According to the PHB, every single half-orc in the entire world is completely identical. There's absolutely no variation between them. If you have the misfortune to be born as a half-orc, you are genetically identical to every other half-orc that has ever lived or will ever live. Your abilities, your talents, your life's path, all were decided before you were born by the fact that one of your parents was a human - which is the only species in THE ENTIRE WORLD which has the ability to display even minor genetic diversity rather than being an entire species of clones - and the other parent was a socially dubious pigman with Unfortunate Implications.
Horse poopy. Every Half-Orc getting +2 Str and +1 Con does not make them “identical.”
14/13/15/12/10/8 becomes 16/13/16/12/10/8
8/15/13/14/10/12 becomes 10/15/14/14/10/12
12/10/13/18/14/15 becomes 14/10/14/8/14/15
There, that’s three drastically different Half-Orcs, all with standard array and normal Racial Bonuses. They will all play differently, and are each best suited to different classes.
The first would make a fantastic Fighter, Ranger, or Barbarian.
The second would make a fantastic Rogue, Wizard, Artificer, Druid, Cleric, Ranger, Monk, or Fighter.
The third would make a fantastic Paladin, Sorcerer, Bard, Warlock, or Fighter.
How are they “identical” by any stretch of the imagination?
By that logic a Half-Orc getting a +2 in Int and +1 in Wis don't make them any less unique than any other combination because anyone can have any stat array. Numbers aren't what make any race unique.
By that logic, who needs the +2/+1 anywhere they want? So, thank you for proving my point I guess?
In effect you proved the opposite. That there's no need to get worked up about shifting numbers because they don't matter. Races will still be unique even if Orc #1 has a +2 in DeX and Orc #2 has a +2 in Cha.
In the end it's just an optional way to further optimize characters and there's nothing wrong with that. Maybe if no races got Ability Score bonuses no one would get worked up about it. They should have probably been tied to backgrounds instead.
The way I personally would handle it for a 5e system is to say you get a +1 for the race’s primary stat, and a +1 to any stat except primary. And then the subrace gives you a +1 to either Primary or secondary.
So, for example, Elves would get +1 Dex and +1 to anything but Dex, and then Wood would give +1 to either Dex or Wis, High would get +1 to Dex or Int, Drow would get +1 to Dex or Cha.
That way race still matters as far as builds go, but it is nowhere near as restrictive.
I could be on board with this.
Thanks! I thought it would work too. Apparently I was wrong and should feel bad for it since I was told that was just a compromise that would ultimately just make everyone unhappy. 🤷♂️
Lack of compromise leads us to the troubles we have in our society today. I'm not going to dive any deeper into that, but lets just say I feel compromise is a good thing. You have two sides. The two sides disagree, and that's OK. That doesn't mean you should swing the pendulum one way or the other when you do not have to. Pick something in the middle. The extremists on one side or the other will not be happy. unless you pick exactly what they want.
On the races thing, I want my racial pick to mean something, even if that means my drow has to sleep in a stable. I want him to be better at certain things, or even not as good at certain things. I just want the pick to mean something. I'm not wrong.
Other folks don't want the racial pick to mean anything. They want to pick a race and divvy up the stats however so they can have the character that they want. These folks are also not wrong.
I think your proposal makes everyone but the extremists from each camp happy. My racial pick will make me better at certain things, but weaker really at nothing because I can put that floating point wherever I want. I can maybe get a bit more flexibility using half-feats, and that's meaningful but hardly game breaking.
Meanwhile the guy who wants an orc wizard, can still drop his +1 into his int, and start off with a 16 int and not feel like he's made a poor choice. He can literally play exactly what he wants with any race that he wants and not start off with a disadvantage. Why would this make "nobody" happy?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
In the end it's just an optional way to further optimize characters and there's nothing wrong with that. Maybe if no races got Ability Score bonuses no one would get worked up about it. They should have probably been tied to backgrounds instead.
I disagree wholeheartedly. Stuff like weapon/armor proficiencies should have been moved to Backgrounds. I agree with Yurei about that 100%. But Ability Bonuses I disagree with.
Elves get +2 Dex because of their superior vision, excellent hand-eye coordination, and hyper flexibility. Most likely because of a combination of a greater range of pupillary dilation, more rapid pupillary responses to light and distance, more rods in their eyes for better light absorption and an ability to see into the UV spectrum due to altered/additional cones in their eyes, a more direct brain link to the image (human eyes put everything to the brain upside down and our brains need a microsecond to invert the image for us), more flexible ligaments and tendons, and higher fast twitch muscle response, and a shorter distance between neurons for faster reaction times. Those would be genetic traits.
Dwarves get a +2 Con because of how sturdy and pain resistant they are. They most likely have a more dense muscular structure, fewer pain receptors, and because their bodies levers (limb proportion) are shorter, less stress on them, and also probably more flexible bones leading to less likelihood of fractures. Those would be genetic traits.
Orcs get a +2 Str because they are very strong. That’s most likely not only due to muscle mass. Pound for pound, chimps are much stronger than people. That’s in part due to their muscles being attached to their bones in different ways for increased leverage, and probably larger and stronger connective tissues to prevent the muscles from detaching from the bones allowing them to exert more force, the length of their body’s levers (limb proportion) being different, and the fact that their bodies produce more of certain hormones and other chemicals that genuinely increase their strength, and a better slow-twitch muscle response. Those would be genetic traits.
Thats part of what makes playing them cool.
And, IMO, “optimizing” is the problem, so anything that furthers optimization only exacerbates the problem. “Optimized” should not be the only metric by which a build is measured.
The way I personally would handle it for a 5e system is to say you get a +1 for the race’s primary stat, and a +1 to any stat except primary. And then the subrace gives you a +1 to either Primary or secondary.
So, for example, Elves would get +1 Dex and +1 to anything but Dex, and then Wood would give +1 to either Dex or Wis, High would get +1 to Dex or Int, Drow would get +1 to Dex or Cha.
That way race still matters as far as builds go, but it is nowhere near as restrictive.
I could be on board with this.
Thanks! I thought it would work too. Apparently I was wrong and should feel bad for it since I was told that was just a compromise that would ultimately just make everyone unhappy. 🤷♂️
Lack of compromise leads us to the troubles we have in our society today. I'm not going to dive any deeper into that, but lets just say I feel compromise is a good thing. You have two sides. The two sides disagree, and that's OK. That doesn't mean you should swing the pendulum one way or the other when you do not have to. Pick something in the middle. The extremists on one side or the other will not be happy. unless you pick exactly what they want.
On the races thing, I want my racial pick to mean something, even if that means my drow has to sleep in a stable. I want him to be better at certain things, or even not as good at certain things. I just want the pick to mean something. I'm not wrong.
Other folks don't want the racial pick to mean anything. They want to pick a race and divvy up the stats however so they can have the character that they want. These folks are also not wrong.
I think your proposal makes everyone but the extremists from each camp happy. My racial pick will make me better at certain things, but weaker really at nothing because I can put that floating point wherever I want. I can maybe get a bit more flexibility using half-feats, and that's meaningful but hardly game breaking.
Meanwhile the guy who wants an orc wizard, can still drop his +1 into his int, and start off with a 16 int and not feel like he's made a poor choice. He can literally play exactly what he wants with any race that he wants and not start off with a disadvantage. Why would this make "nobody" happy?
Because typically racial bonuses force you into racial stereotypes. Now, you might want to play a stereotypical X, many players actually do, but it should be a choice, not something the game forces on you.
In the end it's just an optional way to further optimize characters and there's nothing wrong with that. Maybe if no races got Ability Score bonuses no one would get worked up about it. They should have probably been tied to backgrounds instead.
I disagree wholeheartedly. Stuff like weapon/armor proficiencies should have been moved to Backgrounds. I agree with Yurei about that 100%. But Ability Bonuses I disagree with.
Elves get +2 Dex because of their superior vision, excellent hand-eye coordination, and hyper flexibility. Most likely because of a combination of a greater range of pupillary dilation, more rapid pupillary responses to light and distance, more rods in their eyes for better light absorption and an ability to see into the UV spectrum due to altered/additional cones in their eyes, a more direct brain link to the image (human eyes put everything to the brain upside down and our brains need a microsecond to invert the image for us), more flexible ligaments and tendons, and higher fast twitch muscle response, and a shorter distance between neurons for faster reaction times. Those would be genetic traits.
Dwarves get a +2 Con because of how sturdy and pain resistant they are. They most likely have a more dense muscular structure, fewer pain receptors, and because their bodies levers (limb proportion) are shorter, less stress on them, and also probably more flexible bones leading to less likelihood of fractures. Those would be genetic traits.
Orcs get a +2 Str because they are very strong. That’s most likely not only due to muscle mass. Pound for pound, chimps are much stronger than people. That’s in part due to their muscles being attached to their bones in different ways for increased leverage, and probably larger and stronger connective tissues to prevent the muscles from detaching from the bones allowing them to exert more force, the length of their body’s levers (limb proportion) being different, and the fact that their bodies produce more of certain hormones and other chemicals that genuinely increase their strength, and a better slow-twitch muscle response. Those would be genetic traits.
Thats part of what makes playing them cool.
And, IMO, “optimizing” is the problem, so anything that furthers optimization only exacerbates the problem. “Optimized” should be the only metric by which a build is measured.
Careful there...dropping in facts like chimps' being 6 times stronger in their arms than humans and equating that to why certain species inside D&D might be better than others at certain things, well, that could get you into trouble.
The way I personally would handle it for a 5e system is to say you get a +1 for the race’s primary stat, and a +1 to any stat except primary. And then the subrace gives you a +1 to either Primary or secondary.
So, for example, Elves would get +1 Dex and +1 to anything but Dex, and then Wood would give +1 to either Dex or Wis, High would get +1 to Dex or Int, Drow would get +1 to Dex or Cha.
That way race still matters as far as builds go, but it is nowhere near as restrictive.
I could be on board with this.
Thanks! I thought it would work too. Apparently I was wrong and should feel bad for it since I was told that was just a compromise that would ultimately just make everyone unhappy. 🤷♂️
Lack of compromise leads us to the troubles we have in our society today. I'm not going to dive any deeper into that, but lets just say I feel compromise is a good thing. You have two sides. The two sides disagree, and that's OK. That doesn't mean you should swing the pendulum one way or the other when you do not have to. Pick something in the middle. The extremists on one side or the other will not be happy. unless you pick exactly what they want.
On the races thing, I want my racial pick to mean something, even if that means my drow has to sleep in a stable. I want him to be better at certain things, or even not as good at certain things. I just want the pick to mean something. I'm not wrong.
Other folks don't want the racial pick to mean anything. They want to pick a race and divvy up the stats however so they can have the character that they want. These folks are also not wrong.
I think your proposal makes everyone but the extremists from each camp happy. My racial pick will make me better at certain things, but weaker really at nothing because I can put that floating point wherever I want. I can maybe get a bit more flexibility using half-feats, and that's meaningful but hardly game breaking.
Meanwhile the guy who wants an orc wizard, can still drop his +1 into his int, and start off with a 16 int and not feel like he's made a poor choice. He can literally play exactly what he wants with any race that he wants and not start off with a disadvantage. Why would this make "nobody" happy?
Because typically racial bonuses force you into racial stereotypes. Now, you might want to play a stereotypical X, many players actually do, but it should be a choice, not something the game forces on you.
Yeah, I saw that. It's just a compromise that will satisfy no-one, it makes race less significant, but it's still significant.
*shrug*
that's the extremist position I mentioned that won't be happy if they don't get precisely what they want. That person is quite content to force their opinion on to those of us who /do/ want our racial selection to mean something. I shouldn't have to accept his position outright, nor should he be forced to accept mine. You offered a compromise that works. I'll say that if compromise is not accepted, at that point I choose to not care about what he wants at all, and prefer hard racial borders. I'm certainly never going to support what he wants, because I do not like it even a little.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Within 18 months, I am looking forward to telling players, "Sorry, I don't care that it is in the new PHB and considered canon. Your Halfing can't have a starting strength of 16, Drow Darkvision, and Tabaxi Feline Agility".
In the end it's just an optional way to further optimize characters and there's nothing wrong with that. Maybe if no races got Ability Score bonuses no one would get worked up about it. They should have probably been tied to backgrounds instead.
I disagree wholeheartedly. Stuff like weapon/armor proficiencies should have been moved to Backgrounds. I agree with Yurei about that 100%. But Ability Bonuses I disagree with.
Elves get +2 Dex because of their superior vision, excellent hand-eye coordination, and hyper flexibility. Most likely because of a combination of a greater range of pupillary dilation, more rapid pupillary responses to light and distance, more rods in their eyes for better light absorption and an ability to see into the UV spectrum due to altered/additional cones in their eyes, a more direct brain link to the image (human eyes put everything to the brain upside down and our brains need a microsecond to invert the image for us), more flexible ligaments and tendons, and higher fast twitch muscle response, and a shorter distance between neurons for faster reaction times. Those would be genetic traits.
Dwarves get a +2 Con because of how sturdy and pain resistant they are. They most likely have a more dense muscular structure, fewer pain receptors, and because their bodies levers (limb proportion) are shorter, less stress on them, and also probably more flexible bones leading to less likelihood of fractures. Those would be genetic traits.
Orcs get a +2 Str because they are very strong. That’s most likely not only due to muscle mass. Pound for pound, chimps are much stronger than people. That’s in part due to their muscles being attached to their bones in different ways for increased leverage, and probably larger and stronger connective tissues to prevent the muscles from detaching from the bones allowing them to exert more force, the length of their body’s levers (limb proportion) being different, and the fact that their bodies produce more of certain hormones and other chemicals that genuinely increase their strength, and a better slow-twitch muscle response. Those would be genetic traits.
Thats part of what makes playing them cool.
And, IMO, “optimizing” is the problem, so anything that furthers optimization only exacerbates the problem. “Optimized” should be the only metric by which a build is measured.
That couldn't be further from the truth. Elves have Darkvision. Dex has nothing to do with sight. If anything, Wisdom does because of perception.
You know how else a race can be strong without needing Str bonuses? Being able to use Heavy Weapons that small races can't. Having an ability that allows them to count as a size larger for carrying capacity. Showing that a race is sturdy? Being adapted to high altitudes, being able to shrug off some damage, having damage resistances. Showing that a race is magical? Give 'em cantrips. A race has wings? Well surely the only way to represent that is with Dex right? No.
Backgrounds are there to show what kind of training you have. Surely a PC whose spent there whole lives would have an Int bonus right? Or a Soldier would have some kind of weapon proficiency or bonus to a combat ability score.
And optimization is never a problem. The only problem is that people are bothered by it. I love optimization. I also love to get really into role playing. I also love to play races that are really suboptimal despite wishing them to be better (Dragonborn). You can optimize and still not sacrifice anything on the role playing side of things. It's not an either or situation.
In the end it's just an optional way to further optimize characters and there's nothing wrong with that. Maybe if no races got Ability Score bonuses no one would get worked up about it. They should have probably been tied to backgrounds instead.
I disagree wholeheartedly. Stuff like weapon/armor proficiencies should have been moved to Backgrounds. I agree with Yurei about that 100%. But Ability Bonuses I disagree with.
Elves get +2 Dex because of their superior vision, excellent hand-eye coordination, and hyper flexibility. Most likely because of a combination of a greater range of pupillary dilation, more rapid pupillary responses to light and distance, more rods in their eyes for better light absorption and an ability to see into the UV spectrum due to altered/additional cones in their eyes, a more direct brain link to the image (human eyes put everything to the brain upside down and our brains need a microsecond to invert the image for us), more flexible ligaments and tendons, and higher fast twitch muscle response, and a shorter distance between neurons for faster reaction times. Those would be genetic traits.
Dwarves get a +2 Con because of how sturdy and pain resistant they are. They most likely have a more dense muscular structure, fewer pain receptors, and because their bodies levers (limb proportion) are shorter, less stress on them, and also probably more flexible bones leading to less likelihood of fractures. Those would be genetic traits.
Orcs get a +2 Str because they are very strong. That’s most likely not only due to muscle mass. Pound for pound, chimps are much stronger than people. That’s in part due to their muscles being attached to their bones in different ways for increased leverage, and probably larger and stronger connective tissues to prevent the muscles from detaching from the bones allowing them to exert more force, the length of their body’s levers (limb proportion) being different, and the fact that their bodies produce more of certain hormones and other chemicals that genuinely increase their strength, and a better slow-twitch muscle response. Those would be genetic traits.
Thats part of what makes playing them cool.
And, IMO, “optimizing” is the problem, so anything that furthers optimization only exacerbates the problem. “Optimized” should not be the only metric by which a build is measured.
All of this!
Things like armor and weapon training should be part of your background. Ability scores however, should be different, even if it's a fixed 1 point to <insert stat here> and two floaters points that a player can assign anywhere they want. Some races simply /should/ be better at certain things because that's how genetics work.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Orcs get a +2 Str because they are very strong. That’s most likely not only due to muscle mass. Pound for pound, chimps are much stronger than people. That’s in part due to their muscles being attached to their bones in different ways for increased leverage, and probably larger and stronger connective tissues to prevent the muscles from detaching from the bones allowing them to exert more force, the length of their body’s levers (limb proportion) being different, and the fact that their bodies produce more of certain hormones and other chemicals that genuinely increase their strength, and a better slow-twitch muscle response. Those would be genetic traits.
Thats part of what makes playing them cool.
Careful there...dropping in facts like chimps' being 6 times stronger in their arms than humans and equating that to why certain species inside D&D might be better than others at certain things, well, that could get you into trouble.
Have you seen the proportional arm length on an Orc?!?
“Give me a lever long enough and a fulcrum on which to place it, and I shall move the world.“ —Archimedes
Elves get +2 Dex because of their superior vision, excellent hand-eye coordination, and hyper flexibility. Most likely because of a combination of a greater range of pupillary dilation, more rapid pupillary responses to light and distance, more rods in their eyes for better light absorption and an ability to see into the UV spectrum due to altered/additional cones in their eyes, a more direct brain link to the image (human eyes put everything to the brain upside down and our brains need a microsecond to invert the image for us), more flexible ligaments and tendons, and higher fast twitch muscle response, and a shorter distance between neurons for faster reaction times. Those would be genetic traits.
That couldn't be further from the truth. Elves have Darkvision. Dex has nothing to do with sight. If anything, Wisdom does because of perception.
If vision and hand/eye coordination have nothing to do with Dex, then why Dex is the Attack stat for ranged weapons in 5e?!?
In the end it's just an optional way to further optimize characters and there's nothing wrong with that. Maybe if no races got Ability Score bonuses no one would get worked up about it. They should have probably been tied to backgrounds instead.
I disagree wholeheartedly. Stuff like weapon/armor proficiencies should have been moved to Backgrounds. I agree with Yurei about that 100%. But Ability Bonuses I disagree with.
Elves get +2 Dex because of their superior vision, excellent hand-eye coordination, and hyper flexibility. Most likely because of a combination of a greater range of pupillary dilation, more rapid pupillary responses to light and distance, more rods in their eyes for better light absorption and an ability to see into the UV spectrum due to altered/additional cones in their eyes, a more direct brain link to the image (human eyes put everything to the brain upside down and our brains need a microsecond to invert the image for us), more flexible ligaments and tendons, and higher fast twitch muscle response, and a shorter distance between neurons for faster reaction times. Those would be genetic traits.
Dwarves get a +2 Con because of how sturdy and pain resistant they are. They most likely have a more dense muscular structure, fewer pain receptors, and because their bodies levers (limb proportion) are shorter, less stress on them, and also probably more flexible bones leading to less likelihood of fractures. Those would be genetic traits.
Orcs get a +2 Str because they are very strong. That’s most likely not only due to muscle mass. Pound for pound, chimps are much stronger than people. That’s in part due to their muscles being attached to their bones in different ways for increased leverage, and probably larger and stronger connective tissues to prevent the muscles from detaching from the bones allowing them to exert more force, the length of their body’s levers (limb proportion) being different, and the fact that their bodies produce more of certain hormones and other chemicals that genuinely increase their strength, and a better slow-twitch muscle response. Those would be genetic traits.
Thats part of what makes playing them cool.
And, IMO, “optimizing” is the problem, so anything that furthers optimization only exacerbates the problem. “Optimized” should be the only metric by which a build is measured.
Careful there...dropping in facts like chimps' being 6 times stronger in their arms than humans and equating that to why certain species inside D&D might be better than others at certain things, well, that could get you into trouble.
Have you seen the proportional arm length on an Orc?!?
Elves get +2 Dex because of their superior vision, excellent hand-eye coordination, and hyper flexibility. Most likely because of a combination of a greater range of pupillary dilation, more rapid pupillary responses to light and distance, more rods in their eyes for better light absorption and an ability to see into the UV spectrum due to altered/additional cones in their eyes, a more direct brain link to the image (human eyes put everything to the brain upside down and our brains need a microsecond to invert the image for us), more flexible ligaments and tendons, and higher fast twitch muscle response, and a shorter distance between neurons for faster reaction times. Those would be genetic traits.
That couldn't be further from the truth. Elves have Darkvision. Dex has nothing to do with sight. If anything, Wisdom does because of perception.
If vision and hand/eye coordination have nothing to do with Dex, then why Dex is the Attack stat for ranged weapons in 5e?!?
Because no one designing the game has likely ever used a bow. Logically there'd be a Str requirement for bows. A size requirement for longbows (or war bows). And then...well a Wis check to target an enemy, a Dex check to steady your aim, maybe an Int check to account for wind speed.
Short answer? It's a game. Physics has little to do with it.
Elves get +2 Dex because of their superior vision, excellent hand-eye coordination, and hyper flexibility. Most likely because of a combination of a greater range of pupillary dilation, more rapid pupillary responses to light and distance, more rods in their eyes for better light absorption and an ability to see into the UV spectrum due to altered/additional cones in their eyes, a more direct brain link to the image (human eyes put everything to the brain upside down and our brains need a microsecond to invert the image for us), more flexible ligaments and tendons, and higher fast twitch muscle response, and a shorter distance between neurons for faster reaction times. Those would be genetic traits.
That couldn't be further from the truth. Elves have Darkvision. Dex has nothing to do with sight. If anything, Wisdom does because of perception.
If vision and hand/eye coordination have nothing to do with Dex, then why Dex is the Attack stat for ranged weapons in 5e?!?
Because no one designing the game has likely ever used a bow. Logically there'd be a Str requirement for bows. A size requirement for longbows (or war bows). And then...well a Wis check to target an enemy, a Dex check to steady your aim, maybe an Int check to account for wind speed.
Short answer? It's a game. Physics has little to do with it.
In the end it's just an optional way to further optimize characters and there's nothing wrong with that. Maybe if no races got Ability Score bonuses no one would get worked up about it. They should have probably been tied to backgrounds instead.
I disagree wholeheartedly. Stuff like weapon/armor proficiencies should have been moved to Backgrounds. I agree with Yurei about that 100%. But Ability Bonuses I disagree with.
Elves get +2 Dex because of their superior vision, excellent hand-eye coordination, and hyper flexibility. Most likely because of a combination of a greater range of pupillary dilation, more rapid pupillary responses to light and distance, more rods in their eyes for better light absorption and an ability to see into the UV spectrum due to altered/additional cones in their eyes, a more direct brain link to the image (human eyes put everything to the brain upside down and our brains need a microsecond to invert the image for us), more flexible ligaments and tendons, and higher fast twitch muscle response, and a shorter distance between neurons for faster reaction times. Those would be genetic traits.
Dwarves get a +2 Con because of how sturdy and pain resistant they are. They most likely have a more dense muscular structure, fewer pain receptors, and because their bodies levers (limb proportion) are shorter, less stress on them, and also probably more flexible bones leading to less likelihood of fractures. Those would be genetic traits.
Orcs get a +2 Str because they are very strong. That’s most likely not only due to muscle mass. Pound for pound, chimps are much stronger than people. That’s in part due to their muscles being attached to their bones in different ways for increased leverage, and probably larger and stronger connective tissues to prevent the muscles from detaching from the bones allowing them to exert more force, the length of their body’s levers (limb proportion) being different, and the fact that their bodies produce more of certain hormones and other chemicals that genuinely increase their strength, and a better slow-twitch muscle response. Those would be genetic traits.
Thats part of what makes playing them cool.
And, IMO, “optimizing” is the problem, so anything that furthers optimization only exacerbates the problem. “Optimized” should be the only metric by which a build is measured.
That couldn't be further from the truth. Elves have Darkvision. Dex has nothing to do with sight. If anything, Wisdom does because of perception.
You know how else a race can be strong without needing Str bonuses? Being able to use Heavy Weapons that small races can't. Having an ability that allows them to count as a size larger for carrying capacity. Showing that a race is sturdy? Being adapted to high altitudes, being able to shrug off some damage, having damage resistances. Showing that a race is magical? Give 'em cantrips. A race has wings? Well surely the only way to represent that is with Dex right? No.
Backgrounds are there to show what kind of training you have. Surely a PC whose spent there whole lives would have an Int bonus right? Or a Soldier would have some kind of weapon proficiency or bonus to a combat ability score.
And optimization is never a problem. The only problem is that people are bothered by it. I love optimization. I also love to get really into role playing. I also love to play races that are really suboptimal despite wishing them to be better (Dragonborn). You can optimize and still not sacrifice anything on the role playing side of things. It's not an either or situation.
But a race could be particularly well braced just by body type and thereby be able to use larger than normal weapons despite being normally considered too small to do so. A race being strong is indicated by strength, which would also be an alternative explanation for being able to use larger than normal weapons.
A race being innately magical is shown by giving them innate magical abilities. Being more intelligent, charismatic or wise is indicated by bonuses to those specific stats, however having such bonuses can also be a justification for the innate magical abilities.
A flying race may or may not be more dexterous, however better eyesight is a possible explanation for higher dexterity. Dark vision is not necessarily the only way that vision could be better and higher wisdom would be a justification for better pattern recognition but better eyesight is not normally considered related in any way to higher wisdom.
Someone well educated is not actually automatically more intelligent. I have known far too many university graduates of questionable intelligence. Memory is not a separate stat in D&D, but in reality it is a separate thing from intelligence. Learning by rote is also separate from intelligence. That is a general statement and not a personal attack on anyone or any group. There are also very intelligent university graduates.
The more this point is argued, the more muddy is the case for when races should get what ability score bonuses. Both what I said is true and what you said is true. Therefore it makes no sense for ability scores to be so strictly tied to race. Sure a PC Orc may be naturally strong. But maybe that one over there was born weak and made up for it by being charismatic and well liked by everyone. Both can coexist. Getting rid of the ties to races doesn't mean an average doesn't exist for a race or that a PC can't lean into said average anyway.
Elves get +2 Dex because of their superior vision, excellent hand-eye coordination, and hyper flexibility. Most likely because of a combination of a greater range of pupillary dilation, more rapid pupillary responses to light and distance, more rods in their eyes for better light absorption and an ability to see into the UV spectrum due to altered/additional cones in their eyes, a more direct brain link to the image (human eyes put everything to the brain upside down and our brains need a microsecond to invert the image for us), more flexible ligaments and tendons, and higher fast twitch muscle response, and a shorter distance between neurons for faster reaction times. Those would be genetic traits.
That couldn't be further from the truth. Elves have Darkvision. Dex has nothing to do with sight. If anything, Wisdom does because of perception.
If vision and hand/eye coordination have nothing to do with Dex, then why Dex is the Attack stat for ranged weapons in 5e?!?
Because no one designing the game has likely ever used a bow. Logically there'd be a Str requirement for bows. A size requirement for longbows (or war bows). And then...well a Wis check to target an enemy, a Dex check to steady your aim, maybe an Int check to account for wind speed.
Short answer? It's a game. Physics has little to do with it.
As someone who is an archer, this has perturbed me on why bows were keyed to DEX when DEX has nothing to do with shooting. STR and/or WIS(perception in the way of aiming I can see as being perceptive) always made more sense to me.
Elves get +2 Dex because of their superior vision, excellent hand-eye coordination, and hyper flexibility. Most likely because of a combination of a greater range of pupillary dilation, more rapid pupillary responses to light and distance, more rods in their eyes for better light absorption and an ability to see into the UV spectrum due to altered/additional cones in their eyes, a more direct brain link to the image (human eyes put everything to the brain upside down and our brains need a microsecond to invert the image for us), more flexible ligaments and tendons, and higher fast twitch muscle response, and a shorter distance between neurons for faster reaction times. Those would be genetic traits.
That couldn't be further from the truth. Elves have Darkvision. Dex has nothing to do with sight. If anything, Wisdom does because of perception.
If vision and hand/eye coordination have nothing to do with Dex, then why Dex is the Attack stat for ranged weapons in 5e?!?
Because no one designing the game has likely ever used a bow. Logically there'd be a Str requirement for bows. A size requirement for longbows (or war bows). And then...well a Wis check to target an enemy, a Dex check to steady your aim, maybe an Int check to account for wind speed.
Short answer? It's a game. Physics has little to do with it.
Strength to draw, dex to aim. There should be minimum strengths for bows, but you still aim using hand/eye coordination (dex). 'Back in the day' in 1e, there were 'strength bows' i.e. you needed a special bow designed for your strength if you wanted to get your strength bonus on damage. It was still dex to hit though.
I wont lie, everytime I see dex and bow together I want to say to try to draw a 120lb warbow and come tell me you can dump str for it.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Sure a PC Orc may be naturally strong. But maybe that one over there was born weak and made up for it by being charismatic and well liked by everyone. Both can coexist.
That is represented by putting a lower number in Str and a high number in Cha for the weak yet Charismatic Orc.
Elves get +2 Dex because of their superior vision, excellent hand-eye coordination, and hyper flexibility. Most likely because of a combination of a greater range of pupillary dilation, more rapid pupillary responses to light and distance, more rods in their eyes for better light absorption and an ability to see into the UV spectrum due to altered/additional cones in their eyes, a more direct brain link to the image (human eyes put everything to the brain upside down and our brains need a microsecond to invert the image for us), more flexible ligaments and tendons, and higher fast twitch muscle response, and a shorter distance between neurons for faster reaction times. Those would be genetic traits.
That couldn't be further from the truth. Elves have Darkvision. Dex has nothing to do with sight. If anything, Wisdom does because of perception.
If vision and hand/eye coordination have nothing to do with Dex, then why Dex is the Attack stat for ranged weapons in 5e?!?
Because no one designing the game has likely ever used a bow. Logically there'd be a Str requirement for bows. A size requirement for longbows (or war bows). And then...well a Wis check to target an enemy, a Dex check to steady your aim, maybe an Int check to account for wind speed.
Short answer? It's a game. Physics has little to do with it.
Strength to draw, dex to aim. There should be minimum strengths for bows, but you still aim using hand/eye coordination (dex). 'Back in the day' in 1e, there were 'strength bows' i.e. you needed a special bow designed for your strength if you wanted to get your strength bonus on damage. It was still dex to hit though.
I don’t see the DEX at all. To aim you still need to able to be able to know your surroundings while you aim(even if you are shooting fast). This is so you don’t hit anything that you don’t intend to at all. Even when in a line of archers, you should be aware of the other archers are and how far down range your enemy is.
rifles and bows are two entirely different skillsets.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
In effect you proved the opposite. That there's no need to get worked up about shifting numbers because they don't matter. Races will still be unique even if Orc #1 has a +2 in DeX and Orc #2 has a +2 in Cha.
In the end it's just an optional way to further optimize characters and there's nothing wrong with that. Maybe if no races got Ability Score bonuses no one would get worked up about it. They should have probably been tied to backgrounds instead.
Lack of compromise leads us to the troubles we have in our society today. I'm not going to dive any deeper into that, but lets just say I feel compromise is a good thing. You have two sides. The two sides disagree, and that's OK. That doesn't mean you should swing the pendulum one way or the other when you do not have to. Pick something in the middle. The extremists on one side or the other will not be happy. unless you pick exactly what they want.
On the races thing, I want my racial pick to mean something, even if that means my drow has to sleep in a stable. I want him to be better at certain things, or even not as good at certain things. I just want the pick to mean something. I'm not wrong.
Other folks don't want the racial pick to mean anything. They want to pick a race and divvy up the stats however so they can have the character that they want. These folks are also not wrong.
I think your proposal makes everyone but the extremists from each camp happy. My racial pick will make me better at certain things, but weaker really at nothing because I can put that floating point wherever I want. I can maybe get a bit more flexibility using half-feats, and that's meaningful but hardly game breaking.
Meanwhile the guy who wants an orc wizard, can still drop his +1 into his int, and start off with a 16 int and not feel like he's made a poor choice. He can literally play exactly what he wants with any race that he wants and not start off with a disadvantage. Why would this make "nobody" happy?
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
I disagree wholeheartedly. Stuff like weapon/armor proficiencies should have been moved to Backgrounds. I agree with Yurei about that 100%. But Ability Bonuses I disagree with.
Elves get +2 Dex because of their superior vision, excellent hand-eye coordination, and hyper flexibility. Most likely because of a combination of a greater range of pupillary dilation, more rapid pupillary responses to light and distance, more rods in their eyes for better light absorption and an ability to see into the UV spectrum due to altered/additional cones in their eyes, a more direct brain link to the image (human eyes put everything to the brain upside down and our brains need a microsecond to invert the image for us), more flexible ligaments and tendons, and higher fast twitch muscle response, and a shorter distance between neurons for faster reaction times. Those would be genetic traits.
Dwarves get a +2 Con because of how sturdy and pain resistant they are. They most likely have a more dense muscular structure, fewer pain receptors, and because their bodies levers (limb proportion) are shorter, less stress on them, and also probably more flexible bones leading to less likelihood of fractures. Those would be genetic traits.
Orcs get a +2 Str because they are very strong. That’s most likely not only due to muscle mass. Pound for pound, chimps are much stronger than people. That’s in part due to their muscles being attached to their bones in different ways for increased leverage, and probably larger and stronger connective tissues to prevent the muscles from detaching from the bones allowing them to exert more force, the length of their body’s levers (limb proportion) being different, and the fact that their bodies produce more of certain hormones and other chemicals that genuinely increase their strength, and a better slow-twitch muscle response. Those would be genetic traits.
Thats part of what makes playing them cool.
And, IMO, “optimizing” is the problem, so anything that furthers optimization only exacerbates the problem. “Optimized” should not be the only metric by which a build is measured.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
I don’t rightly know. Ask them:
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
Careful there...dropping in facts like chimps' being 6 times stronger in their arms than humans and equating that to why certain species inside D&D might be better than others at certain things, well, that could get you into trouble.
*shrug*
that's the extremist position I mentioned that won't be happy if they don't get precisely what they want. That person is quite content to force their opinion on to those of us who /do/ want our racial selection to mean something. I shouldn't have to accept his position outright, nor should he be forced to accept mine. You offered a compromise that works. I'll say that if compromise is not accepted, at that point I choose to not care about what he wants at all, and prefer hard racial borders. I'm certainly never going to support what he wants, because I do not like it even a little.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
Within 18 months, I am looking forward to telling players, "Sorry, I don't care that it is in the new PHB and considered canon. Your Halfing can't have a starting strength of 16, Drow Darkvision, and Tabaxi Feline Agility".
That is the endgame of this whole thing.
That couldn't be further from the truth. Elves have Darkvision. Dex has nothing to do with sight. If anything, Wisdom does because of perception.
You know how else a race can be strong without needing Str bonuses? Being able to use Heavy Weapons that small races can't. Having an ability that allows them to count as a size larger for carrying capacity. Showing that a race is sturdy? Being adapted to high altitudes, being able to shrug off some damage, having damage resistances. Showing that a race is magical? Give 'em cantrips. A race has wings? Well surely the only way to represent that is with Dex right? No.
Backgrounds are there to show what kind of training you have. Surely a PC whose spent there whole lives would have an Int bonus right? Or a Soldier would have some kind of weapon proficiency or bonus to a combat ability score.
And optimization is never a problem. The only problem is that people are bothered by it. I love optimization. I also love to get really into role playing. I also love to play races that are really suboptimal despite wishing them to be better (Dragonborn). You can optimize and still not sacrifice anything on the role playing side of things. It's not an either or situation.
All of this!
Things like armor and weapon training should be part of your background. Ability scores however, should be different, even if it's a fixed 1 point to <insert stat here> and two floaters points that a player can assign anywhere they want. Some races simply /should/ be better at certain things because that's how genetics work.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
Have you seen the proportional arm length on an Orc?!?
“Give me a lever long enough and a fulcrum on which to place it, and I shall move the world.“ —Archimedes
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
If vision and hand/eye coordination have nothing to do with Dex, then why Dex is the Attack stat for ranged weapons in 5e?!?
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
Bingo!
Because no one designing the game has likely ever used a bow. Logically there'd be a Str requirement for bows. A size requirement for longbows (or war bows). And then...well a Wis check to target an enemy, a Dex check to steady your aim, maybe an Int check to account for wind speed.
Short answer? It's a game. Physics has little to do with it.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/dexterity
Definition of dexterity
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
The more this point is argued, the more muddy is the case for when races should get what ability score bonuses. Both what I said is true and what you said is true. Therefore it makes no sense for ability scores to be so strictly tied to race. Sure a PC Orc may be naturally strong. But maybe that one over there was born weak and made up for it by being charismatic and well liked by everyone. Both can coexist. Getting rid of the ties to races doesn't mean an average doesn't exist for a race or that a PC can't lean into said average anyway.
As someone who is an archer, this has perturbed me on why bows were keyed to DEX when DEX has nothing to do with shooting. STR and/or WIS(perception in the way of aiming I can see as being perceptive) always made more sense to me.
I wont lie, everytime I see dex and bow together I want to say to try to draw a 120lb warbow and come tell me you can dump str for it.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
That is represented by putting a lower number in Str and a high number in Cha for the weak yet Charismatic Orc.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
I don’t see the DEX at all. To aim you still need to able to be able to know your surroundings while you aim(even if you are shooting fast). This is so you don’t hit anything that you don’t intend to at all. Even when in a line of archers, you should be aware of the other archers are and how far down range your enemy is.
rifles and bows are two entirely different skillsets.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha