I would say the translator was more of a ranger than Lewis and Clark tbh
Perhaps so, but the claim was Mountain Men knew lots languages while history says otherwise
I know I've heard of lots of historical accounts of wilderness dwellers and other such "mountain men" knowing several languages from their experiences interacting with various peoples. For example, prospectors and loggers in early northern US/southern Canada would often speak English, Dutch, and French to trade with the various colonisers, as well as several dialects and languages spoken by the First Peoples of the region. A "mountain man" speaking 3+ languages wouldn't just be common, it'd be a necessity.
How well they'd speak those languages, well presumably well enough to get by. But broadly speaking when you range far and wide and interact with various peoples, you pick up how to speak to those peoples. Communication is a survival skill.
How well they'd speak those languages, well presumably well enough to get by. But broadly speaking when you range far and wide and interact with various peoples, you pick up how to speak to those peoples. Communication is a survival skill.
That's the point at which reality and 5e's streamlined mechanics start to diverge wildly, because comprehend languages offers a lot more than just "well enough to get by"
Those prospectors might have been able to haggle in French, but they probably weren't reading historical records of the Albigensian Crusade
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
But at the same time, there’s less than 20 languages in basic circulation for D&D per the current PHB- assuming we don’t count the 4 subsets of Primordial- so Doylistically the functional language pool is kept smaller for balance reasons and Watsonially there must be a broad suite of tongues and dialects covered under the language headings. Thus insofar as a real-life comparison can be expected to track to a game mechanic, it can be argued that you can still envision a Ranger as this kind of Mountain Man polyglot.
I mean, if you're that worried about rangers, just add Comprehend Languages to their spell list. In most campaigns anyone the PCs are expected to interact with will be able to do so with minimal effort because being told "you can't participate in this scene because you can't communicate" is terrible game play.
How well they'd speak those languages, well presumably well enough to get by. But broadly speaking when you range far and wide and interact with various peoples, you pick up how to speak to those peoples. Communication is a survival skill.
That's the point at which reality and 5e's streamlined mechanics start to diverge wildly, because comprehend languages offers a lot more than just "well enough to get by"
Those prospectors might have been able to haggle in French, but they probably weren't reading historical records of the Albigensian Crusade
Exactly, I wouldn't call people with the the basic ability to ask for directions or order a meal proficient in a language.
But honestly, unless the DM actually makes languages relevant, then they are just fluff on the character sheet that gets ignored 99.9% of the game because everyone speaks Common
How well they'd speak those languages, well presumably well enough to get by. But broadly speaking when you range far and wide and interact with various peoples, you pick up how to speak to those peoples. Communication is a survival skill.
That's the point at which reality and 5e's streamlined mechanics start to diverge wildly, because comprehend languages offers a lot more than just "well enough to get by"
Those prospectors might have been able to haggle in French, but they probably weren't reading historical records of the Albigensian Crusade
Yes, but these historical accounts I'm referencing aren't supernormal heroes, just average guys. I was merely refuting the notion that mountain men wouldn't have reason and capability to be polyglots in some capacity
How well they'd speak those languages, well presumably well enough to get by. But broadly speaking when you range far and wide and interact with various peoples, you pick up how to speak to those peoples. Communication is a survival skill.
That's the point at which reality and 5e's streamlined mechanics start to diverge wildly, because comprehend languages offers a lot more than just "well enough to get by"
Those prospectors might have been able to haggle in French, but they probably weren't reading historical records of the Albigensian Crusade
Yes, but these historical accounts I'm referencing aren't supernormal heroes, just average guys. I was merely refuting the notion that mountain men wouldn't have reason and capability to be polyglots in some capacity
No more or less than literally anyone else.
No one said they couldn't learn languages, just that they were no more capable or likely to know extra languages than anyone else. That would be like saying I know an engineer that knows four languages therefore all engineers must be expert linguists.
How well they'd speak those languages, well presumably well enough to get by. But broadly speaking when you range far and wide and interact with various peoples, you pick up how to speak to those peoples. Communication is a survival skill.
That's the point at which reality and 5e's streamlined mechanics start to diverge wildly, because comprehend languages offers a lot more than just "well enough to get by"
Those prospectors might have been able to haggle in French, but they probably weren't reading historical records of the Albigensian Crusade
Yes, but these historical accounts I'm referencing aren't supernormal heroes, just average guys. I was merely refuting the notion that mountain men wouldn't have reason and capability to be polyglots in some capacity
No more or less than literally anyone else.
No one said they couldn't learn languages, just that they were no more capable or likely to know extra languages than anyone else. That would be like saying I know an engineer that knows four languages therefore all engineers must be expert linguists.
That seems like a misunderstand or a misrepresentation of my point. I wasn't referencing/alluding to one example, but multiple. So many in fact it became a trope in fiction which reaches into D&D.
To co-opt your engineer example, it's like saying engineers have a historic reputation of coming up with ingenious ad hoc solutions, so a heroic engineer could improvise something fantastic. And that's how Tony Stark was able to build this in a cave, with a box of scraps!
That seems like a misunderstand or a misrepresentation of my point. I wasn't referencing/alluding to one example, but multiple. So many in fact it became a trope in fiction which reaches into D&D.
To co-opt your engineer example, it's like saying engineers have a historic reputation of coming up with ingenious ad hoc solutions, so a heroic engineer could improvise something fantastic. And that's how Tony Stark was able to build this in a cave, with a box of scraps!
Ok, since there are so many, can you provide examples of fantasy rangers that are known for their language skills?
That seems like a misunderstand or a misrepresentation of my point. I wasn't referencing/alluding to one example, but multiple. So many in fact it became a trope in fiction which reaches into D&D.
To co-opt your engineer example, it's like saying engineers have a historic reputation of coming up with ingenious ad hoc solutions, so a heroic engineer could improvise something fantastic. And that's how Tony Stark was able to build this in a cave, with a box of scraps!
Ok, since there are so many, can you provide examples of fantasy rangers that are known for their language skills?
Drizzt speaks five (Elvish, Dwarvish, Common, Undercommon, sign language). Aragorn speaks three, maybe four (Westron, Quenya, Sindarin, and maybe Dwarvish - enough to get by probably).
I can't think of any other fantasy Rangers but Daniel Boone was known for speaking many Native American languages and I'd say he was pretty Rangery and steeped in fantasy as well.
That seems like a misunderstand or a misrepresentation of my point. I wasn't referencing/alluding to one example, but multiple. So many in fact it became a trope in fiction which reaches into D&D.
To co-opt your engineer example, it's like saying engineers have a historic reputation of coming up with ingenious ad hoc solutions, so a heroic engineer could improvise something fantastic. And that's how Tony Stark was able to build this in a cave, with a box of scraps!
Ok, since there are so many, can you provide examples of fantasy rangers that are known for their language skills?
Drizzt speaks five (Elvish, Dwarvish, Common, Undercommon, sign language). Aragorn speaks three, maybe four (Westron, Quenya, Sindarin, and maybe Dwarvish - enough to get by probably).
I can't think of any other fantasy Rangers but Daniel Boone was known for speaking many Native American languages and I'd say he was pretty Rangery and steeped in fantasy as well.
So other than Daniel Boone, your examples are characters that speak a similar number of languages as all D&D characters?
That seems like a misunderstand or a misrepresentation of my point. I wasn't referencing/alluding to one example, but multiple. So many in fact it became a trope in fiction which reaches into D&D.
To co-opt your engineer example, it's like saying engineers have a historic reputation of coming up with ingenious ad hoc solutions, so a heroic engineer could improvise something fantastic. And that's how Tony Stark was able to build this in a cave, with a box of scraps!
Ok, since there are so many, can you provide examples of fantasy rangers that are known for their language skills?
Drizzt speaks five (Elvish, Dwarvish, Common, Undercommon, sign language). Aragorn speaks three, maybe four (Westron, Quenya, Sindarin, and maybe Dwarvish - enough to get by probably).
I can't think of any other fantasy Rangers but Daniel Boone was known for speaking many Native American languages and I'd say he was pretty Rangery and steeped in fantasy as well.
So other than Daniel Boone, your examples are characters that speak a similar number of languages as all D&D characters?
Four languages is more than most classes speak, I believe. Five certainly is.
That seems like a misunderstand or a misrepresentation of my point. I wasn't referencing/alluding to one example, but multiple. So many in fact it became a trope in fiction which reaches into D&D.
To co-opt your engineer example, it's like saying engineers have a historic reputation of coming up with ingenious ad hoc solutions, so a heroic engineer could improvise something fantastic. And that's how Tony Stark was able to build this in a cave, with a box of scraps!
Ok, since there are so many, can you provide examples of fantasy rangers that are known for their language skills?
Drizzt speaks five (Elvish, Dwarvish, Common, Undercommon, sign language). Aragorn speaks three, maybe four (Westron, Quenya, Sindarin, and maybe Dwarvish - enough to get by probably).
I can't think of any other fantasy Rangers but Daniel Boone was known for speaking many Native American languages and I'd say he was pretty Rangery and steeped in fantasy as well.
And everyone get Common and 1 more to start, so Rangers getting 2 more puts them in exactly the right neighborhood for the archetype per fiction, apparently.
Actually the ‘24 ranger isn’t much of a linguist really. Earlier versions were to a much greater extent and that is where my ( and possibly many others) mindsets were. The ‘24 ranger gets their languages from their race and potentially background in ‘24 and none from their class. So while I will still argue that mountain men were probably far more polyglot than we rpoften recognize the ‘24 ranger isn’t a linguist so I withdraw my complaint against the banner et and insert a snarl at WotC for again gutting the ranger in some way.
Four languages is more than most classes speak, I believe. Five certainly is.
Drizz't is an AD&D character, and thus gets languages based on Intelligence score. In any case, most realistic characters will know at least a bit of every language they regularly encounter and would need to use, which means large numbers of languages known should really be tied to the Guide, Merchant, Sage, and Sailor backgrounds (none of which actually do anything for languages known), not to a class.
I think people are getting into a bit of apples vs oranges in talking about speaking the languages. They get comprehend languages, not tongues. They can understand what’s being said, but they can’t actually reply. It’s a pretty big distinction. And they’re getting it as a ritual, iirc. So most often, I’d imagine it being used to read something written down. Maybe understand people if you have enough prep time. But it won’t allow the PDK Banneret to talk to anyone.
Four languages is more than most classes speak, I believe. Five certainly is.
Drizz't is an AD&D character, and thus gets languages based on Intelligence score. In any case, most realistic characters will know at least a bit of every language they regularly encounter and would need to use, which means large numbers of languages known should really be tied to the Guide, Merchant, Sage, and Sailor backgrounds (none of which actually do anything for languages known), not to a class.
That would make a lot of sense
It'd also be nice if there were a cantrip that allowed you to speak a language but not read it, it we really want something in the "enough to get by" range
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Without quoting the entire post from the first page of this thread..
To me, this feels like you're narrowly and inconsistently defining magic use. Sure, most the subclasses you list only allow for 2-3 spells to be cast, but my estimation, fully half of the subclasses for each of the parent classes offer generous amounts of magic use.
Saying psionics isn't magic is simply verbal gymnastics. Official D&D rules make no distinction between psionics and magic in the way MCDM's material does. For all intents and purposes, psionics are magic. So the soulknife and psi warrior most certainly do use magic.
I will concede that your post did make me go and actually look at the subclasses - and I'll also concede that the use of magic amongst subclasses from non-casting parent classes isn't as egregious as I'd thought.
That said, I'd like to see less magic use amongst non-casters. And adoption or adaptation of the way MCDM's FLEE, MORTALS distinguishes between magic and psionics.
I don’t have much skin in the game on this discussion, other than to say that I very much like the Ranger class as it is now and would not want to give up any of the existing design for the sake of some language feature which, historical though it may or may not be, would come at a cost of something else.
In my opinion, that would potentially weaken the class and by extension, all the subclasses under it. I would instead prefer a subclass that leans into social utility, or specializes, which I could promptly ignore, rather than diluting an entire class that just barely started to appeal to me.
I know I've heard of lots of historical accounts of wilderness dwellers and other such "mountain men" knowing several languages from their experiences interacting with various peoples. For example, prospectors and loggers in early northern US/southern Canada would often speak English, Dutch, and French to trade with the various colonisers, as well as several dialects and languages spoken by the First Peoples of the region. A "mountain man" speaking 3+ languages wouldn't just be common, it'd be a necessity.
How well they'd speak those languages, well presumably well enough to get by. But broadly speaking when you range far and wide and interact with various peoples, you pick up how to speak to those peoples. Communication is a survival skill.
Find my D&D Beyond articles here
That's the point at which reality and 5e's streamlined mechanics start to diverge wildly, because comprehend languages offers a lot more than just "well enough to get by"
Those prospectors might have been able to haggle in French, but they probably weren't reading historical records of the Albigensian Crusade
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
But at the same time, there’s less than 20 languages in basic circulation for D&D per the current PHB- assuming we don’t count the 4 subsets of Primordial- so Doylistically the functional language pool is kept smaller for balance reasons and Watsonially there must be a broad suite of tongues and dialects covered under the language headings. Thus insofar as a real-life comparison can be expected to track to a game mechanic, it can be argued that you can still envision a Ranger as this kind of Mountain Man polyglot.
I mean, if you're that worried about rangers, just add Comprehend Languages to their spell list. In most campaigns anyone the PCs are expected to interact with will be able to do so with minimal effort because being told "you can't participate in this scene because you can't communicate" is terrible game play.
Exactly, I wouldn't call people with the the basic ability to ask for directions or order a meal proficient in a language.
But honestly, unless the DM actually makes languages relevant, then they are just fluff on the character sheet that gets ignored 99.9% of the game because everyone speaks Common
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
Yes, but these historical accounts I'm referencing aren't supernormal heroes, just average guys. I was merely refuting the notion that mountain men wouldn't have reason and capability to be polyglots in some capacity
Find my D&D Beyond articles here
No more or less than literally anyone else.
No one said they couldn't learn languages, just that they were no more capable or likely to know extra languages than anyone else. That would be like saying I know an engineer that knows four languages therefore all engineers must be expert linguists.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
That seems like a misunderstand or a misrepresentation of my point. I wasn't referencing/alluding to one example, but multiple. So many in fact it became a trope in fiction which reaches into D&D.
To co-opt your engineer example, it's like saying engineers have a historic reputation of coming up with ingenious ad hoc solutions, so a heroic engineer could improvise something fantastic. And that's how Tony Stark was able to build this in a cave, with a box of scraps!
Find my D&D Beyond articles here
Ok, since there are so many, can you provide examples of fantasy rangers that are known for their language skills?
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
Drizzt speaks five (Elvish, Dwarvish, Common, Undercommon, sign language). Aragorn speaks three, maybe four (Westron, Quenya, Sindarin, and maybe Dwarvish - enough to get by probably).
I can't think of any other fantasy Rangers but Daniel Boone was known for speaking many Native American languages and I'd say he was pretty Rangery and steeped in fantasy as well.
So other than Daniel Boone, your examples are characters that speak a similar number of languages as all D&D characters?
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
Four languages is more than most classes speak, I believe. Five certainly is.
And everyone get Common and 1 more to start, so Rangers getting 2 more puts them in exactly the right neighborhood for the archetype per fiction, apparently.
Actually the ‘24 ranger isn’t much of a linguist really. Earlier versions were to a much greater extent and that is where my ( and possibly many others) mindsets were. The ‘24 ranger gets their languages from their race and potentially background in ‘24 and none from their class. So while I will still argue that mountain men were probably far more polyglot than we rpoften recognize the ‘24 ranger isn’t a linguist so I withdraw my complaint against the banner et and insert a snarl at WotC for again gutting the ranger in some way.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Drizz't is an AD&D character, and thus gets languages based on Intelligence score. In any case, most realistic characters will know at least a bit of every language they regularly encounter and would need to use, which means large numbers of languages known should really be tied to the Guide, Merchant, Sage, and Sailor backgrounds (none of which actually do anything for languages known), not to a class.
The 24 Ranger gets two languages at level 2 from the Deft Explorer feature, in point of fact.
I think people are getting into a bit of apples vs oranges in talking about speaking the languages. They get comprehend languages, not tongues. They can understand what’s being said, but they can’t actually reply. It’s a pretty big distinction. And they’re getting it as a ritual, iirc. So most often, I’d imagine it being used to read something written down. Maybe understand people if you have enough prep time. But it won’t allow the
PDKBanneret to talk to anyone.That would make a lot of sense
It'd also be nice if there were a cantrip that allowed you to speak a language but not read it, it we really want something in the "enough to get by" range
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Without quoting the entire post from the first page of this thread..
To me, this feels like you're narrowly and inconsistently defining magic use. Sure, most the subclasses you list only allow for 2-3 spells to be cast, but my estimation, fully half of the subclasses for each of the parent classes offer generous amounts of magic use.
Saying psionics isn't magic is simply verbal gymnastics. Official D&D rules make no distinction between psionics and magic in the way MCDM's material does. For all intents and purposes, psionics are magic. So the soulknife and psi warrior most certainly do use magic.
I will concede that your post did make me go and actually look at the subclasses - and I'll also concede that the use of magic amongst subclasses from non-casting parent classes isn't as egregious as I'd thought.
That said, I'd like to see less magic use amongst non-casters. And adoption or adaptation of the way MCDM's FLEE, MORTALS distinguishes between magic and psionics.
I don’t have much skin in the game on this discussion, other than to say that I very much like the Ranger class as it is now and would not want to give up any of the existing design for the sake of some language feature which, historical though it may or may not be, would come at a cost of something else.
In my opinion, that would potentially weaken the class and by extension, all the subclasses under it. I would instead prefer a subclass that leans into social utility, or specializes, which I could promptly ignore, rather than diluting an entire class that just barely started to appeal to me.
DM mostly, Player occasionally | Session 0 form | He/Him/They/Them
EXTENDED SIGNATURE!
Doctor/Published Scholar/Science and Healthcare Advocate/Critter/Trekkie/Gandalf with a Glock
Try DDB free: Free Rules (2024), premade PCs, adventures, one shots, encounters, SC, homebrew, more
Answers: physical books, purchases, and subbing.
Check out my life-changing