Voice of the Chain Master: You can communicate telepathically with your familiar and perceive through your familiar’s senses as long as you are on the same plane of existence. Additionally, while perceiving through your familiar’s senses, you can also speak through your familiar in your own voice, even if your familiar is normally incapable of speech.
does this mean you are not stricken blind, deaf, etc.... like you are with a normal familiar ability to look through it's eyes?
I ask because THIS description does NOT mention you are blinded when using your Familiar's senses? and it does not say as the Find Familiar ability, it is an entirely new ability, so I think it makes sense that it might NOT cause the blindness, etc...
The official answer is that this does not replace the text stating that you are blind and deaf when using your familiar’s senses. This just adds extra to it.
depends on the DM but the RAW is that you are not blind and deaf, if you were the Invocation would say so... like it does for Gaze of Two Minds Invocation
taking this Invocation does more than allow you to speak, it does supercede the blind and deaf conditions formally imposed so that you are no longer blind or deaf when using this Invocation.
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"A rightful place awaits you in the Realms Above, in the Land of the Great Light. Come in peace, and live beneath the sun again, where trees and flowers grow."
— The message of Eilistraee to all decent drow.
"Run thy sword across my chains, Silver Lady, that I may join your dance.”
depends on the DM but the RAW is that you are not blind and deaf, if you were the Invocation would say so... like it does for Gaze of Two Minds Invocation
taking this Invocation does more than allow you to speak, it does supercede the blind and deaf conditions formally imposed so that you are no longer blind or deaf when using this Invocation.
That is incorrect. This invocation does not specify that you are blind and deaf because it doesn’t have to. All it does is extend the range and add speech. If it was intended to supersede Find Familiar in any other way it would say so.
You can communicate telepathically with your familiar and perceive through your familiar’s senses as long as you are on the same plane of existence. Additionally, while perceiving through your familiar’s senses, you can also speak through your familiar in your own voice, even if your familiar is normally incapable of speech.
You learn the find familiar spell and can cast it as a ritual. The spell doesn’t count against your number of spells known.
When you cast the spell, you can choose one of the normal forms for your familiar or one of the following special forms: imp, pseudodragon, quasit, or sprite.
Additionally, when you take the Attack action, you can forgo one of your own attacks to allow your familiar to make one attack with its reaction.
You gain the service of a familiar, a spirit that takes an animal form you choose: bat, cat, crab, frog (toad), hawk, lizard, octopus, owl, poisonous snake, fish (quipper), rat, raven, sea horse, spider, or weasel. Appearing in an unoccupied space within range, the familiar has the statistics of the chosen form, though it is a celestial, fey, or fiend (your choice) instead of a beast.
Your familiar acts independently of you, but it always obeys your commands. In combat, it rolls its own initiative and acts on its own turn. A familiar can't attack, but it can take other actions as normal.
When the familiar drops to 0 hit points, it disappears, leaving behind no physical form. It reappears after you cast this spell again.
While your familiar is within 100 feet of you, you can communicate with it telepathically. Additionally, as an action, you can see through your familiar's eyes and hear what it hears until the start of your next turn, gaining the benefits of any special senses that the familiar has. During this time, you are deaf and blind with regard to your own senses.
As an action, you can temporarily dismiss your familiar. It disappears into a pocket dimension where it awaits your summons. Alternatively, you can dismiss it forever. As an action while it is temporarily dismissed, you can cause it to reappear in any unoccupied space within 30 feet of you.
You can't have more than one familiar at a time. If you cast this spell while you already have a familiar, you instead cause it to adopt a new form. Choose one of the forms from the above list. Your familiar transforms into the chosen creature.
Finally, when you cast a spell with a range of touch, your familiar can deliver the spell as if it had cast the spell. Your familiar must be within 100 feet of you, and it must use its reaction to deliver the spell when you cast it. If the spell requires an attack roll, you use your attack modifier for the roll.
You don't get to cherry pick some things an Invocation will do and others that it will not... or presume that it covers things not printed or doesn't cover things printed.
If it didn't do anything for being blinded or deafened then they didn't have to include that at all since it's already in the find familiar spell. they say you can see and hear through your familiar at any distance. You don't get to assume they meant you are still blinded or deafened.
Again if they meant for you to be blinded or deafened then they would of said so in the Invocation as they did for Gaze of Two Minds.
This is what makes this Invocation desirable and powerful. You are not blind or deaf while using it.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"A rightful place awaits you in the Realms Above, in the Land of the Great Light. Come in peace, and live beneath the sun again, where trees and flowers grow."
— The message of Eilistraee to all decent drow.
"Run thy sword across my chains, Silver Lady, that I may join your dance.”
You don't get to cherry pick some things an Invocation will do and others that it will not... or presume that it covers things not printed or doesn't cover things printed.
If it didn't do anything for being blinded or deafened then they didn't have to include that at all since it's already in the find familiar spell. they say you can see and hear through your familiar at any distance. You don't get to assume they meant you are still blinded or deafened.
Again if they meant for you to be blinded or deafened then they would of said so in the Invocation as they did for Gaze of Two Minds.
This is what makes this Invocation desirable and powerful. You are not blind or deaf while using it.
You don't get to cherry pick some things an Invocation will do and others that it will not... or presume that it covers things not printed or doesn't cover things printed.
If it did anything for being blinded or deafened then they would have had to include that since it would have overridden the Find Familiar spell. they say you can see and hear through your familiar at any distance. You don't get to assume they meant you are not still blinded or deafened.
Again if they meant for you to no longer be blinded or deafened then they would have said so in the Invocation as they specified for Gaze of Two Minds (which just mimics the ability from Find Familiar).
Find Familiar is the general rule and still applies to wizards and others who gain access to it.
Voice of the Chain Master Invocation is the specific rule that supercedes the entire paragraph and section on how you see and hear through your familiar from the Find Familiar spell.
(otherwise all the invocation does is let you talk through your familiar, not bad but not really worth it)
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"A rightful place awaits you in the Realms Above, in the Land of the Great Light. Come in peace, and live beneath the sun again, where trees and flowers grow."
— The message of Eilistraee to all decent drow.
"Run thy sword across my chains, Silver Lady, that I may join your dance.”
Find Familiar is the general rule and still applies to wizards and others who gain access to it.
Voice of the Chain Master Invocation is the specific rule that supercedes the entire paragraph and section on how you see and hear through your familiar from the Find Familiar spell.
(otherwise all the invocation does is let you talk through your familiar, not bad but not really worth it)
No, it doesn’t replace the whole paragraph, it just amends the range and let’s you talk through it.
Think about it, with 40-foot flying speed and the dash that’s a lot of range for a resource free Clairvoyance that lets you use both senses simultaneously, and with Darkvision. Or a further range if you don’t need it to be invisible since a Pseudodragon has a 60-foot flying speed and it has Advantage to Perception. If you add Aspect of the Moon you can keep watch for miles around your camp all night long. Having a hard time finding the villain who just got away? You become a one-person search party. The limitless range on Vision and Hearing is awesome all by itself.
And talking through a familiar is no joke either. For a Charisma focused character with easy access to proficiency in Persuasion and Deception that can speak through an invisible familiar from miles away.... Oh the possibilities....
It doesn’t need an imaginary extra boon that doesn’t exist for it to be awesome just the way it is.
IIRC Jeremy Crawford confirmed on twitter that Voice of the Chain Master only enhances the usage of Find Familiar and it otherwise works as written in the spell. The invocation only details what is granted by the invocation. You'll note it doesn't bother saying you have to keep using an action for the shared senses, yet Jeremy confirmed that you do.
It enhances what it says (the range of the senses and telepathy, adding option to speak through it) and everything else, like needing to use your action and your body being blind and deaf when sharing senses, remains as written.
Find Familiar is a top-range spell, the Pact of the Chain gives this a big boost with optional choices that bring huge bonuses (don't forget, these choices when being familiars have traits to share things like Magic Resistance with you). Voice of the Chain Master is a massive bonus to extend the range of sensesharing/telepathy to literally the rest of the universe (same plane of existence - not world or planet, the whole plane of existence!) and grants a highly useful extra.
And you say it should also be passive - no blind/deaf for sharing senses? Yeah no. It's already borderline broken.
Given the idiomatic speech used for rules, taken into account context, the RAI and what the rules-designers have said: yeah, I'm agreeing with Sposta on this one.
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Hmmm, I always read that 1st sentence in the paragraph as being separate from the rest. Once the period occurs at the end of the sentence I didn't apply the 100 foot range to anything else. While your familiar is within 100 feet of you, you can communicate with it telepathically.
Then, the next sentence implied to me that the familiar could travel any distance and you could use it's senses. Additionally, as an action, you can see through your familiar's eyes and hear what it hears until the start of your next turn, gaining the benefits of any special senses that the familiar has.
And finally, the last sentence makes me think it applies to the senses but not the telepathy. During this time, you are deaf and blind with regard to your own senses.
Are you suggesting that you are blind and deaf whenever you use the telepathy feature within 100 feet (all sentences somehow apply to each other?) or that you are only blind and deaf when using the familiars senses (all sentences don't necessarily apply to each other?).
As you already said, you don't have to use an action to see through your familiar's senses when using Voice of the Chain Master which means it's always active... so you're always blind and deaf?
This doesn't work for me so I will continue to use it without being blind and deaf. Sometimes even the games creators can get one wrong.
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"A rightful place awaits you in the Realms Above, in the Land of the Great Light. Come in peace, and live beneath the sun again, where trees and flowers grow."
— The message of Eilistraee to all decent drow.
"Run thy sword across my chains, Silver Lady, that I may join your dance.”
First layer- Grants Telepathy and establishes range (100 ft)
Second layer- Grants Senses exchange with familiar while within telepathy range as an action. Also imposes ;sensory deprivation while using the familiar's senses.
Add Voice of the Chain Master:
First layer- Extends Telepathy range to ♾, It still requires your Action to use the familiar's senses.
Second layer- Grants verbal communication while using your familiar's senses.
Telepathy is a magical ability that allows a monster to communicate mentally with another creature within a specified range. The contacted creature doesn't need to share a language with the monster to communicate in this way with it, but it must be able to understand at least one language. A creature without telepathy can receive and respond to telepathic messages but can't initiate or terminate a telepathic conversation.
A telepathic monster doesn't need to see a contacted creature and can end the telepathic contact at any time. The contact is broken as soon as the two creatures are no longer within range of each other or if the telepathic monster contacts a different creature within range. A telepathic monster can initiate or terminate a telepathic conversation without using an action, but while the monster is incapacitated, it can't initiate telepathic contact, and any current contact is terminated.
A creature within the area of an antimagic field or in any other location where magic doesn't function can't send or receive telepathic messages.
A rule does what it says it does. If it is an additional source of information to an existing rule, it does what it says it does. Anything not covered defaults back to the original rule. This is so very common in 5E. Nobody want to rehash every detail, every time, in multiple places.
So the 100 foot range from the first layer applies to the 2nd layer but the blindness/deafness from the second layer doesn't apply to the first layer. How does that work?
Seems like quite a stretch and just applying whatever rules you want, when you want.
Why would one invocation say you're blind and deaf, and not another? Because in one you are meant to be blind and deaf, and not in the other. Gaze of Two Minds says blind and deaf, so you are. Voice of the Chain Master doesn't say it, so you're not.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"A rightful place awaits you in the Realms Above, in the Land of the Great Light. Come in peace, and live beneath the sun again, where trees and flowers grow."
— The message of Eilistraee to all decent drow.
"Run thy sword across my chains, Silver Lady, that I may join your dance.”
So the 100 foot range from the first layer applies to the 2nd layer but the blindness/deafness from the second layer doesn't apply to the first layer. How does that work?
Seems like quite a stretch and just applying whatever rules you want, when you want.
Why would one invocation say you're blind and deaf, and not another? Because in one you are meant to be blind and deaf, and not in the other. Gaze of Two Minds says blind and deaf, so you are. Voice of the Chain Master doesn't say it, so you're not.
But you’re wrong. The telepathy rules do not say you are blind and deaf. That applies to when you use your familiar’s senses.
The invocation doesn’t specify that it bypasses the sensory deprivation, so it doesn’t.
Voice of the Chain Master:
You can communicate telepathically with your familiar and perceive through your familiar’s senses as long as you are on the same plane of existence. Additionally, while perceiving through your familiar’s senses, you can also speak through your familiar in your own voice, even if your familiar is normally incapable of speech.
does this mean you are not stricken blind, deaf, etc.... like you are with a normal familiar ability to look through it's eyes?
Thanks in advance,
~Mad
You are still blind and deaf to your own surroundings. Why would they added ability of being able to speak through your familiar change this?
The invocation doesn't change the entire text of find familiar, it just changes the range for sharing senses and the ability to speak.
I ask because THIS description does NOT mention you are blinded when using your Familiar's senses? and it does not say as the Find Familiar ability, it is an entirely new ability, so I think it makes sense that it might NOT cause the blindness, etc...
Any way to get an official answer?
~Mad
The official answer is that this does not replace the text stating that you are blind and deaf when using your familiar’s senses. This just adds extra to it.
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okkies. thanks
depends on the DM but the RAW is that you are not blind and deaf, if you were the Invocation would say so... like it does for Gaze of Two Minds Invocation
taking this Invocation does more than allow you to speak, it does supercede the blind and deaf conditions formally imposed so that you are no longer blind or deaf when using this Invocation.
That is incorrect. This invocation does not specify that you are blind and deaf because it doesn’t have to. All it does is extend the range and add speech. If it was intended to supersede Find Familiar in any other way it would say so.
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You don't get to cherry pick some things an Invocation will do and others that it will not... or presume that it covers things not printed or doesn't cover things printed.
If it didn't do anything for being blinded or deafened then they didn't have to include that at all since it's already in the find familiar spell. they say you can see and hear through your familiar at any distance. You don't get to assume they meant you are still blinded or deafened.
Again if they meant for you to be blinded or deafened then they would of said so in the Invocation as they did for Gaze of Two Minds.
This is what makes this Invocation desirable and powerful. You are not blind or deaf while using it.
You don't get to cherry pick some things an Invocation will do and others that it will not... or presume that it covers things not printed or doesn't cover things printed.
If it did anything for being blinded or deafened then they would have had to include that since it would have overridden the Find Familiar spell. they say you can see and hear through your familiar at any distance. You don't get to assume they meant you are not still blinded or deafened.
Again if they meant for you to no longer be blinded or deafened then they would have said so in the Invocation as they specified for Gaze of Two Minds (which just mimics the ability from Find Familiar).
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I'll throw in my two cents: Sposta's right on this one, and he's defended both the RAW and RAI well.
Partway through the quest for absolute truth.
Correct, it does mimic it.
Find Familiar is the general rule and still applies to wizards and others who gain access to it.
Voice of the Chain Master Invocation is the specific rule that supercedes the entire paragraph and section on how you see and hear through your familiar from the Find Familiar spell.
(otherwise all the invocation does is let you talk through your familiar, not bad but not really worth it)
No, it doesn’t replace the whole paragraph, it just amends the range and let’s you talk through it.
Think about it, with 40-foot flying speed and the dash that’s a lot of range for a resource free Clairvoyance that lets you use both senses simultaneously, and with Darkvision. Or a further range if you don’t need it to be invisible since a Pseudodragon has a 60-foot flying speed and it has Advantage to Perception. If you add Aspect of the Moon you can keep watch for miles around your camp all night long. Having a hard time finding the villain who just got away? You become a one-person search party. The limitless range on Vision and Hearing is awesome all by itself.
And talking through a familiar is no joke either. For a Charisma focused character with easy access to proficiency in Persuasion and Deception that can speak through an invisible familiar from miles away.... Oh the possibilities....
It doesn’t need an imaginary extra boon that doesn’t exist for it to be awesome just the way it is.
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IIRC Jeremy Crawford confirmed on twitter that Voice of the Chain Master only enhances the usage of Find Familiar and it otherwise works as written in the spell. The invocation only details what is granted by the invocation. You'll note it doesn't bother saying you have to keep using an action for the shared senses, yet Jeremy confirmed that you do.
It enhances what it says (the range of the senses and telepathy, adding option to speak through it) and everything else, like needing to use your action and your body being blind and deaf when sharing senses, remains as written.
Find Familiar is a top-range spell, the Pact of the Chain gives this a big boost with optional choices that bring huge bonuses (don't forget, these choices when being familiars have traits to share things like Magic Resistance with you). Voice of the Chain Master is a massive bonus to extend the range of sensesharing/telepathy to literally the rest of the universe (same plane of existence - not world or planet, the whole plane of existence!) and grants a highly useful extra.
And you say it should also be passive - no blind/deaf for sharing senses? Yeah no. It's already borderline broken.
Given the idiomatic speech used for rules, taken into account context, the RAI and what the rules-designers have said: yeah, I'm agreeing with Sposta on this one.
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Need help with Homebrew? Check out ✨ this FAQ/Guide thread ✨ by IamSposta.
Thanks Cyb3r! I know we don’t always agree, so I appreciate it.
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Hmmm, I always read that 1st sentence in the paragraph as being separate from the rest. Once the period occurs at the end of the sentence I didn't apply the 100 foot range to anything else. While your familiar is within 100 feet of you, you can communicate with it telepathically.
Then, the next sentence implied to me that the familiar could travel any distance and you could use it's senses. Additionally, as an action, you can see through your familiar's eyes and hear what it hears until the start of your next turn, gaining the benefits of any special senses that the familiar has.
And finally, the last sentence makes me think it applies to the senses but not the telepathy. During this time, you are deaf and blind with regard to your own senses.
Are you suggesting that you are blind and deaf whenever you use the telepathy feature within 100 feet (all sentences somehow apply to each other?) or that you are only blind and deaf when using the familiars senses (all sentences don't necessarily apply to each other?).
As you already said, you don't have to use an action to see through your familiar's senses when using Voice of the Chain Master which means it's always active... so you're always blind and deaf?
This doesn't work for me so I will continue to use it without being blind and deaf. Sometimes even the games creators can get one wrong.
Find Familiar:
First layer- Grants Telepathy and establishes range (100 ft)
Second layer- Grants Senses exchange with familiar while within telepathy range as an action. Also imposes ;sensory deprivation while using the familiar's senses.
Add Voice of the Chain Master:
First layer- Extends Telepathy range to ♾, It still requires your Action to use the familiar's senses.
Second layer- Grants verbal communication while using your familiar's senses.
Edit: These are the rules for Telepathy as a language from the Basic Rules.
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A rule does what it says it does. If it is an additional source of information to an existing rule, it does what it says it does. Anything not covered defaults back to the original rule. This is so very common in 5E. Nobody want to rehash every detail, every time, in multiple places.
So the 100 foot range from the first layer applies to the 2nd layer but the blindness/deafness from the second layer doesn't apply to the first layer. How does that work?
Seems like quite a stretch and just applying whatever rules you want, when you want.
Why would one invocation say you're blind and deaf, and not another? Because in one you are meant to be blind and deaf, and not in the other. Gaze of Two Minds says blind and deaf, so you are. Voice of the Chain Master doesn't say it, so you're not.
But you’re wrong. The telepathy rules do not say you are blind and deaf. That applies to when you use your familiar’s senses.
The invocation doesn’t specify that it bypasses the sensory deprivation, so it doesn’t.
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