The tendency to simply label and dismiss others is as bad as it has ever been... even if the labels may have changed.
It actually seems worse now than I can ever remember.
Because people pay more attention to such issues now than they did twenty or thirty years ago. People are paying more attention to diversity, and more attention to the concerns of people who are something other than cis straight white men.
Perhaps, but I think it is also because of so many people self-labeling these days. When one calls themselves “other” it makes it easier for others to do it.
That's an easy thing to say when you're someone whom society doesn't try to relentlessly force you into a label that doesn't fit you and then punish for failing to conform.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
That's an easy thing to say when you're someone whom society doesn't try to relentlessly force you into a label that doesn't fit you and then punish for failing to conform.
You say to the bisexual man who is rejected by the straight comunity for being too gay and rejected by the LGBT comunity for not being gay enough.
Maybe, but I am inclined to agree with EricHVela and say we should be looking more at what we have in common as human beings rather than on the trivial things that make us different. We are all human beings with hopes, dreams, sorrows, joys, triumphs, losses, bellybuttons... the whole 9 yards. I don’t care what color God chooses to paint someone on the outside. I don’t care who someone chooses to love. I don’t care about which faith someone holds if any. I don’t care how much money someone has. None of that should matter. We are all people, we all deserve the same respect regardless of anything else. The fact that we even need to fix things at all is depressing. As people, we will always have more in common than not. I look forward to a day I will most likely never live to see where we stand together as the Human “race” and the rest of our differences can be celebrated, without having to be considered. When things like race/ethnicity only matter for medical reasons and we can all go to sleep at night without worrying about being hated for no good reason whatsoever.
I may be a minority in this case, but i'll say how i see it and how i do it.
When you're at a table, you are here to play, we don't need to know your personal life or anything about you, unless you are willing to share.
My only concerns at the table, when we play is that if you know the rules or not( if you don't know then either myself or someone else will help you with it), if you can stay for the whole session or only part of it, and what you do during the game.
I've been doing it like this for years, be it D&D, PF or Wh40k, going to events, tournaments etc, i care about the person during the game and in the context of the game, if the guy/gal wants to befriend, i'm okay with it and we can do it, if they don't and want to just play, its ok.
Heck i've been meeting people and playing with them nearly on a weekly basis for a decade, never knew anything about them beside their name and where they lived, never had an issue with it, we would socialise and talk about the game and of anything that is tied to the game or of geekdom in general, then each of us would go back to their lives.
Best person i had the pleasure to play with in my life, and i don't even know his sexual orientation or even his last Name, and to quote Park & Recs " we sometimes don't speak to each other still", never had an issue or drama.
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"Normality is but an Illusion, Whats normal to the Spider, is only madness for the Fly"
Best person i had the pleasure to play with in my life, and i don't even know his sexual orientation or even his last Name, and to quote Park & Recs " we sometimes don't speak to each other still", never had an issue or drama.
You know that quote from Ron Swanson was meant to be absurd, right? The fact that they think that they have a great relationship when they literally don't communicate.
You can definitely play games and enjoy each other's company without really knowing each other, but normally knowing people is a good way to make friends.
My point is, it doesn't matter who they are at the table, but they're not really a friend if you don't have a relationship.
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Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
I've had it with straight white people crusading in my name.
I am not your pet project. Don't try to be my champion just to make yourself feel better.
From my side, it feels like people are telling me that I'm weak and need their pity.
If you want to help, start by closing your mouths and sitting back from your keyboards and listen to us. Don't talk about us like we're helpless. We obviously CAN speak for ourselves and be heard. Don't drown our voices with yours because you want to participate. If you do, it'll end up with the same result of people not hearing us, but it'll be your fault.
Think about that before you start replying with "how it must feel" for us. We can tell when such speech is not for our benefit.
Thanks for bringing this up and sharing your perspective!
WOTC is making these changes because people came forward and said that it does affect them. In some cases here, those people have been pretty aggressively dismissed. For example, claims that they are outside instigators, and not members of the D&D community. That isn't true. And those people aren't here to defend themselves, though we've also seen a couple of people say similar things here in this thread.
There's a disconnect there, and it looks like a dearth of empathy. "This does not affect me, therefore it is not a problem." Sometimes people who can't see a problem need to look at it from a different perspective.
But at the same time, you're making a very strong point. If I'm understanding you correctly, it sounds like you're saying that attempts to encourage empathy in others--however well-intentioned--can come across to you as harmful or reductive or condescending. That's definitely a problem. I've talked a lot here, much of it with the goal of encouraging empathy, so if I've done that at any point, I apologize.
ArwensDaughter has already observed that we need to be careful not to do that in a way that implies a monolithic perspective. Implying that all people with a certain characteristic feel a certain way about this issue is not really very different than saying all orcs are inherently evil. I'll go back and re-read my posts with that in mind and edit as needed.
Do you have any other suggestions for ways we can better validate and support the people who have raised these concerns, and encourage people who don't see the validity of those concerns to try looking from a different perspective, without coming across as speaking for them or over them instead of in support of them? (Or you.)
Thanks!
So with that out of the way, let's hear your thoughts without assumptions about living our lives. K?
These changes give players and DMs more options, which is something I value. Separately, people are asking for these changes to make them more welcome and comfortable in the game, which is also something I value. From my perspective, either one would be a strong enough argument for the changes. Both together seem pretty compelling.
(Of all the issues, the depiction of the Vistani in Curse of Strahd is extreme enough to make me feel cringe without even requiring empathy. As much as I adore Chris Perkins, and as skilled as he is at adventure writing, ignorance made it into print there, and that is not OK.)
@PatrickDees: I told you, you have no idea how big this snowball is going to get.
@ArwensDaughter & Atrome: Thank you both for your support. Again, I'm luckier than others, but it's still shitty. And Atrome, I'm sorry that my experience is relatable to yours; even if I am lucky, no one should still have to go through it.
@IamSposta: I am so sorry that you have received that response from a community I identify with so closely. It's dissapointing, aggravating, and you deserve better than that.
@EricHVela: I am so sorry that you receive that bigotry from your own family. That is abominable, and you also deserve better than that.
@PatrickDees: I told you, you have no idea how big this snowball is going to get.
@ArwensDaughter & Atrome: Thank you both for your support. Again, I'm luckier than others, but it's still shitty. And Atrome, I'm sorry that my experience is relatable to yours; even if I am lucky, no one should still have to go through it.
@IamSposta: I am so sorry that you have received that response from a community I identify with so closely. It's dissapointing, aggravating, and you deserve better than that.
@EricHVela: I am so sorry that you receive that bigotry from your own family. That is abominable, and you also deserve better than that.
Let's just hope it doesn't go overboard and tear the who D&D community apart. I'd hate that. :(
Trust me. This won't destroy D&D in anyway, and will make it better. I know there are a few people leaving from this change, but from my perspective, they're all racist bigots, their exit posts said that much about them.
There's a benefit to this that helps everyone. You now will probably be able to play a good gnome-paladin or any other weird character niche you want.
I am happy for the people in the groups that are benefitting on this based on perception in the books. I'm a white, straight male, and haven't been discriminated against based on skin color or sexuality before, but I do have autism. It really sucks to have your parent tell you that autism doesn't exist, and there's no reason that I should have to get therapy because some people are just "quirky".
Diversity in the game is important, and the base rules should be as inclusive as possible.
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Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
All I can say is everyone here is welcome at my game table anytime unless your a racist pig, but I'm not running a game online as that is really not my bag.
I don't get the outrage of D&D deciding to alter a social oriented game that's played for fun to be better for all participants.
Somebody posted some article about how rolelaying gamers do better socially, but that has no real relation to any biases D&D may be imprinting or negative stereotypes it perpetuates if the study didn't account for that specific variable. I mean there's certainly no shortage of racist or sexist roleplayers, something that should be obvious to anyone who's played games at conventions or random groups they've met. Just look up any number of threads of "bad experiences at tables" and you'll find plenty of women complaining about sexism they encounter.
There's some incredibly dark and problematic lore buried in D&D's history. I mean the Moon Elves of Mystera literally have their own version of infamous Fourteen Words.
Wizards deciding to make better depictions of cultures I just can't fathom seeing as a bad thing.
And it's not fair to say "outsiders" can't be critical of D&D. Everything IN society influences other aspects of society, so it's culpable to the "court of public opinion". And like, I may not be a member of a racist organization and what they do, but I can certainly be critical of the *** and what they do, because again, all things IN culture influences other culture.
It's like the saying goes "it's not enough to be not racist, people must be anti-racist". Also look into the "Paradox of Tolerance" for reading about this kind of topic.
Frankly, the fact that race boils down to an optimization exercise, rather than 'what type of character do I want to play', does not make D&D a better game.
Frankly, the fact that race boils down to an optimization exercise, rather than 'what type of character do I want to play', does not make D&D a better game.
I agree 100%.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Perhaps, but I think it is also because of so many people self-labeling these days. When one calls themselves “other” it makes it easier for others to do it.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
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That's an easy thing to say when you're someone whom society doesn't try to relentlessly force you into a label that doesn't fit you and then punish for failing to conform.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
You say to the bisexual man who is rejected by the straight comunity for being too gay and rejected by the LGBT comunity for not being gay enough.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
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Maybe, but I am inclined to agree with EricHVela and say we should be looking more at what we have in common as human beings rather than on the trivial things that make us different. We are all human beings with hopes, dreams, sorrows, joys, triumphs, losses, bellybuttons... the whole 9 yards. I don’t care what color God chooses to paint someone on the outside. I don’t care who someone chooses to love. I don’t care about which faith someone holds if any. I don’t care how much money someone has. None of that should matter. We are all people, we all deserve the same respect regardless of anything else. The fact that we even need to fix things at all is depressing. As people, we will always have more in common than not. I look forward to a day I will most likely never live to see where we stand together as the Human “race” and the rest of our differences can be celebrated, without having to be considered. When things like race/ethnicity only matter for medical reasons and we can all go to sleep at night without worrying about being hated for no good reason whatsoever.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
I may be a minority in this case, but i'll say how i see it and how i do it.
When you're at a table, you are here to play, we don't need to know your personal life or anything about you, unless you are willing to share.
My only concerns at the table, when we play is that if you know the rules or not( if you don't know then either myself or someone else will help you with it), if you can stay for the whole session or only part of it, and what you do during the game.
I've been doing it like this for years, be it D&D, PF or Wh40k, going to events, tournaments etc, i care about the person during the game and in the context of the game, if the guy/gal wants to befriend, i'm okay with it and we can do it, if they don't and want to just play, its ok.
Heck i've been meeting people and playing with them nearly on a weekly basis for a decade, never knew anything about them beside their name and where they lived, never had an issue with it, we would socialise and talk about the game and of anything that is tied to the game or of geekdom in general, then each of us would go back to their lives.
Best person i had the pleasure to play with in my life, and i don't even know his sexual orientation or even his last Name, and to quote Park & Recs " we sometimes don't speak to each other still", never had an issue or drama.
"Normality is but an Illusion, Whats normal to the Spider, is only madness for the Fly"
Kain de Frostberg- Dark Knight - (Vengeance Pal3/ Hexblade 9), Port Mourn
Kain de Draakberg-Dark Knight lvl8-Avergreen(DitA)
You know that quote from Ron Swanson was meant to be absurd, right? The fact that they think that they have a great relationship when they literally don't communicate.
You can definitely play games and enjoy each other's company without really knowing each other, but normally knowing people is a good way to make friends.
My point is, it doesn't matter who they are at the table, but they're not really a friend if you don't have a relationship.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
Thanks for bringing this up and sharing your perspective!
WOTC is making these changes because people came forward and said that it does affect them. In some cases here, those people have been pretty aggressively dismissed. For example, claims that they are outside instigators, and not members of the D&D community. That isn't true. And those people aren't here to defend themselves, though we've also seen a couple of people say similar things here in this thread.
There's a disconnect there, and it looks like a dearth of empathy. "This does not affect me, therefore it is not a problem." Sometimes people who can't see a problem need to look at it from a different perspective.
But at the same time, you're making a very strong point. If I'm understanding you correctly, it sounds like you're saying that attempts to encourage empathy in others--however well-intentioned--can come across to you as harmful or reductive or condescending. That's definitely a problem. I've talked a lot here, much of it with the goal of encouraging empathy, so if I've done that at any point, I apologize.
ArwensDaughter has already observed that we need to be careful not to do that in a way that implies a monolithic perspective. Implying that all people with a certain characteristic feel a certain way about this issue is not really very different than saying all orcs are inherently evil. I'll go back and re-read my posts with that in mind and edit as needed.
Do you have any other suggestions for ways we can better validate and support the people who have raised these concerns, and encourage people who don't see the validity of those concerns to try looking from a different perspective, without coming across as speaking for them or over them instead of in support of them? (Or you.)
Thanks!
These changes give players and DMs more options, which is something I value. Separately, people are asking for these changes to make them more welcome and comfortable in the game, which is also something I value. From my perspective, either one would be a strong enough argument for the changes. Both together seem pretty compelling.
(Of all the issues, the depiction of the Vistani in Curse of Strahd is extreme enough to make me feel cringe without even requiring empathy. As much as I adore Chris Perkins, and as skilled as he is at adventure writing, ignorance made it into print there, and that is not OK.)
How's that?
@PatrickDees: I told you, you have no idea how big this snowball is going to get.
@ArwensDaughter & Atrome: Thank you both for your support. Again, I'm luckier than others, but it's still shitty. And Atrome, I'm sorry that my experience is relatable to yours; even if I am lucky, no one should still have to go through it.
@IamSposta: I am so sorry that you have received that response from a community I identify with so closely. It's dissapointing, aggravating, and you deserve better than that.
@EricHVela: I am so sorry that you receive that bigotry from your own family. That is abominable, and you also deserve better than that.
Everyone deserves better.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
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We really do. It's such a ******* disappointment.
Let's just hope it doesn't go overboard and tear the who D&D community apart. I'd hate that. :(
I dunno, the way you keep bringing it up.... Nobody here is fighting. But you keep asking about it like you want it.
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Sorry. Sorry. A bit hard to read the room sometime. I'll do my best not to come off that way.
Trust me. This won't destroy D&D in anyway, and will make it better. I know there are a few people leaving from this change, but from my perspective, they're all racist bigots, their exit posts said that much about them.
There's a benefit to this that helps everyone. You now will probably be able to play a good gnome-paladin or any other weird character niche you want.
I am happy for the people in the groups that are benefitting on this based on perception in the books. I'm a white, straight male, and haven't been discriminated against based on skin color or sexuality before, but I do have autism. It really sucks to have your parent tell you that autism doesn't exist, and there's no reason that I should have to get therapy because some people are just "quirky".
Diversity in the game is important, and the base rules should be as inclusive as possible.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
Dude. That blows.
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Yeah, that ******* sucks. It's hard enough when you have support like I did, but when you don't...I can't even imagine what that's like.
All I can say is everyone here is welcome at my game table anytime unless your a racist pig, but I'm not running a game online as that is really not my bag.
I don't get the outrage of D&D deciding to alter a social oriented game that's played for fun to be better for all participants.
Somebody posted some article about how rolelaying gamers do better socially, but that has no real relation to any biases D&D may be imprinting or negative stereotypes it perpetuates if the study didn't account for that specific variable. I mean there's certainly no shortage of racist or sexist roleplayers, something that should be obvious to anyone who's played games at conventions or random groups they've met. Just look up any number of threads of "bad experiences at tables" and you'll find plenty of women complaining about sexism they encounter.
There's some incredibly dark and problematic lore buried in D&D's history. I mean the Moon Elves of Mystera literally have their own version of infamous Fourteen Words.
Wizards deciding to make better depictions of cultures I just can't fathom seeing as a bad thing.
And it's not fair to say "outsiders" can't be critical of D&D. Everything IN society influences other aspects of society, so it's culpable to the "court of public opinion". And like, I may not be a member of a racist organization and what they do, but I can certainly be critical of the *** and what they do, because again, all things IN culture influences other culture.
It's like the saying goes "it's not enough to be not racist, people must be anti-racist". Also look into the "Paradox of Tolerance" for reading about this kind of topic.
Frankly, the fact that race boils down to an optimization exercise, rather than 'what type of character do I want to play', does not make D&D a better game.
I agree 100%.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms