None of the above, but you can reflavor things and DMs are generally permissive. For example, I know at my table, I'd let you reflavor a shield as a wok with an arm strap. If you want to wear cooking-themed gear, have at it.
Of COURSE! Great idea: he's using the frying pan as a shield. Standard shield stats, and same effect when wearing it in back as in wearing it front!
I haven't really been paying attention because this thread died 2 years ago and thread necromancy is discouraged, but...
This is pretty OP. You are describing an item that gives you a +2 AC bonus just for being on your person. You are describing bracers of defense, minus attunement and plus ability to wield as a weapon. This should be a very rare magic item, not a common pan.
On a different note for this resurrected thread - you want a wrought iron pan not a cast iron pan. Cast iron is brittle and the first time you use it your more than likely to have it shatter. Wrought iron is tough and malleable so it won’t shatter at worst it might dent a little and then you just put it on the fire, heat it up and beat the dent out.
I think it's actually been explained that thread necromancy is fine if it constructively builds on the topic and is simply not bumping a thread to stir the pot. This is a fun discussion, though definitely not something I'd probably have in my game outside of a one character joke maybe.
Isn't cast iron more liable to corrode/rust than wrought iron? I mean, that's why you're supposed to season cast iron pans ... as I discovered not too long ago.
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Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
On a different note for this resurrected thread - you want a wrought iron pan not a cast iron pan. Cast iron is brittle and the first time you use it your more than likely to have it shatter. Wrought iron is tough and malleable so it won’t shatter at worst it might dent a little and then you just put it on the fire, heat it up and beat the dent out.
Hardly. I have several cast iron skillets and frying pans. You could tune people up with a 10 inch cast iron skillet all day long and it shouldn’t shatter. If it does that means it has an air pocket, likely with moisture in it. That means it would likely shatter just in using it to cook. Just don’t hit anything like a stone wall or anything.
On a different note for this resurrected thread - you want a wrought iron pan not a cast iron pan. Cast iron is brittle and the first time you use it your more than likely to have it shatter. Wrought iron is tough and malleable so it won’t shatter at worst it might dent a little and then you just put it on the fire, heat it up and beat the dent out.
Hardly. I have several cast iron skillets and frying pans. You could tune people up with a 10 inch cast iron skillet all day long and it shouldn’t shatter. If it does that means it has an air pocket, likely with moisture in it. That means it would likely shatter just in using it to cook. Just don’t hit anything like a stone wall or anything.
That is really my point - an unprotected head you can kabong to your heart’s content but against anything really hard it will shatter. You can still get wrought iron but it’s going to cost you today. The vast majority of “wrought iron” today is actually mild steel that isn’t corrosion resistant so it has to be painted to protect it. Real wrought iron is somewhat corrosion resistant because of the traces of silicate slag in it. That doesn’t mean it won’t rust - it will just not as quickly as cast iron. (Even stainless steel will rust eventually if you don’t care for it) keep in mind that most (European) swords were actually wrought iron not steel. That is a large part of why true steel like “Damascus (wootz)” was so superior.
By the 10th Century, Europe had progressed to widespread production of good quality steel swords through quenching and tempering techniques. Damascus steel was superior because of the components that went into the alloy and possibly some differences in the way it was forged.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
It should not be allowed to be comparable to a club or a mace, which are specifically intended to be weapons. It's like saying that a metal ruler can be used as a short sword. If a frying pan is a mace then every commoner has one, and armourers will not bother making maces.
It sounds like a bit of a gimmick, but maybe has a place in a high-comedy type campaign or where you're effectively cartoon characters. I doubt it would feel fun to a DM who wants to run an epic encounter with a dragon and you're whacking it with a pan.
keep in mind that most (European) swords were actually wrought iron not steel. That is a large part of why true steel like “Damascus (wootz)” was so superior.
That is incorrect. The core was kept as iron for heavier choppers like axes because it was so good at absorbing impacts*1 iBut the cutting edges were most assuredly steel as soon as they learned how to make it since it holds a keener edge longer. For thinner blades like knives, daggers, and swords it was pretty much just steel through and through, and high quality steel at that,*2 spring steel in fact. Ever seen someone test a sword by holding the hilt and point and gently flexing the blade ever so slightly? That tests the quality of the spring steel. It isn’t something one does to a sword often, usually just when first acquiring it since it is bad for the steel. But knowing that it will flex means it is safe to block and parry with it, or hit an armored opponent since it will flex instead of deform.
My group’s main GM is a blacksmith (and a japanofile), I have learned quite a bit from him. (And I have some of the nicest knives you will never see. 😉)
*1(In fact, truly high quality modern axe heads are still mostly iron to absorb impact with a steel insert for the cutting edge to hold sharpness. Like the double bitted woodcutters axes. The second cutting edge is so you can flip it midday and still have a keen axe without needing to resharpen until the day is over. Log splitter are all cheep steel because sharpness is less relevant for splitting firewood.) *2(At least compared to the steel being produced in Japan as an example. Japanese Blacksmiths needed to invent the folding technique to work out the impurities from their native iron which is of lower quality. That’s why a European Longsword would flex on impact with something too hard, but a Japanese Longsword (Katana) bends and becomes unusable. That’s why Europeans sword masters invented sword techniques that allow for blocking and parrying, and Japanese sword masters invented Iaijutsu, a quick deflection before a single decisive strike. Banging two katanas against each other is a really quick way to destroy two katanas. In fact, the curve in the blade of a katana, as well as the hamon, comes from the clay sword makers apply to the spine of the sword. It prevents carbon from integrating with the spine keeping it as more pure iron so it can absorb impact like an axe head, but it allows the cutting edge to become steel and hold its edge better. The curve is caused by the differential thermodynamics between the iron spine and the steel edge which warps the blade into that classic katana shape.)
keep in mind that most (European) swords were actually wrought iron not steel. That is a large part of why true steel like “Damascus (wootz)” was so superior.
That is incorrect. The core was kept as iron for heavier choppers like axes because it was so good at absorbing impacts*1 iBut the cutting edges were most assuredly steel as soon as they learned how to make it since it holds a keener edge longer. For thinner blades like knives, daggers, and swords it was pretty much just steel through and through, and high quality steel at that,*2 spring steel in fact. Ever seen someone test a sword by holding the hilt and point and gently flexing the blade ever so slightly? That tests the quality of the spring steel. It isn’t something one does to a sword often, usually just when first acquiring it since it is bad for the steel. But knowing that it will flex means it is safe to block and parry with it, or hit an armored opponent since it will flex instead of deform.
My group’s main GM is a blacksmith (and a japanofile), I have learned quite a bit from him. (And I have some of the nicest knives you will never see. 😉)
*1(In fact, truly high quality modern axe heads are still mostly iron to absorb impact with a steel insert for the cutting edge to hold sharpness. Like the double bitted woodcutters axes. The second cutting edge is so you can flip it midday and still have a keen axe without needing to resharpen until the day is over. Log splitter are all cheep steel because sharpness is less relevant for splitting firewood.) *2(At least compared to the steel being produced in Japan as an example. Japanese Blacksmiths needed to invent the folding technique to work out the impurities from their native iron which is of lower quality. That’s why a European Longsword would flex on impact with something too hard, but a Japanese Longsword (Katana) bends and becomes unusable. That’s why Europeans sword masters invented sword techniques that allow for blocking and parrying, and Japanese sword masters invented Iaijutsu, a quick deflection before a single decisive strike. Banging two katanas against each other is a really quick way to destroy two katanas. In fact, the curve in the blade of a katana, as well as the hamon, comes from the clay sword makers apply to the spine of the sword. It prevents carbon from integrating with the spine keeping it as more pure iron so it can absorb impact like an axe head, but it allows the cutting edge to become steel and hold its edge better. The curve is caused by the differential thermodynamics between the iron spine and the steel edge which warps the blade into that classic katana shape.)
Going off into steel metallurgy but…. Keep in mind that Europe’s Iron Age starts around 1000 BCE while true crucible steel is not developed until 500 BCE and the spread of of crucible steel was always limited. Wootz was made in a number of places in India and does seem to have spread to western China, Turkmenistan and possibly Bulgaria (Noric steel of Roman age). But never made it into Europe except as Damascus blades made in the Middle East. Pattern welded blades from Europe are often better described as “steeled” - made from welded Layers of mixed carbon irons to get the benefits of the toughness of wrought iron (essentially carbon free) with the hardness of high carbon steel ( 1.2 -1.7% C) which is normally fairly brittle like cast iron (@3% C). By welding and folding brittle high carbon iron and soft malleable low carbon iron (pattern welding) the carbon diffuses from the high C regions to the low C regions leaving you with thin interwoven “layers” that do act much like modern medium carbon spring steels. So early European (especially) Iron Age swords are basically work hardened wrought iron with a possibly “steeled” edge while latter ones are much the same when inferior and the more expensive are pattern welded or made of medium carbon steels not the high carbon crucible steels. These aren’t made in Europe until the methods of crucible steel making are reinvented in Sheffield England in the early 1800s.
by the Middle Ages yes most swords are made of some sort of steel with only inferior blades still being made of mostly wrought iron ( and sometimes bending instead of breaking when hit on the side in a block) up until the Bessemer process getting good steel was always a problem.
Wait guys I have a very valid point think of our modern day frying pans we put diamonds into them. So a fun idea could be depending on which gem or gems you chose to put into the pan it could do like the dragonborn breath weapons. I hope you enjoy this interesting idea hope you all stay safe and happy :)
The diamonds used are to help provide a tough nonstick surface. You are not supposed to heat them excessively - keep in mind that diamond is carbon add heat and air (oxygen) and diamonds burn. Unless you want to start making use of new age crystal magic theory adding gemstones is just decoration.
Very true , paper doesn’t ignite Until 451F diamonds considerably higher but I don’t want my diamonds exposed to red dragon breath either. I was ( many posts ago) suggesting that the OP should be using a wrought iron pan not cast iron as cast iron could shatter banging on swords, maces, shields and armor while wrought iron at worst would dent. ( And steel would be really too expensive to be making pans out of). Boy have we gotten away from the original frying pan as a weapon post 🤪😳😜
The diamonds used are to help provide a tough nonstick surface. You are not supposed to heat them excessively - keep in mind that diamond is carbon add heat and air (oxygen) and diamonds burn. Unless you want to start making use of new age crystal magic theory adding gemstones is just decoration.
In an atmosphere of pure oxygen, perhaps, but in normal air, you are not likely to ignite them. And it is not like that level of chemistry is applicable to any edition of D&D
Yeah, the carbon in diamonds are very well bonded. And without a high concentration of oxygen will take a constant heat of around 900°C to burn in the atmosphere. With enough extra oxygen, it can maintain its own combustion.
The diamonds used are to help provide a tough nonstick surface. You are not supposed to heat them excessively - keep in mind that diamond is carbon add heat and air (oxygen) and diamonds burn. Unless you want to start making use of new age crystal magic theory adding gemstones is just decoration.
In an atmosphere of pure oxygen, perhaps, but in normal air, you are not likely to ignite them. And it is not like that level of chemistry is applicable to any edition of D&D
Yeah, the carbon in diamonds are very well bonded. And without a high concentration of oxygen will take a constant heat of around 900°C to burn in the atmosphere. With enough extra oxygen, it can maintain its own combustion.
.....I love how just my simple idea of adding some extra damage to the frying pan with gems and there different effects turned into a whole science discussion, i love this place.
This is pretty OP. You are describing an item that gives you a +2 AC bonus just for being on your person. You are describing [Tooltip Not Found], minus attunement and plus ability to wield as a weapon. This should be a very rare magic item, not a common pan.
I guess you're misunderstanding me, and the previous poster...?
I'm saying, my GM could treat the frying pan as a slotted standard shield for rear attacks. To my knowledge, you can't stack shields, so there would only be his standard AC of 16 (including shield)... but my little kobold would still get his shield bonus when attacked from behind.
This is pretty OP. You are describing an item that gives you a +2 AC bonus just for being on your person. You are describing [Tooltip Not Found], minus attunement and plus ability to wield as a weapon. This should be a very rare magic item, not a common pan.
I guess you're misunderstanding me, and the previous poster...?
I'm saying, my GM could treat the frying pan as a slotted standard shield for rear attacks. To my knowledge, you can't stack shields, so there would only be his standard AC of 16 (including shield)... but my little kobold would still get his shield bonus when attacked from behind.
hmmmm what about a crockpot where would that fall under? would it be a beefy shield or a pretty good helmet??
This is pretty OP. You are describing an item that gives you a +2 AC bonus just for being on your person. You are describing [Tooltip Not Found], minus attunement and plus ability to wield as a weapon. This should be a very rare magic item, not a common pan.
I guess you're misunderstanding me, and the previous poster...?
I'm saying, my GM could treat the frying pan as a slotted standard shield for rear attacks. To my knowledge, you can't stack shields, so there would only be his standard AC of 16 (including shield)... but my little kobold would still get his shield bonus when attacked from behind.
Again, D&D 5E does not differentiate between a creature's front or back. There are no facing rules. You don't get any bonuses for walking around with a normal shield strapped to your back, wearing a frying pan shouldn't be any different.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
This is pretty OP. You are describing an item that gives you a +2 AC bonus just for being on your person. You are describing bracers of defense, minus attunement and plus ability to wield as a weapon. This should be a very rare magic item, not a common pan.
I guess you're misunderstanding me, and the previous poster...?
I'm saying, my GM could treat the frying pan as a slotted standard shield for rear attacks. To my knowledge, you can't stack shields, so there would only be his standard AC of 16 (including shield)... but my little kobold would still get his shield bonus when attacked from behind.
Sorry, didn't realize my tooltip was broken, fixed it.
You are describing getting a shield bonus with your hands empty. That is something only rare magic items that require attunement can do. And those rare items can't be switched to weapon mode (as it were), now you are describing legendary magic items.
Also, still no facing rules. Been mentioned a few times now.
Going off into steel metallurgy but…. Keep in mind that Europe’s Iron Age starts around 1000 BCE while true crucible steel is not developed until 500 BCE and the spread of of crucible steel was always limited. Wootz was made in a number of places in India and does seem to have spread to western China, Turkmenistan and possibly Bulgaria (Noric steel of Roman age). But never made it into Europe except as Damascus blades made in the Middle East. Pattern welded blades from Europe are often better described as “steeled” - made from welded Layers of mixed carbon irons to get the benefits of the toughness of wrought iron (essentially carbon free) with the hardness of high carbon steel ( 1.2 -1.7% C) which is normally fairly brittle like cast iron (@3% C). By welding and folding brittle high carbon iron and soft malleable low carbon iron (pattern welding) the carbon diffuses from the high C regions to the low C regions leaving you with thin interwoven “layers” that do act much like modern medium carbon spring steels. So early European (especially) Iron Age swords are basically work hardened wrought iron with a possibly “steeled” edge while latter ones are much the same when inferior and the more expensive are pattern welded or made of medium carbon steels not the high carbon crucible steels. These aren’t made in Europe until the methods of crucible steel making are reinvented in Sheffield England in the early 1800s.
by the Middle Ages yes most swords are made of some sort of steel with only inferior blades still being made of mostly wrought iron ( and sometimes bending instead of breaking when hit on the side in a block) up until the Bessemer process getting good steel was always a problem.
Remember the part where I mentioned that my group’s main GM is a blacksmith…?
He also happens to be one of my three best friends on the entire planet, the other two being his girlfriend (partner, whatever), and my own wife. The two of them and I have been close friends for the last half of our lives, having known each other a full decade before I even met my wife. I don’t just kindasorta know someone who is a blacksmith, I don’t just have someone who happens to be a blacksmith among my “casual acquaintances.” I genuinely know someone who is an actual blacksmith, wirh his own forge and anvil and everything. He is someone I spend time with on a scale ranging from weekly to daily when there isn’t a pandemic afoot. I interact with him more often than I do with my own parents. This is someone who has keys to my home to see to my family in case of emergencies, and I have keys to his house as well. (I sold him that house back when I was a Realtor for crying out loud.) When his girlfriend (partner, whatever) bought him a standing drill press for Christmas a few years back to add to his workshop, she bought it from my father,* and I helped her carry the damned thing out of his shop, into her truck, and then out of her truck and into that house I sold them, and the whole length of the house to the stairs, and then all the way down into the basement, and then back the whole length of the house to hide it in the old coal room until Christmas morning. (My dad* gifted him his belt grinder too.) The four of us go out together and do other stuff besides D&D because we are such close friends. They are the only “non-family” my wife and I exchange gifts with. (🐂💩, I got blood family that’s less family to me than the two of them.) I am not simply remembering some stuff I learned in history history or science classes, or things I picked up through some leisure reading, or looked stuff up online. I have actually had it shown and explained to me by someone who does the thing firsthand. I have stood in his workshop, living room, and kitchen while he showed me various projects in different stages of completion and educated me on various nuances of different parts of his craft. I have stood next to his forge and watched him work and asked him questions to educate myself. I have three knives he has made for me, and my wife has two that he made for her. One of mine and one of hers he are forge welded steel. In fact, when he crafted hers he also forge welded some additional decorative embellishments combining layered steel and copper, known as “mokume-gane.” The name references the wood grain pattern it resembles, the inevitable patina on the copper layers will eventually change the color to even resemble wood as well. He also explained to me another method he could have used but didn’t. That method would have entailed folding it fewer times to keep a looser pattern, and then apply a corrosive that would react to the copy but not the steel. That technique would have resulted in areas of negative space with a nearly organic appearance. However, while a knife can surely be a work of art, it is primarily a tool and he felt the added structural integrity was more important than the aesthetic. He also makes the handles/hilts, sometimes from bone or antler for a more Native American asthetic, or wood and leather for a more “Eurasian” look.
*(The reason my father had that equipment that now belongs to my friend is because my father was a specialist tool & die manufacturer, and I apprenticed* to him for three years before I realized it wasn’t the vocation for me. (I hated sweating rust into the sheets at night.) I have personally worked with various grades of steel, mostly tool steel, high speed steel, and carbide (which is super brittle), but even cheaper crappy steel too. And that was pre-CAD. I worked using grinding machines with hand turned tables so precise I could shave 1/10,000 of an inch off an endmill’s edge without even looking, or 1/100,000 of an inch if I actually looked at the tics on the dial instead of the tool I was working on. (I didn’t grind the carbide bits, my dad did. I wasn’t good enough to do something that delicate and pricy. But I was much better at soldering than he was, I was more patient. My jobs with those carbide pieces included soldering the bits into the shafts and then coating the tools in a melted substance the cooled and hardened quickly. It provided a protective coating against “dings” during transport and storage, and it also oiled the metal for added protection against oxidation too.) Apparently at the one company, whoever operated the machine that used those tools to cut specific things was also impatient because that company sure chewed through a lot of those. And they were not cheap. If I recall, they were used to make parts that Astronauts (and cosmonauts) count on to keep the atmosphere inside their crafts. That company may supply the private sector now too, I honestly couldn’t say.
I genuinely possess more than a passing familiarity with steel.
Now that I’ve established the bonafides for what I’m about to say, I have a few corrections for you:
Crucible steel is not the one and only “true steel.”
Crucible steel is not the one and only “true steel.” In fact, your so called “true crucible steel” is now long obsolete thanks to the invention of the electric arc furnace. Crucible steel was replaced by the same tool steel, high speed steel, and carbide I used to personally work with at my dad’s shop. Any piece of beaten (not cast) metal with an iron:carbon ratio within the right range is wrought iron. The only significant difference between wrought iron and steel is that the iron contains slag, impurities left after the smelting process. The crucible method reduces the possibility of impurities getting in during smelting, while simultaneously causing the various elements within the base material to separate into layers. (Kinda like IItalian dressing before you shake it.) Once cooled, the overwhelming majority of those impurities can be easily knocked off the puck. The few remaining impurities are what causes the telltale banding indicative of crucible steel.
However, there’s another way to make steel. Wrought iron can be refined into steel by simply heating and hammering enough it to literally beat the slag out. (Whenever you see a blacksmith hammering a piece of glowing steel and the metal seems to “shed” that scaly substance, that’s the slag getting worked out.) So you see, since European smiths had wrought iron, they could make steel without crucibles. And it basically happened during the process they were already gonna use to shape the metal into a finished product. All they had to do was a little extra heating and hammering and they had reasonably decent quality steel. Whether it gets that way by being melted all together, or banged all together, it’s still steel. They aren’t the same grades of steel by any means, but that didn’t matter at the time.
That’s because it was still the (pun incoming) cutting edge tech at that time. 😉 Since they knew how to get the lower carbon parts distributed correctly to best absorb impacts and keep the whole blade from being brittle, and the higher carbon parts to the edges to hold a keener edge longer, it worked beautifully, as proven by Rome’s longstanding overall success. (You know, before the schism, and eventual collapse of both Roman Empires. But that was the “Early Middle Ages,” so even by your admission, steel was already everywhere everywhere.)
The most easily recognizable hallmark indicator if something is iron or steel, even from a photo, can be found in the decorations. The decorations on objects made from steel can hold very fine curved lines, as opposed to larger, simpler, blocky decorations. The technical terms are curvilinear and rectilinear. (Autocorrect for the win!) Thats the easiest thing for even a “layperson” to spot it something was made from steel. Such embellishments were made possible specifically because of the shifts from cast bronze to cast iron to wrought iron to steel.
That series of steps was highly expedited thanks to The Roman Empire, and it’s conquest driven economy. Every advancement in metallurgy that occurred anywhere in the empire was implemented everywhere at the speed of roads. Roads that were the arteries and veins for the greatest military-industrial complex the world had ever known. The Roman Empire definitely had the capability to produce metal meeting all requirements to call it “steel.” By the Middle Ages, European smiths regularly adorned high ticket steel items by engraving it with fine, curving lines, such as high-end weapons and armor from Field to Plate. Smiths had to embellish their wares for customers who knew little to nothing of metallurgy and were expected to pay comparatively exorbitant amounts of money for arms and armor. That was for two main reasons.
Those customers were all testostetronic professional warlord subchiefs. (That’s what being a “landed noble” meant, you were an authorized subchief somewhere in a rigidly hierarchy from knights to dukes.) As a landed noble, you basically only two real responsibilities. One was boring administrative stuff to manage and promote the welfare of their lands and serfs. That also included the admin to levy both conscripts and taxes. And it had to be enough taxes to not only cover your own income, but also kick enough up the chain for the subchiefs you report to to get their slice and pass it on so the king could get his. The other responsibility was being a well trained, highly skilled, and exceedingly well equipped professional warrior. That meant either being a murdermachine, commanding murdermachines, or both. As professional testistitronic murdurmachines, obviously they were going to compete over ev-ver-ry-thing. Stuff like who’s car armor was the coolest. To “keep up with Sir Jones, the frivolous,” it behoved a noble to sport the fanciest look they could afford to not lose their ranking among the other subchiefs. That was one of the two main reasons arms and armor had to have varying tiers of fancy at different price points.
But there was another major reason. Picture it: Europe, the Middle Ages, and you are one of your warlord’s (king’s) professional subchiefs. You are expected to fight for your recognized warlord whenever called upon, and to equip yourself accordingly. You are shopping for the very equipment you will be literally trusting with your life. This is the stuff that will hopefully keep you alive until you can finally stop being a murdurmachine and go back to peacefully being a department manager where (hopefully) nobody is trying yo kill you. And you know that the best equipment will have a slight patterning from the construction, and that a clear indicator if the job was done right is it can hold a nice, clear, crisp, fine, curved line etched into the surface (since steel holds an edge better than iron). Which one are you gonna buy? That’s right, you’re gonna buy the fanciest armor you can afford since you know that means it’s the top of the line in an arms race. (One that supposedly started when that guy konked his brother with an ass’s jawbone way back when more than 60,000 years ago, and never ended).
Wootz steel was absolutely not a result of pattern/forge welding.
Edit: On a reread of your post I realized I had misunderstood your comment in this regard as it was a line about crucible steel in the middle of a paragraph about forge welded steel. But I figured, “I typed all of this 👇, ain’t gonna delete it now.
Wootz steel was absolutely not a result of pattern or forge welding. (Not at all.) The pucks of crucible steel that were exported were called “Wootz.” That telltale banding pattern unique to Wootz was the result of the early techniques for creating crucible steel. That crucible technique was actually the thing that made products made from it (like Damascus Swords) the bleeding edge in metallurgy (with periodic improvements) for around 2,000 years until that arc furnace I mentioned got invented.
That signature banding occurred because the crucibles couldn’t quite maintain sufficiently high temperatures for a long enough duration. That meant the liquified higher and lower carbon materials couldn’t quite thoroughly homogenize, which caused layers between them from the differential cooling. That means even crucible steel had areas of relatively lower and higher carbon content and some impurities within the steel. While it was most definitely a technological improvement over forge welding, or steel refined from wrought iron, it was also in at least that one regard not entirely dissimilar from other steel.
The main distinction is that there is little to no chance of delimitation caused by the impurities that might have lead to stress lines getting into the finished product. (That means you wouldn’t have to worry about a “Narsil” type of situation.)
Keep in mind,, the concept of crucible steel was not entirely unknown to European metallurgists, but the manufacturing process wasn’t actively pursued my European metallurgists before the pre-industrial era. It was likely deemed less than necessary and not cost effective before then. That’s because the iron ore they had access to was pretty pure in the first place compared to ore from Asia, including the Indian subcontinent where the crucible method was invented. That meant the smelted iron was also pretty pure, and the steel they could create from that iron didn’t require enough additional labor to make the crucible process that necessary an advancement. At least not for what they were making, and especially compared to metallurgy in Asia, Japan in particular. The reason Japanese Swordmakers developed the repeated folding process they used was because their iron was so riddled with slag they had to keep re-folding it to repeatedly expose new surface area in order to get more of the slag out. European smiths didn’t have that problem to solve, they just refined wrought iron into steel with a fraction of the effort.
European metallurgists started to get curious a bout the crucible process in, what, the mid-late 1,700s. Right? That’s because there were new demands created by emerging industries. They basically ignored it for over 1,500 years. Less than 100 years later British metallurgists had made two of the most significant advancements to the process ever devised: forcing air through the crucible, and the use of coke in place of charcoal or coal in the process.
I haven't really been paying attention because this thread died 2 years ago and thread necromancy is discouraged, but...
This is pretty OP. You are describing an item that gives you a +2 AC bonus just for being on your person. You are describing bracers of defense, minus attunement and plus ability to wield as a weapon. This should be a very rare magic item, not a common pan.
On a different note for this resurrected thread - you want a wrought iron pan not a cast iron pan. Cast iron is brittle and the first time you use it your more than likely to have it shatter. Wrought iron is tough and malleable so it won’t shatter at worst it might dent a little and then you just put it on the fire, heat it up and beat the dent out.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
I think it's actually been explained that thread necromancy is fine if it constructively builds on the topic and is simply not bumping a thread to stir the pot. This is a fun discussion, though definitely not something I'd probably have in my game outside of a one character joke maybe.
Isn't cast iron more liable to corrode/rust than wrought iron? I mean, that's why you're supposed to season cast iron pans ... as I discovered not too long ago.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
And your grills too.
They don’t actually make wrought iron anymore IRL, it’s still cast iron. But no, it rusts just as readily, that’s why wrought iron has to be painted.
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Hardly. I have several cast iron skillets and frying pans. You could tune people up with a 10 inch cast iron skillet all day long and it shouldn’t shatter. If it does that means it has an air pocket, likely with moisture in it. That means it would likely shatter just in using it to cook. Just don’t hit anything like a stone wall or anything.
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That is really my point - an unprotected head you can kabong to your heart’s content but against anything really hard it will shatter. You can still get wrought iron but it’s going to cost you today. The vast majority of “wrought iron” today is actually mild steel that isn’t corrosion resistant so it has to be painted to protect it. Real wrought iron is somewhat corrosion resistant because of the traces of silicate slag in it. That doesn’t mean it won’t rust - it will just not as quickly as cast iron. (Even stainless steel will rust eventually if you don’t care for it)
keep in mind that most (European) swords were actually wrought iron not steel. That is a large part of why true steel like “Damascus (wootz)” was so superior.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
By the 10th Century, Europe had progressed to widespread production of good quality steel swords through quenching and tempering techniques. Damascus steel was superior because of the components that went into the alloy and possibly some differences in the way it was forged.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
It is an improvised weapon.
It should not be allowed to be comparable to a club or a mace, which are specifically intended to be weapons. It's like saying that a metal ruler can be used as a short sword. If a frying pan is a mace then every commoner has one, and armourers will not bother making maces.
It sounds like a bit of a gimmick, but maybe has a place in a high-comedy type campaign or where you're effectively cartoon characters. I doubt it would feel fun to a DM who wants to run an epic encounter with a dragon and you're whacking it with a pan.
That is incorrect. The core was kept as iron for heavier choppers like axes because it was so good at absorbing impacts*1 iBut the cutting edges were most assuredly steel as soon as they learned how to make it since it holds a keener edge longer. For thinner blades like knives, daggers, and swords it was pretty much just steel through and through, and high quality steel at that,*2 spring steel in fact. Ever seen someone test a sword by holding the hilt and point and gently flexing the blade ever so slightly? That tests the quality of the spring steel. It isn’t something one does to a sword often, usually just when first acquiring it since it is bad for the steel. But knowing that it will flex means it is safe to block and parry with it, or hit an armored opponent since it will flex instead of deform.
My group’s main GM is a blacksmith (and a japanofile), I have learned quite a bit from him. (And I have some of the nicest knives you will never see. 😉)
*1(In fact, truly high quality modern axe heads are still mostly iron to absorb impact with a steel insert for the cutting edge to hold sharpness. Like the double bitted woodcutters axes. The second cutting edge is so you can flip it midday and still have a keen axe without needing to resharpen until the day is over. Log splitter are all cheep steel because sharpness is less relevant for splitting firewood.)
*2(At least compared to the steel being produced in Japan as an example. Japanese Blacksmiths needed to invent the folding technique to work out the impurities from their native iron which is of lower quality. That’s why a European Longsword would flex on impact with something too hard, but a Japanese Longsword (Katana) bends and becomes unusable. That’s why Europeans sword masters invented sword techniques that allow for blocking and parrying, and Japanese sword masters invented Iaijutsu, a quick deflection before a single decisive strike. Banging two katanas against each other is a really quick way to destroy two katanas. In fact, the curve in the blade of a katana, as well as the hamon, comes from the clay sword makers apply to the spine of the sword. It prevents carbon from integrating with the spine keeping it as more pure iron so it can absorb impact like an axe head, but it allows the cutting edge to become steel and hold its edge better. The curve is caused by the differential thermodynamics between the iron spine and the steel edge which warps the blade into that classic katana shape.)
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Going off into steel metallurgy but…. Keep in mind that Europe’s Iron Age starts around 1000 BCE while true crucible steel is not developed until 500 BCE and the spread of of crucible steel was always limited. Wootz was made in a number of places in India and does seem to have spread to western China, Turkmenistan and possibly Bulgaria (Noric steel of Roman age). But never made it into Europe except as Damascus blades made in the Middle East. Pattern welded blades from Europe are often better described as “steeled” - made from welded Layers of mixed carbon irons to get the benefits of the toughness of wrought iron (essentially carbon free) with the hardness of high carbon steel ( 1.2 -1.7% C) which is normally fairly brittle like cast iron (@3% C). By welding and folding brittle high carbon iron and soft malleable low carbon iron (pattern welding) the carbon diffuses from the high C regions to the low C regions leaving you with thin interwoven “layers” that do act much like modern medium carbon spring steels. So early European (especially) Iron Age swords are basically work hardened wrought iron with a possibly “steeled” edge while latter ones are much the same when inferior and the more expensive are pattern welded or made of medium carbon steels not the high carbon crucible steels. These aren’t made in Europe until the methods of crucible steel making are reinvented in Sheffield England in the early 1800s.
by the Middle Ages yes most swords are made of some sort of steel with only inferior blades still being made of mostly wrought iron ( and sometimes bending instead of breaking when hit on the side in a block) up until the Bessemer process getting good steel was always a problem.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Wait guys I have a very valid point think of our modern day frying pans we put diamonds into them. So a fun idea could be depending on which gem or gems you chose to put into the pan it could do like the dragonborn breath weapons. I hope you enjoy this interesting idea hope you all stay safe and happy :)
The diamonds used are to help provide a tough nonstick surface. You are not supposed to heat them excessively - keep in mind that diamond is carbon add heat and air (oxygen) and diamonds burn. Unless you want to start making use of new age crystal magic theory adding gemstones is just decoration.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Very true , paper doesn’t ignite Until 451F diamonds considerably higher but I don’t want my diamonds exposed to red dragon breath either. I was ( many posts ago) suggesting that the OP should be using a wrought iron pan not cast iron as cast iron could shatter banging on swords, maces, shields and armor while wrought iron at worst would dent. ( And steel would be really too expensive to be making pans out of). Boy have we gotten away from the original frying pan as a weapon post 🤪😳😜
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Yeah, the carbon in diamonds are very well bonded. And without a high concentration of oxygen will take a constant heat of around 900°C to burn in the atmosphere. With enough extra oxygen, it can maintain its own combustion.
.....I love how just my simple idea of adding some extra damage to the frying pan with gems and there different effects turned into a whole science discussion, i love this place.
I guess you're misunderstanding me, and the previous poster...?
I'm saying, my GM could treat the frying pan as a slotted standard shield for rear attacks. To my knowledge, you can't stack shields, so there would only be his standard AC of 16 (including shield)... but my little kobold would still get his shield bonus when attacked from behind.
hmmmm what about a crockpot where would that fall under? would it be a beefy shield or a pretty good helmet??
Again, D&D 5E does not differentiate between a creature's front or back. There are no facing rules. You don't get any bonuses for walking around with a normal shield strapped to your back, wearing a frying pan shouldn't be any different.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Sorry, didn't realize my tooltip was broken, fixed it.
You are describing getting a shield bonus with your hands empty. That is something only rare magic items that require attunement can do. And those rare items can't be switched to weapon mode (as it were), now you are describing legendary magic items.
Also, still no facing rules. Been mentioned a few times now.
Remember the part where I mentioned that my group’s main GM is a blacksmith…?
He also happens to be one of my three best friends on the entire planet, the other two being his girlfriend (partner, whatever), and my own wife. The two of them and I have been close friends for the last half of our lives, having known each other a full decade before I even met my wife. I don’t just kindasorta know someone who is a blacksmith, I don’t just have someone who happens to be a blacksmith among my “casual acquaintances.” I genuinely know someone who is an actual blacksmith, wirh his own forge and anvil and everything.
He is someone I spend time with on a scale ranging from weekly to daily when there isn’t a pandemic afoot. I interact with him more often than I do with my own parents. This is someone who has keys to my home to see to my family in case of emergencies, and I have keys to his house as well. (I sold him that house back when I was a Realtor for crying out loud.) When his girlfriend (partner, whatever) bought him a standing drill press for Christmas a few years back to add to his workshop, she bought it from my father,* and I helped her carry the damned thing out of his shop, into her truck, and then out of her truck and into that house I sold them, and the whole length of the house to the stairs, and then all the way down into the basement, and then back the whole length of the house to hide it in the old coal room until Christmas morning. (My dad* gifted him his belt grinder too.) The four of us go out together and do other stuff besides D&D because we are such close friends. They are the only “non-family” my wife and I exchange gifts with. (🐂💩, I got blood family that’s less family to me than the two of them.)
I am not simply remembering some stuff I learned in history history or science classes, or things I picked up through some leisure reading, or looked stuff up online. I have actually had it shown and explained to me by someone who does the thing firsthand. I have stood in his workshop, living room, and kitchen while he showed me various projects in different stages of completion and educated me on various nuances of different parts of his craft. I have stood next to his forge and watched him work and asked him questions to educate myself. I have three knives he has made for me, and my wife has two that he made for her. One of mine and one of hers he are forge welded steel. In fact, when he crafted hers he also forge welded some additional decorative embellishments combining layered steel and copper, known as “mokume-gane.” The name references the wood grain pattern it resembles, the inevitable patina on the copper layers will eventually change the color to even resemble wood as well. He also explained to me another method he could have used but didn’t. That method would have entailed folding it fewer times to keep a looser pattern, and then apply a corrosive that would react to the copy but not the steel. That technique would have resulted in areas of negative space with a nearly organic appearance. However, while a knife can surely be a work of art, it is primarily a tool and he felt the added structural integrity was more important than the aesthetic. He also makes the handles/hilts, sometimes from bone or antler for a more Native American asthetic, or wood and leather for a more “Eurasian” look.
*(The reason my father had that equipment that now belongs to my friend is because my father was a specialist tool & die manufacturer, and I apprenticed* to him for three years before I realized it wasn’t the vocation for me. (I hated sweating rust into the sheets at night.) I have personally worked with various grades of steel, mostly tool steel, high speed steel, and carbide (which is super brittle), but even cheaper crappy steel too.
And that was pre-CAD. I worked using grinding machines with hand turned tables so precise I could shave 1/10,000 of an inch off an endmill’s edge without even looking, or 1/100,000 of an inch if I actually looked at the tics on the dial instead of the tool I was working on. (I didn’t grind the carbide bits, my dad did. I wasn’t good enough to do something that delicate and pricy. But I was much better at soldering than he was, I was more patient. My jobs with those carbide pieces included soldering the bits into the shafts and then coating the tools in a melted substance the cooled and hardened quickly. It provided a protective coating against “dings” during transport and storage, and it also oiled the metal for added protection against oxidation too.)
Apparently at the one company, whoever operated the machine that used those tools to cut specific things was also impatient because that company sure chewed through a lot of those. And they were not cheap. If I recall, they were used to make parts that Astronauts (and cosmonauts) count on to keep the atmosphere inside their crafts. That company may supply the private sector now too, I honestly couldn’t say.
I genuinely possess more than a passing familiarity with steel.
Now that I’ve established the bonafides for what I’m about to say, I have a few corrections for you:
Crucible steel is not the one and only “true steel.” In fact, your so called “true crucible steel” is now long obsolete thanks to the invention of the electric arc furnace. Crucible steel was replaced by the same tool steel, high speed steel, and carbide I used to personally work with at my dad’s shop. Any piece of beaten (not cast) metal with an iron:carbon ratio within the right range is wrought iron. The only significant difference between wrought iron and steel is that the iron contains slag, impurities left after the smelting process. The crucible method reduces the possibility of impurities getting in during smelting, while simultaneously causing the various elements within the base material to separate into layers. (Kinda like IItalian dressing before you shake it.) Once cooled, the overwhelming majority of those impurities can be easily knocked off the puck. The few remaining impurities are what causes the telltale banding indicative of crucible steel.
However, there’s another way to make steel. Wrought iron can be refined into steel by simply heating and hammering enough it to literally beat the slag out. (Whenever you see a blacksmith hammering a piece of glowing steel and the metal seems to “shed” that scaly substance, that’s the slag getting worked out.) So you see, since European smiths had wrought iron, they could make steel without crucibles. And it basically happened during the process they were already gonna use to shape the metal into a finished product. All they had to do was a little extra heating and hammering and they had reasonably decent quality steel. Whether it gets that way by being melted all together, or banged all together, it’s still steel. They aren’t the same grades of steel by any means, but that didn’t matter at the time.
That’s because it was still the (pun incoming) cutting edge tech at that time. 😉 Since they knew how to get the lower carbon parts distributed correctly to best absorb impacts and keep the whole blade from being brittle, and the higher carbon parts to the edges to hold a keener edge longer, it worked beautifully, as proven by Rome’s longstanding overall success. (You know, before the schism, and eventual collapse of both Roman Empires. But that was the “Early Middle Ages,” so even by your admission, steel was already everywhere everywhere.)
The most easily recognizable hallmark indicator if something is iron or steel, even from a photo, can be found in the decorations. The decorations on objects made from steel can hold very fine curved lines, as opposed to larger, simpler, blocky decorations. The technical terms are curvilinear and rectilinear. (Autocorrect for the win!) Thats the easiest thing for even a “layperson” to spot it something was made from steel. Such embellishments were made possible specifically because of the shifts from cast bronze to cast iron to wrought iron to steel.
That series of steps was highly expedited thanks to The Roman Empire, and it’s conquest driven economy. Every advancement in metallurgy that occurred anywhere in the empire was implemented everywhere at the speed of roads. Roads that were the arteries and veins for the greatest military-industrial complex the world had ever known. The Roman Empire definitely had the capability to produce metal meeting all requirements to call it “steel.” By the Middle Ages, European smiths regularly adorned high ticket steel items by engraving it with fine, curving lines, such as high-end weapons and armor from Field to Plate. Smiths had to embellish their wares for customers who knew little to nothing of metallurgy and were expected to pay comparatively exorbitant amounts of money for arms and armor. That was for two main reasons.
Those customers were all testostetronic professional warlord subchiefs. (That’s what being a “landed noble” meant, you were an authorized subchief somewhere in a rigidly hierarchy from knights to dukes.) As a landed noble, you basically only two real responsibilities. One was boring administrative stuff to manage and promote the welfare of their lands and serfs. That also included the admin to levy both conscripts and taxes. And it had to be enough taxes to not only cover your own income, but also kick enough up the chain for the subchiefs you report to to get their slice and pass it on so the king could get his. The other responsibility was being a well trained, highly skilled, and exceedingly well equipped professional warrior. That meant either being a murdermachine, commanding murdermachines, or both. As professional testistitronic murdurmachines, obviously they were going to compete over ev-ver-ry-thing. Stuff like who’s
cararmor was the coolest. To “keep up with Sir Jones, the frivolous,” it behoved a noble to sport the fanciest look they could afford to not lose their ranking among the other subchiefs. That was one of the two main reasons arms and armor had to have varying tiers of fancy at different price points.But there was another major reason. Picture it: Europe, the Middle Ages, and you are one of your warlord’s (king’s) professional subchiefs. You are expected to fight for your recognized warlord whenever called upon, and to equip yourself accordingly. You are shopping for the very equipment you will be literally trusting with your life. This is the stuff that will hopefully keep you alive until you can finally stop being a murdurmachine and go back to peacefully being a department manager where (hopefully) nobody is trying yo kill you. And you know that the best equipment will have a slight patterning from the construction, and that a clear indicator if the job was done right is it can hold a nice, clear, crisp, fine, curved line etched into the surface (since steel holds an edge better than iron). Which one are you gonna buy? That’s right, you’re gonna buy the fanciest armor you can afford since you know that means it’s the top of the line in an arms race. (One that supposedly started when that guy konked his brother with an ass’s jawbone way back when more than 60,000 years ago, and never ended).
Edit: On a reread of your post I realized I had misunderstood your comment in this regard as it was a line about crucible steel in the middle of a paragraph about forge welded steel. But I figured, “I typed all of this 👇, ain’t gonna delete it now.
Wootz steel was absolutely not a result of pattern or forge welding. (Not at all.) The pucks of crucible steel that were exported were called “Wootz.” That telltale banding pattern unique to Wootz was the result of the early techniques for creating crucible steel. That crucible technique was actually the thing that made products made from it (like Damascus Swords) the bleeding edge in metallurgy (with periodic improvements) for around 2,000 years until that arc furnace I mentioned got invented.
That signature banding occurred because the crucibles couldn’t quite maintain sufficiently high temperatures for a long enough duration. That meant the liquified higher and lower carbon materials couldn’t quite thoroughly homogenize, which caused layers between them from the differential cooling. That means even crucible steel had areas of relatively lower and higher carbon content and some impurities within the steel. While it was most definitely a technological improvement over forge welding, or steel refined from wrought iron, it was also in at least that one regard not entirely dissimilar from other steel.
The main distinction is that there is little to no chance of delimitation caused by the impurities that might have lead to stress lines getting into the finished product. (That means you wouldn’t have to worry about a “Narsil” type of situation.)
Keep in mind,, the concept of crucible steel was not entirely unknown to European metallurgists, but the manufacturing process wasn’t actively pursued my European metallurgists before the pre-industrial era. It was likely deemed less than necessary and not cost effective before then. That’s because the iron ore they had access to was pretty pure in the first place compared to ore from Asia, including the Indian subcontinent where the crucible method was invented. That meant the smelted iron was also pretty pure, and the steel they could create from that iron didn’t require enough additional labor to make the crucible process that necessary an advancement. At least not for what they were making, and especially compared to metallurgy in Asia, Japan in particular. The reason Japanese Swordmakers developed the repeated folding process they used was because their iron was so riddled with slag they had to keep re-folding it to repeatedly expose new surface area in order to get more of the slag out. European smiths didn’t have that problem to solve, they just refined wrought iron into steel with a fraction of the effort.
European metallurgists started to get curious a bout the crucible process in, what, the mid-late 1,700s. Right? That’s because there were new demands created by emerging industries. They basically ignored it for over 1,500 years. Less than 100 years later British metallurgists had made two of the most significant advancements to the process ever devised: forcing air through the crucible, and the use of coke in place of charcoal or coal in the process.
I hope that helps.
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