The very first game of D&D I played in, was 1E AD&D. It was back in 1980 pr 1981, I was nine or ten years old.
The GM - an adult, not just a young kid like we players were - had a magic item shop we could go to. (Twist: none of the items were identified, so, caveat emptor in a big way). That was forty years ago, and four entire editions of D&D. At the time, the only books were the DMG, PHB, MM, later that year, the Fiend Folio. Oh, and the Folio edition of the World of Greyhawk (the Boxed Set wasn't published until 1983). That's it. That's everything.
Nor was he uncommon for having done that; I can't think of a single early GM who didn't have one..
Which means, Magic Item Shops have been a part of D&D, for longer than 99% of what everyone accepts is D&D.
In my current game, our DM has allowed us to buy just about any scroll for the typical GP cost, which I think is 1st level 100gp, 2nd level 300gp, 3rd level 600gp, 4th level 1000gp, and so on. Other than buying scrolls, nothing. If you want something you have to tell the DM and he will decide if he is going to let you get it and he puts it in a treasure somewhere when he wants to give it to you. He may decide he doesn't want you to have it. I have asked him how much an item should cost, if I can find it. He would tell me some big number of gold. I start saving my pennies; then an encounter or two later, Well lookie here. That's how I got my Elven chain armor.
When I was playing AD&D, some DMs didn't want to run low level campaigns, so we started about level ten or so. They let us have powerful magic items. If I had played long enough, I would have come to realize that wasn't much fun to steamroll all the monsters. But the other half of the DMs I played with back then would not dream of having a magic item shop. That's why you went on adventures.
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Literally EVERY game I played in the 1980s, there was a magic item shop somewhere in town. It was a typical thing for GMs to do, at the time. A bit over half the time, it was a place to buy a scroll or two, or pick up a few potions - and, perhaps, sell (or trade!) magic items you had obtained while adventuring, but did not want or need. (e.g., when you've had a +1 sword for a while, but just found a +2 weapon .... what do you do with the +1 weapon? Surely, not casually discard it ...!)
Also ... Dragon #163 (November, 1990), the article Hedge Wizards" by Greg Sharp, which opens with:
"Hedge wizard" is a term that's come up in my campaign to describe the proprietors of small "magic shops" in villages and cities in AD&D campaigns.
... which clearly suggests that some sort of "magic shop" was common enough by then, not to even elicit any especial comment on it's mere existence.
It does make sense to have magic item shops, though.
At least if magic items exist in the world, someone has to craft them. And that someone will probably want to sell them. Even if you have a setting where all of these things were mysteriously created in the old age and nobody today knows how to do this (XGtE and its crafting rules object), they would be like rare antiquities. The PCs are not the only people who explore old places and find useless stuff they want to sell off. And if there are enough people selling, there will be traders buying and reselling at higher prices, just like it works with antiques in our world.
Finally, the PCs usually earn quite a lot of money. If they can't buy anything useful, why even bother giving them that money in the first place?
In a lot of systems gear and equipment is just as important for characters as class skills or feats. D&D 5 is imho significantly lacking in this, it doesn't even provide guidelines on how much an item should be worth. Or, well, it does, but they're kind of useless ("Something between 1000 and 5000 GP.").
D&D 5 is imho significantly lacking in this, it doesn't even provide guidelines on how much an item should be worth. Or, well, it does, but they're kind of useless ("Something between 1000 and 5000 GP.").
Yup.
This is... I can't even come up with a proper adjective for it, as words like sloppy, negligent, slipshod, remiss, etc., don't do it justice. How could they possibly expect a new DM to figure out whether an item in the "1,000 to 5,000 gp" category belongs on the lower or upper end of the spectrum? They give utterly zero guidance for this.
There are a couple of resources made by 3rd parties ("Discerning Merchant" on DMG and "Sane Prices" which you can find on reddit or via Google), and those do help a lot, but why on earth did people have to homebrew lists of magic item costs?
This is not something that should have been just hand-waved and left literally 100% up to the DM. Yes, the DM can adjust prices as he sees fit. But a new or inexperienced DM, heck even experienced ones who haven't played 5e before, will not have the same sense of how things fit in the overall game balance that the designers do (at least to the extent that they have any ability to balance things, which I sometimes wonder about). The designers should have provided us with some guidelines... at a minimum some kind of formula, but preferably, since the tables of items are already there, just by putting in one more column with "suggested value" or something.
I for one... might allow a magic item to be sold to the party for the prices suggested in the Sane or Discerning List. But merchants will not buy for full price (because they have to sell). And they generally won't buy big-ticket items because they'll never be able to sell them. Again unless we are talking about a guy selling magic weapons down the block from the Flavian Amphitheater in Rome, where he knows he will find buyers among all the gladiators or something.
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WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
D&D 5 is imho significantly lacking in this, it doesn't even provide guidelines on how much an item should be worth. Or, well, it does, but they're kind of useless ("Something between 1000 and 5000 GP.").
Yup.
This is... I can't even come up with a proper adjective for it, as words like sloppy, negligent, slipshod, remiss, etc., don't do it justice. How could they possibly expect a new DM to figure out whether an item in the "1,000 to 5,000 gp" category belongs on the lower or upper end of the spectrum? They give utterly zero guidance for this.
There are a couple of resources made by 3rd parties ("Discerning Merchant" on DMG and "Sane Prices" which you can find on reddit or via Google), and those do help a lot, but why on earth did people have to homebrew lists of magic item costs?
This is not something that should have been just hand-waved and left literally 100% up to the DM. Yes, the DM can adjust prices as he sees fit. But a new or inexperienced DM, heck even experienced ones who haven't played 5e before, will not have the same sense of how things fit in the overall game balance that the designers do (at least to the extent that they have any ability to balance things, which I sometimes wonder about). The designers should have provided us with some guidelines... at a minimum some kind of formula, but preferably, since the tables of items are already there, just by putting in one more column with "suggested value" or something.
I for one... might allow a magic item to be sold to the party for the prices suggested in the Sane or Discerning List. But merchants will not buy for full price (because they have to sell). And they generally won't buy big-ticket items because they'll never be able to sell them. Again unless we are talking about a guy selling magic weapons down the block from the Flavian Amphitheater in Rome, where he knows he will find buyers among all the gladiators or something.
That’s the point. It is meant to intentionally make it as difficult as possible to discourage people from doing it at all.
So you are quoting an article from the 2e era. How does that refute my memories from 1e? And did you actually read the article? "Hedge wizards are commonly between 3rd and 5th level.... can be up to 11th level." Too low to be enchanting items and there is no way anyone would leave their inventory of for sale magic items to a 5th level apprentice.
PHB 1E, page 90:
"When a magic-user attains 11th level (Wizard) or higher, he or she may enchant items or scribe magic scrolls."
DMG 1E, page 116:
"Potions may be made by any magic-user of 7th level or above, if he or she enlists the aid of an alchemist (q.v.). At levels above the 11th, such assistance is no longer mandatory, although it will reduce the amount of money and time the player character must spend making the potion by 50% of the compounding/infusing time normally required, as the alchemist will be so employed instead."
DMG 1E, page 117:
"Scrolls may be inscribed only by characters of 7th or higher level, and the spells placed upon the scroll must be of a level which the inscribing character is able to employ, i.e. a 9th level magic-user could not place a 7th level spell on a scroll."
DMG 1E, page 118:
"All of the various other magic items will require the use of the magic spell, enchant an item, save clerical items."
("Enchant an Item" is a 6th level spell, hence why Magic-Users of 11th or higher level are able to make said items.)
All of these are achievable within the level range allowed in that article .... which, let me remind you, was not official rules. It was an opinion/homebrew article, which I only cited to show how unremarkable the concept of a magic item shop was at the time.
...
As for your quibble about 1E versus 2E, you sir included both 1E and 2E in your original objection to the concept of magic item shops.
Anything which exists, and which someone, somewhere, might wish to buy? Has a price. And someone, somewhere, is willing to sell it (provided they can get one TO sell).
Literally anything. Including magic items.
Which means that, even if the items are rare enough that no shops specialize in selling them ... with enough legwork, you certainly should be able to find someplace that does sell them ... or that will undertake to find one to sell to you.
I think the AD&D references you provided were part of the umbrella concept that eventually players expected to retire from adventuring. They were expected (it was theorized that ...) to wish to build a stronghold and operate from that as a base of operations. In their downtime they would undertake pursuits such as crafting magic items, researching a legend with a fabled lost treasure, correspond with other high-level individuals in their field, and stuff like that. After all, someone has to make those teleportation scrolls. But D&D has always been about adventuring instead of building a corporation. I didn't conclude from those quotes that Magic Item Shops would be found in places throughout the realm.
But, I could see where there was a rare book dealer that might have magic scrolls. However, you would have to know somebody to find out about this fact, so the average party member wouldn't just go door to door and ask, "Hey, you got any magic scrolls I could look at?" You might be able to establish a relationship with the owner so that eventually he'd trust you and let you know he sometimes "sees things" that you wouldn't believe. I could even believe this fellow might come into possession of a magical weapon that he keeps tucked away waiting for a trusted client to ask about. But, he makes his money selling books, blank books, ink, paper, and possibly reconditioning books or having your notes bound.
So I follow your argument that everything has a price to some extent.
But then you have the government, or the authorities, or worse, the local Noble despot. Anything of note will come to their attention. And in an era of history such as this, their authority gave them the right to take these things from you, with or without compensation. So dealing in magic items would probably not be unlike selling automatic weapons or military grade hardware. With this in mind, a "Ye Olde Magic Item Shoppe" doesn't fit with my image of plausibility.
Every table has its own culture and I don't want my view to spoil other's idea of fun. But I don't see magic item shops being a good component of a satisfying game. If one pops up in my game, I'm not going on a crusade to have it shut down. I'm just going to roll with it. But I'm not creating one in my worldbuilding.
Enjoy the game.
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You, Sir, have fallen victim to a sickness of the mind: you believe there is only One True Way to play D&D.
In that, to speak plainly and bluntly: you are wrong.
And I have nothing further to say to you on the subject.
Again, your campaign, your campaign economy. Run whatever you and your players enjoy.
However if you are posting publicly, there will from time to time be people who disagree with your approach, or advise against it generally. How is insisting that there should be magic shops any different from expressing the opinion that they are a bad idea?
It's fine to claim they are a bad idea, but it's also worth noting that D&D 5 is the odd one out in this case. I am not aware of any other RPG system that doesn't include rules on how to determine whether a specific item is available for sale and what that item might cost.
Assuming magic item shops / equipment shops of some kind exist is actually the normal case. And it's reasonable to assume since a world where those shops don't exist seems inconsistent and unbelievable. Especially when that same world apparently sells chainmail and plate armor over the counter instead of having them comissioned and become available a year later.
You, Sir, have fallen victim to a sickness of the mind: you believe there is only One True Way to play D&D.
In that, to speak plainly and bluntly: you are wrong.
And I have nothing further to say to you on the subject.
Again, your campaign, your campaign economy. Run whatever you and your players enjoy.
However if you are posting publicly, there will from time to time be people who disagree with your approach, or advise against it generally. How is insisting that there should be magic shops any different from expressing the opinion that they are a bad idea?
It's fine to claim they are a bad idea, but it's also worth noting that D&D 5 is the odd one out in this case. I am not aware of any other RPG system that doesn't include rules on how to determine whether a specific item is available for sale and what that item might cost.
Assuming magic item shops / equipment shops of some kind exist is actually the normal case. And it's reasonable to assume since a world where those shops don't exist seems inconsistent and unbelievable. Especially when that same world apparently sells chainmail and plate armor over the counter instead of having them comissioned and become available a year later.
I quoted the 2e DMG directly though advising against such shops.
And making normal armour just needs normal materials. Any level 1 could make it, given the resources and having taken the skill. Making magic items in every edition has required minimum exceptional workmanship (not something that is necessarily available everywhere; fantastic materials, particularly to make anything above a +1 and above and beyond all that, a high level caster with nothing better to do than mass produce items.
And on top of that, there has to be no other buyers snapping up such items before any PC's even see them, despite any such caster likely being either beholden to the local lord, or being the local lord themselves. Even if the city is literally sitting on a mithril vein, it is almost certainly considered a strategic resource controlled by the King.
So I ask again... on what basis are such shops reasonable?
Those items exist. Some people have them, others don't. Some people want them, other's don't. That is all you need to have someone trading in them.
Moreover, these items are valuable. A magic item can easily gain you a couple thousand gold coins... sell one sword and you make more money than a farmer in a year.
If no one ever had a reason to craft them, they wouldn't exist in the first place, so obviously some powerful spellcasters had an interest to craft them. Maybe they traded them for valuable material components, or they paid a city watch for protection from angry citizens. Or they just needed to earn some money for a luxurious lifestyle and crafting a magic item in a month earned them enough to live a year.
Turn it around: let's assume there are no magic shops. So whenever some adventuring bard finds a magic greatsword, what do they do? Throw it away? Use it? They can't use it, they can't sell it so throwing away makes the most sense. In that case magic items aren't special anymore: they are trash to get rid of. But what happens when the bard tells her barbarian friend of that annoying magic vorpal greatsword she threw into the trash and complains that there are never any good instruments. And now the barbarian tells the bard of that magic lute she just trashed an hour ago. Damn. If only they could've traded those items. What you"ve got at this point is the basic beginnings of trade. I give you a goat and you give me two chickens for it. Eventually that will evolve into an economy, replacing goats, chickens, greatswords and lutes with coins and the friendly meeting in the tavern with merchants that buy items from someone and sell them to others, making a profit by it.
No matter how you turn it or which angle you look at it: you will have a merchant buying and selling these items. They may not have exactly what you want or pay you what you'd like to get for your fancy armor, and they may not be in every small village, but somewhere in the world there will be a person trading magic items. And people who look for magic items or want to sell them will know where this person is, because that person will make sure everyone interested knows their shop. Or their blackmarket auction. Or whatever else they use to trade.
The question is not *if* a shop exists, it's only *how many* exist and what do they have at the moment the players go shopping.
And on top of that, there has to be no other buyers snapping up such items before any PC's even see them, despite any such caster likely being either beholden to the local lord, or being the local lord themselves. Even if the city is literally sitting on a mithril vein, it is almost certainly considered a strategic resource controlled by the King.
So I ask again... on what basis are such shops reasonable?
The same logic that applies to magic items, also applies to chain and plate mail. You don't seem to mind the idea of any random walking into a shop, and being able to buy a suit of chain mail or full plate armor, which already fits them properly, and walking out with it on the same day.
For just one example: Full Plate costs 1,500gp to buy; to make; at 50gp/week of progress, that is 30 weeks of work. 30 weeks during which that armorer does nothing else - so while he's making your suit of Full Plate, he's not making anyone else's any sort of armor (or shield) at all. Also, 30 weeks during which your character must make himself readily available for fitting each piece properly. So, 30 weeks during which you're not going to do much adventuring, either. (Even "just" a suit of chain mail is going to take 2 weeks to craft.)
But you balk at the idea of a magic item shop - which in 5E is likely mostly about common items, lower-level potions, and possibly some scrolls ... but, if you DO want to sell that +1 Shortsword, and don't want to put in the time to find a buyer directly, that's just the shop to go to ... and if you want to buy a +1 rapier, guess what, you're going to go to that very shop, too (and hope to get inordinately lucky - but more likely, let the shop owner know "I want to buy [item], and I'll pay you [amount] for it if you happen to find one" - and maybe a month or a year later, you get a letter or note (or Message sending) from that fellow saying they've found that thing you were looking for).
After all, we're not talking about places that have Legendary or even Very Rare items laying about on shelves, collecting dust, after all. You might uncommonly fine one or two Uncommon items, and on rare occasion, a Rare item for sale.
So, your last question?
There are undeniably magic items out there.
There are undeniably people who would wish to purchase them.
Thus, on what basis does it not make sense for there to be somewhere these things are bought and sold?
In the real world, you don't find original works of Picasso, Modrian, or Monet in a corner drugstore. But you can find them, from time to time, in prestigious auction houses like Sotheby's.
There is no reason, other than personal taste, not to treat magic items in a similar fashion: expensive, rarely seen for sale, but there are places you know to go looking for when you are in a buying (or selling) mood.
Have you ever actually fired a medieval bow? I have. When you are beginning you pull back the bow and your hands literally SHAKE. You need to have the strength to hold it drawn while you aim. Dexterity is worthless without the strength to hold the bow drawn. (Especially in medieval armies that have hundreds of men grouped together and firing as a group at another group.)
So like armor, simply give a minimum Strength score to wield a Longbow. Then still have Dexterity for bonus to attack.
So like armor, simply give a minimum Strength score to wield a Longbow. Then still have Dexterity for bonus to attack.
Most things should have minimum Strength scores.
It's even applicable, somewhat, to Crossbows: you need an awful lot of strength to re-cock one. Indeed, for some of the heavier models, you need more strength than 99.9999% of the human species is capable of .... which is why they tended to come with a winch, often built right into the weapon. Even Light Crossbows, it wasn't a matter of simply reaching forward and pulling the string back into place; the front of the crossbow had a stirrup, you'd brace on the ground with your foot, in order to pull the string back with both hands. GURPS, IIRC, has rules for how many rounds does it take to cock a crossbow, calculated in part from your STrength score.
I'm less concerned with that in 5E, than I am in GURPS, though - because 5E is way more abstract, using six-second rounds .... whereas GURPS uses one-second rounds, and combat is literally blow-by-blow: an attack roll is a single swing of your sword, axe, mace, or whatever. :)
So, in GURPS, firing a Heavy Crossbow might go like this:
Cock weapon
Load bolt
Ready weapon (As in, bring it up to your shoulder, in firing position)
Aim (with as few shots as you get, taking a moment to increase your accuracy is worth it)
FIRE!!
And the next shot, would take the same 5-round process! :D And if your strength was lower than the crossbow required, it could take you multiple rounds to cock the bow - as many as three or four, IIRC.
I treat 5E as more "cinematic" than "simulationist". When I can introduce realistic elements that aren't going to jiggle Balance's elbow, I do - the open sewers thing I mentioned above, for example. But otherwise, eh, if it'd be good enough for a high-quality LOTR film, it's good enough for D&D. :)
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The very first game of D&D I played in, was 1E AD&D. It was back in 1980 pr 1981, I was nine or ten years old.
The GM - an adult, not just a young kid like we players were - had a magic item shop we could go to. (Twist: none of the items were identified, so, caveat emptor in a big way). That was forty years ago, and four entire editions of D&D. At the time, the only books were the DMG, PHB, MM, later that year, the Fiend Folio. Oh, and the Folio edition of the World of Greyhawk (the Boxed Set wasn't published until 1983). That's it. That's everything.
Nor was he uncommon for having done that; I can't think of a single early GM who didn't have one..
Which means, Magic Item Shops have been a part of D&D, for longer than 99% of what everyone accepts is D&D.
In my current game, our DM has allowed us to buy just about any scroll for the typical GP cost, which I think is 1st level 100gp, 2nd level 300gp, 3rd level 600gp, 4th level 1000gp, and so on. Other than buying scrolls, nothing. If you want something you have to tell the DM and he will decide if he is going to let you get it and he puts it in a treasure somewhere when he wants to give it to you. He may decide he doesn't want you to have it. I have asked him how much an item should cost, if I can find it. He would tell me some big number of gold. I start saving my pennies; then an encounter or two later, Well lookie here. That's how I got my Elven chain armor.
When I was playing AD&D, some DMs didn't want to run low level campaigns, so we started about level ten or so. They let us have powerful magic items. If I had played long enough, I would have come to realize that wasn't much fun to steamroll all the monsters. But the other half of the DMs I played with back then would not dream of having a magic item shop. That's why you went on adventures.
Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt
Fifth Edition is the first version of the game that's actually tried to not have a magic item economy.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Perhaps you missed the third paragraph?
Literally EVERY game I played in the 1980s, there was a magic item shop somewhere in town. It was a typical thing for GMs to do, at the time. A bit over half the time, it was a place to buy a scroll or two, or pick up a few potions - and, perhaps, sell (or trade!) magic items you had obtained while adventuring, but did not want or need. (e.g., when you've had a +1 sword for a while, but just found a +2 weapon .... what do you do with the +1 weapon? Surely, not casually discard it ...!)
Also ... Dragon #163 (November, 1990), the article Hedge Wizards" by Greg Sharp, which opens with:
"Hedge wizard" is a term that's come up in my campaign to describe the proprietors of small "magic shops" in villages and cities in AD&D campaigns.
... which clearly suggests that some sort of "magic shop" was common enough by then, not to even elicit any especial comment on it's mere existence.
read where he said 'I can't think of a single early GM...' A game is more than a defined set of rules.
Guide to the Five Factions (PWYW)
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It does make sense to have magic item shops, though.
At least if magic items exist in the world, someone has to craft them. And that someone will probably want to sell them. Even if you have a setting where all of these things were mysteriously created in the old age and nobody today knows how to do this (XGtE and its crafting rules object), they would be like rare antiquities. The PCs are not the only people who explore old places and find useless stuff they want to sell off. And if there are enough people selling, there will be traders buying and reselling at higher prices, just like it works with antiques in our world.
Finally, the PCs usually earn quite a lot of money. If they can't buy anything useful, why even bother giving them that money in the first place?
In a lot of systems gear and equipment is just as important for characters as class skills or feats. D&D 5 is imho significantly lacking in this, it doesn't even provide guidelines on how much an item should be worth. Or, well, it does, but they're kind of useless ("Something between 1000 and 5000 GP.").
Yup.
This is... I can't even come up with a proper adjective for it, as words like sloppy, negligent, slipshod, remiss, etc., don't do it justice. How could they possibly expect a new DM to figure out whether an item in the "1,000 to 5,000 gp" category belongs on the lower or upper end of the spectrum? They give utterly zero guidance for this.
There are a couple of resources made by 3rd parties ("Discerning Merchant" on DMG and "Sane Prices" which you can find on reddit or via Google), and those do help a lot, but why on earth did people have to homebrew lists of magic item costs?
This is not something that should have been just hand-waved and left literally 100% up to the DM. Yes, the DM can adjust prices as he sees fit. But a new or inexperienced DM, heck even experienced ones who haven't played 5e before, will not have the same sense of how things fit in the overall game balance that the designers do (at least to the extent that they have any ability to balance things, which I sometimes wonder about). The designers should have provided us with some guidelines... at a minimum some kind of formula, but preferably, since the tables of items are already there, just by putting in one more column with "suggested value" or something.
I for one... might allow a magic item to be sold to the party for the prices suggested in the Sane or Discerning List. But merchants will not buy for full price (because they have to sell). And they generally won't buy big-ticket items because they'll never be able to sell them. Again unless we are talking about a guy selling magic weapons down the block from the Flavian Amphitheater in Rome, where he knows he will find buyers among all the gladiators or something.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
That’s the point. It is meant to intentionally make it as difficult as possible to discourage people from doing it at all.
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PHB 1E, page 90:
"When a magic-user attains 11th level (Wizard) or higher, he or she may enchant items or scribe magic scrolls."
DMG 1E, page 116:
"Potions may be made by any magic-user of 7th level or above, if he or she enlists the aid of an alchemist (q.v.). At levels above the 11th, such assistance is no longer mandatory, although it will reduce the amount of money and time the player character must spend making the potion by 50% of the compounding/infusing time normally required, as the alchemist will be so employed instead."
DMG 1E, page 117:
"Scrolls may be inscribed only by characters of 7th or higher level, and the spells placed upon the scroll must be of a level which the inscribing character is able to employ, i.e. a 9th level magic-user could not place a 7th level spell on a scroll."
DMG 1E, page 118:
"All of the various other magic items will require the use of the magic spell, enchant an item, save clerical items."
("Enchant an Item" is a 6th level spell, hence why Magic-Users of 11th or higher level are able to make said items.)
All of these are achievable within the level range allowed in that article .... which, let me remind you, was not official rules. It was an opinion/homebrew article, which I only cited to show how unremarkable the concept of a magic item shop was at the time.
...
As for your quibble about 1E versus 2E, you sir included both 1E and 2E in your original objection to the concept of magic item shops.
I will also say this, as well:
Anything which exists, and which someone, somewhere, might wish to buy? Has a price. And someone, somewhere, is willing to sell it (provided they can get one TO sell).
Literally anything. Including magic items.
Which means that, even if the items are rare enough that no shops specialize in selling them ... with enough legwork, you certainly should be able to find someplace that does sell them ... or that will undertake to find one to sell to you.
You, Sir, have fallen victim to a sickness of the mind: you believe there is only One True Way to play D&D.
In that, to speak plainly and bluntly: you are wrong.
And I have nothing further to say to you on the subject.
@ _Pax_
I think the AD&D references you provided were part of the umbrella concept that eventually players expected to retire from adventuring. They were expected (it was theorized that ...) to wish to build a stronghold and operate from that as a base of operations. In their downtime they would undertake pursuits such as crafting magic items, researching a legend with a fabled lost treasure, correspond with other high-level individuals in their field, and stuff like that. After all, someone has to make those teleportation scrolls. But D&D has always been about adventuring instead of building a corporation. I didn't conclude from those quotes that Magic Item Shops would be found in places throughout the realm.
But, I could see where there was a rare book dealer that might have magic scrolls. However, you would have to know somebody to find out about this fact, so the average party member wouldn't just go door to door and ask, "Hey, you got any magic scrolls I could look at?" You might be able to establish a relationship with the owner so that eventually he'd trust you and let you know he sometimes "sees things" that you wouldn't believe. I could even believe this fellow might come into possession of a magical weapon that he keeps tucked away waiting for a trusted client to ask about. But, he makes his money selling books, blank books, ink, paper, and possibly reconditioning books or having your notes bound.
So I follow your argument that everything has a price to some extent.
But then you have the government, or the authorities, or worse, the local Noble despot. Anything of note will come to their attention. And in an era of history such as this, their authority gave them the right to take these things from you, with or without compensation. So dealing in magic items would probably not be unlike selling automatic weapons or military grade hardware. With this in mind, a "Ye Olde Magic Item Shoppe" doesn't fit with my image of plausibility.
Every table has its own culture and I don't want my view to spoil other's idea of fun. But I don't see magic item shops being a good component of a satisfying game. If one pops up in my game, I'm not going on a crusade to have it shut down. I'm just going to roll with it. But I'm not creating one in my worldbuilding.
Enjoy the game.
Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt
It's fine to claim they are a bad idea, but it's also worth noting that D&D 5 is the odd one out in this case. I am not aware of any other RPG system that doesn't include rules on how to determine whether a specific item is available for sale and what that item might cost.
Assuming magic item shops / equipment shops of some kind exist is actually the normal case. And it's reasonable to assume since a world where those shops don't exist seems inconsistent and unbelievable. Especially when that same world apparently sells chainmail and plate armor over the counter instead of having them comissioned and become available a year later.
Those items exist. Some people have them, others don't. Some people want them, other's don't. That is all you need to have someone trading in them.
Moreover, these items are valuable. A magic item can easily gain you a couple thousand gold coins... sell one sword and you make more money than a farmer in a year.
If no one ever had a reason to craft them, they wouldn't exist in the first place, so obviously some powerful spellcasters had an interest to craft them. Maybe they traded them for valuable material components, or they paid a city watch for protection from angry citizens. Or they just needed to earn some money for a luxurious lifestyle and crafting a magic item in a month earned them enough to live a year.
Turn it around: let's assume there are no magic shops. So whenever some adventuring bard finds a magic greatsword, what do they do? Throw it away? Use it? They can't use it, they can't sell it so throwing away makes the most sense. In that case magic items aren't special anymore: they are trash to get rid of. But what happens when the bard tells her barbarian friend of that annoying magic vorpal greatsword she threw into the trash and complains that there are never any good instruments. And now the barbarian tells the bard of that magic lute she just trashed an hour ago. Damn. If only they could've traded those items. What you"ve got at this point is the basic beginnings of trade. I give you a goat and you give me two chickens for it. Eventually that will evolve into an economy, replacing goats, chickens, greatswords and lutes with coins and the friendly meeting in the tavern with merchants that buy items from someone and sell them to others, making a profit by it.
No matter how you turn it or which angle you look at it: you will have a merchant buying and selling these items. They may not have exactly what you want or pay you what you'd like to get for your fancy armor, and they may not be in every small village, but somewhere in the world there will be a person trading magic items. And people who look for magic items or want to sell them will know where this person is, because that person will make sure everyone interested knows their shop. Or their blackmarket auction. Or whatever else they use to trade.
The question is not *if* a shop exists, it's only *how many* exist and what do they have at the moment the players go shopping.
That's not all you've done, though. The totality of yoru posts comes across as ... well, sneering at "kids who have it so easy these days".
The same logic that applies to magic items, also applies to chain and plate mail. You don't seem to mind the idea of any random walking into a shop, and being able to buy a suit of chain mail or full plate armor, which already fits them properly, and walking out with it on the same day.
For just one example: Full Plate costs 1,500gp to buy; to make; at 50gp/week of progress, that is 30 weeks of work. 30 weeks during which that armorer does nothing else - so while he's making your suit of Full Plate, he's not making anyone else's any sort of armor (or shield) at all. Also, 30 weeks during which your character must make himself readily available for fitting each piece properly. So, 30 weeks during which you're not going to do much adventuring, either. (Even "just" a suit of chain mail is going to take 2 weeks to craft.)
But you balk at the idea of a magic item shop - which in 5E is likely mostly about common items, lower-level potions, and possibly some scrolls ... but, if you DO want to sell that +1 Shortsword, and don't want to put in the time to find a buyer directly, that's just the shop to go to ... and if you want to buy a +1 rapier, guess what, you're going to go to that very shop, too (and hope to get inordinately lucky - but more likely, let the shop owner know "I want to buy [item], and I'll pay you [amount] for it if you happen to find one" - and maybe a month or a year later, you get a letter or note (or Message sending) from that fellow saying they've found that thing you were looking for).
After all, we're not talking about places that have Legendary or even Very Rare items laying about on shelves, collecting dust, after all. You might uncommonly fine one or two Uncommon items, and on rare occasion, a Rare item for sale.
So, your last question?
There are undeniably magic items out there.
There are undeniably people who would wish to purchase them.
Thus, on what basis does it not make sense for there to be somewhere these things are bought and sold?
In the real world, you don't find original works of Picasso, Modrian, or Monet in a corner drugstore. But you can find them, from time to time, in prestigious auction houses like Sotheby's.
There is no reason, other than personal taste, not to treat magic items in a similar fashion: expensive, rarely seen for sale, but there are places you know to go looking for when you are in a buying (or selling) mood.
/facepalm
Way to completely miss the point.
I obviously made a mistake re-engaging with you. You're not open to reason on this subject.
Good day, you win, I quit.
So like armor, simply give a minimum Strength score to wield a Longbow. Then still have Dexterity for bonus to attack.
Most things should have minimum Strength scores.
It's even applicable, somewhat, to Crossbows: you need an awful lot of strength to re-cock one. Indeed, for some of the heavier models, you need more strength than 99.9999% of the human species is capable of .... which is why they tended to come with a winch, often built right into the weapon. Even Light Crossbows, it wasn't a matter of simply reaching forward and pulling the string back into place; the front of the crossbow had a stirrup, you'd brace on the ground with your foot, in order to pull the string back with both hands. GURPS, IIRC, has rules for how many rounds does it take to cock a crossbow, calculated in part from your STrength score.
I'm less concerned with that in 5E, than I am in GURPS, though - because 5E is way more abstract, using six-second rounds .... whereas GURPS uses one-second rounds, and combat is literally blow-by-blow: an attack roll is a single swing of your sword, axe, mace, or whatever. :)
So, in GURPS, firing a Heavy Crossbow might go like this:
And the next shot, would take the same 5-round process! :D And if your strength was lower than the crossbow required, it could take you multiple rounds to cock the bow - as many as three or four, IIRC.
Let’s agree that 5e doesn’t make realistic sense and take it from there😂
“I will take responsibility for what I have done. [...] If must fall, I will rise each time a better man.” ― Brandon Sanderson, Oathbringer.
Oh, heck yeah.
I treat 5E as more "cinematic" than "simulationist". When I can introduce realistic elements that aren't going to jiggle Balance's elbow, I do - the open sewers thing I mentioned above, for example. But otherwise, eh, if it'd be good enough for a high-quality LOTR film, it's good enough for D&D. :)