I have joined a game of DND for the first time in over 20 years, so still getting my head wrapped around 5E.
I picked a Rogue for the general utility and RP.
The party I am teamed up with has two Melee Characters who use Reach Weapons, so unless I want to end up Tanking for the Group I need to have either Range, Reach or Mobility.
I know that Ranged is a solid option, but I want to get up in it and move around the combat.
I really like the idea of a dual whip a purely from a flavour perspective it rocks, but, is that all it does. I can put together a decent rogue build for either a Ranged or Mobile Rapier wielding Rogue.
I am struggling to do the same with a Whip Build, is that simply because it is all form and no substance?
Yeah, Whip isn't that well suited for it. Since it's not light, you can't by RAW dual-wield them. Rogues don't come with proficiency at them. So you've got a few bits to overcome to make it as effective as using a weapon you're proficient in.
One option is to take daggers. They're so versatile you can do anything with them - you can dual-wield and thus get two ranged attacks. Their normal range is only 20 ft so you'll still be in the thick of it, and could easily switch to melee daggers anytime. (Rogue really doesn't care much about the damage die - sure, a dagger is a D4, but you just need to get the sneak attack damage every turn, who cares if your damage is 1d4+3+2d6 or 1d6+3+2d6...)
Once you get to third level you can go Swashbuckler - Fancy Footwork lets you run in, attack, and run out, then Rakish Audacity makes it so you'll get sneak attack without your allies next to your target. Then you can use your mobility to use whatever weapon you feel like.
You will have plenty of mobility by level 2. You can move in, use your action to attack, and then use your bonus action to disengage and use your remaining movement to retreat. The ability to dart in and out of melee is baked into the class.
If you're picturing your front line allies valiantly holding the monsters at bay 10 feet away from them, it's not going to happen. Once you engage in 5e, you can move freely as long as you don't leave the reach of the enemy. It's very easy to close ranks with reach users, and even circle around behind them. So it won't be as big a deal as you think to not have reach.
Whips have really been done dirty in 5e IMO. They should have the light property at the least since they're only d4, and yes very little of a rogue's damage comes from their weapon but at the same time rogues don't really need reach at all when they have a minor action disengage. As written they are just not worth it unless they're a part of your character thematically. Daggers can do everything whips can do and more.
Its possible to do it... but heres what you need !
- Human variant race - pick the feat dual wielder (removes the light necessity, only requires one handed weapons which whip are) - Class: fighter (Gets you fighting style to add modifier to your whip attack, as well as all the proficiencies) Done you are now a dual wielding whip user with reach !
mobility... - pick rogue as the second class, level 2 you get tons of mobility by using bonus actions to move. beware though, second attack also uses bonus action. - pick swashbuckler at level 3, even more mobility as you cna now move without provoking attacks of opportunity from opponents you have attacked. hit or no hit.
there you go.
EDIT: i find it horrible that none of you even tryed to fix his problem, most of you just told him, its impossible forget it. at least try to find a solution, because there was tons of solution to make the character he wants. It is not our job to tell him how to play "HIS" character.
there is a few way to achieve what he wants. but it all includes waiting in levels for feats or playing a human from the get go. so its up to him. the solution i presented above is one way to do it. gets you tons of benefits too.
DM of two gaming groups. Likes to create stuff. Check out my homebrew --> Monsters --> Magical Items --> Races --> Subclasses If you like --> Upvote, If you wanna comment --> Comment
Play by Post Games --> One Shot Adventure - House of Artwood (DM) (Completed)
Bugbear Barb/Rogue + Whip (15 foot range now because bugbear) + Sentinel + Fighting Initiate (Two-Weapon Fighting) + Crossbow Expert + Hand Crossbow.
That whip will be dominating the battlefield with a 15 foot reach, sneak attack on your round (reckless attack if necessary) and likely more sneak attack on another round when someone attacks an ally and you use Sentinel to hit back. And then popping off a shot with the hand crossbow just to add salt to the wound.
I have joined a game of DND for the first time in over 20 years, so still getting my head wrapped around 5E.
I picked a Rogue for the general utility and RP.
The party I am teamed up with has two Melee Characters who use Reach Weapons, so unless I want to end up Tanking for the Group I need to have either Range, Reach or Mobility.
I know that Ranged is a solid option, but I want to get up in it and move around the combat.
I really like the idea of a dual whip a purely from a flavour perspective it rocks, but, is that all it does. I can put together a decent rogue build for either a Ranged or Mobile Rapier wielding Rogue.
I am struggling to do the same with a Whip Build, is that simply because it is all form and no substance?
Thanks
The amount of gatekeeping you just got fed is infuriating. I thini it's time to actually answer your question and not be a dick.DnDPaladin suggested Variant Human. This works and is completely valid, but is only one option. I'd like to be able to provide you with an additional choice to give you some creative liverty.
So, here's what I would do to accomplish this idea:
I'd begin as either a Goblin, Aasimar, Harengon, or Halfling. Goblin & Aasimar let you get some bonus damage on top of your Sneak Attack, which is flat damage that will help offset potential bad dice rolls. Nothing hurts more as a Rogue then getting a juicy Sneak Attack (particularly a crit) and getting nothing but 1s and 2s on the dice. Harengon gives you that Initiative boost, this is good for getting the jump on opponents and getting into control range (this will be important later). Halfling adds a layer of consistency by giving you a 1s reroll on your d20.
Start the character at Level 1 with either Fighter, Paladin, or Ranger. This will get you armor, shield, and martial weapon prof. which you will need to get Whips online. Armor & shield isn't too necessary, you'll be maxing DEX & dual-wieding, so those are only for flavor options and versatility. Note that some Medium Armor doesn't impose DEX disadvantage, so you can sport a Breastplate and still stealth at full efficiency.
From here, you have two paths. The first is to take the class to 4 to get your subclass, an ASI, and potentially some spells. Nabbing Bless, Heroism, Hunter's Mark, Jump, or Longstrider will help elevate your utility by giving you support options, while also freeing up some party budget by allowing the other Cleric or Paladin to sport spells outside that list. The second is to multiclass straight to Rogue and take it the rest of the way. The second option will delay your 1st ASI, preventing Dual Wielding for a level, but will start you immediately down the Rogue levels that you'll want to take for your build.
When you look at subclasses, you have a few to consider. Swashbuckler is amazing for both skill junkies and battlefield mobility thanks to Rakish AUdacity incentivizing a CHA focus. However, may I ask you to consider Scout or Arcane Trickster? Scout gives you even more skill use, making you a veritable toolkit. It also gives you extra mobility in case someone wants to keep you from being a skirmisher. Arcane Trickster, however, doubles down on the spellcasting, which you can use to great effect by picking up utility spells like Find Familiar or Silent Image. As for your non-rogue subs, Fighter lets you nab Battle Master, giving you flexibility with your flexible whips; Samurai, which allows for greater consistency with Sneak Attack; or Cavalier, which lets you do more crowd control. Paladin lets you nab Oath of Redemption or Oath of the Watchers, both of which have potent Channel Divinities, or Oath of Vengeance which also helps with consistency like how Samurai works. Ranger has Gloom Stalker, Drakewarden, Fey Wanderer, or Horizon Walker - each of which provide valuable assets for the Rogue.
Now, here's where I said Harengon is important: Harengon plus Swashbuckler plus Gloom Stalker = two steps short of the famous "I Am Speed" combo which can net you an insane Initiative modifier. DEX + WIS + CHA + Prof. usually comes to at least +12 to +14, +19 with Alert. You usually go first with that setup, unless your dice are just god-awful.
When we look at Feats, you have one you absolutely need for viability (which is why I said one option is to take your starting class to 4), and the other nets you a sinister control build that lets you double your Sneak Attack. The absolutely mandatory one is Dual WIelder. You're gonna need this to dual-wield whips since they aren't Light weapons. The highly recommended one is Sentinel. With a 10-15ft reach on your whips (someone mentioned Bugbear which is a great combo here as well), your effective threat range is massive, about as big as the Spirit Guardians AoE. That's HUGE for manipulating the battlefield, and coupled with Bless or Silent Image it becomes nasty.
Its possible to do it... but heres what you need !
- Human variant race - pick the feat dual wielder (removes the light necessity, only requires one handed weapons which whip are) - Class: fighter (Gets you fighting style to add modifier to your whip attack, as well as all the proficiencies) Done you are now a dual wielding whip user with reach !
mobility... - pick rogue as the second class, level 2 you get tons of mobility by using bonus actions to move. beware though, second attack also uses bonus action. - pick swashbuckler at level 3, even more mobility as you cna now move without provoking attacks of opportunity from opponents you have attacked. hit or no hit.
there you go.
EDIT: i find it horrible that none of you even tryed to fix his problem, most of you just told him, its impossible forget it. at least try to find a solution, because there was tons of solution to make the character he wants. It is not our job to tell him how to play "HIS" character.
there is a few way to achieve what he wants. but it all includes waiting in levels for feats or playing a human from the get go. so its up to him. the solution i presented above is one way to do it. gets you tons of benefits too.
You're getting an updoot for not being an *******. Thanks for that.
This would use a single whip rather than two. But if you go with the Arcane Trickster sub-class, you can get access to the Booming Blade Cantrip at level 3 along with Find Familiar (and invisible mage hand, which is pretty great.) The familiar can let you get extra sneak attack damage by standing near an enemy so you don't have to worry about advantage, which could be useful if the other party members are planning to not flank, keeping their distance with their own reach weapons. Rogues don't get extra attack, so using the Booming Blade cantrip for your action won't have that potential drawback. Though I think it's that you can only use Booming Blade to attack within 5' (not the 10' range from reach, even with Spell Sniper). And you could use your bonus action to disengage, constantly giving enemies cause to move and trigger more booming blade damage if they want to get back into melee range.
So you could stay with the group, making normal attacks with reach and hopefully sneak attack damage, or darting in and out to use Booming Blade. If an enemy moves adjacent to you, make a Booming Blade attack on them, disengage, and move out of their range.
At lvl 13, you also get another way to guarantee sneak attack damage - Versatile Trickster can get you advantage on attack rolls on a target.
If you want to add to this, Hex is a great spell, but accessing it could be a little tricky. The Magic Initiate feat is an option, choosing Warlock, but that only lets you cast Hex 1x per long rest and those spells will be based on CHA. I guess there's always a 1-to-3 level dip into Warlock but I'll ignore that option to stick with all rogue levels. If you take the Hexblood lineage, you get Disguise Self and Hex for free, get the free cast per long rest, AND can use your spell slots from being an Arcane Trickster to cast Hex.
You could be attacking with a whip for 1d4 slashing (whip) + 1D6 necrotic (Hex) + 1d8 thunder (Booming Blade) + 2D6 Sneak Attack at level 3 pretty regularly with a Hexblood Arcane Trickster Rogue.
Just to add to this, the Hexblood's Eerie token ability and disguise self spell is right on theme for a thief - telepathic message can make for a great lookout, remote viewing combined with sleight of hand can make for a spying or scouting option - just need to get a hair in their salad or on their cowl or dropped off by your familiar in the place you need to scope. And your subclass can get you access to spells to aid your rogue-ish ways - you can lean into the rouge-enhancing elements of these character options.
I have joined a game of DND for the first time in over 20 years, so still getting my head wrapped around 5E.
I picked a Rogue for the general utility and RP.
The party I am teamed up with has two Melee Characters who use Reach Weapons, so unless I want to end up Tanking for the Group I need to have either Range, Reach or Mobility.
I know that Ranged is a solid option, but I want to get up in it and move around the combat.
I really like the idea of a dual whip a purely from a flavour perspective it rocks, but, is that all it does. I can put together a decent rogue build for either a Ranged or Mobile Rapier wielding Rogue.
I am struggling to do the same with a Whip Build, is that simply because it is all form and no substance?
Thanks
Yeah, Whip isn't that well suited for it. Since it's not light, you can't by RAW dual-wield them. Rogues don't come with proficiency at them. So you've got a few bits to overcome to make it as effective as using a weapon you're proficient in.
One option is to take daggers. They're so versatile you can do anything with them - you can dual-wield and thus get two ranged attacks. Their normal range is only 20 ft so you'll still be in the thick of it, and could easily switch to melee daggers anytime. (Rogue really doesn't care much about the damage die - sure, a dagger is a D4, but you just need to get the sneak attack damage every turn, who cares if your damage is 1d4+3+2d6 or 1d6+3+2d6...)
Once you get to third level you can go Swashbuckler - Fancy Footwork lets you run in, attack, and run out, then Rakish Audacity makes it so you'll get sneak attack without your allies next to your target. Then you can use your mobility to use whatever weapon you feel like.
Couple things:
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
Its possible to do it... but heres what you need !
- Human variant race
- pick the feat dual wielder (removes the light necessity, only requires one handed weapons which whip are)
- Class: fighter (Gets you fighting style to add modifier to your whip attack, as well as all the proficiencies)
Done you are now a dual wielding whip user with reach !
mobility...
- pick rogue as the second class, level 2 you get tons of mobility by using bonus actions to move. beware though, second attack also uses bonus action.
- pick swashbuckler at level 3, even more mobility as you cna now move without provoking attacks of opportunity from opponents you have attacked. hit or no hit.
there you go.
EDIT: i find it horrible that none of you even tryed to fix his problem, most of you just told him, its impossible forget it.
at least try to find a solution, because there was tons of solution to make the character he wants.
It is not our job to tell him how to play "HIS" character.
there is a few way to achieve what he wants. but it all includes waiting in levels for feats or playing a human from the get go.
so its up to him. the solution i presented above is one way to do it. gets you tons of benefits too.
DM of two gaming groups.
Likes to create stuff.
Check out my homebrew --> Monsters --> Magical Items --> Races --> Subclasses
If you like --> Upvote, If you wanna comment --> Comment
Play by Post Games
--> One Shot Adventure - House of Artwood (DM) (Completed)
Bugbear Barb/Rogue + Whip (15 foot range now because bugbear) + Sentinel + Fighting Initiate (Two-Weapon Fighting) + Crossbow Expert + Hand Crossbow.
That whip will be dominating the battlefield with a 15 foot reach, sneak attack on your round (reckless attack if necessary) and likely more sneak attack on another round when someone attacks an ally and you use Sentinel to hit back. And then popping off a shot with the hand crossbow just to add salt to the wound.
The amount of gatekeeping you just got fed is infuriating. I thini it's time to actually answer your question and not be a dick. DnDPaladin suggested Variant Human. This works and is completely valid, but is only one option. I'd like to be able to provide you with an additional choice to give you some creative liverty.
So, here's what I would do to accomplish this idea:
You're getting an updoot for not being an *******. Thanks for that.
This would use a single whip rather than two. But if you go with the Arcane Trickster sub-class, you can get access to the Booming Blade Cantrip at level 3 along with Find Familiar (and invisible mage hand, which is pretty great.) The familiar can let you get extra sneak attack damage by standing near an enemy so you don't have to worry about advantage, which could be useful if the other party members are planning to not flank, keeping their distance with their own reach weapons. Rogues don't get extra attack, so using the Booming Blade cantrip for your action won't have that potential drawback. Though I think it's that you can only use Booming Blade to attack within 5' (not the 10' range from reach, even with Spell Sniper). And you could use your bonus action to disengage, constantly giving enemies cause to move and trigger more booming blade damage if they want to get back into melee range.
So you could stay with the group, making normal attacks with reach and hopefully sneak attack damage, or darting in and out to use Booming Blade. If an enemy moves adjacent to you, make a Booming Blade attack on them, disengage, and move out of their range.
At lvl 13, you also get another way to guarantee sneak attack damage - Versatile Trickster can get you advantage on attack rolls on a target.
If you want to add to this, Hex is a great spell, but accessing it could be a little tricky. The Magic Initiate feat is an option, choosing Warlock, but that only lets you cast Hex 1x per long rest and those spells will be based on CHA. I guess there's always a 1-to-3 level dip into Warlock but I'll ignore that option to stick with all rogue levels. If you take the Hexblood lineage, you get Disguise Self and Hex for free, get the free cast per long rest, AND can use your spell slots from being an Arcane Trickster to cast Hex.
You could be attacking with a whip for 1d4 slashing (whip) + 1D6 necrotic (Hex) + 1d8 thunder (Booming Blade) + 2D6 Sneak Attack at level 3 pretty regularly with a Hexblood Arcane Trickster Rogue.
Just to add to this, the Hexblood's Eerie token ability and disguise self spell is right on theme for a thief - telepathic message can make for a great lookout, remote viewing combined with sleight of hand can make for a spying or scouting option - just need to get a hair in their salad or on their cowl or dropped off by your familiar in the place you need to scope. And your subclass can get you access to spells to aid your rogue-ish ways - you can lean into the rouge-enhancing elements of these character options.