setting in D&D are written like this, after all Eberron is an official D&D setting where people of different species lived together pretty commonly and 2) even if it were universal to write official settings that way, the multiversal emphasis they are taking with D&D basically allows any kind of homebrew setting to be used as well.
It is just silly to think that people in this setting were not racist.
And this is also a flawed conclusion to come from that flawed assumption. This is fantasy. Racism doesn't have to be a natural default to all societies. That is very limiting and restrictive to the near infinite creativity that world builders can, and should, have when conjuring a world for this game.
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Canto alla vita alla sua bellezza ad ogni sua ferita ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
And this is also a flawed conclusion to come from that flawed assumption. This is fantasy. Racism doesn't have to be a natural default to all societies.
True.
But, also, if you randomly assign a large group of a label (oh... let's say Orange-red and Periwinkle-blue) they will immediately descend into tribalism. There's no reason different species wouldn't find excuses to be discriminatory.
And this is also a flawed conclusion to come from that flawed assumption. This is fantasy. Racism doesn't have to be a natural default to all societies.
True.
But, also, if you randomly assign a large group of a label (oh... let's say Orange-red and Periwinkle-blue) they will immediately descend into tribalism.
That is an assumption, and doesn't have to hold true for all societies, for all species, across all universes. That's just a limited imagination.
Wait, you just agreed that racism doesn't have to be a natural default to all societies and then turned around and said that it basically is?
There's no reason different species wouldn't find excuses to be discriminatory.
And since we're talking about fantasy, there's no reason they would, either.
We are playing in worlds where most of the time races are not living together.
I think this is a flawed assumption right from the get go because 1) not all the setting in D&D are written like this, after all Eberron is an official D&D setting where people of different species lived together pretty commonly and 2) even if it were universal to write official settings that way, the multiversal emphasis they are taking with D&D basically allows any kind of homebrew setting to be used as well.
It is just silly to think that people in this setting were not racist.
And this is also a flawed conclusion to come from that flawed assumption. This is fantasy. Racism doesn't have to be a natural default to all societies. That is very limiting and restrictive to the near infinite creativity that world builders can, and should, have when conjuring a world for this game.
Just to be clear most games I run are set in a sprawling cosmopolitan medieval/fantasy city so cosmopolitan it was renamed as it used to be named in honor of the deity whose disciples were once most common in the city while now the city is home to clerics and lay people of many faiths.
I kind of agree with what you are saying here. The possibilities in fantasy should be limitless. But the exact opposite of what you are suggesting with a game's setting being one without even a trace of racism is also among those possibilities. That is to say a setting in which racism is universal. Which is a setting I would not particularly want to play in!
But I also get where others are coming from.
I would remind you that we live in a world in which there is no consensus when it comes to what a racism-free world would even look like. So how exactly does someone possessed of his or her own prejudices in that regard manage to produce a setting for use at his or her table that satisfies the criteria of others? It is impossible. I wouldn't trust most people in the hobby to come even close to managing such a thing. And probably least of all those with a tendency to talk about the subject at every opportunity. Because their views are too often informed more by affiliations that matter much more to them than does any real engagement with or genuine concern for ethnic minorities. I am black. Some of the most racist people I have ever encountered have ranked among those who consider themselves to be not racist or even anti-racist. This is why I would say it is nigh inconceivable that a world in which different cultures exist not even oneindividual might harbor prejudices. Because someone's idea of their not being at all prejudiced is someone else's idea of that someoone's being among the worst of culprits. Fantasy is limitless. But let's not get fanciful.
I just feel there wasn't a need to get rid of the half-races period. It has been a thing for this game for over 40 years. Like I said earlier in this thread. Are we going to retcon Tanis Half-Elven as a human now? Or is he going to be a full eleven? It's just stupid to me.
EDIT: After looking through the thread and seeing the posts by Davyd, I now know they aren't getting rid of mixed races in DnD. Just the mechanical part of it. So I withdraw my sentiment.
I just feel there wasn't a need to get rid of the half-races period. It has been a thing for this game for over 40 years. Like I said earlier in this thread. Are we going to retcon Tanis Half-Elven as a human now? Or is he going to be a full eleven? It's just stupid to me.
Tanis just won't exist in 5e. Or he'll just be "Tanis" with no qualifiers. And mechanically, yes, he will be either Human or Elven.
I just feel there wasn't a need to get rid of the half-races period. It has been a thing for this game for over 40 years. Like I said earlier in this thread. Are we going to retcon Tanis Half-Elven as a human now? Or is he going to be a full eleven? It's just stupid to me.
Tanis just won't exist in 5e. Or he'll just be "Tanis" with no qualifiers. And mechanically, yes, he will be either Human or Elven.
I think you're both making the mistake of conflating mechanics with flavour. Flavour is free, Tanis would still be a half-elf and that would still impact his story, but there'd just be no mechanical benefit to being a half-elf in the same way I once played a half-dwarf and had to use the dwarf stats. And that's the problem I always had with half elves and half orcs; why just those two? What 2024 has really missed a trick on is not introducing mechanics to increase the number of mixed heritage options rather than remove them entirely
My solution is to allow any half race no matter what combination. Even races with four or more species ancestry. The player character gets to pick one single species for their abilities. The reasoning behind it is that for some unknown reason evolution made a single part of their ancestry dominate. So a Tiefling/Halfling/Drow/Dwarven/Human could choose one of their ancestry species and use those features. If they wanted more spells Tiefling could be their dominate species. As long as they only get abilities from one species, the game doesn't break, IMHO. Another thing to consider would be a hybrid species like Tiefling/Drow/Centaur, they have the species abilities of a Tiefling but look exactly like a Centaur. Or a Drow with tiny horns or vestigial tail. :-D
I just feel there wasn't a need to get rid of the half-races period. It has been a thing for this game for over 40 years.
“We’ve always done it like this” is a terrible reason to do something.
Not quite. It’s a terrible reason for doing something that doesn’t make sense anymore or is no longer good or possibly even bad now. It’s a perfectly fine reason to keep doing something that still works when nothing better has presented itself.
I just feel there wasn't a need to get rid of the half-races period. It has been a thing for this game for over 40 years. Like I said earlier in this thread. Are we going to retcon Tanis Half-Elven as a human now? Or is he going to be a full eleven? It's just stupid to me.
Tanis just won't exist in 5e. Or he'll just be "Tanis" with no qualifiers. And mechanically, yes, he will be either Human or Elven.
I think you're both making the mistake of conflating mechanics with flavour. Flavour is free, Tanis would still be a half-elf and that would still impact his story, but there'd just be no mechanical benefit to being a half-elf in the same way I once played a half-dwarf and had to use the dwarf stats. And that's the problem I always had with half elves and half orcs; why just those two? What 2024 has really missed a trick on is not introducing mechanics to increase the number of mixed heritage options rather than remove them entirely
Right, but he won't be Tanis Half-Elven, he'll just be Tanis. If they're not including the half-_____ options because that upsets some people, then they're not going to have a character with that term in his name. He'll be Tanis Elven who has a human father for flavour.
(Personally, not having half species feels far, FAR more racist and insulting. Because, while you can have elven and human parents, you still have to pick one. You can't be both. You are either an elf or a human. Which feels like saying some can't be both Indian and Black, almost coming across as a dog whistle. But that's a whole other conversation...)
Right, but he won't be Tanis Half-Elven, he'll just be Tanis. If they're not including the half-_____ options because that upsets some people, then they're not going to have a character with that term in his name. He'll be Tanis Elven who has a human father for flavour.
He can call himself whatever he wants. Names are names, mechanics are mechanics; having "race mechanics" in the first place was a bad idea.
(Personally, not having half species feels far, FAR more racist and insulting. Because, while you can have elven and human parents, you still have to pick one. You can't be both. You are either an elf or a human. Which feels like saying some can't be both Indian and Black, almost coming across as a dog whistle. But that's a whole other conversation...)
I think the reason they removed half-elf and half-orc were because they invoked the real-world racism too much. "All people of mixed race are outcasts? check. You only count as 'half' if one half is whitehuman? check." The fact that racespecies mechanics still exist at all isn't an excuse to keep the worst stereotypes.
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I would expect some sort of species creation rules in the DMG, but the rules from UA were probably overly limited to be worth putting in the DMG, it's basically an assertion "You can make cosmetic alterations to a species".
I'm confused. So is there ANY guidelines to using a mixed heritage or is it all homebrew now? 🤔
Use the 2014 rules for Half-Elf, Half-Orc, or Custom Lineages from Tasha’s Cauldron of Everything
The UA is still available to download. It was in the first UA:
I'm not sure how well I can convey thoughts on this but I'm gonna try my best.
I can understand the reasoning behind the change, both mechanically because half elves had all the benefits and no drawbacks and also to simplify things, but it feels like an invalidation. Like the entire point of my sorcerer's arc was overcoming the stigma of being a half elf and was openly racist to elves because of how his mother's people treated him. The shit dealt with in the game had helped me through IRL stuff I was going through and seeing this change feels insulting if that makes sense.
Half-elves have none of the cool things from Elves. (Okay so I think trance is probably the only cool thing from elves.)
Half elves get advantage on charmed spells, can't be put to sleep by magic, two skill proficiencies and darkvision (which at this point 90% of the races have anyway). You are better off just picking human or elf.
But half Elves are still really cool. I'll probably end up looking at the Tales of the Valiant book for half elf stats and see how they compare to 2014.
We are playing in worlds where most of the time races are not living together. It is just silly to think that people in this setting were not racist.
Hell most worlds we have played in have had elves and dwarves not liking each other. There is nothing wrong with it.
Let's be 100% honest people. Are Orcs somehow a peaceful race that do not eat other humanoid creatures? Half Orcs are tolerated.
It's like saying Mindflayers shouldn't be hated. They are just misunderstood.
I hope WotC do not ruin this game with social constructs. It's a fantasy game. Roleplaying racism might just fix racism in real life.
And that's not to mention that the existence of half-"species" tends to be evidence of how people of different cultures can see past their differences. Like the tale of Aragorn and Arwen. And that of Beren and Lúthien before them. Were they to have ever produced offspring.
As I said elsewhere with regard to the use of the term "species":
The differences between a hobbit and a human are so small that if hobbits existed they would most definitely be considered human. And not an entirely different species. In fact it's safe to assume that anyone who would consider them a different species would be regarded with suspicion. Because that's the sort of language one expects from hateful individuals when talking about ethnic groups with a phenotype that sees them with a shorter stature than others.
Now I can understand why Wizards might want to move away from the term "race." I've little to no problem with their deciding to replace the term. But the term "species" comes with its own problems. But people who of the mind that Wizards can make no wrong decisions can't see what is so plainly obvious to others. Almost every step Wizards has taken to handle with sensitivity the issue of race and racism has been met with criticism from many individuals who count themselves among minority ethnic groups. Including how they were going to handle half-"species" as seen in the playtest material and now their removal of them altogether. Because Wizards aren't listening to ordinary everyday people who belong to minority ethnic groups. They are deferring to "experts" privileged enough to have gone to university who are out of touch with ordinary everyday people who belong to minority ethnic groups. It ain't rocket science what is happening.
I think this is a flawed assumption right from the get go because 1) not all the setting in D&D are written like this, after all Eberron is an official D&D setting where people of different species lived together pretty commonly and 2) even if it were universal to write official settings that way, the multiversal emphasis they are taking with D&D basically allows any kind of homebrew setting to be used as well.
And this is also a flawed conclusion to come from that flawed assumption. This is fantasy. Racism doesn't have to be a natural default to all societies. That is very limiting and restrictive to the near infinite creativity that world builders can, and should, have when conjuring a world for this game.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
True.
But, also, if you randomly assign a large group of a label (oh... let's say Orange-red and Periwinkle-blue) they will immediately descend into tribalism. There's no reason different species wouldn't find excuses to be discriminatory.
That is an assumption, and doesn't have to hold true for all societies, for all species, across all universes. That's just a limited imagination.
Wait, you just agreed that racism doesn't have to be a natural default to all societies and then turned around and said that it basically is?
And since we're talking about fantasy, there's no reason they would, either.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
Just to be clear most games I run are set in a sprawling cosmopolitan medieval/fantasy city so cosmopolitan it was renamed as it used to be named in honor of the deity whose disciples were once most common in the city while now the city is home to clerics and lay people of many faiths.
I kind of agree with what you are saying here. The possibilities in fantasy should be limitless. But the exact opposite of what you are suggesting with a game's setting being one without even a trace of racism is also among those possibilities. That is to say a setting in which racism is universal. Which is a setting I would not particularly want to play in!
But I also get where others are coming from.
I would remind you that we live in a world in which there is no consensus when it comes to what a racism-free world would even look like. So how exactly does someone possessed of his or her own prejudices in that regard manage to produce a setting for use at his or her table that satisfies the criteria of others? It is impossible. I wouldn't trust most people in the hobby to come even close to managing such a thing. And probably least of all those with a tendency to talk about the subject at every opportunity. Because their views are too often informed more by affiliations that matter much more to them than does any real engagement with or genuine concern for ethnic minorities. I am black. Some of the most racist people I have ever encountered have ranked among those who consider themselves to be not racist or even anti-racist. This is why I would say it is nigh inconceivable that a world in which different cultures exist not even one individual might harbor prejudices. Because someone's idea of their not being at all prejudiced is someone else's idea of that someoone's being among the worst of culprits. Fantasy is limitless. But let's not get fanciful.
I just feel there wasn't a need to get rid of the half-races period. It has been a thing for this game for over 40 years. Like I said earlier in this thread. Are we going to retcon Tanis Half-Elven as a human now? Or is he going to be a full eleven? It's just stupid to me.
EDIT: After looking through the thread and seeing the posts by Davyd, I now know they aren't getting rid of mixed races in DnD. Just the mechanical part of it. So I withdraw my sentiment.
Tanis just won't exist in 5e. Or he'll just be "Tanis" with no qualifiers. And mechanically, yes, he will be either Human or Elven.
I think you're both making the mistake of conflating mechanics with flavour. Flavour is free, Tanis would still be a half-elf and that would still impact his story, but there'd just be no mechanical benefit to being a half-elf in the same way I once played a half-dwarf and had to use the dwarf stats. And that's the problem I always had with half elves and half orcs; why just those two? What 2024 has really missed a trick on is not introducing mechanics to increase the number of mixed heritage options rather than remove them entirely
My solution is to allow any half race no matter what combination. Even races with four or more species ancestry. The player character gets to pick one single species for their abilities. The reasoning behind it is that for some unknown reason evolution made a single part of their ancestry dominate. So a Tiefling/Halfling/Drow/Dwarven/Human could choose one of their ancestry species and use those features. If they wanted more spells Tiefling could be their dominate species. As long as they only get abilities from one species, the game doesn't break, IMHO. Another thing to consider would be a hybrid species like Tiefling/Drow/Centaur, they have the species abilities of a Tiefling but look exactly like a Centaur. Or a Drow with tiny horns or vestigial tail. :-D
“We’ve always done it like this” is a terrible reason to do something.
Not quite. It’s a terrible reason for doing something that doesn’t make sense anymore or is no longer good or possibly even bad now. It’s a perfectly fine reason to keep doing something that still works when nothing better has presented itself.
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Right, but he won't be Tanis Half-Elven, he'll just be Tanis.
If they're not including the half-_____ options because that upsets some people, then they're not going to have a character with that term in his name. He'll be Tanis Elven who has a human father for flavour.
(Personally, not having half species feels far, FAR more racist and insulting. Because, while you can have elven and human parents, you still have to pick one. You can't be both. You are either an elf or a human. Which feels like saying some can't be both Indian and Black, almost coming across as a dog whistle. But that's a whole other conversation...)
He can call himself whatever he wants. Names are names, mechanics are mechanics; having "race mechanics" in the first place was a bad idea.
I think the reason they removed half-elf and half-orc were because they invoked the real-world racism too much. "All people of mixed race are outcasts? check. You only count as 'half' if one half is
whitehuman? check." The fact thatracespecies mechanics still exist at all isn't an excuse to keep the worst stereotypes.