My brother plays in a men's hockey league, every game they collect money to pay the ref.
If I ran the idea that the ref should do it "for free" and the "love of the game" or that ref taking money will bring greed to the world amateur men's hockey, my brother would think I'm weirder than he already thinks I am.
I know at least one GM who works at a local gaming store for $20 an hour a couple of nights a week, he clears about $160 a week.
As a computer contractor, I make that much an hour.
He puts at least an hour of prep for every hour of game time, effectively making about $10 an hour. No one is doing this for "greed".
Its a valit point Davedamon, i only startet the topic to get opinions on that mater i just fear how far it can be commercialized and stop beiing what it is now. Its just a concern.
That's a valid concern, but I think the reason why people find paid DM'ing odd is also the reason that paid DM'ing will very likely not be a problem for the hobby; no one will ever be 'forced' to pay for a DM if they don't want to, because they can do it themselves.
D&D is already very commercialised; we've got cottage dice industries and bespoke furniture companies. 3D printed miniature services and terrain manufacturers. People publishing hundreds of adventures, rules content and options. You can spend a lot of money D&D, or you can spend none; the basic rules are free and there are tonnes of free adventures and content out there for people to use. DM'ing is no different; you can do it/find it for free, or you can find someone to pay you/to pay for DM'ing.
As a DM, I like the idea of other DMs being able to make some money off the role. It's a lot of hard work and I feel that there are lots of talented DMs that deserve to be compensated for their time. Also, if it means groups who can't find a DM can get to play, everyone wins.
Paid DM'ing is a nice piece of extra change in your pocket, it is not easy by any stretch of the imagination. It is fun on one hand but if your running alot of games it can get a bit tricky due to the amount of stuff you put out in the game. So you really gotta be organized, if you are not an organized individual then paid DM'ing will not work for you. I run four games, with each one I have a folder for each game day. During the game, I write down alot of notes, what the players did, what they fought and more. Then you gotta distill those notes into an AAR not only for your players but for yourself so you remember what happened during the session. You also have to take care of your voice due to the amount of different voices you will use with NPC's during the game. Still all in all, it really is not a bad gig and if you have a vibrant personality and a good commanding voice (thank gawd for NCO school lol) then you might be able to do the paid DM services.
So long as it's not illegal and doesn't hurt other human beings, I support (and encourage) anyone that is grinding and "chasin' the hustle". I don't know every paid DMs financial situation - so if you can get it, get it!
Some people draw because they enjoy it. That is the only benefit (and a worthy one). Others draw because they have a deadline and they get paid for it. They also enjoy it, but not as much before. Others don't really enjoy it that much but they get paid for it. They get paid A LOT, which affords them opportunity to do other enjoyable things. They've put in the time and effort to build a skillset that they should "get that money" when they can - because they can. They can draw for pure joy, but given a set period of time - if life pulls you in the direction of drawing for 12 hours for 3,000 dollars or drawing for 12 hours for fun, right now - I'm going to spend my day on the project that gives me the $$.
I get you on the hobby vs. $$ thing. I get you on the passion vs. $$ thing. I get you on the "it's a game. It's fun" vs. "it's work" thing. That's why you have game designers, video game creators, board game designers, RPG writers, fiction authors, etc. I don't expect any of them to do it for free. 1 it takes too much time and 2 you're providing a service that others cannot do themselves or are willing to pay for. That's how it should be.
My legendary bundle costs $$. The books on my shelf cost $$. The Dwarven Forge I'd like to have cost $$. As does the fancy dice, the Wyrmwood dice trays, miniatures, high end paints and brushes..that $$ has to come from somewhere.
Something id like to say I am still undecided on all of this cause we have arguments from both sides and that was my goal from the beginning getting input on why it is there or isn't. Thanks for all the replies so far. And i can understand big parts of it now.
It is supply and demand, in your local area you might have plenty of people to DM. On a nationwide level, not so. Too many players and not enough good DM's. Believe me, you aint gonna get rich doing paid DM gigs but it is enough to buy some weed and beer or help pay off a car.
This is not some kind of new phenomenon that threatens to change D&D. It has always been a thing and always will be as long as DMing takes more work than being a player.
I would never think of charging my own group. They are my friends, and we rotate DMing anyway. But DMing for a group of strangers would be a whole different thing. I don't have time for a second group, but if I did you'd still probably have to pay me to motivate me enough to do the work for people I don't know.
If you're really against paying for it, you can always give it a shot yourself. If you have other friends who want to play, take turns doing one-shots with one of you DMing. As you build your skills, you can stretch those turns out to longer adventures. Maybe one of you will like it enough to DM all the time. If you all hate it, might be time to reevaluate whether it's worth paying for, or if you just would rather play something else.
Im doing it as a hobby so i dont charge, ive met some awesome people scatered around the globe by playing the game. Yes there is the time issue if you can afford the time though and like meeting new people im not sure if its the same thing as when you offer it to them for free. I just think Players have a special kind of bond with the DM and paying for it is just not the right feeling. It feels for me like my everyday job, not like something i do couse out of enjoiment.
I guess depending on your worldview, your goals, your debts you may be tempted at some point to do paid DM'ing. I just don't want to be in that position.
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-Barbarian don't break doors! The monsters hear us! Here you turn slowly and you push!
The issue with paid DMing is that it changes DMing from 'hobby you do for fun with your friends' to 'job' -- and a pretty cruddy one. If you spend 4 hours prepping for a 4 hour session and you have 4 players, $20 per player per session is $10 per hour. How many players are going to pay $20 per session for an only lightly prepared game?
There are several viewpoints to the question: The player view, and from the DM view. Also, two unique situations: people that play with friends, and people that don't. I don't think that any DM that started and continues to play with friends would ever charge. Similarly, I can't see any player that started and continues to play would think their DM would charge, nor would that player offer to charge. But beyond that, it gets tricky. The viewpoint of "I would never pay to play D&D!!!!!" Is fine to have, but what do you do if no one is offering their time as DM for free? Yell at them for charging because they should devote hours and hours more than the players "Because it's a game/ For the purity of the game/etc?" If you're a DM, you have a little leeway, because the second you stop having fun, you can just cancel the game. Players not what you expected, return on time invested not to your liking, etc, means you just stop. How many people here have joined random groups, become invested, then the game just fizzles? It happens a lot, usually because the DM is doing it as a hobby, and has no incentive to keep going when it hits even the smallest bump in the road.
I have no preference one way or the other, but the good "professional" DMs out there, whether online, at a hobby shop, at a convention, or wherever will generally have a sort of contract that they give before you start. A general commitment to taking the adventure through ___ level, or finishing ___ quest, etc. They won't randomly stop playing because they're bored/life issues/etc. Also, they'll have testimonials from previous players. That part is important... I've played in plenty of games over the years with DMs that seemed ok, but were terrible. I wouldn't pay them a dime. But I've also had DMs that I would gladly play $20 per 4 hour session. That's 2 movies worth of entertainment for the cost of two movies...an already accepted entertainment to cost ratio. (There are variations on the cost, but that tends to be the average)
As a hobby DM with a well paying job, I've been thinking of charging my players a token amount just so they take my time seriously.
I only have a bill paying job but I agree entirely with the sentiment about players taking the DM's effort seriously.
I have several face to face games (currently being done online ofc thank you covid..) which often require me to be a teacher trying to bring unruly children to order, and several online games that have stalled and crashed and burned due to players sketchy attendance with all sorts of "the dog ate my homework" type excuses for ghosting me, or other cretinous behaviors so common with online communities.
I begin to feel that any new campaigns I begin will involve a nominal but non-trivial tribute to keep my players honest and serious about the game.
As a hobby DM with a well paying job, I've been thinking of charging my players a token amount just so they take my time seriously.
I only have a bill paying job but I agree entirely with the sentiment about players taking the DM's effort seriously.
I have several face to face games (currently being done online ofc thank you covid..) which often require me to be a teacher trying to bring unruly children to order, and several online games that have stalled and crashed and burned due to players sketchy attendance with all sorts of "the dog ate my homework" type excuses for ghosting me, or other cretinous behaviors so common with online communities.
I begin to feel that any new campaigns I begin will involve a nominal but non-trivial tribute to keep my players honest and serious about the game.
The first thing i expect and say to my players is to take it seriusly or it will evolve to a fast end. Thats why i mostly play with people i trust they will do it. But sure if you put it like this investing money in something can push the situation. But if money is the reason they feel obliget to accept your effort then it isnt the right playerbase for you since they dont respect it for what it is.
Yeah it's easy to say "take it seriously" but that doesn't mean that real life friends will simply fall into line and stay there, nor does it mean strangers online with whom you are just starting out with will likewise get into line and stay there.
Nor is it a simple thing to hold the campaign to ransom to good behavior or else you will sabotage your own hard work in a fit of pique.
" But if money is the reason they feel obliget to accept your effort then it isnt the right playerbase for you since they dont respect it for what it is."
This line is really kind of naive and snobbish to turn your nose up at the basis of all customer service agreements, a paying player isn't "obliged" to behave, it is an investment by the player and a commitment over and above merely wasting some time and maybe making a Grung just to get to make Murlok noises all game and generally be an arse,
And don't ignore the reciprocity of the agreement , the DM is expected to provide a higher quality experience and it is in the players own interest to make the most of the service they are paying for.
Just like when you buy a TV or a Car or whatever item or service, you expect quality and the provider expects the consumer to use the product or service in the proper manner and if the standard is not met then there is recourse, I can totally see why so many DM's are now running a paid service.
I am still running my games "free" but as I said in my original reply to this thread there have been many occasions when players ghost, troll or are outright aggressive and insulting to other players without preamble. Like a lot of other DM's I see the validity of paying the DM to be a measure to help reduce the likely hood of these kinds of BS events.
As someone who is often stuck in the permanent DM role, I can see why some people would turn to a paid DM, because no one will run for me, I kind of have little other option.
I have been seeking a new group for a while now, and it is super hard to find anyone that is willing to take on new players. But paid DMs are always looking for new players, because most people don't want to pay for it, so there is ample supply. But if I am going to pay for a DM, I want to play specific modules, I am not too keen to play in someone's homebrew world that I know nothing about. If I pay for it, I want to play the game I want to play, not play the game the DM chooses to run. But I understand that this is difficult from an operational stand point too so the business model needs work.
I also tried being a paid DM, it is not as easy to get a game going as you would think it is. Most people ask if they have to pay, and as soon as you tell them they do, they ghost you.
I also just tried to get people to chip in enough to buy modules, even that is a non starter for most people. In my experience people don't want to contribute to the game until they become invested in the game. But as a DM, that does not inspire me to run a module I have to pay for, in the hopes that my players decide they feel like I am doing a good enough job to reimburse me a few dollars.
An unfortunate truth about this game, not everyone understands how much effort their DM puts into the game to run it. Even a DM that is "not very good" could spend hours getting ready for a game, only for the players not to fully respect the time they actually put in. All they see is the time at the table. That is part of the reason I don't respect players that only play characters. It tells me that you probably don't have a full appreciation for the amount of work the DM actually puts in. It is also the reason I am trying to pressure my IRL friends to run at least once, so that they know how much effort it really is.
I don't have a problem with getting paid to DM for other people and I don't have a problem with anyone else getting paid either. You have to consider your skills as a DM, though. The reason I don't charge to DM is that I do not believe I am capable of providing the highly polished and professional level of play that players would expect from a paid game.
Honestly though, if someone like Matt Mercer, Satine Phoenix or others decided to charge to DM, I would pay to be able to play in their games. Why? Because they are excellent, highly professional DMs whose time is precious.
I don't think your average Friday night DM should charge though. However, it doesn't bother me if they do, and if I were really excited about the kind of game they were running, then I would still pay. That said; where you charge or not, you should not expect to make a living or get rich from being a dungeon master, and if that is how someone sees the game, then I don't think its the right space for them.
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A caffeinated nerd who has played TTRPGs or a number of years and is very much a fantasy adventure geek.
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My brother plays in a men's hockey league, every game they collect money to pay the ref.
If I ran the idea that the ref should do it "for free" and the "love of the game" or that ref taking money will bring greed to the world amateur men's hockey, my brother would think I'm weirder than he already thinks I am.
I know at least one GM who works at a local gaming store for $20 an hour a couple of nights a week, he clears about $160 a week.
As a computer contractor, I make that much an hour.
He puts at least an hour of prep for every hour of game time, effectively making about $10 an hour. No one is doing this for "greed".
That's a valid concern, but I think the reason why people find paid DM'ing odd is also the reason that paid DM'ing will very likely not be a problem for the hobby; no one will ever be 'forced' to pay for a DM if they don't want to, because they can do it themselves.
D&D is already very commercialised; we've got cottage dice industries and bespoke furniture companies. 3D printed miniature services and terrain manufacturers. People publishing hundreds of adventures, rules content and options. You can spend a lot of money D&D, or you can spend none; the basic rules are free and there are tonnes of free adventures and content out there for people to use. DM'ing is no different; you can do it/find it for free, or you can find someone to pay you/to pay for DM'ing.
As a DM, I like the idea of other DMs being able to make some money off the role. It's a lot of hard work and I feel that there are lots of talented DMs that deserve to be compensated for their time. Also, if it means groups who can't find a DM can get to play, everyone wins.
Find my D&D Beyond articles here
Paid DM'ing is a nice piece of extra change in your pocket, it is not easy by any stretch of the imagination. It is fun on one hand but if your running alot of games it can get a bit tricky due to the amount of stuff you put out in the game. So you really gotta be organized, if you are not an organized individual then paid DM'ing will not work for you. I run four games, with each one I have a folder for each game day. During the game, I write down alot of notes, what the players did, what they fought and more. Then you gotta distill those notes into an AAR not only for your players but for yourself so you remember what happened during the session. You also have to take care of your voice due to the amount of different voices you will use with NPC's during the game. Still all in all, it really is not a bad gig and if you have a vibrant personality and a good commanding voice (thank gawd for NCO school lol) then you might be able to do the paid DM services.
Why pay for a concert when you can have the radio for free? Why pay for a fancy restaurant when you can cook at home?
Would i help my local DM/friend by giving him a book or Minis for his birthday, pay for his pint or pay the pizza? Yes.
Would i pay a stranger 100 bugs a month to play online? No.
Would i pay two grant to go and play DnD in an exotic location for a long weekend? Yes but only as a treat if i can afford it.
Attack: [roll]3d20dl2+6[/roll] Damage: [roll](if([roll:-1:critical], =0, 1d8, 2{1d8}.expand()))+4[/roll] Sneakattack: [roll](if([roll:-2:critical], =0, 2d6, 2{2d6}.expand()))[/roll]So long as it's not illegal and doesn't hurt other human beings, I support (and encourage) anyone that is grinding and "chasin' the hustle". I don't know every paid DMs financial situation - so if you can get it, get it!
Some people draw because they enjoy it. That is the only benefit (and a worthy one). Others draw because they have a deadline and they get paid for it. They also enjoy it, but not as much before. Others don't really enjoy it that much but they get paid for it. They get paid A LOT, which affords them opportunity to do other enjoyable things. They've put in the time and effort to build a skillset that they should "get that money" when they can - because they can. They can draw for pure joy, but given a set period of time - if life pulls you in the direction of drawing for 12 hours for 3,000 dollars or drawing for 12 hours for fun, right now - I'm going to spend my day on the project that gives me the $$.
I get you on the hobby vs. $$ thing. I get you on the passion vs. $$ thing. I get you on the "it's a game. It's fun" vs. "it's work" thing. That's why you have game designers, video game creators, board game designers, RPG writers, fiction authors, etc. I don't expect any of them to do it for free. 1 it takes too much time and 2 you're providing a service that others cannot do themselves or are willing to pay for. That's how it should be.
My legendary bundle costs $$. The books on my shelf cost $$. The Dwarven Forge I'd like to have cost $$. As does the fancy dice, the Wyrmwood dice trays, miniatures, high end paints and brushes..that $$ has to come from somewhere.
All things Lich - DM tips, tricks, and other creative shenanigans
Something id like to say I am still undecided on all of this cause we have arguments from both sides and that was my goal from the beginning getting input on why it is there or isn't. Thanks for all the replies so far. And i can understand big parts of it now.
It is supply and demand, in your local area you might have plenty of people to DM. On a nationwide level, not so. Too many players and not enough good DM's. Believe me, you aint gonna get rich doing paid DM gigs but it is enough to buy some weed and beer or help pay off a car.
Sadly its the opposite. We have a real problem finding DMs in Germany. The only way to do it by pure luck.
This is not some kind of new phenomenon that threatens to change D&D. It has always been a thing and always will be as long as DMing takes more work than being a player.
I would never think of charging my own group. They are my friends, and we rotate DMing anyway. But DMing for a group of strangers would be a whole different thing. I don't have time for a second group, but if I did you'd still probably have to pay me to motivate me enough to do the work for people I don't know.
If you're really against paying for it, you can always give it a shot yourself. If you have other friends who want to play, take turns doing one-shots with one of you DMing. As you build your skills, you can stretch those turns out to longer adventures. Maybe one of you will like it enough to DM all the time. If you all hate it, might be time to reevaluate whether it's worth paying for, or if you just would rather play something else.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
Im doing it as a hobby so i dont charge, ive met some awesome people scatered around the globe by playing the game. Yes there is the time issue if you can afford the time though and like meeting new people im not sure if its the same thing as when you offer it to them for free. I just think Players have a special kind of bond with the DM and paying for it is just not the right feeling. It feels for me like my everyday job, not like something i do couse out of enjoiment.
I guess depending on your worldview, your goals, your debts you may be tempted at some point to do paid DM'ing. I just don't want to be in that position.
-Barbarian don't break doors! The monsters hear us! Here you turn slowly and you push!
-You speak in riddles wizard.
The issue with paid DMing is that it changes DMing from 'hobby you do for fun with your friends' to 'job' -- and a pretty cruddy one. If you spend 4 hours prepping for a 4 hour session and you have 4 players, $20 per player per session is $10 per hour. How many players are going to pay $20 per session for an only lightly prepared game?
There are several viewpoints to the question: The player view, and from the DM view. Also, two unique situations: people that play with friends, and people that don't. I don't think that any DM that started and continues to play with friends would ever charge. Similarly, I can't see any player that started and continues to play would think their DM would charge, nor would that player offer to charge. But beyond that, it gets tricky. The viewpoint of "I would never pay to play D&D!!!!!" Is fine to have, but what do you do if no one is offering their time as DM for free? Yell at them for charging because they should devote hours and hours more than the players "Because it's a game/ For the purity of the game/etc?" If you're a DM, you have a little leeway, because the second you stop having fun, you can just cancel the game. Players not what you expected, return on time invested not to your liking, etc, means you just stop. How many people here have joined random groups, become invested, then the game just fizzles? It happens a lot, usually because the DM is doing it as a hobby, and has no incentive to keep going when it hits even the smallest bump in the road.
I have no preference one way or the other, but the good "professional" DMs out there, whether online, at a hobby shop, at a convention, or wherever will generally have a sort of contract that they give before you start. A general commitment to taking the adventure through ___ level, or finishing ___ quest, etc. They won't randomly stop playing because they're bored/life issues/etc. Also, they'll have testimonials from previous players. That part is important... I've played in plenty of games over the years with DMs that seemed ok, but were terrible. I wouldn't pay them a dime. But I've also had DMs that I would gladly play $20 per 4 hour session. That's 2 movies worth of entertainment for the cost of two movies...an already accepted entertainment to cost ratio. (There are variations on the cost, but that tends to be the average)
As a hobby DM with a well paying job, I've been thinking of charging my players a token amount just so they take my time seriously.
I only have a bill paying job but I agree entirely with the sentiment about players taking the DM's effort seriously.
I have several face to face games (currently being done online ofc thank you covid..) which often require me to be a teacher trying to bring unruly children to order, and several online games that have stalled and crashed and burned due to players sketchy attendance with all sorts of "the dog ate my homework" type excuses for ghosting me, or other cretinous behaviors so common with online communities.
I begin to feel that any new campaigns I begin will involve a nominal but non-trivial tribute to keep my players honest and serious about the game.
The first thing i expect and say to my players is to take it seriusly or it will evolve to a fast end. Thats why i mostly play with people i trust they will do it. But sure if you put it like this investing money in something can push the situation. But if money is the reason they feel obliget to accept your effort then it isnt the right playerbase for you since they dont respect it for what it is.
@Sydaront
Yeah it's easy to say "take it seriously" but that doesn't mean that real life friends will simply fall into line and stay there, nor does it mean strangers online with whom you are just starting out with will likewise get into line and stay there.
Nor is it a simple thing to hold the campaign to ransom to good behavior or else you will sabotage your own hard work in a fit of pique.
" But if money is the reason they feel obliget to accept your effort then it isnt the right playerbase for you since they dont respect it for what it is."
This line is really kind of naive and snobbish to turn your nose up at the basis of all customer service agreements, a paying player isn't "obliged" to behave, it is an investment by the player and a commitment over and above merely wasting some time and maybe making a Grung just to get to make Murlok noises all game and generally be an arse,
And don't ignore the reciprocity of the agreement , the DM is expected to provide a higher quality experience and it is in the players own interest to make the most of the service they are paying for.
Just like when you buy a TV or a Car or whatever item or service, you expect quality and the provider expects the consumer to use the product or service in the proper manner and if the standard is not met then there is recourse, I can totally see why so many DM's are now running a paid service.
I am still running my games "free" but as I said in my original reply to this thread there have been many occasions when players ghost, troll or are outright aggressive and insulting to other players without preamble. Like a lot of other DM's I see the validity of paying the DM to be a measure to help reduce the likely hood of these kinds of BS events.
If they don't take it seriously already, it's not likely they'll be willing to pay enough to get them to take it seriously, they'll just stop playing.
As someone who is often stuck in the permanent DM role, I can see why some people would turn to a paid DM, because no one will run for me, I kind of have little other option.
I have been seeking a new group for a while now, and it is super hard to find anyone that is willing to take on new players. But paid DMs are always looking for new players, because most people don't want to pay for it, so there is ample supply. But if I am going to pay for a DM, I want to play specific modules, I am not too keen to play in someone's homebrew world that I know nothing about. If I pay for it, I want to play the game I want to play, not play the game the DM chooses to run. But I understand that this is difficult from an operational stand point too so the business model needs work.
I also tried being a paid DM, it is not as easy to get a game going as you would think it is. Most people ask if they have to pay, and as soon as you tell them they do, they ghost you.
I also just tried to get people to chip in enough to buy modules, even that is a non starter for most people. In my experience people don't want to contribute to the game until they become invested in the game. But as a DM, that does not inspire me to run a module I have to pay for, in the hopes that my players decide they feel like I am doing a good enough job to reimburse me a few dollars.
An unfortunate truth about this game, not everyone understands how much effort their DM puts into the game to run it. Even a DM that is "not very good" could spend hours getting ready for a game, only for the players not to fully respect the time they actually put in. All they see is the time at the table. That is part of the reason I don't respect players that only play characters. It tells me that you probably don't have a full appreciation for the amount of work the DM actually puts in. It is also the reason I am trying to pressure my IRL friends to run at least once, so that they know how much effort it really is.
I don't have a problem with getting paid to DM for other people and I don't have a problem with anyone else getting paid either. You have to consider your skills as a DM, though. The reason I don't charge to DM is that I do not believe I am capable of providing the highly polished and professional level of play that players would expect from a paid game.
Honestly though, if someone like Matt Mercer, Satine Phoenix or others decided to charge to DM, I would pay to be able to play in their games. Why? Because they are excellent, highly professional DMs whose time is precious.
I don't think your average Friday night DM should charge though. However, it doesn't bother me if they do, and if I were really excited about the kind of game they were running, then I would still pay. That said; where you charge or not, you should not expect to make a living or get rich from being a dungeon master, and if that is how someone sees the game, then I don't think its the right space for them.
A caffeinated nerd who has played TTRPGs or a number of years and is very much a fantasy adventure geek.