This is an incredibly helpful topic thread. 2nd time dming and I have a druid a cleric and a wizard. Most where not that hard but when I read through wizard I was incredibly confused but this makes them make a bit more sense. Either way. After reading through all the class options I have to say I would say from a DM Perspective the hardest to easiest (Which should be in consideration simply because your understanding will effect your players.) From easiest to hardest:
I really think that when you're rating complexity, you need to have two different metrics - complexity while building and complexity while playing.
As previously discussed here, warlocks really illustrate this - they have the most decision points during creation/level up and it's important that those decisions work well together. But once those decisions have been made, playing that character is relatively straightforward. If you are building premade characters, I think a warlock is one of the best options to give a newbie.
Sorcerers are similar. Every spell choice is vital because you get so few of them. Choosing the right metamagics to synergize with those spells is also super important. But when you're playing, your spell pool is small and 90% of the time you're probably going to be either pairing Spell A with metamagic X or pairing 1-2 other spells with metamagic Y.
Contrast this with clerics who choose their domain and... well, that's pretty much it. But while playing, every single day they are hit with the task of looking over the entire class spell list and picking the spells that would be the best fit for the day. It's often just too much for a new player, and by the time they're finally getting a handle on the first level spells, along come the second levels. I have seen newbies absolutely shut down due to this choice overload.
I'd also like to point out that Ranger is ranked pretty low on most people's lists but it's actually pretty tough to play to its full potential. A new player is likely to be fine, but they won't be doing anything they couldn't do better as a rogue or a fighter. To really pull your weight as a Ranger you need to leverage all of your class features as well as being extremely savvy about how you use your limited magic. Its reputation as one of the weaker classes is due largely to this complexity.
And one other point I'd like to throw out in defense of my melee bros - Fighters and Barbarians (and other tanky melee builds) have battlefield positioning and tactics to worry about beyond just hitting things with pointy sticks. Holding the line is a thing that you can do well or poorly. That is an element of complexity that the wizard hiding behind a tree 60 feet away does not have to contend with. No class is truly devoid of decisions in combat.
IMO wizards are the class with highest likelihood to trip up players. I've even seen veteran players playing a wizard for the first time get confused about their spells.
Artificers infusions are the rules most likely to get confused about, so just make sure that is understood and shouldn't have a problem.
I think monks are harder to play than druids at high levels, with druids it's mostly just wild shape and spells. With monk you have to keep track of a billion different ways to use Ki, navigate around the battle field with low HP, and lay it tactically.
Even if monks are not as hard to play as druids, they should are certainly harder to play than a ranger and I'de say, maybe some other spellcasting classes as well.
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Ever wanted to talk about your parties' worst mistakes? Do so HERE. What's your favorite class, why? Share & explainHERE.
I think monks are harder to play than druids at high levels, with druids it's mostly just wild shape and spells. With monk you have to keep track of a billion different ways to use Ki, navigate around the battle field with low HP, and lay it tactically.
Even if monks are not as hard to play as druids, they should are certainly harder to play than a ranger and I'de say, maybe some other spellcasting classes as well.
Monk complexity depends on subclass. The base class has like 5 ways to use ki for most of the campaign. Druids have more ways to use wildshape as soon at they get it, let alone factoring spellcasting.
I do think that spellcaster that prepare spells are more newb friendly than others since they generally have more spells and can change them out daily.
I think monks are harder to play than druids at high levels, with druids it's mostly just wild shape and spells. With monk you have to keep track of a billion different ways to use Ki, navigate around the battle field with low HP, and lay it tactically.
Even if monks are not as hard to play as druids, they should are certainly harder to play than a ranger and I'de say, maybe some other spellcasting classes as well.
Monk complexity depends on subclass. The base class has like 5 ways to use ki for most of the campaign. Druids have more ways to use wildshape as soon at they get it, let alone factoring spellcasting.
I do think that spellcaster that prepare spells are more newb friendly than others since they generally have more spells and can change them out daily.
But (at least in my campaigns) the DM has to keep track of what druids can turn into when they ask. Not every player has a copy of the monster manual, so a lot of the work will likely fall on to the DM.
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BoringBard's long and tedious posts somehow manage to enrapture audiences. How? Because he used Charm Person, the #1 bard spell!
He/him pronouns. Call me Bard. PROUD NERD!
Ever wanted to talk about your parties' worst mistakes? Do so HERE. What's your favorite class, why? Share & explainHERE.
As with all classes, it's context dependent, especially on party composition. However, I'd say it is one of the harder ones. You're not so much playing for encounters but prepping the party for encounters, which takes a lot more though, perception and understanding to do well. That means it's hard for a new player.
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If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
I think monks are harder to play than druids at high levels, with druids it's mostly just wild shape and spells. With monk you have to keep track of a billion different ways to use Ki, navigate around the battle field with low HP, and lay it tactically.
Even if monks are not as hard to play as druids, they should are certainly harder to play than a ranger and I'de say, maybe some other spellcasting classes as well.
Monk complexity depends on subclass. The base class has like 5 ways to use ki for most of the campaign. Druids have more ways to use wildshape as soon at they get it, let alone factoring spellcasting.
I do think that spellcaster that prepare spells are more newb friendly than others since they generally have more spells and can change them out daily.
But (at least in my campaigns) the DM has to keep track of what druids can turn into when they ask. Not every player has a copy of the monster manual, so a lot of the work will likely fall on to the DM.
Oh my gods, your poor DM.
It is a player's responsibility to know what their features do. I (as a player) always prepare my wildshapes ahead of time like I prepare spells, and other druids I've played with do the same.
I think monks are harder to play than druids at high levels, with druids it's mostly just wild shape and spells. With monk you have to keep track of a billion different ways to use Ki, navigate around the battle field with low HP, and lay it tactically.
Even if monks are not as hard to play as druids, they should are certainly harder to play than a ranger and I'de say, maybe some other spellcasting classes as well.
Monk complexity depends on subclass. The base class has like 5 ways to use ki for most of the campaign. Druids have more ways to use wildshape as soon at they get it, let alone factoring spellcasting.
I do think that spellcaster that prepare spells are more newb friendly than others since they generally have more spells and can change them out daily.
But (at least in my campaigns) the DM has to keep track of what druids can turn into when they ask. Not every player has a copy of the monster manual, so a lot of the work will likely fall on to the DM.
Oh my gods, your poor DM.
It is a player's responsibility to know what their features do. I (as a player) always prepare my wildshapes ahead of time like I prepare spells, and other druids I've played with do the same.
True, but you cant excactly fault a new player who has never DMed for not paying $30 for the Monster Manual.
PS. i'm the DM
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BoringBard's long and tedious posts somehow manage to enrapture audiences. How? Because he used Charm Person, the #1 bard spell!
He/him pronouns. Call me Bard. PROUD NERD!
Ever wanted to talk about your parties' worst mistakes? Do so HERE. What's your favorite class, why? Share & explainHERE.
I have cards that have the statblock on them. Generally, the player has a list of what creatures they can turn into and often the card for it. Even now players will be treated like that - if they ask, I'll direct them to that list.
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If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
I have cards that have the statblock on them. Generally, the player has a list of what creatures they can turn into and often the card for it. Even now players will be treated like that - if they ask, I'll direct them to that list.
Would it be smart for me to create one (a list) for my player?
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BoringBard's long and tedious posts somehow manage to enrapture audiences. How? Because he used Charm Person, the #1 bard spell!
He/him pronouns. Call me Bard. PROUD NERD!
Ever wanted to talk about your parties' worst mistakes? Do so HERE. What's your favorite class, why? Share & explainHERE.
I have cards that have the statblock on them. Generally, the player has a list of what creatures they can turn into and often the card for it. Even now players will be treated like that - if they ask, I'll direct them to that list.
Would it be smart for me to create one (a list) for my player?
Probably. There are a dozen or so "good" options out of all beasts. Just need a few speed options, sense options, a few with advantage on stealth etc.
In addition to speeding things up, creating a list for a new-ish player is also good because it tells them something about the boundaries you are placing on their Wildshapes. I know Druid players who want to turn into dinosaurs, for instance, and that might not necessarily be allowed at your table. This is not just about power levels, but also about the theme of the campaign and what beasties the DM thinks is reasonable for that player's Druid to have seen.
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This is an incredibly helpful topic thread. 2nd time dming and I have a druid a cleric and a wizard. Most where not that hard but when I read through wizard I was incredibly confused but this makes them make a bit more sense. Either way. After reading through all the class options I have to say I would say from a DM Perspective the hardest to easiest (Which should be in consideration simply because your understanding will effect your players.) From easiest to hardest:
1: Ranger
2: Fighter
3: Barbarian
4: Rogue
5: Monk
6: Bard
7: Druid
8: Artificer
9: Paladin
10: Warlock
11: Sorcerer
12: Cleric
13: Wizard
I really think that when you're rating complexity, you need to have two different metrics - complexity while building and complexity while playing.
As previously discussed here, warlocks really illustrate this - they have the most decision points during creation/level up and it's important that those decisions work well together. But once those decisions have been made, playing that character is relatively straightforward. If you are building premade characters, I think a warlock is one of the best options to give a newbie.
Sorcerers are similar. Every spell choice is vital because you get so few of them. Choosing the right metamagics to synergize with those spells is also super important. But when you're playing, your spell pool is small and 90% of the time you're probably going to be either pairing Spell A with metamagic X or pairing 1-2 other spells with metamagic Y.
Contrast this with clerics who choose their domain and... well, that's pretty much it. But while playing, every single day they are hit with the task of looking over the entire class spell list and picking the spells that would be the best fit for the day. It's often just too much for a new player, and by the time they're finally getting a handle on the first level spells, along come the second levels. I have seen newbies absolutely shut down due to this choice overload.
I'd also like to point out that Ranger is ranked pretty low on most people's lists but it's actually pretty tough to play to its full potential. A new player is likely to be fine, but they won't be doing anything they couldn't do better as a rogue or a fighter. To really pull your weight as a Ranger you need to leverage all of your class features as well as being extremely savvy about how you use your limited magic. Its reputation as one of the weaker classes is due largely to this complexity.
And one other point I'd like to throw out in defense of my melee bros - Fighters and Barbarians (and other tanky melee builds) have battlefield positioning and tactics to worry about beyond just hitting things with pointy sticks. Holding the line is a thing that you can do well or poorly. That is an element of complexity that the wizard hiding behind a tree 60 feet away does not have to contend with. No class is truly devoid of decisions in combat.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
Are artificer easy to play ??
I'd say medium hard.
IMO wizards are the class with highest likelihood to trip up players. I've even seen veteran players playing a wizard for the first time get confused about their spells.
Artificers infusions are the rules most likely to get confused about, so just make sure that is understood and shouldn't have a problem.
I think monks are harder to play than druids at high levels, with druids it's mostly just wild shape and spells. With monk you have to keep track of a billion different ways to use Ki, navigate around the battle field with low HP, and lay it tactically.
Even if monks are not as hard to play as druids, they should are certainly harder to play than a ranger and I'de say, maybe some other spellcasting classes as well.
BoringBard's long and tedious posts somehow manage to enrapture audiences. How? Because he used Charm Person, the #1 bard spell!
He/him pronouns. Call me Bard. PROUD NERD!
Ever wanted to talk about your parties' worst mistakes? Do so HERE. What's your favorite class, why? Share & explain
HERE.Monk complexity depends on subclass. The base class has like 5 ways to use ki for most of the campaign. Druids have more ways to use wildshape as soon at they get it, let alone factoring spellcasting.
I do think that spellcaster that prepare spells are more newb friendly than others since they generally have more spells and can change them out daily.
But (at least in my campaigns) the DM has to keep track of what druids can turn into when they ask. Not every player has a copy of the monster manual, so a lot of the work will likely fall on to the DM.
BoringBard's long and tedious posts somehow manage to enrapture audiences. How? Because he used Charm Person, the #1 bard spell!
He/him pronouns. Call me Bard. PROUD NERD!
Ever wanted to talk about your parties' worst mistakes? Do so HERE. What's your favorite class, why? Share & explain
HERE.As with all classes, it's context dependent, especially on party composition. However, I'd say it is one of the harder ones. You're not so much playing for encounters but prepping the party for encounters, which takes a lot more though, perception and understanding to do well. That means it's hard for a new player.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Oh my gods, your poor DM.
It is a player's responsibility to know what their features do. I (as a player) always prepare my wildshapes ahead of time like I prepare spells, and other druids I've played with do the same.
True, but you cant excactly fault a new player who has never DMed for not paying $30 for the Monster Manual.
PS. i'm the DM
BoringBard's long and tedious posts somehow manage to enrapture audiences. How? Because he used Charm Person, the #1 bard spell!
He/him pronouns. Call me Bard. PROUD NERD!
Ever wanted to talk about your parties' worst mistakes? Do so HERE. What's your favorite class, why? Share & explain
HERE.I have cards that have the statblock on them. Generally, the player has a list of what creatures they can turn into and often the card for it. Even now players will be treated like that - if they ask, I'll direct them to that list.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Would it be smart for me to create one (a list) for my player?
BoringBard's long and tedious posts somehow manage to enrapture audiences. How? Because he used Charm Person, the #1 bard spell!
He/him pronouns. Call me Bard. PROUD NERD!
Ever wanted to talk about your parties' worst mistakes? Do so HERE. What's your favorite class, why? Share & explain
HERE.Probably. There are a dozen or so "good" options out of all beasts. Just need a few speed options, sense options, a few with advantage on stealth etc.
In addition to speeding things up, creating a list for a new-ish player is also good because it tells them something about the boundaries you are placing on their Wildshapes. I know Druid players who want to turn into dinosaurs, for instance, and that might not necessarily be allowed at your table. This is not just about power levels, but also about the theme of the campaign and what beasties the DM thinks is reasonable for that player's Druid to have seen.