How many parties stop to evaluate the moral stance of every goblin and orc they slay? I'm willing to wager that there's a little bit of racism in everyone when they come across any "enemy race". If one is predisposed to believe that all goblins are inherently bad, how are the fantasy humans any better for slaying without cause or prevocation? #showerthoughts #whostherealmonster
That’s exactly why I fell in love with the OD&D world of Mystara waaaayyyyyy back in the day. It was the first time I even encountered a world in which goblins, orcs, and hobgoblins were viable PC races. My version of that world has seen heavy changes over the past 25+ years. Most fans would be horrified at what all my friends and I added/changed back in high school (the inclusion of half-human races for instance). To this day, Goblins, Orcs, Hobgoblins, half-human versions of each of those as well as half-ogres, are and will always be PC races in any game I DM set in that world. When 2 PCs out of 6 are Hobgoblins, then goblin bandits are viewed as bandits who simply happen to be goblins. Another group of goblins met on the highway are seen as travelers who just so happen to be goblins. When Dwarven Bandits attack, they are viewed the same way the goblins were, maybe even more harshly if there are no dwarf/half-dwarf PCs. It’s subtle, but it makes a big difference in-game.
GoblinsComic (based on a previous version of D&D) pursued this avenue of thought - Goblin adventurers (and more along the way) trying to save their tribe from being fodder for standard-race adventurers, facing stereotyping, finding common ground, facing their own biases against others, forming friendships in unlikely places, finding hidden horrors among those they had considered friends...
In the story: A dim-witted, brash warrior was forced to work with a "monster" - a yuan-ti. He tried to find some common ground with her to try to stop seeing her as a "monster" and could find nothing, absolutely nothing that he could consider to be normal. He went off on his own to make preparations for something. She, thinking he was planning to kill her, went to confront him... only to find he was preparing a surprise birthday party just to create some common ground he could connect with. She never had one and thought it was the most wonderful thing anyone had ever done for her.
This is a fantasy story arc of bigotry. You cannot have victory over adversity if you're not allowed to face adversity. (EDIT: Not all of the story arcs have happy endings. For all we know at this point, they could all end up dead. Like a protagonist in a Whedon sitcom, nobody has plot armor in GoblinsComic.)
All that stated...
You also do not force people into situations that make them uncomfortable, taking away their enjoyment of the game. This does not mean they're somehow better for ridding moral adversity from their game and does not mean they're somehow lesser for not allowing it.
Wanna fight? Fight. Wanna spend 95% of the game in dialog with NPCs? Spend 95% of the game in dialog with NPCs. Wanna solve puzzles? Solve puzzles. Wanna tackle hard issues? Tackle hard issues. Wanna RAW? RAW. Wanna homebrew? Homebrew. Wanna play your way? Play your way.
Yet... There are two wrong ways to play: Hating the game you're playing or hating the game others are playing are the wrong ways to play.
To counterpoint the whole Ninja debacle: The right way to enjoy a game is to enjoy it the way you enjoy a game and not insist everyone else must enjoy it the same way or, else, consider them wrong for a different style of gaming.
Human. Male. Possibly. Don't be a divider. My characters' backgrounds are written like instruction manuals rather than stories. My opinion and preferences don't mean you're wrong. I am 99.7603% convinced that the digital dice are messing with me. I roll high when nobody's looking and low when anyone else can see.🎲 “It's a bit early to be thinking about an epitaph. No?” will be my epitaph.
Precisely. I would never insist that others include themes they are uncomfortable with in their games. I do insist that the OP not be vilified as a racist for choosing to include those themes in their game. #yourfunisnotwrong
So, I think we agree on this. It is not bad to have Racial Tension in your games if it is fun and good storytelling in your games. Don't shame people for their other points of view on this, but it can be taken to an extreme where it is no longer fun for anyone. I have only very rarely included racial tension in my games, and will continue to do so when it builds a good story in my games.
Thanks for the discussion everyone, if any more points need to be added, feel free to do so.
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I also wanted to point out that the way I got into D&D was by watching and reading Lord of the Rings, and my cousin telling me that D&D is Lord of the Rings, but you get to do it. It had never occurred to be that Goblins and Orcs could be anything but evil, and my view in the past 2 years has changed a ton on those creatures. When I have new players in my games, I just let them kill goblins and orcs and be the heroes that save the village. Older players are still allowed to do this, but it is more common to be drow or gnolls, or a different race that chooses to be evil and cultivates it. I like simple games, but sometimes in my games I feel the need to have racial tension, by having the half-drow shunned by High-Elves, or the Warforged not allowed into a bar. This to me expresses a level of maturity and realistic storytelling, and is in a way refreshing to see the character's personalities develop from these experiences.
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I personally think that it should be there, yet not all players may like it. So, you could have it but not just that much of it (no Riots, Break-ins etc.) Maybe say a tiefling enters a tavern and receives threatening glances from a human (maybe drunk?) who gets up and punches the tiefling (and maybe his companions).
Okay, this topic came up in a thread of mine a few days ago, and completely derailed it as I had very different opinions than the other participants, and I didn't get to express my point before we had to end the "debate" there.
So, basically, I said that it was beneficial to be a Human in most campaigns, as humans are the most common race in most settings, and you will likely have less racial discrimination as a human than a Yuan-Ti Pureblood or Half-Orc, or other more monstrous race (Hobgoblin, Orc, Githyanki).
Others started arguing that DMs shouldn't even have any themes of racial tension or discrimination in D&D, and compared those that have those themes to real world racists, and were implying that if you have those problems in your D&D games, you are racist.
I was arguing that the purpose of having races in D&D and racial tensions is to raise awareness for the real world problem. You can't solve a problem by ignoring it. By exposing more players to racial discrimination in a fantasy game, where the player isn't being oppressed or offended, the character is, this shows the player how racial discrimination is prevalent in the real world, and can help with the problem more.
What do you think? Should DMs have racial tension in their games? I'd love to hear your thoughts, and have this thread to direct these discussions towards.
I think it depends on the group. Personally, I think racial tensions add a bit of realism to a game. if your group isn't into that then just avoid it for the sake of fun. For me, it takes a bit away from the fun when I am playing a drow or a tiefling, and people just treat me like a welcome neighbor. That's just not how people work and it breaks my suspension of disbelief a bit.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Okay, this topic came up in a thread of mine a few days ago, and completely derailed it as I had very different opinions than the other participants, and I didn't get to express my point before we had to end the "debate" there.
So, basically, I said that it was beneficial to be a Human in most campaigns, as humans are the most common race in most settings, and you will likely have less racial discrimination as a human than a Yuan-Ti Pureblood or Half-Orc, or other more monstrous race (Hobgoblin, Orc, Githyanki).
Others started arguing that DMs shouldn't even have any themes of racial tension or discrimination in D&D, and compared those that have those themes to real world racists, and were implying that if you have those problems in your D&D games, you are racist.
I was arguing that the purpose of having races in D&D and racial tensions is to raise awareness for the real world problem. You can't solve a problem by ignoring it. By exposing more players to racial discrimination in a fantasy game, where the player isn't being oppressed or offended, the character is, this shows the player how racial discrimination is prevalent in the real world, and can help with the problem more.
What do you think? Should DMs have racial tension in their games? I'd love to hear your thoughts, and have this thread to direct these discussions towards.
I think it depends on the group. Personally, I think racial tensions add a bit of realism to a game. if your group isn't into that then just avoid it for the sake of fun. For me, it takes a bit away from the fun when I am playing a drow or a tiefling, and people just treat me like a welcome neighbor. That's just not how people work and it breaks my suspension of disbelief a bit.
Well, that depends purely on the setting. Again, it's fantasy. Literally anything is possible. :)
I personally think that people who make these kinds of complaints should be asked, "Did you read something about it on twitter?" for me if something like this comes from twitter it should be null and void considering the kinds of people that would make this complaint on there are more then likely people who don't even play the game or buy the product. Makes it seem more like they are just trying to get their 5 seconds of fame honestly. I have seen complains like this about some of the races in D&D, Honestly, it frustrates me. It seems like they didn't do their research or fact check themselves to make sure that what they are saying might be them jumping in with their personal conclusions that they haven't had time to stop and think about why they are making the complaint in the first place. That's just me.
I play D&D to play D&D. When I'm ready to go out and make the world better, I do so in other ways, completely separate from D&D. I love my family and cherish their time more than anything else in this world. I enjoy talking to them more than anyone else. However, I have groups of people that I'd rather talk to about certain things. In that group, there's things that I'd never talk to them about. When I game, I game. I go HAM. Don't distract me. Don't bog me down with anything else. Just let me play. I'll address life when I address life. If life keeps interrupting me, I might put the game on hold. Once I decide to put life on hold however, I game. And when I game, I game. I go HAM.
An exploration of a real life issue using a fantasy roleplaying game metaphor can be as serious as any other narrative medium. Homophobia and racism as illustrated by anti-mutant bigotry in the X-Men? Classism via farm animal politics in Animal Farm? Censorship and oppression using fictional dystopian societies in Fahrenheit 451?
The problem is when the fantastic metaphor being used doesn't work. X-Men is a classic example.
First of all, the overwhelming majority of X-Men characters who aren't evil are really good looking. They're also rich, living in a fancy mansion and attending a private school (yeah, I'm aware that the setting has changed a bit in recent years). And then there's the reason that they're hated and feared. It's not because of their skin tone, or their appearance, or their sexual orientation. It's because they have superpowers. That's not really a good metaphor for being a minority- transgender people do not get persecuted because they might accidentally shoot lasers from their eyes and blow up a Walmart and black people don't cause earthquakes or tornadoes.
Issues like racism and discrimination are delicate topics, and often people who actually experience it in real life do not appreciate clueless, ham-fisted attempts to include it in fiction. Sometimes the best way to handle things is to take a note from the original Star Trek and put Sulu, Uhura, and Chekhov (he was white, but he was also Russian in a show made during the height of the Cold War) on the bridge and never make an issue about their races.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
I think this whole thing is something each group has to address on its own; if someone's not comfortable with racial tension, avoid it, don't ask why. That said, I've seen some amazing PCs from traditionally "evil" races (tieflings, orcs, goblins) who have to fight stereotypes and discrimination. These awesome stories couldn't have been told without the element of racial tension in the story world.
I think this whole thing is something each group has to address on its own; if someone's not comfortable with racial tension, avoid it, don't ask why. That said, I've seen some amazing PCs from traditionally "evil" races (tieflings, orcs, goblins) who have to fight stereotypes and discrimination. These awesome stories couldn't have been told without the element of racial tension in the story world.
But have you noticed that it's pretty much never the "good" races that have to fight stereotypes and discrimination? That right there is quite telling.
I think this whole thing is something each group has to address on its own; if someone's not comfortable with racial tension, avoid it, don't ask why. That said, I've seen some amazing PCs from traditionally "evil" races (tieflings, orcs, goblins) who have to fight stereotypes and discrimination. These awesome stories couldn't have been told without the element of racial tension in the story world.
But have you noticed that it's pretty much never the "good" races that have to fight stereotypes and discrimination? That right there is quite telling.
That probably has more to do with the party consisting of, 90% of the time, the "good guys", the heroes of the story, than about the races the players chose.
I think this whole thing is something each group has to address on its own; if someone's not comfortable with racial tension, avoid it, don't ask why. That said, I've seen some amazing PCs from traditionally "evil" races (tieflings, orcs, goblins) who have to fight stereotypes and discrimination. These awesome stories couldn't have been told without the element of racial tension in the story world.
But have you noticed that it's pretty much never the "good" races that have to fight stereotypes and discrimination? That right there is quite telling.
That probably has more to do with the party consisting of, 90% of the time, the "good guys", the heroes of the story, than about the races the players chose.
I think this whole thing is something each group has to address on its own; if someone's not comfortable with racial tension, avoid it, don't ask why. That said, I've seen some amazing PCs from traditionally "evil" races (tieflings, orcs, goblins) who have to fight stereotypes and discrimination. These awesome stories couldn't have been told without the element of racial tension in the story world.
But have you noticed that it's pretty much never the "good" races that have to fight stereotypes and discrimination? That right there is quite telling.
It is telling. It shows that D&D races shouldn't be the way that they are now.
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Keep the realworld out of my fantasy. It's called fantasy for a reason. I don't want to lecture someone (as DM) or get lectured (as Player) about how realworld topics should be handled by having them thinly cloaked in my GAME.
Goblins in the default fantasy setting are neutral EVIL. So, when you meet the default goblin, they should be RP'd as neutral EVIL. Can I throw in a non-default goblin who has a different alignment as a DM? Of course! That's fun. Just like I can have them encounter a Lawful Evil Mountain Dwarf bandit lord even though the default for dwarves has been Lawful Good. You can do all of that without lecturing or being forced to compare fantasy race X to realworld race Y since it's a FANTASY and a GAME.
Keep the realworld out of my fantasy. It's called fantasy for a reason. I don't want to lecture someone (as DM) or get lectured (as Player) about how realworld topics should be handled by having them thinly cloaked in my GAME.
Except that the problem is the real-world analogies being used in the game. The real world is already in there.
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That’s exactly why I fell in love with the OD&D world of Mystara waaaayyyyyy back in the day. It was the first time I even encountered a world in which goblins, orcs, and hobgoblins were viable PC races. My version of that world has seen heavy changes over the past 25+ years. Most fans would be horrified at what all my friends and I added/changed back in high school (the inclusion of half-human races for instance). To this day, Goblins, Orcs, Hobgoblins, half-human versions of each of those as well as half-ogres, are and will always be PC races in any game I DM set in that world. When 2 PCs out of 6 are Hobgoblins, then goblin bandits are viewed as bandits who simply happen to be goblins. Another group of goblins met on the highway are seen as travelers who just so happen to be goblins. When Dwarven Bandits attack, they are viewed the same way the goblins were, maybe even more harshly if there are no dwarf/half-dwarf PCs. It’s subtle, but it makes a big difference in-game.
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GoblinsComic (based on a previous version of D&D) pursued this avenue of thought - Goblin adventurers (and more along the way) trying to save their tribe from being fodder for standard-race adventurers, facing stereotyping, finding common ground, facing their own biases against others, forming friendships in unlikely places, finding hidden horrors among those they had considered friends...
In the story: A dim-witted, brash warrior was forced to work with a "monster" - a yuan-ti. He tried to find some common ground with her to try to stop seeing her as a "monster" and could find nothing, absolutely nothing that he could consider to be normal. He went off on his own to make preparations for something. She, thinking he was planning to kill her, went to confront him... only to find he was preparing a surprise birthday party just to create some common ground he could connect with. She never had one and thought it was the most wonderful thing anyone had ever done for her.
This is a fantasy story arc of bigotry. You cannot have victory over adversity if you're not allowed to face adversity. (EDIT: Not all of the story arcs have happy endings. For all we know at this point, they could all end up dead. Like a protagonist in a Whedon sitcom, nobody has plot armor in GoblinsComic.)
All that stated...
You also do not force people into situations that make them uncomfortable, taking away their enjoyment of the game. This does not mean they're somehow better for ridding moral adversity from their game and does not mean they're somehow lesser for not allowing it.
Wanna fight? Fight. Wanna spend 95% of the game in dialog with NPCs? Spend 95% of the game in dialog with NPCs. Wanna solve puzzles? Solve puzzles. Wanna tackle hard issues? Tackle hard issues. Wanna RAW? RAW. Wanna homebrew? Homebrew. Wanna play your way? Play your way.
Yet... There are two wrong ways to play: Hating the game you're playing or hating the game others are playing are the wrong ways to play.
To counterpoint the whole Ninja debacle: The right way to enjoy a game is to enjoy it the way you enjoy a game and not insist everyone else must enjoy it the same way or, else, consider them wrong for a different style of gaming.
Human. Male. Possibly. Don't be a divider.
My characters' backgrounds are written like instruction manuals rather than stories. My opinion and preferences don't mean you're wrong.
I am 99.7603% convinced that the digital dice are messing with me. I roll high when nobody's looking and low when anyone else can see.🎲
“It's a bit early to be thinking about an epitaph. No?” will be my epitaph.
Precisely. I would never insist that others include themes they are uncomfortable with in their games. I do insist that the OP not be vilified as a racist for choosing to include those themes in their game. #yourfunisnotwrong
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So, I think we agree on this. It is not bad to have Racial Tension in your games if it is fun and good storytelling in your games. Don't shame people for their other points of view on this, but it can be taken to an extreme where it is no longer fun for anyone. I have only very rarely included racial tension in my games, and will continue to do so when it builds a good story in my games.
Thanks for the discussion everyone, if any more points need to be added, feel free to do so.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
I also wanted to point out that the way I got into D&D was by watching and reading Lord of the Rings, and my cousin telling me that D&D is Lord of the Rings, but you get to do it. It had never occurred to be that Goblins and Orcs could be anything but evil, and my view in the past 2 years has changed a ton on those creatures. When I have new players in my games, I just let them kill goblins and orcs and be the heroes that save the village. Older players are still allowed to do this, but it is more common to be drow or gnolls, or a different race that chooses to be evil and cultivates it. I like simple games, but sometimes in my games I feel the need to have racial tension, by having the half-drow shunned by High-Elves, or the Warforged not allowed into a bar. This to me expresses a level of maturity and realistic storytelling, and is in a way refreshing to see the character's personalities develop from these experiences.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
I personally think that it should be there, yet not all players may like it. So, you could have it but not just that much of it (no Riots, Break-ins etc.) Maybe say a tiefling enters a tavern and receives threatening glances from a human (maybe drunk?) who gets up and punches the tiefling (and maybe his companions).
So thats what I think on the topic.
Pomastat, god of fungi, bees and acting | CG/NG/ | Domains: Trickery, Nature
I think it depends on the group. Personally, I think racial tensions add a bit of realism to a game. if your group isn't into that then just avoid it for the sake of fun. For me, it takes a bit away from the fun when I am playing a drow or a tiefling, and people just treat me like a welcome neighbor. That's just not how people work and it breaks my suspension of disbelief a bit.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
Well, that depends purely on the setting. Again, it's fantasy. Literally anything is possible. :)
It’s interesting in the “most creative bard idea” forum they are currently talking about discrimination against goblins.
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I personally think that people who make these kinds of complaints should be asked, "Did you read something about it on twitter?" for me if something like this comes from twitter it should be null and void considering the kinds of people that would make this complaint on there are more then likely people who don't even play the game or buy the product. Makes it seem more like they are just trying to get their 5 seconds of fame honestly. I have seen complains like this about some of the races in D&D, Honestly, it frustrates me. It seems like they didn't do their research or fact check themselves to make sure that what they are saying might be them jumping in with their personal conclusions that they haven't had time to stop and think about why they are making the complaint in the first place. That's just me.
I play D&D to play D&D. When I'm ready to go out and make the world better, I do so in other ways, completely separate from D&D. I love my family and cherish their time more than anything else in this world. I enjoy talking to them more than anyone else. However, I have groups of people that I'd rather talk to about certain things. In that group, there's things that I'd never talk to them about. When I game, I game. I go HAM. Don't distract me. Don't bog me down with anything else. Just let me play. I'll address life when I address life. If life keeps interrupting me, I might put the game on hold. Once I decide to put life on hold however, I game. And when I game, I game. I go HAM.
you get it.
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The problem is when the fantastic metaphor being used doesn't work. X-Men is a classic example.
First of all, the overwhelming majority of X-Men characters who aren't evil are really good looking. They're also rich, living in a fancy mansion and attending a private school (yeah, I'm aware that the setting has changed a bit in recent years). And then there's the reason that they're hated and feared. It's not because of their skin tone, or their appearance, or their sexual orientation. It's because they have superpowers. That's not really a good metaphor for being a minority- transgender people do not get persecuted because they might accidentally shoot lasers from their eyes and blow up a Walmart and black people don't cause earthquakes or tornadoes.
Issues like racism and discrimination are delicate topics, and often people who actually experience it in real life do not appreciate clueless, ham-fisted attempts to include it in fiction. Sometimes the best way to handle things is to take a note from the original Star Trek and put Sulu, Uhura, and Chekhov (he was white, but he was also Russian in a show made during the height of the Cold War) on the bridge and never make an issue about their races.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
I think this whole thing is something each group has to address on its own; if someone's not comfortable with racial tension, avoid it, don't ask why. That said, I've seen some amazing PCs from traditionally "evil" races (tieflings, orcs, goblins) who have to fight stereotypes and discrimination. These awesome stories couldn't have been told without the element of racial tension in the story world.
Wizard (Gandalf) of the Tolkien Club
I agree. Definitely, if your players aren't comfortable with it, avoid it. That's just human decency.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
But have you noticed that it's pretty much never the "good" races that have to fight stereotypes and discrimination? That right there is quite telling.
That probably has more to do with the party consisting of, 90% of the time, the "good guys", the heroes of the story, than about the races the players chose.
The same point still stands. ;)
It is telling. It shows that D&D races shouldn't be the way that they are now.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
Keep the realworld out of my fantasy. It's called fantasy for a reason. I don't want to lecture someone (as DM) or get lectured (as Player) about how realworld topics should be handled by having them thinly cloaked in my GAME.
Goblins in the default fantasy setting are neutral EVIL. So, when you meet the default goblin, they should be RP'd as neutral EVIL. Can I throw in a non-default goblin who has a different alignment as a DM? Of course! That's fun. Just like I can have them encounter a Lawful Evil Mountain Dwarf bandit lord even though the default for dwarves has been Lawful Good. You can do all of that without lecturing or being forced to compare fantasy race X to realworld race Y since it's a FANTASY and a GAME.
Except that the problem is the real-world analogies being used in the game. The real world is already in there.