Neither the 2024 stunned nor incapacitated conditions prevent movement. This seems super odd. It has not been day 1 stealth fixed in the digital version of the 2024 PHB........so....it's intended?
Even more weird with the new stunning strike where hitting with it gives the stunned condition and when a creature saves vs it it causes slow..............
Anyone have a decent argument of how or why this could be intended?
Anyone have a decent argument of how or why this could be intended?
I'll give it a try. From a definitional standpoint, an incapacitated person is just one who is unable to function in their normal way. It doesn't meant to be unable to move. Similarly, stunned people can move too, though not very well (likely what the failed dex saves are intended to emulate).
From a game mechanic standpoint, when incapacitated/stunned is essentially identical to unconscious, it sucks. It just takes you out of the game and from what I can see of the rules so far, the intention of the 2024 rules is to reduce that as much as possible, even when having a condition that reduces your power or ability. When you have either condition, you can still try to remove yourself from immediate danger at the very least.
Also, Incapacitated also did not prevent movement in the 2014 rules. You did lose movement when having the 2014 Stunned condition, however.
I really think these conditions should be largely "common sense" inspired. To me incapacitated infers no capacity(for physical actions.) I guess i could see stunned not discounting movement, but A. Why change it from 2014? and B.Stunning Strike save vs fail is now very unintuitive.
I appreciate the perspective, I'll be curious to see if this end up being intended.
So, it is no fun when a monster knocks a player of the initiative for a round?????
It seems that way based on the design of the current game.
Look, JF, I have no interest in being drawn into your latest internecine squabble about the philosophy of play and how the old guard 'did it better'. The question was to ask how or why this could be intended. Players, in my experience, enjoy playing and do not enjoy being benched. Fights tend to be between three and four rounds. It makes sense to me that being taken out of the fight for one or two rounds may not be a desirable element for relatively common conditions by the game designers, and that removing players from a fight should be rare to build the tension, not the frustration. I am sorry this idea offends you.
Anyone have a decent argument of how or why this could be intended?
I'll give it a try. From a definitional standpoint, an incapacitated person is just one who is unable to function in their normal way. It doesn't meant to be unable to move. Similarly, stunned people can move too, though not very well (likely what the failed dex saves are intended to emulate).
From a game mechanic standpoint, when incapacitated/stunned is essentially identical to unconscious, it sucks. It just takes you out of the game and from what I can see of the rules so far, the intention of the 2024 rules is to reduce that as much as possible, even when having a condition that reduces your power or ability. When you have either condition, you can still try to remove yourself from immediate danger at the very least.
Also, Incapacitated also did not prevent movement in the 2014 rules. You did lose movement when having the 2014 Stunned condition, however.
I've been stunned in real life a couple of times when sparring when someone who got in a lucky head shot. Never been in a situation where I couldn't move but definitely been staggering around with reduced dex so the new condition makes a lot more sense to me then "stunned is basically unconscious"
It gives a bit more difference between the Stunned and Paralysed conditions. Use to be the only difference is Paralysed applied to an auto critical to all hits from within 5 foot, the movement gives a bit more of a difference and keeps the Paralysed condition as worse than the Stunned condition.
Also a stunned creature can now be forced to move since it still has a move speed.
I think it would be better if it also halved your Speed, personally.
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100% agree that stunned and paralyzed were basically the same thing and that stunned removing all movement was a bit strange. But I also agree it's bizarre it doesn't reduce movement either, especially considering the consequences of a failed Stunning Strike.
So nerfing Stunned is just another middle finger to 2014 Monk players for not wanting to play the "right" way, as per 2024 5e's designers and target audience, while other classes and spells in 2024 5e have far more broken control power than Stunning Strike ever did.
2014 Monks were firing off 3-4 Power Word Stun (an 8th level spell) per round for the price of half of a 1st level spell slot each. And instead of having that insanely powerful tool taken away, they got:
a consolation prize when it fails
the ability to regain all of their ki points plus heal a bit once per day
a damage buff across the board
dash or disengage as a bonus action is now free
dash + disengage or dodge + disengage for 1 ki point
the ability to grapple as a bonus action and with Flurry of Blows
the ability to grapple using DEX
Not only are they getting way more ki points to spend on Stunning Strike, they're also the best grappler in the game bar none. They have the highest number of grapples, can't be trivially one-upped by anyone with Expertise or Rage any more, and they don't even have to bother with the Shove either because the Grappled condition now gives disadvantage on attack rolls against anyone but the grappler. And of course they can grapple two creatures and still attack at full power, unlike everyone else. I dunno about you, but that sounds like an awful lot of control for something that costs 0 resources.
Literally the only "nerf" they received is having to pace themselves with their spell-equivalent abilities just like everyone else (the Fighter's Action Surge and the Paladin's Divine Smite also got "nerfed" the exact same way.)
Neither the 2024 stunned nor incapacitated conditions prevent movement. This seems super odd. It has not been day 1 stealth fixed in the digital version of the 2024 PHB........so....it's intended?
Even more weird with the new stunning strike where hitting with it gives the stunned condition and when a creature saves vs it it causes slow..............
Anyone have a decent argument of how or why this could be intended?
-Prim
I'm not sure why it would not be intended? This is the revised editon, so it was revised.
Not only is everyone here not stupid enough to think Power Word Stun (which automatically stuns a target) is on par with Stunning Strike,
It's not on par. Stunning strike can stun anything, while PWS is HP-capped.
If I'm not being facetious, the comparison between the two is complex. PWS is guaranteed to work and lasts longer, but has the HP cap and is an 8th-level spell. Stunning strike is more often useable and is a rider on a basic attack, but it lasts less time, has no range, and there's a save. There's no clean evaluation function here. (PWS is probably worse -- all the power words are kind of lackluster; they're undertuned because of the "no saving throw" thing. (There's an argument to be made that there is no way to balance them -- if they're good enough to use, they're too good.))
But I'm sorry, we're too stupid to realize that numerous nerfs to the class mean morning because we're too dumb to use the only Monk strategy that matters, i.e. spam grapples and do zero damage until one finally succeeds, then drag enemies through Spike Growth, because it's fun doing nothing but brainless cheese strats.
Bwuh? I'm sure there's some YouTube video out there saying that that is The Way That Monk Must Be Played For Maximum Damage, but nobody cares, any more that they cared that Youtube people were saying you Must burn all your ki on stunning strike. (Or whatever they were saying.)
Monks are going to punch people in the face a lot, and have fun doing it. I'm going to be very happy to be able to use the fun push-pull stuff on Elements without running out of juice instantly.
Might I suggest that we take a step back and approach the PWS v SS from a more impartial point of view? It seems a lot like people are blowing up/overly minimising the positives and negatives of each according to their agenda to push their point rather than actually comparing the two. You're never going to reach a consensus doing that.
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If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Neither the 2024 stunned nor incapacitated conditions prevent movement. This seems super odd. It has not been day 1 stealth fixed in the digital version of the 2024 PHB........so....it's intended?
Even more weird with the new stunning strike where hitting with it gives the stunned condition and when a creature saves vs it it causes slow..............
Anyone have a decent argument of how or why this could be intended?
-Prim
I believe it is intended. There are other conditions that prevent movement that would be used for that purpose.
I'd say it's to limit the amount of "you're out" moves the game can threaten either the players or the mini-bosses (no LAs) with. Remember 3rd Edition? Whew... one bad roll and you may as well go bake some bread because it's gonna be a while before you roll another die.
However it does seem odd that if you just need to stop a creature from moving and Power Word Stun is the only trick you have, it has to pass the Save... it's just unintuitive.
So I'd say the intention was to make the game "less lethal". In that sense, it's a fine fix even if it's a bit unintuitive. Maybe by 7E, "Concentrate" will be an action...
It was in 4e -- the equivalent of concentration was "sustain X", where X was the type of action required (usually minor, which was the equivalent of a bonus action).
If you used a melee attack to successfully Stun a target he can still move. OK No ability to disengage. Target will have to move either around you (No real effect) or Away (Trigger opportunity attack)
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Neither the 2024 stunned nor incapacitated conditions prevent movement. This seems super odd. It has not been day 1 stealth fixed in the digital version of the 2024 PHB........so....it's intended?
Even more weird with the new stunning strike where hitting with it gives the stunned condition and when a creature saves vs it it causes slow..............
Anyone have a decent argument of how or why this could be intended?
-Prim
I'll give it a try. From a definitional standpoint, an incapacitated person is just one who is unable to function in their normal way. It doesn't meant to be unable to move. Similarly, stunned people can move too, though not very well (likely what the failed dex saves are intended to emulate).
From a game mechanic standpoint, when incapacitated/stunned is essentially identical to unconscious, it sucks. It just takes you out of the game and from what I can see of the rules so far, the intention of the 2024 rules is to reduce that as much as possible, even when having a condition that reduces your power or ability. When you have either condition, you can still try to remove yourself from immediate danger at the very least.
Also, Incapacitated also did not prevent movement in the 2014 rules. You did lose movement when having the 2014 Stunned condition, however.
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So, it is no fun when a monster knocks a player of the initiative for a round?????
That's about as good of a take i could make.
I really think these conditions should be largely "common sense" inspired. To me incapacitated infers no capacity(for physical actions.) I guess i could see stunned not discounting movement, but A. Why change it from 2014? and B.Stunning Strike save vs fail is now very unintuitive.
I appreciate the perspective, I'll be curious to see if this end up being intended.
-Prim
Note that a character is who is stunned cannot dash, so it's not a case of "being stunned makes you faster than being slowed".
It seems that way based on the design of the current game.
Look, JF, I have no interest in being drawn into your latest internecine squabble about the philosophy of play and how the old guard 'did it better'. The question was to ask how or why this could be intended. Players, in my experience, enjoy playing and do not enjoy being benched. Fights tend to be between three and four rounds. It makes sense to me that being taken out of the fight for one or two rounds may not be a desirable element for relatively common conditions by the game designers, and that removing players from a fight should be rare to build the tension, not the frustration. I am sorry this idea offends you.
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I've been stunned in real life a couple of times when sparring when someone who got in a lucky head shot. Never been in a situation where I couldn't move but definitely been staggering around with reduced dex so the new condition makes a lot more sense to me then "stunned is basically unconscious"
It gives a bit more difference between the Stunned and Paralysed conditions. Use to be the only difference is Paralysed applied to an auto critical to all hits from within 5 foot, the movement gives a bit more of a difference and keeps the Paralysed condition as worse than the Stunned condition.
Also a stunned creature can now be forced to move since it still has a move speed.
I think it would be better if it also halved your Speed, personally.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
100% agree that stunned and paralyzed were basically the same thing and that stunned removing all movement was a bit strange. But I also agree it's bizarre it doesn't reduce movement either, especially considering the consequences of a failed Stunning Strike.
2014 Monks were firing off 3-4 Power Word Stun (an 8th level spell) per round for the price of half of a 1st level spell slot each. And instead of having that insanely powerful tool taken away, they got:
Not only are they getting way more ki points to spend on Stunning Strike, they're also the best grappler in the game bar none. They have the highest number of grapples, can't be trivially one-upped by anyone with Expertise or Rage any more, and they don't even have to bother with the Shove either because the Grappled condition now gives disadvantage on attack rolls against anyone but the grappler. And of course they can grapple two creatures and still attack at full power, unlike everyone else. I dunno about you, but that sounds like an awful lot of control for something that costs 0 resources.
Literally the only "nerf" they received is having to pace themselves with their spell-equivalent abilities just like everyone else (the Fighter's Action Surge and the Paladin's Divine Smite also got "nerfed" the exact same way.)
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Thanks for the mostly helpful takes! This will be useful when discussing with my group.
-Prim
I'm not sure why it would not be intended? This is the revised editon, so it was revised.
What do you recon the odds of winning three coin flips are?
Hold Person:
Name these "numerous" nerfs
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It's not on par. Stunning strike can stun anything, while PWS is HP-capped.
If I'm not being facetious, the comparison between the two is complex. PWS is guaranteed to work and lasts longer, but has the HP cap and is an 8th-level spell. Stunning strike is more often useable and is a rider on a basic attack, but it lasts less time, has no range, and there's a save. There's no clean evaluation function here. (PWS is probably worse -- all the power words are kind of lackluster; they're undertuned because of the "no saving throw" thing. (There's an argument to be made that there is no way to balance them -- if they're good enough to use, they're too good.))
Bwuh? I'm sure there's some YouTube video out there saying that that is The Way That Monk Must Be Played For Maximum Damage, but nobody cares, any more that they cared that Youtube people were saying you Must burn all your ki on stunning strike. (Or whatever they were saying.)
Monks are going to punch people in the face a lot, and have fun doing it. I'm going to be very happy to be able to use the fun push-pull stuff on Elements without running out of juice instantly.
Might I suggest that we take a step back and approach the PWS v SS from a more impartial point of view? It seems a lot like people are blowing up/overly minimising the positives and negatives of each according to their agenda to push their point rather than actually comparing the two. You're never going to reach a consensus doing that.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
I believe it is intended. There are other conditions that prevent movement that would be used for that purpose.
I'd say it's to limit the amount of "you're out" moves the game can threaten either the players or the mini-bosses (no LAs) with. Remember 3rd Edition? Whew... one bad roll and you may as well go bake some bread because it's gonna be a while before you roll another die.
However it does seem odd that if you just need to stop a creature from moving and Power Word Stun is the only trick you have, it has to pass the Save... it's just unintuitive.
So I'd say the intention was to make the game "less lethal". In that sense, it's a fine fix even if it's a bit unintuitive. Maybe by 7E, "Concentrate" will be an action...
It was in 4e -- the equivalent of concentration was "sustain X", where X was the type of action required (usually minor, which was the equivalent of a bonus action).
If you used a melee attack to successfully Stun a target he can still move. OK No ability to disengage. Target will have to move either around you (No real effect) or Away (Trigger opportunity attack)