"Today, approximately 30 talented developers (90% of the team) were laid off from the Sigil (virtual tabletop) team at Wizards of the Coast, including yours truly, I'm disappointed that we didn't get to continue working toward the full experience that we imagined, but happy for the opportunity to work on an intriguing challenge with so many smart and dedicated folks I wish my former colleagues success in their future endeavors. l'l also be pulling for the crew left behind whol'l do their best to keep improving and iterating the experience we shipped last month. If you're interested in talking with me about opportunities in game design narrative/writing., or team leadership, reach out. Be kind to yourself. And if you can, be kind to someone else today too,"
Interesting time to down size the team considering the discussions on this forum about how it works right now, it's still in beta isn't it?
Interesting time to down size the team considering the discussions on this forum about how it works right now, it's still in beta isn't it?
Anyone have any insight on this move?
Unfortunately, that's how a lot of software development works these days - big chunks of the development team laid off after a big release. It sucks, but Sigil isn't an outlier.
There are solutions to the issue but they tend to run political and therefore are beyond the scope of this forum.
Honestly, it feels like Wizards has given up on Project Sigil -- they stealth released it in a way that, from what I've heard, probably wasn't ready for release, and then laid off the team.
It's concerning. It's not like Sigil, as we see it, is close to release. There's likely a more advanced version that hasn't been released yet, obviously, but it doesn't feel like the "we're pretty much done, and now there's not enough work to go around" stage.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
This is sad cause this thing is nowhere near ready. From messing around with it, it's still an alpha build imo. Beta at the very least. So sad cause it has so much potential.
It's unclear to me what the rules are in regards to talking about Sigil at this point, but I do think I'm allowed to say that I think the development is going quite well. I mean software development is difficult and time-consuming and a product in development always looks "bad" from the perspective of a user during the development. You're always playing something that is a work in progress so you have to have a bit of an imagination when assessing the current progress at any given point.
As already pointed out, this is pretty standard behavior for game development houses, it's nothing personal, it's just part of the process to lay off the bulk of the development team once a project reaches a point where all the core features have been completed. It doesn't tell us anything nor should anyone read into this about how it's going or the state of the project. This layoff was likely planned before any of the people were even hired, it's that normalized in the business. I only know that because half the people in my D&D group are game developers and game development executives so I hear about all this stuff pretty much always during the chit-chat before and after the game.
That said, both Hasbro and WotC are doing poorly given their Q4 results, especially considering how big of a deal they made about D&D's success, you would think that this would have had an impact, but D&D quite literally made no difference on these results. They have clearly grossly overstated the success of the 2024 launch. This may be impacting decisions and predictions about how well Sigil will do as a product when released. In either case we won't really know anything until Q1 results are in. If Magic doesn't pick up and D&D doesn't pull its weight, we may have a repeat of 4e where the digital tools get scrapped.
could this be end of project sigil and the digitalisation of D&D (for the short term at least)?
If true, it might mark the point of a major reversal in strategy. While I have personally been dreading the age of D&D digitalization, I would not have predicted it would fail. Honestly thought I was in the minority opinion about the prospect of digital D&D but perhaps not.
its very hard to tell from these forums because the fandom for all things Wizard is so overwhelming here but reality might be quite different behind the scenes.
i mentioned this before but where I live D&D is simply not played at all, at least not 5e. Shadowdark is exploding right now, its all anyone talks about.
Eh, I am not that surprised. I know a lot of people that don't use digital tools at all and while there was an up tick of online play during COVID, most of the people I know went back to in person games fairly quickly. Those that do play online are already invested in Roll20 and the like. It doesn't help that they have D&DBeyond Maps which is competition that they created for themselves. If one was going to go, I would guess that the one that is further along and cheaper to make would win out.
could this be end of project sigil and the digitalisation of D&D (for the short term at least)?
If true, it might mark the point of a major reversal in strategy. While I have personally been dreading the age of D&D digitalization, I would not have predicted it would fail. Honestly thought I was in the minority opinion about the prospect of digital D&D but perhaps not.
its very hard to tell from these forums because the fandom for all things Wizard is so overwhelming here but reality might be quite different behind the scenes.
i mentioned this before but where I live D&D is simply not played at all, at least not 5e. Shadowdark is exploding right now, its all anyone talks about.
A DND website favors DND?
What a twist!
But seriously, this is standard "software as a rented service" industry practice. Bulk hire, bulk fire, keep those willing to submit to, settle for less from, are explicitly unquestioning of the boss(es).
It's a signal of financial flummery and/or bad signs for Hasbro that they're doing this, tho. When "software as a rental service"s do this, either investors demanded even more RoA, or someone's made an offer to buy/sell something big that belongs to Hasbro.
Microsoft owns a frickton of companies who did this exact thing, for the record. & Hasbro has done it twice at this point. First the mass firings of Beyond & WotC staff, then this Sigil purge.
Money is likely moving.
I PRAY it's not Elon Musk making an offer to buy DND, or related to Monopoly GO overtaking WotC as the moneymaker for Hasbro.
Eh, I am not that surprised. I know a lot of people that don't use digital tools at all and while there was an up tick of online play during COVID, most of the people I know went back to in person games fairly quickly. Those that do play online are already invested in Roll20 and the like. It doesn't help that they have D&DBeyond Maps which is competition that they created for themselves. If one was going to go, I would guess that the one that is further along and cheaper to make would win out.
There's a lot of WotC's and Hasbro's decisions regarding the last few years that seem to show a shocking misunderstanding of how covid effected the hobby. They seem to be looking at an unprecedented event and thinking it's status quo, both in the way they think online play will replace in person but also in the sales figures they expect to get. I know one of the most faulty underpinnings of capitalism is that growth will be perpetual but they're looking at a period when everyone took up new hobbies and basing all their plans on that (and that's speaking as someone who did take it up during covid but stuck around)
they may realized the money input needed to keep sigil running in the long term is too high, all the 3d assets and implementation, for the revenue it might incure. Then, they see Maps, and see how well that works, with likely a small fraction of the cost to develop that, and it fulfills the needs of the players that need some virtual maps better, then a full 3d vtt.
Also, Maps can run already on mobiles devices, which is huge for market penetration, while sigil would need a computer for everyone.
I think, if they shift the focus away from sigil, and put the people to work on Maps, it would be a much better deal. Imagine if DNDBeyonds new way of adding 3rd party content, also will be included in Maps? Ready to play VTT with the 3rd party adventures ready to play. Much less work, compared the 3d VTT.
Bad news really. If what i think happens, it won't be the first 3D VTT to be canned by WoTC, back around 2010 during 4E there was one in the working for those who may remember.
I'm hoping that I'm wrong and it's just that they've finished the heavy lifting. Or at worse, it's just a case of overreach from the pandemic high and doesn't indicate anything negative towards the rest of the hobby.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Eh, I am not that surprised. I know a lot of people that don't use digital tools at all and while there was an up tick of online play during COVID, most of the people I know went back to in person games fairly quickly. Those that do play online are already invested in Roll20 and the like. It doesn't help that they have D&DBeyond Maps which is competition that they created for themselves. If one was going to go, I would guess that the one that is further along and cheaper to make would win out.
There's a lot of WotC's and Hasbro's decisions regarding the last few years that seem to show a shocking misunderstanding of how covid effected the hobby. They seem to be looking at an unprecedented event and thinking it's status quo, both in the way they think online play will replace in person but also in the sales figures they expect to get. I know one of the most faulty underpinnings of capitalism is that growth will be perpetual but they're looking at a period when everyone took up new hobbies and basing all their plans on that (and that's speaking as someone who did take it up during covid but stuck around)
They only sold so much digital because people were under quarantine, afraid, desperate, & were experiencing the pain of others while also being stuck with them.
So impulse purchases skyrocketed, & the buyout was a result of seeing number go up, but not actually considering why.
Number go down, & they decided to make it go up again via excessive monetization at bare minimum cost, stripping WotC of ANY independence & reducing to a Parker Brothers-esque shell brand completely & utterly under central command.
OGLgate was the afterbirth of pandemic number go down. The AI Bubble is currently seen as a way to recapture that era of number go up. Sigil costing employees is a further way of chasing number go up all the way
Companies & investors in general have a problem with number going down compared to the pandemic era. Rather than course-correct, they & their investors want number go up, stay up & go forever up all the way, lest they admit it was a fluke, & not goals realized.
Sigil possibly staying forever in beta/being dialed back in scope &/or AI integration is one thing, but firing those employees instead of redirecting them to Beyond to get it fully working & integrated with Sigil(& Maps, for that matter) is pure "number most go up forever all the way & stay up" terminal business management degree mentality.
Lord knows I'm sick of it.
But I don't have fun playing any other of the MANY games I've tried, so either I quit the whole scene & play card games with my old Hoyle Deck, or have fun while demanding better.
& Sigil hasn't, & likely WON'T be "better" than other VTTs due to these firings.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
DM, player & homebrewer(Current homebrew project is an unofficial conversion of SBURB/SGRUB from Homestuck into DND 5e)
Once made Maxwell's Silver Hammer come down upon Strahd's head to make sure he was dead.
Always study & sharpen philosophical razors. They save a lot of trouble.
Interesting time to down size the team considering the discussions on this forum about how it works right now, it's still in beta isn't it?
Anyone have any insight on this move?
Unfortunately, that's how a lot of software development works these days - big chunks of the development team laid off after a big release. It sucks, but Sigil isn't an outlier.
There are solutions to the issue but they tend to run political and therefore are beyond the scope of this forum.
This^
A friend of mine works in the industry and said that this is unremarkable, even if it is a sad reality for people like him. The crew needed to maintain a project is far smaller than one needed to build it.
Watching Sigil and Maps develop, side by side, made me very skeptical. Having two products "compete" for a captured audience made no business sense. They cannibalize each other and increase costs without really leaning into more revenue. Sure, you could argue that it's two revenue streams, each targeting a different core customer - but... the market opportunity didn't feel big enough from the first mention.
In the last year, Maps went through a LOT of rapid advances and feature gains. As recent as last month for me, Sigil felt like anything but a D&D tool for me as a DM and my players.
You don't spend like a drunken sailor in port after months at sea if you are running a smart business. In this case, you pick a winner and put the focus on that. I'd sunset Sigil and redirect the staff that's still there onto Maps.
That's why it's good news to me. Cutting losses protects the rest of the business vs. Sigil being a drag.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
From Andy Collins
"Today, approximately 30 talented developers (90% of the team) were laid off from the Sigil (virtual tabletop) team at Wizards of the Coast, including yours truly,
I'm disappointed that we didn't get to continue working toward the full experience that we imagined, but happy for the opportunity to work on an intriguing challenge with so many smart and dedicated folks
I wish my former colleagues success in their future endeavors. l'l also be pulling for the crew left behind whol'l do their best to keep improving and iterating the experience we shipped last month.
If you're interested in talking with me about opportunities in game design narrative/writing., or team leadership, reach out.
Be kind to yourself. And if you can, be kind to someone else today too,"
Interesting time to down size the team considering the discussions on this forum about how it works right now, it's still in beta isn't it?
Anyone have any insight on this move?
Unfortunately, that's how a lot of software development works these days - big chunks of the development team laid off after a big release. It sucks, but Sigil isn't an outlier.
There are solutions to the issue but they tend to run political and therefore are beyond the scope of this forum.
I haven't even looked at it, but reading through posts about it, it seems a little premature.
Honestly, it feels like Wizards has given up on Project Sigil -- they stealth released it in a way that, from what I've heard, probably wasn't ready for release, and then laid off the team.
Where is the source of this?
DM mostly, Player occasionally | Session 0 form | He/Him/They/Them
EXTENDED SIGNATURE!
Doctor/Published Scholar/Science and Healthcare Advocate/Critter/Trekkie/Gandalf with a Glock
Try DDB free: Free Rules (2024), premade PCs, adventures, one shots, encounters, SC, homebrew, more
Answers: physical books, purchases, and subbing.
Check out my life-changing
His LinkedIn profile.
There is a screenshot of it on enworld, it didn't seem appropriate to post a link to that account so I posted the text.
It's concerning. It's not like Sigil, as we see it, is close to release. There's likely a more advanced version that hasn't been released yet, obviously, but it doesn't feel like the "we're pretty much done, and now there's not enough work to go around" stage.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
This is sad cause this thing is nowhere near ready. From messing around with it, it's still an alpha build imo. Beta at the very least. So sad cause it has so much potential.
It's unclear to me what the rules are in regards to talking about Sigil at this point, but I do think I'm allowed to say that I think the development is going quite well. I mean software development is difficult and time-consuming and a product in development always looks "bad" from the perspective of a user during the development. You're always playing something that is a work in progress so you have to have a bit of an imagination when assessing the current progress at any given point.
As already pointed out, this is pretty standard behavior for game development houses, it's nothing personal, it's just part of the process to lay off the bulk of the development team once a project reaches a point where all the core features have been completed. It doesn't tell us anything nor should anyone read into this about how it's going or the state of the project. This layoff was likely planned before any of the people were even hired, it's that normalized in the business. I only know that because half the people in my D&D group are game developers and game development executives so I hear about all this stuff pretty much always during the chit-chat before and after the game.
That said, both Hasbro and WotC are doing poorly given their Q4 results, especially considering how big of a deal they made about D&D's success, you would think that this would have had an impact, but D&D quite literally made no difference on these results. They have clearly grossly overstated the success of the 2024 launch. This may be impacting decisions and predictions about how well Sigil will do as a product when released. In either case we won't really know anything until Q1 results are in. If Magic doesn't pick up and D&D doesn't pull its weight, we may have a repeat of 4e where the digital tools get scrapped.
https://youtu.be/-7MSXZIP_BI?si=qWcRJKfCpCcB9OqT
could this be end of project sigil and the digitalisation of D&D (for the short term at least)?
If true, it might mark the point of a major reversal in strategy. While I have personally been dreading the age of D&D digitalization, I would not have predicted it would fail. Honestly thought I was in the minority opinion about the prospect of digital D&D but perhaps not.
its very hard to tell from these forums because the fandom for all things Wizard is so overwhelming here but reality might be quite different behind the scenes.
i mentioned this before but where I live D&D is simply not played at all, at least not 5e. Shadowdark is exploding right now, its all anyone talks about.
Eh, I am not that surprised. I know a lot of people that don't use digital tools at all and while there was an up tick of online play during COVID, most of the people I know went back to in person games fairly quickly. Those that do play online are already invested in Roll20 and the like. It doesn't help that they have D&DBeyond Maps which is competition that they created for themselves. If one was going to go, I would guess that the one that is further along and cheaper to make would win out.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
A DND website favors DND?
What a twist!
But seriously, this is standard "software as a rented service" industry practice. Bulk hire, bulk fire, keep those willing to submit to, settle for less from, are explicitly unquestioning of the boss(es).
It's a signal of financial flummery and/or bad signs for Hasbro that they're doing this, tho. When "software as a rental service"s do this, either investors demanded even more RoA, or someone's made an offer to buy/sell something big that belongs to Hasbro.
Microsoft owns a frickton of companies who did this exact thing, for the record. & Hasbro has done it twice at this point. First the mass firings of Beyond & WotC staff, then this Sigil purge.
Money is likely moving.
I PRAY it's not Elon Musk making an offer to buy DND, or related to Monopoly GO overtaking WotC as the moneymaker for Hasbro.
DM, player & homebrewer(Current homebrew project is an unofficial conversion of SBURB/SGRUB from Homestuck into DND 5e)
Once made Maxwell's Silver Hammer come down upon Strahd's head to make sure he was dead.
Always study & sharpen philosophical razors. They save a lot of trouble.
There's a lot of WotC's and Hasbro's decisions regarding the last few years that seem to show a shocking misunderstanding of how covid effected the hobby. They seem to be looking at an unprecedented event and thinking it's status quo, both in the way they think online play will replace in person but also in the sales figures they expect to get. I know one of the most faulty underpinnings of capitalism is that growth will be perpetual but they're looking at a period when everyone took up new hobbies and basing all their plans on that (and that's speaking as someone who did take it up during covid but stuck around)
they may realized the money input needed to keep sigil running in the long term is too high, all the 3d assets and implementation, for the revenue it might incure. Then, they see Maps, and see how well that works, with likely a small fraction of the cost to develop that, and it fulfills the needs of the players that need some virtual maps better, then a full 3d vtt.
Also, Maps can run already on mobiles devices, which is huge for market penetration, while sigil would need a computer for everyone.
I think, if they shift the focus away from sigil, and put the people to work on Maps, it would be a much better deal. Imagine if DNDBeyonds new way of adding 3rd party content, also will be included in Maps? Ready to play VTT with the 3rd party adventures ready to play. Much less work, compared the 3d VTT.
Bad news really. If what i think happens, it won't be the first 3D VTT to be canned by WoTC, back around 2010 during 4E there was one in the working for those who may remember.
Well, that's a bad omen, lol
I'm hoping that I'm wrong and it's just that they've finished the heavy lifting. Or at worse, it's just a case of overreach from the pandemic high and doesn't indicate anything negative towards the rest of the hobby.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
They only sold so much digital because people were under quarantine, afraid, desperate, & were experiencing the pain of others while also being stuck with them.
So impulse purchases skyrocketed, & the buyout was a result of seeing number go up, but not actually considering why.
Number go down, & they decided to make it go up again via excessive monetization at bare minimum cost, stripping WotC of ANY independence & reducing to a Parker Brothers-esque shell brand completely & utterly under central command.
OGLgate was the afterbirth of pandemic number go down. The AI Bubble is currently seen as a way to recapture that era of number go up. Sigil costing employees is a further way of chasing number go up all the way
Companies & investors in general have a problem with number going down compared to the pandemic era. Rather than course-correct, they & their investors want number go up, stay up & go forever up all the way, lest they admit it was a fluke, & not goals realized.
Sigil possibly staying forever in beta/being dialed back in scope &/or AI integration is one thing, but firing those employees instead of redirecting them to Beyond to get it fully working & integrated with Sigil(& Maps, for that matter) is pure "number most go up forever all the way & stay up" terminal business management degree mentality.
Lord knows I'm sick of it.
But I don't have fun playing any other of the MANY games I've tried, so either I quit the whole scene & play card games with my old Hoyle Deck, or have fun while demanding better.
& Sigil hasn't, & likely WON'T be "better" than other VTTs due to these firings.
DM, player & homebrewer(Current homebrew project is an unofficial conversion of SBURB/SGRUB from Homestuck into DND 5e)
Once made Maxwell's Silver Hammer come down upon Strahd's head to make sure he was dead.
Always study & sharpen philosophical razors. They save a lot of trouble.
This^
A friend of mine works in the industry and said that this is unremarkable, even if it is a sad reality for people like him. The crew needed to maintain a project is far smaller than one needed to build it.
DM mostly, Player occasionally | Session 0 form | He/Him/They/Them
EXTENDED SIGNATURE!
Doctor/Published Scholar/Science and Healthcare Advocate/Critter/Trekkie/Gandalf with a Glock
Try DDB free: Free Rules (2024), premade PCs, adventures, one shots, encounters, SC, homebrew, more
Answers: physical books, purchases, and subbing.
Check out my life-changing
I'm not surprised and view this as good news.
Watching Sigil and Maps develop, side by side, made me very skeptical. Having two products "compete" for a captured audience made no business sense. They cannibalize each other and increase costs without really leaning into more revenue. Sure, you could argue that it's two revenue streams, each targeting a different core customer - but... the market opportunity didn't feel big enough from the first mention.
In the last year, Maps went through a LOT of rapid advances and feature gains. As recent as last month for me, Sigil felt like anything but a D&D tool for me as a DM and my players.
You don't spend like a drunken sailor in port after months at sea if you are running a smart business. In this case, you pick a winner and put the focus on that. I'd sunset Sigil and redirect the staff that's still there onto Maps.
That's why it's good news to me. Cutting losses protects the rest of the business vs. Sigil being a drag.