a) The need to choose carefully in advance which spells you believe would be most useful that day or
b) Not having to choose, but having a lot fewer spells to choose from when you want to cast one of them.
If (a), play a wizard. If (b), play a sorcerer, warlock or bard.
Also pay attention to where you are and where you expect to be going. Investigate targets. Ask questions and avoid going in blindly. Wizard players should actually play their intelligent characters like their characters have intelligence rather than simply playing characters that have a high number beside 'Int' on a piece of paper.
What we are saying is that (a) ends up being a moot point because you have absolutely no idea what will happen on many given days and even attempting to guess goes badly as often as it goes well, so most days you just default to the same balanced list of spells.
Problem is, why play wizard then? Just play sorcerer or bard and build a balanced repertoire of spells and enjoy the significantly more powerful class features.
You have absolutely no clue? Really? It is rare that one's character cannot even see the terrain around them, or that the terrain changes randomly on its own. Your character should have at least some clue of the world they live in, even if you do not. Ask your DM what your character knows about the local area. Scout. Take notes.
If you think the extra choices are useless every time, then yes, perhaps not play a wizard. It is not a given that any given class is equally useful in every situation. But if you really believe that the reduced choices make no difference, you would already be playing a sorcerer or bard. If you do not realize the difference, write one of each up to 10+ level.
Problem is that preparing a balanced list of spells, which typically is the optimal thing to do, eats up your prep limit really fast. If the wizard could prepare more spells you could experiment more with those extra choices, and afford to end up taking a few duds for the day and still be ok.
I'm not saying remove the prep limit completely but it should be higher so the wizard can actually be what they are suppose to be- a Swiss army knife of different spells.
a) The need to choose carefully in advance which spells you believe would be most useful that day or
b) Not having to choose, but having a lot fewer spells to choose from when you want to cast one of them.
If (a), play a wizard. If (b), play a sorcerer, warlock or bard.
Also pay attention to where you are and where you expect to be going. Investigate targets. Ask questions and avoid going in blindly. Wizard players should actually play their intelligent characters like their characters have intelligence rather than simply playing characters that have a high number beside 'Int' on a piece of paper.
What we are saying is that (a) ends up being a moot point because you have absolutely no idea what will happen on many given days and even attempting to guess goes badly as often as it goes well, so most days you just default to the same balanced list of spells.
Problem is, why play wizard then? Just play sorcerer or bard and build a balanced repertoire of spells and enjoy the significantly more powerful class features.
Back in older editions, a Wizard didn’t have to prepare their spell list for the day and then get to pick and choose what they cast. Back then, any Spellcaster had to prepare each individual spell slot with a specific spell for the day. If a Player wanted to be able to cast Magic Missile twice that day, the Player had to prepare two 1st-level slots with Magic Missile. There were no Cantrips nor Ritual spells back then either. As players, we had to plan very carefully for what we expected to face each coming day.
If we could play D&D that way for all those years, playing this way now is totally doable. In fact, this is like “easy mode” compared to a 2e Arcane Magic User (there were no Wizards backs then) or an AD&D2e Wizard. Maybe it’s simply because I have those older editions to compare to, but my very first thought after picking up the 5e PHB was “Man, Wizards have it so much easier these days!”
Wasn't spell prep even 15 minutes per level of each spell, I think it was in 1st edition. So it could take a high level Wizard a couple of days if they cast every single spell.
Sorry didn’t read whole thread , on my lunch break, so don’t know if this has all been mentioned.
Basically wizards, clerics, druids are in the same boat and have to prepare spells. OP, do you think clerics and druids are bad too? Yes they have access to the entire spell list where wizard only has their spell book but wizards could potentially have all their spells too in their book.
advantage wizard is they don’t need to prepare rituals where clerics and druids do (well I know druids do as I’m playing one) to cast them as rituals.
im fine with preparing. I don’t know what might come next so it’s a crap shoot but that’s part of what makes it interesting. A few sessions ago we encountered a flying creature we had to fight. First time for that and had issues until we got it on the ground. So I now prepare Earthbind and haven’t faced a flying enemy since. That’s the way it goes.
and reducing slots I don’t think helps as you become even more useless, a more versatile useless to be sure, after a few encounters unless you take lots of long rests. the example of using spider climb to get to treasure but monster is there and you need to save a slot for magic missile is it worth it. Reduces slots you may consider forgoing the treasure but if you prepared both spells you can go for it no worry.
I tend to be fine the way it is, better than in AD&D where I had to prepare magic missile multiple times or I was one shot and relying on my dagger.
my vote would be fine as is, but add more utility rituals :)
Problem is that preparing a balanced list of spells, which typically is the optimal thing to do, eats up your prep limit really fast. If the wizard could prepare more spells you could experiment more with those extra choices, and afford to end up taking a few duds for the day and still be ok.
I'm not saying remove the prep limit completely but it should be higher so the wizard can actually be what they are suppose to be- a Swiss army knife of different spells.
That’s exactly why so many of the “we know you want to take these but don’t want to waste the prepared spell on them*” spells are Rituals, and why Wizards can cast Ritual Spells directly from their book without preparing them. Wizards are the only prepared spellcaster that can cast unprepared rituals. Artificers, Clerics, Druids... they all need a good night’s sleep to swap their crap out. Wizards just need an extra 10 minutes to get their shoes on and they’re ready to dance. They are the only Class in all of 5e with that ability.
Wasn't spell prep even 15 minutes per level of each spell, I think it was in 1st edition. So it could take a high level Wizard a couple of days if they cast every single spell.
That doesn’t sound familiar, but I haven’t played AD&D2e in 20 years. As I recall you prepared your list for the next day at the beginning of a “long rest” (they weren’t called that back then). The downside there was getting super hosed if the night’s sleep were interrupted. And most spells only took 1 turn to cast. (There were no Actions, Bonus Actions, Reactions back then either.) But, like I said, we’re talking 2 decades ago. Even I don’t hold crap I don’t use anymore in my head that long.
advantage wizard is they don’t need to prepare rituals where clerics and druids do (well I know druids do as I’m playing one) to cast them as rituals.
im fine with preparing. I don’t know what might come next so it’s a crap shoot but that’s part of what makes it interesting. A few sessions ago....
[sic]
I tend to be fine the way it is, better than in AD&D where I had to prepare magic missile multiple times or I was one shot and relying on my dagger.
my vote would be fine as is, but add more utility rituals :)
Yup, Clerics and Artificers are just like Druids for that. In one of the campaigns I’m in as a player, I have been playing as an Artificer. A few months ago we had 3 Long Rests in the same session. The first day I didn’t have a spell prepared that would have been useful, so the next day I swapped that spell in and swapped out a different spell. The next day the spell I swapped out would have been more useful, so that night I swapped it back in and dropped another different spell. Wouldn’t you know it but that next day the spell I had just swapped out would have been more useful! That last night I swapped back to my usual choices and just pressed onward.
It was a little annoying, but way too funny. That’s just D&D. It made for a funny story anyway. And isn’t that why we play, to tell stories?
(Your Wizard went with the Dagger?!? Crossbow all the way.)
a) The need to choose carefully in advance which spells you believe would be most useful that day or
b) Not having to choose, but having a lot fewer spells to choose from when you want to cast one of them.
If (a), play a wizard. If (b), play a sorcerer, warlock or bard.
Also pay attention to where you are and where you expect to be going. Investigate targets. Ask questions and avoid going in blindly. Wizard players should actually play their intelligent characters like their characters have intelligence rather than simply playing characters that have a high number beside 'Int' on a piece of paper.
What we are saying is that (a) ends up being a moot point because you have absolutely no idea what will happen on many given days and even attempting to guess goes badly as often as it goes well, so most days you just default to the same balanced list of spells.
Problem is, why play wizard then? Just play sorcerer or bard and build a balanced repertoire of spells and enjoy the significantly more powerful class features.
I would also posit that yes, sometimes you will misjudge a situation and prepare the wrong spell list and things may go fantastically wrong, but potential for failure has always been one of the things that makes D&D fun, presenting all kinds of roleplay and problem solving opportunities.
Sometimes bringing the wrong spell list can result in *more* memorable encounters as you have to try use the spells you did bring in unorthodox and creative ways.
Not to mention, that possibility of failure really brings into sharper relief those times where you do properly research and you bring the absolutely perfect spell that saves the day at zero hour (like Taako with Phantom Steed after Merle falls off the car in TAZ: Petals to the Metal) and you get to be a hero. Sometimes failure, or at least the possibility for failure, is a good thing from a gameplay standpoint.
advantage wizard is they don’t need to prepare rituals where clerics and druids do (well I know druids do as I’m playing one) to cast them as rituals.
im fine with preparing. I don’t know what might come next so it’s a crap shoot but that’s part of what makes it interesting. A few sessions ago....
[sic]
I tend to be fine the way it is, better than in AD&D where I had to prepare magic missile multiple times or I was one shot and relying on my dagger.
my vote would be fine as is, but add more utility rituals :)
Yup, Clerics and Artificers are just like Druids for that. In one of the campaigns I’m in as a player, I have been playing as an Artificer. A few months ago we had 3 Long Rests in the same session. The first day I didn’t have a spell prepared that would have been useful, so the next day I swapped that spell in and swapped out a different spell. The next day the spell I swapped out would have been more useful, so that night I swapped it back in and dropped another different spell. Wouldn’t you know it but that next day the spell I had just swapped out would have been more useful! That last night I swapped back to my usual choices and just pressed onward.
It was a little annoying, but way too funny. That’s just D&D. It made for a funny story anyway. And isn’t that why we play, to tell stories?
(Your Wizard went with the Dagger?!? Crossbow all the way.)
But yes, more utility rituals would be nice.
I don’t recall if AD&D Magic-Users could use crossbows but if they could I probably had one. But I know for sure he had a dagger.
and compared to some other casters who have only their known spells, like sorcerers who at 5th level only know 6 spells (not including cantrips) compared to a 5th level wizard with 14 spells minimum in their book if they don’t know a spell they need that’s it. A wizard just needs a good night’s sleep and has 8 more options to choose from to prepare.
Wizards are the only prepared spellcaster that can cast unprepared rituals. Artificers, Clerics, Druids... they all need a good night’s sleep to swap their crap out. Wizards just need an extra 10 minutes to get their shoes on and they’re ready to dance. They are the only Class in all of 5e with that ability.
*Detect Magic, Identify, Unseen Servant, etc.
Dang it, where in the RAW does it say a wizard needs appropriate footwear as a material component or choreography as a somatic component for rituals? This 5e, I tell ya..... ;)
In the older editions of 2E and AD&D, magic users / wizards were classes a lot of groups wouldn't let new players play because they were so underpowered and the magic system took a lot more player "study" at the start they were often a party liability that wouldn't make it through the first combat encounter anyway. 5e definitely puts the Wizard on a more even keel with other characters, but also proliferates magic across classes (rogues and fighters with subclass options?) so I could see the challenges felt by a new player wanting to be a wizard scholar who gains power through knowledge and learning magic as opposed to a sorcerer who "just does it."
With spell prep, I have my party discuss spells as a team effort. Magic ability could put a character in a variety of roles in an adventure and it's good prep for characters to have a good understanding of "who does what" in certain circumstances.
Some other things to keep in mind: As for the Swiss army knife, I think it's been pointed out that the rhetorical tool of that metaphor is sort of broken in this discussion. Sometimes a Swiss army knife is loaded with regular blade, a corkscrew, a mini saw, a special hook for cutting seat belts, and a magnifying glass ... and when it comes down to it, what you really need is a can opener. In that event, it may not be the safest, could even by injurious, but sometimes you have to make do with what you got. Adapt, improvise, overcome is a good motto for a wizard and DMs should reward wizards for novel uses of their magic.
The wizard is a more challenging class than others, I'd grant, but the proposals that started this thread just strikes me as written by someone who's comparing tables rather than spending some time really trying to play wizards within the parameters written.
Back in earlier edition days mentioned, and I"d be surprised if this doesn't still happen, a lot of magic user characters, especially wizards would have various "load outs" of their spell lists. I like the players who had a set of load outs for meat grinder runs, exploration, social intrigue, etc. But left room for a spell or two they haven't used before "just to see what it might do".
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I don’t recall if AD&D Magic-Users could use crossbows but if they could I probably had one. But I know for sure he had a dagger.
and compared to some other casters who have only their known spells, like sorcerers who at 5th level only know 6 spells (not including cantrips) compared to a 5th level wizard with 14 spells minimum in their book if they don’t know a spell they need that’s it. A wizard just needs a good night’s sleep and has 8 more options to choose from to prepare.
The crossbow was the most powerful of all of the ranged weapons that an Arcane Magic User could take. It was so commonplace that it would have been a meme if memes had existed back then.
I agree, 5e Wizards really have it made. They may not be the easiest class to play, but if the player plans properly for the day ahead, nobody can outcast them.
In the older editions of 2E and AD&D, magic users / wizards were classes a lot of groups wouldn't let new players play because they were so underpowered and the magic system took a lot more player "study" at the start they were often a party liability that wouldn't make it through the first combat encounter anyway.
Yeah, but that was only until about 3rd level. By then the Arcane Magic User (D&D2e)/Wizard (AD&D2e) had started to pull ahead. By 5th level they were definitely solid, and by 9th (ish) they basically did everything.
By contrast, a Fighter was basically out of tricks by 5th level and there really wasn’t much point to playing one anymore half of the time.
That’s exactly why so many of the “we know you want to take these but don’t want to waste the prepared spell on them*” spells are Rituals, and why Wizards can cast Ritual Spells directly from their book without preparing them. Wizards are the only prepared spellcaster that can cast unprepared rituals. Artificers, Clerics, Druids... they all need a good night’s sleep to swap their crap out. Wizards just need an extra 10 minutes to get their shoes on and they’re ready to dance. They are the only Class in all of 5e with that ability.
*Detect Magic, Identify, Unseen Servant, etc.
Thank you for pointing that out, I didn't realize that. "Ritual Casting" isn't in the "Features" column of the wizard level progression block and I must have missed that sentence about it or forgot about it.
That does significantly improve my opinion of wizards!
Sorry didn’t read whole thread , on my lunch break, so don’t know if this has all been mentioned.
Basically wizards, clerics, druids are in the same boat and have to prepare spells. OP, do you think clerics and druids are bad too? Yes they have access to the entire spell list where wizard only has their spell book but wizards could potentially have all their spells too in their book.
advantage wizard is they don’t need to prepare rituals where clerics and druids do (well I know druids do as I’m playing one) to cast them as rituals.
im fine with preparing. I don’t know what might come next so it’s a crap shoot but that’s part of what makes it interesting. A few sessions ago we encountered a flying creature we had to fight. First time for that and had issues until we got it on the ground. So I now prepare Earthbind and haven’t faced a flying enemy since. That’s the way it goes.
and reducing slots I don’t think helps as you become even more useless, a more versatile useless to be sure, after a few encounters unless you take lots of long rests. the example of using spider climb to get to treasure but monster is there and you need to save a slot for magic missile is it worth it. Reduces slots you may consider forgoing the treasure but if you prepared both spells you can go for it no worry.
I tend to be fine the way it is, better than in AD&D where I had to prepare magic missile multiple times or I was one shot and relying on my dagger.
my vote would be fine as is, but add more utility rituals :)
I don't play too much Cleric or Druid, so I can't speak with as much authority on them. That said, I'm ok with prepped spells on them, though I'm not the biggest fan. Neither of them are crippled as much as Wizards, since they have other class features and abilities that the player can utilize. Clerics in particular are about as versatile as they come, having so many domains with wildly different themes and features to them. Wizards, on the other hand, only have one real, core, defining mechanic with their spellbooks, and it comes with a huge drawback, leaving them with basically nothing.
As to the point of Prepared Spells being worse in previous editions and we should be happy with what we have now (which I've seen in a number of posts), just because something used to be worse, doesn't mean it's good now. Any activist group in history will tell you that.
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why the hell isn't the "edit post" button working?
I play a Cleric and have the full spell list selection option. I don't think the problem is really a Wizard thing, it's the Prepared Spell List. So many of my spells go unused as they are niche or have some other very situationally dependent qualities. That just doesn't allow some of them to be prepared over go to Bread and Butter spells. There should be a, "I need to use this spell", mechanic.
I would be happy to be allowed to cast said emergency spell at the cost of 2 spell slots that are 1 level higher than the spell actually being cast, as the price for some flexibility.
It was way worse in previous editions =)
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Im not getting the point of this thread. Wizards went from having prepared spell slots to a spontaneous casting system where they can change their spells known daily to whatever is in their spellbook plus they can situationally prepare more spells since prohibited spell schools were axed in 5e. How is that not a huge buff? The sorcerer on the other hand lost half their spell list as well as 2/3 the spells known and their core identity was given to the prepared casting classes. Not understanding how wizards got nerfed at all.
And I strongly urge you to reconsider the value of their other class features (all three of them 🙄).
Arcane Recovery. Pound for pound the biggest boost a spellcaster can get for spell slots/LR. Converting Sorcery points cannot even compare to it since it’s better to spend those on Metamagic, conversion is a waste. The only thing that can hope to compare is a Warlock who take, like, eighty seven naps a day.
And I don’t wanna hear about cheeseball coffeelock shenanigans. I know you’re out there random person in the future reading this and about to say “Yeah but....” I may not know who you are, but I know you were about to say it s’jus’don’t! No frufru crapola in this persons coffee, I say nay nay. I like my coffee as it was intended, au naturale. You can take your half-fat, double pump Sorlock macchiato with extra foam and stick it up your “Yeah but....” *humph*
Spell Mastery. If Sorcerers had this Sorcerer players would whine about their class sucking. And if anyone else had it they would be broken.
Signature Spells. The only downside to this is the fact that it’s a capstone.
Yeah, the chances of ever seeing 18th or 20th level are slim to none. The sad truth is that a majority of DM’s hit the end of the Adventure, and decide that’s the end of the Campaign. And the majority of Players apparently prefer it too. But if you do ever get to a high level campaign and can cast Shield and Misty Step* basically as cantrips is awesomeness.
I don’t recall if AD&D Magic-Users could use crossbows but if they could I probably had one. But I know for sure he had a dagger.
and compared to some other casters who have only their known spells, like sorcerers who at 5th level only know 6 spells (not including cantrips) compared to a 5th level wizard with 14 spells minimum in their book if they don’t know a spell they need that’s it. A wizard just needs a good night’s sleep and has 8 more options to choose from to prepare.
The crossbow was the most powerful of all of the ranged weapons that an Arcane Magic User could take. It was so commonplace that it would have been a meme if memes had existed back then.
Not until 3rd Edition. In 2nd Edition, the only weapons a single-class wizard got proficiancy options in were staffs, daggers, darts, and slings.
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"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Spell Mastery. If Sorcerers had this Sorcerer players would whine about their class sucking. And if anyone else had it they would be broken.
I mean... getting it at 18th level is rather stupid, but I'd love this as a Sorcerer. Or any spellcaster, really. The question becomes, though, "instead of what?".
Let's be clear here, Sorcerers don't get anything other than Metamagic from the base class, and it's predominantly front loaded to the lower levels. The difference is that most of the Sorcerous Origins have really great abilities, where as the Schools of Magic really don't, except for War Magic and maybe Evoker.
Personally, Wizards should get Spell Mastery somewhere around 6th level or so.
Spell Mastery. If Sorcerers had this Sorcerer players would whine about their class sucking. And if anyone else had it they would be broken.
I mean... getting it at 18th level is rather stupid, but I'd love this as a Sorcerer. Or any spellcaster, really. The question becomes, though, "instead of what?".
Let's be clear here, Sorcerers don't get anything other than Metamagic from the base class, and it's predominantly front loaded to the lower levels. The difference is that most of the Sorcerous Origins have really great abilities, where as the Schools of Magic really don't, except for War Magic and maybe Evoker.
Personally, Wizards should get Spell Mastery somewhere around 6th level or so.
Bladesinging, Abjuration, Chronomancy, Divination, and sometimes Necromancy are all pretty good subclasses.
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Problem is that preparing a balanced list of spells, which typically is the optimal thing to do, eats up your prep limit really fast. If the wizard could prepare more spells you could experiment more with those extra choices, and afford to end up taking a few duds for the day and still be ok.
I'm not saying remove the prep limit completely but it should be higher so the wizard can actually be what they are suppose to be- a Swiss army knife of different spells.
Wasn't spell prep even 15 minutes per level of each spell, I think it was in 1st edition. So it could take a high level Wizard a couple of days if they cast every single spell.
Sorry didn’t read whole thread , on my lunch break, so don’t know if this has all been mentioned.
Basically wizards, clerics, druids are in the same boat and have to prepare spells. OP, do you think clerics and druids are bad too? Yes they have access to the entire spell list where wizard only has their spell book but wizards could potentially have all their spells too in their book.
advantage wizard is they don’t need to prepare rituals where clerics and druids do (well I know druids do as I’m playing one) to cast them as rituals.
im fine with preparing. I don’t know what might come next so it’s a crap shoot but that’s part of what makes it interesting. A few sessions ago we encountered a flying creature we had to fight. First time for that and had issues until we got it on the ground. So I now prepare Earthbind and haven’t faced a flying enemy since. That’s the way it goes.
and reducing slots I don’t think helps as you become even more useless, a more versatile useless to be sure, after a few encounters unless you take lots of long rests. the example of using spider climb to get to treasure but monster is there and you need to save a slot for magic missile is it worth it. Reduces slots you may consider forgoing the treasure but if you prepared both spells you can go for it no worry.
I tend to be fine the way it is, better than in AD&D where I had to prepare magic missile multiple times or I was one shot and relying on my dagger.
my vote would be fine as is, but add more utility rituals :)
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That’s exactly why so many of the “we know you want to take these but don’t want to waste the prepared spell on them*” spells are Rituals, and why Wizards can cast Ritual Spells directly from their book without preparing them. Wizards are the only prepared spellcaster that can cast unprepared rituals. Artificers, Clerics, Druids... they all need a good night’s sleep to swap their crap out. Wizards just need an extra 10 minutes to get their shoes on and they’re ready to dance. They are the only Class in all of 5e with that ability.
*Detect Magic, Identify, Unseen Servant, etc.
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That doesn’t sound familiar, but I haven’t played AD&D2e in 20 years. As I recall you prepared your list for the next day at the beginning of a “long rest” (they weren’t called that back then). The downside there was getting super hosed if the night’s sleep were interrupted. And most spells only took 1 turn to cast. (There were no Actions, Bonus Actions, Reactions back then either.) But, like I said, we’re talking 2 decades ago. Even I don’t hold crap I don’t use anymore in my head that long.
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Yup, Clerics and Artificers are just like Druids for that. In one of the campaigns I’m in as a player, I have been playing as an Artificer. A few months ago we had 3 Long Rests in the same session. The first day I didn’t have a spell prepared that would have been useful, so the next day I swapped that spell in and swapped out a different spell. The next day the spell I swapped out would have been more useful, so that night I swapped it back in and dropped another different spell. Wouldn’t you know it but that next day the spell I had just swapped out would have been more useful! That last night I swapped back to my usual choices and just pressed onward.
It was a little annoying, but way too funny. That’s just D&D. It made for a funny story anyway. And isn’t that why we play, to tell stories?
(Your Wizard went with the Dagger?!? Crossbow all the way.)
But yes, more utility rituals would be nice.
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I would also posit that yes, sometimes you will misjudge a situation and prepare the wrong spell list and things may go fantastically wrong, but potential for failure has always been one of the things that makes D&D fun, presenting all kinds of roleplay and problem solving opportunities.
Sometimes bringing the wrong spell list can result in *more* memorable encounters as you have to try use the spells you did bring in unorthodox and creative ways.
Not to mention, that possibility of failure really brings into sharper relief those times where you do properly research and you bring the absolutely perfect spell that saves the day at zero hour (like Taako with Phantom Steed after Merle falls off the car in TAZ: Petals to the Metal) and you get to be a hero. Sometimes failure, or at least the possibility for failure, is a good thing from a gameplay standpoint.
I don’t recall if AD&D Magic-Users could use crossbows but if they could I probably had one. But I know for sure he had a dagger.
and compared to some other casters who have only their known spells, like sorcerers who at 5th level only know 6 spells (not including cantrips) compared to a 5th level wizard with 14 spells minimum in their book if they don’t know a spell they need that’s it. A wizard just needs a good night’s sleep and has 8 more options to choose from to prepare.
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Dang it, where in the RAW does it say a wizard needs appropriate footwear as a material component or choreography as a somatic component for rituals? This 5e, I tell ya..... ;)
In the older editions of 2E and AD&D, magic users / wizards were classes a lot of groups wouldn't let new players play because they were so underpowered and the magic system took a lot more player "study" at the start they were often a party liability that wouldn't make it through the first combat encounter anyway. 5e definitely puts the Wizard on a more even keel with other characters, but also proliferates magic across classes (rogues and fighters with subclass options?) so I could see the challenges felt by a new player wanting to be a wizard scholar who gains power through knowledge and learning magic as opposed to a sorcerer who "just does it."
With spell prep, I have my party discuss spells as a team effort. Magic ability could put a character in a variety of roles in an adventure and it's good prep for characters to have a good understanding of "who does what" in certain circumstances.
Some other things to keep in mind: As for the Swiss army knife, I think it's been pointed out that the rhetorical tool of that metaphor is sort of broken in this discussion. Sometimes a Swiss army knife is loaded with regular blade, a corkscrew, a mini saw, a special hook for cutting seat belts, and a magnifying glass ... and when it comes down to it, what you really need is a can opener. In that event, it may not be the safest, could even by injurious, but sometimes you have to make do with what you got. Adapt, improvise, overcome is a good motto for a wizard and DMs should reward wizards for novel uses of their magic.
The wizard is a more challenging class than others, I'd grant, but the proposals that started this thread just strikes me as written by someone who's comparing tables rather than spending some time really trying to play wizards within the parameters written.
Back in earlier edition days mentioned, and I"d be surprised if this doesn't still happen, a lot of magic user characters, especially wizards would have various "load outs" of their spell lists. I like the players who had a set of load outs for meat grinder runs, exploration, social intrigue, etc. But left room for a spell or two they haven't used before "just to see what it might do".
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The crossbow was the most powerful of all of the ranged weapons that an Arcane Magic User could take. It was so commonplace that it would have been a meme if memes had existed back then.
I agree, 5e Wizards really have it made. They may not be the easiest class to play, but if the player plans properly for the day ahead, nobody can outcast them.
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Yeah, but that was only until about 3rd level. By then the Arcane Magic User (D&D2e)/Wizard (AD&D2e) had started to pull ahead. By 5th level they were definitely solid, and by 9th (ish) they basically did everything.
By contrast, a Fighter was basically out of tricks by 5th level and there really wasn’t much point to playing one anymore half of the time.
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Thank you for pointing that out, I didn't realize that. "Ritual Casting" isn't in the "Features" column of the wizard level progression block and I must have missed that sentence about it or forgot about it.
That does significantly improve my opinion of wizards!
I don't play too much Cleric or Druid, so I can't speak with as much authority on them. That said, I'm ok with prepped spells on them, though I'm not the biggest fan. Neither of them are crippled as much as Wizards, since they have other class features and abilities that the player can utilize. Clerics in particular are about as versatile as they come, having so many domains with wildly different themes and features to them. Wizards, on the other hand, only have one real, core, defining mechanic with their spellbooks, and it comes with a huge drawback, leaving them with basically nothing.
As to the point of Prepared Spells being worse in previous editions and we should be happy with what we have now (which I've seen in a number of posts), just because something used to be worse, doesn't mean it's good now. Any activist group in history will tell you that.
why the hell isn't the "edit post" button working?
It was way worse in previous editions =)
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Hm. This thread makes me think "we should go back to needing to memorize N copies of a spell if you want to cast it N times" :)
Im not getting the point of this thread. Wizards went from having prepared spell slots to a spontaneous casting system where they can change their spells known daily to whatever is in their spellbook plus they can situationally prepare more spells since prohibited spell schools were axed in 5e. How is that not a huge buff? The sorcerer on the other hand lost half their spell list as well as 2/3 the spells known and their core identity was given to the prepared casting classes. Not understanding how wizards got nerfed at all.
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And I strongly urge you to reconsider the value of their other class features (all three of them 🙄).
Arcane Recovery. Pound for pound the biggest boost a spellcaster can get for spell slots/LR. Converting Sorcery points cannot even compare to it since it’s better to spend those on Metamagic, conversion is a waste. The only thing that can hope to compare is a Warlock who take, like, eighty seven naps a day.
And I don’t wanna hear about cheeseball coffeelock shenanigans. I know you’re out there random person in the future reading this and about to say “Yeah but....” I may not know who you are, but I know you were about to say it s’jus’don’t! No frufru crapola in this persons coffee, I say nay nay. I like my coffee as it was intended, au naturale. You can take your half-fat, double pump Sorlock macchiato with extra foam and stick it up your “Yeah but....” *humph*
Spell Mastery. If Sorcerers had this Sorcerer players would whine about their class sucking. And if anyone else had it they would be broken.
Signature Spells. The only downside to this is the fact that it’s a capstone.
Yeah, the chances of ever seeing 18th or 20th level are slim to none. The sad truth is that a majority of DM’s hit the end of the Adventure, and decide that’s the end of the Campaign. And the majority of Players apparently prefer it too. But if you do ever get to a high level campaign and can cast Shield and Misty Step* basically as cantrips is awesomeness.
*Those are just my preferred two spells.
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Not until 3rd Edition. In 2nd Edition, the only weapons a single-class wizard got proficiancy options in were staffs, daggers, darts, and slings.
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I mean... getting it at 18th level is rather stupid, but I'd love this as a Sorcerer. Or any spellcaster, really. The question becomes, though, "instead of what?".
Let's be clear here, Sorcerers don't get anything other than Metamagic from the base class, and it's predominantly front loaded to the lower levels. The difference is that most of the Sorcerous Origins have really great abilities, where as the Schools of Magic really don't, except for War Magic and maybe Evoker.
Personally, Wizards should get Spell Mastery somewhere around 6th level or so.
Bladesinging, Abjuration, Chronomancy, Divination, and sometimes Necromancy are all pretty good subclasses.
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