I will say to those who say it takes longer to look something up on DDB vs in a book....HOW?
Seriously it takes little to no time to look up anything on the site if you know where you are going. The only way I could see it being easier is if you book mark a ton of pages in the PHB, DMG, Xanthanars, and all the other resources.
That being said books are not going away....we would have seen their end if Amazon had their way but it appears print books are extremely hard to kill off.
Just whatever people have on their character sheets that they imported. I'm not implementing one class at a time end to end, its more random all over the place to whatever is the most popular spell, class feature, racial bonus etc that someone has selected. So I look up the specifics on each item.
I will say to those who say it takes longer to look something up on DDB vs in a book....HOW?
Because there are many items that are in the index of the physical books which DDB didn't index at all.
Just poorly implemented and apparently too hard to fix.
I have never used the index or table of contents to find anything in a physical D&D book. Once I know where the thing is, I know how to get there in normally less than 15 seconds of opening the book.
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Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
I will say to those who say it takes longer to look something up on DDB vs in a book....HOW?
Because there are many items that are in the index of the physical books which DDB didn't index at all.
Just poorly implemented and apparently too hard to fix.
I have never used the index or table of contents to find anything in a physical D&D book. Once I know where the thing is, I know how to get there in normally less than 15 seconds of opening the book.
Actually most of the living world can find something when they know where it is.
Just whatever people have on their character sheets that they imported. I'm not implementing one class at a time end to end, its more random all over the place to whatever is the most popular spell, class feature, racial bonus etc that someone has selected. So I look up the specifics on each item.
Ah. I never use the index for that stuff, even in print copies. I just use the table of contents.
On DDB, if you just tap “game rules” things are broken down category (class, race, spell, feat, equipment, magic item), so you can just jump to the right place. It’s way faster than searching the index IMHO. And for something like “silvered” I know that’s in the weapon subsection of the equipment chapter of the PHB, so instead of “game rules” I tap “sources”->PHB->”Weapons” and it’s right around the weapon properties.
If looking for an index, then you’re right, DDB is not the best. But if you already have some general idea of what you’re looking for, just about everything is within 4 clicks on DDB.
Edit: And if you use the DDB digital Character Sheet, almost anything for that character is only a single tap away.
Some people's brains simply don't work that way, Sposta. Which is not an indictment nor a castigation of such folks. They're simply wired in such a way that their first thought is 'find the index' because for decades and even centuries before the Internet became a Thing, 'find the index' is how people were taught to locate information. They want a physical book with a conventionally structured index because they don't think in terms of keyword searches or digital organization, and trying to force themselves to think that way takes time and effort they could better spend just Finding The Index and getting on with their life.
DDB is in a somewhat unique position in that their search systems are digital but their contents are clones of analogue Dead Tree books. They can't build the system from the ground up to work as a perfectly smooth and intuitive lookup database because the DDB Player's Handbook has to be as close to identical to a Dead Tree PHB as is possible in the medium. Which means the PHB on DDB suffers from Wizards' questionable layout and organization skills as well as DDB's systems combing through every book, not just the one book, when a generic search is entered.
Folks used to the Internet's weirdness think nothing of this and know how to find information without issue in that sort of system. To Find The Index folks, it's an impenetrable morass of false positives, red herrings, and frustrating UI issues. Thus why they strongly prefer physical books of the sort they've trained themselves to use for decades now, and why such folks tend to see no reason for the existence of digital tools.
My wish for 6e is not that DTE books go away, but simply that the digital rules are allowed to be the DEFINING rules, and that any given dead-tree run of books is marketed more as a collectible and side option than it is 'The True And Ever-Unchanging Game'.
Two points I'll add. Although I love physical books, I wouldn't be able to homebrew without digital resources. Although the D&D Beyond search function is super busted, I've likely saved hours of time using it to find monster abilities and related mechanics to help me improve my brews.
Second, searching through physical books can be improved beyond an index. I think WotC could take a page from Monte Cook's Cypher System. In their rulebooks, references to related material can be found in side notes on every page, making it much easier to navigate. For instance, if a class ability refers to a condition or other mechanic, a side note could be placed providing a quick page reference to that mechanic.
Some people's brains simply don't work that way, Sposta. Which is not an indictment nor a castigation of such folks. They're simply wired in such a way that their first thought is 'find the index' because for decades and even centuries before the Internet became a Thing, 'find the index' is how people were taught to locate information. They want a physical book with a conventionally structured index because they don't think in terms of keyword searches or digital organization, and trying to force themselves to think that way takes time and effort they could better spend just Finding The Index and getting on with their life.
DDB is in a somewhat unique position in that their search systems are digital but their contents are clones of analogue Dead Tree books. They can't build the system from the ground up to work as a perfectly smooth and intuitive lookup database because the DDB Player's Handbook has to be as close to identical to a Dead Tree PHB as is possible in the medium. Which means the PHB on DDB suffers from Wizards' questionable layout and organization skills as well as DDB's systems combing through every book, not just the one book, when a generic search is entered.
Folks used to the Internet's weirdness think nothing of this and know how to find information without issue in that sort of system. To Find The Index folks, it's an impenetrable morass of false positives, red herrings, and frustrating UI issues. Thus why they strongly prefer physical books of the sort they've trained themselves to use for decades now, and why such folks tend to see no reason for the existence of digital tools.
My wish for 6e is not that DTE books go away, but simply that the digital rules are allowed to be the DEFINING rules, and that any given dead-tree run of books is marketed more as a collectible and side option than it is 'The True And Ever-Unchanging Game'.
Nope....just nope. Civilization exists because of books. Do your history on the printing press. The Internet is a tool. It is a medium for communication. Some of that communication is great used by good people to disseminate useful information aka just like books. Other evil people use the Net to disseminate lies and madness (any of the social media sites). To suggest that everything should be electronic is just plain nuts, and ignores the history of mankind.
Plus, all a book needs is light. You go all electronic, you better pray that where you are playing has super reliable wi-fi, that is free.
The books, at least, only have their own contents. So if I want to look up "human" in the PHB, I *only* get the PHB stuff on humans, and not all the junk from Theros, Ravnica, Wildemount, and whatever the heck other sources I neither own nor want to own.
In that case, it’s still easy to search on DDB since we can just go to the PHB itself and click Human right on the table of contents and then only get the PHB entry for Humans.
I think a valuable thing to take away is that the existence of this discussion proves that D&D is likely not ready to go fully digital (there are a lot of people here, myself included who rely on physical), but also needs to embrace digital as much as possible (as there are people here who clearly benefit massively from good digital tools, myself included).
I think a valuable thing to take away is that the existence of this discussion proves that D&D is likely not ready to go fully digital (there are a lot of people here, myself included who rely on physical), but also needs to embrace digital as much as possible (as there are people here who clearly benefit massively from good digital tools, myself included).
I feel as if making it go digital just makes it not DND anymore. Sure using digital can help somewhat, but going completely digital just makes it not feel like we are actually playing it. As a DM I have to say that if we remove the tabletop pen and paper aspect then DND just falls apart.
I don't see D&D going fully digital ANY time soon. Being able to take your books, dice, pencils & paper anywhere to play is still worth having. Even before COVID hit I was playing all my D&D digitally just because it was easier to find groups that worked with my schedule. But I still miss the experience of playing at a table with folks. And when everyone's around that table, I think the experience would be diminished if we were all starting at iPads.
What I DO wish would happen is some kind of shared licensing so people can buy the physical book and a digital copy on their platform of choice without having to spend twice as much money.
They're not going to stop physical copies unless is not profitable. Why to lose a portion of the market and some profit? Additionally, this would give other competitors the chance to win over the market, in my case if 6e is only digital, I'll stay on 5e or move to another system like Pathfinder.
I have the DMG, PHB and MM in digital, but the rest is hardcover copies. I personally prefer hardcovers to read them fully, with digital I go directly to the stuff related to mechanics.
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I will say to those who say it takes longer to look something up on DDB vs in a book....HOW?
Seriously it takes little to no time to look up anything on the site if you know where you are going. The only way I could see it being easier is if you book mark a ton of pages in the PHB, DMG, Xanthanars, and all the other resources.
That being said books are not going away....we would have seen their end if Amazon had their way but it appears print books are extremely hard to kill off.
Because there are many items that are in the index of the physical books which DDB didn't index at all.
Just poorly implemented and apparently too hard to fix.
I think I have used the actual index in the book all of maybe 5 times in 5e. What all are you looking up that often? I am simply curious.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
Just whatever people have on their character sheets that they imported. I'm not implementing one class at a time end to end, its more random all over the place to whatever is the most popular spell, class feature, racial bonus etc that someone has selected. So I look up the specifics on each item.
I have never used the index or table of contents to find anything in a physical D&D book. Once I know where the thing is, I know how to get there in normally less than 15 seconds of opening the book.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
Actually most of the living world can find something when they know where it is.
Ah. I never use the index for that stuff, even in print copies. I just use the table of contents.
On DDB, if you just tap “game rules” things are broken down category (class, race, spell, feat, equipment, magic item), so you can just jump to the right place. It’s way faster than searching the index IMHO. And for something like “silvered” I know that’s in the weapon subsection of the equipment chapter of the PHB, so instead of “game rules” I tap “sources”->PHB->”Weapons” and it’s right around the weapon properties.
If looking for an index, then you’re right, DDB is not the best. But if you already have some general idea of what you’re looking for, just about everything is within 4 clicks on DDB.
Edit: And if you use the DDB digital Character Sheet, almost anything for that character is only a single tap away.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
Some people's brains simply don't work that way, Sposta. Which is not an indictment nor a castigation of such folks. They're simply wired in such a way that their first thought is 'find the index' because for decades and even centuries before the Internet became a Thing, 'find the index' is how people were taught to locate information. They want a physical book with a conventionally structured index because they don't think in terms of keyword searches or digital organization, and trying to force themselves to think that way takes time and effort they could better spend just Finding The Index and getting on with their life.
DDB is in a somewhat unique position in that their search systems are digital but their contents are clones of analogue Dead Tree books. They can't build the system from the ground up to work as a perfectly smooth and intuitive lookup database because the DDB Player's Handbook has to be as close to identical to a Dead Tree PHB as is possible in the medium. Which means the PHB on DDB suffers from Wizards' questionable layout and organization skills as well as DDB's systems combing through every book, not just the one book, when a generic search is entered.
Folks used to the Internet's weirdness think nothing of this and know how to find information without issue in that sort of system. To Find The Index folks, it's an impenetrable morass of false positives, red herrings, and frustrating UI issues. Thus why they strongly prefer physical books of the sort they've trained themselves to use for decades now, and why such folks tend to see no reason for the existence of digital tools.
My wish for 6e is not that DTE books go away, but simply that the digital rules are allowed to be the DEFINING rules, and that any given dead-tree run of books is marketed more as a collectible and side option than it is 'The True And Ever-Unchanging Game'.
Please do not contact or message me.
There was no castigation on my part, just a difference of approach. Some index, I table of contents.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
Two points I'll add. Although I love physical books, I wouldn't be able to homebrew without digital resources. Although the D&D Beyond search function is super busted, I've likely saved hours of time using it to find monster abilities and related mechanics to help me improve my brews.
Second, searching through physical books can be improved beyond an index. I think WotC could take a page from Monte Cook's Cypher System. In their rulebooks, references to related material can be found in side notes on every page, making it much easier to navigate. For instance, if a class ability refers to a condition or other mechanic, a side note could be placed providing a quick page reference to that mechanic.
No. My books will always be available to play. 10 years from now, I can still play 2nd edition or 5E if I want.
playing since 1986
Nope....just nope. Civilization exists because of books. Do your history on the printing press. The Internet is a tool. It is a medium for communication. Some of that communication is great used by good people to disseminate useful information aka just like books. Other evil people use the Net to disseminate lies and madness (any of the social media sites). To suggest that everything should be electronic is just plain nuts, and ignores the history of mankind.
Plus, all a book needs is light. You go all electronic, you better pray that where you are playing has super reliable wi-fi, that is free.
My iPad can be a mobile hotspot, as can my phone. 🤷♂️
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
In that case, it’s still easy to search on DDB since we can just go to the PHB itself and click Human right on the table of contents and then only get the PHB entry for Humans.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
I think a valuable thing to take away is that the existence of this discussion proves that D&D is likely not ready to go fully digital (there are a lot of people here, myself included who rely on physical), but also needs to embrace digital as much as possible (as there are people here who clearly benefit massively from good digital tools, myself included).
Find my D&D Beyond articles here
Yeah about the best thing to take from this....
Multi format support is important.
I feel as if making it go digital just makes it not DND anymore. Sure using digital can help somewhat, but going completely digital just makes it not feel like we are actually playing it. As a DM I have to say that if we remove the tabletop pen and paper aspect then DND just falls apart.
Do both. Not just one. D&D is about coming together and not excluding anyone.
I don't see D&D going fully digital ANY time soon. Being able to take your books, dice, pencils & paper anywhere to play is still worth having. Even before COVID hit I was playing all my D&D digitally just because it was easier to find groups that worked with my schedule. But I still miss the experience of playing at a table with folks. And when everyone's around that table, I think the experience would be diminished if we were all starting at iPads.
What I DO wish would happen is some kind of shared licensing so people can buy the physical book and a digital copy on their platform of choice without having to spend twice as much money.
They're not going to stop physical copies unless is not profitable. Why to lose a portion of the market and some profit? Additionally, this would give other competitors the chance to win over the market, in my case if 6e is only digital, I'll stay on 5e or move to another system like Pathfinder.
I have the DMG, PHB and MM in digital, but the rest is hardcover copies. I personally prefer hardcovers to read them fully, with digital I go directly to the stuff related to mechanics.