That is a large investment, and that should be enough to warrant the consideration to not double, triple, quadruple, and quintuple charge me for them, just because I want to use them in multiple places that I and my players play.
Or, to explain better, "DON'T PUNISH LOYAL CUSTOMERS BY TRYING TO BANKRUPT THEM!"
I am really trying to understand your argument. How is this any different than say a season pass to six flags not working at Disney?
The other VTT's are not D&D any more than six flags is Disney. Should this apply to all business, or just WotC?
WotC/HASBRO's physical books and D&D Beyond is not Disney vs Six Flags, it is Disneyland vs Disney World, when you buy a Season Pass it is to both, as well as Epcot, Star Wars Galexy's Edge, and Hollywood Studios (all are licensed Disney locals, either directly owned by Disney, or authorized by Disney to use their properties and content for a fee), and all are under the Season Pass, because they all are still Disney, not direct competitors... No, I don't expect you to be able to Play D&D in a Green Ronin Mutants & Mastermind's owned site (despite M&M being based heavily off the OGL), nor do I expect you to be able to play on a Paizo run site nor a Star Wars d20/Saga site (again, both heavily built off WotC's framework), and I especially don't expect to be able to access WotC content in a place running Fantasy Flight Games Star Wars (Very different system, using a different mechanic for nearly everything).
When someone pays Hundreds or Thousands of Dollars to have access to the content, then pays an additional $12-$120 a year to have the ability to use that content Online, they shouldn't have to pay again for every little thing they already purchased. DM buys Planescape Set for $60-80, they shouldn't have to buy it a second time to use it online so their players can make Planescape characters, then a third time to have access to the maps, creatures, and info on a VTT. They paid for the content, they are paying for the subscription to access that content online.
And Now, VTTs aren't other companies, they are Restaurants, Bookstores, Game Shops, Bars, and Community Centers that have paid to have access to the same content, sell the content for WotC, may allow people to use the content in their establishment, or allow people to bring their own in and sit down and use it in the establishment. When you buy a Disney DVD, you can play it on a Sony, Panasonic, or any other brand DVD player, you don't have to get the Disney Mickey Mouse Ear DVD Player, and you can take it to your friend's house and watch it there, or watch it with your family at home, or take it to school and play it for your class, or even have a Community Center Movie Night... once you buy the content, you have a right to use it where and when you want, you just can't go around and charge $20 a seat for people to watch the movie in a auditorium (and, actually, under the right circumstances, you can).
Someone pops into a dead post that is literally one of hundreds of similar posts for their very first post and essentially calls WotC & their parent company a bunch of greedy ******** and argues they should give it away fro free for the umpteenth gazillion time, and folks think they need to answer that? *sigh* Fine.
But, really, they want something for nothing. That is all it comes down to. The hubris and sense of entitlement involved in such a request is not only common and ordinary and stunningly boring, it is something that they'd have to deal with even if they did offer everything for free but still had a subscription. It is just an excuse to bad mouth WotC, and some people are only happy when they do that -- if it wasn't cost, they would find something else.
If you feel that way strong enough, you can justify anything until you are blue in the face. But the forums don't change Hasbro or WotC policy. pulling a dead thread up isn't going to get their attention. It sure as hell ain't gonna change anything.
I am fine with the way things are. I don't feel ripped off by them at all. Which I can say even while I whine about things I don't like. If I did feel ripped off, well...
I wouldn't have subscription.
I didn't complain until I had a subscription... when I was a free player, it was not my place to speak up, it was not my position to take, because I was not paying them for access online, I bought the books for physical use, and the price was fair for ownership. Then, I pay for a subscription, now I discover that I have to buy over $1000 of content a 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and possibly 5th time, in addition to my annual subscription fee, because, despite me having a literal trunk full of WotC Products, that has literal caused me a shoulder injury from trying to carry it into in person meetups for games, I somehow can't have the same content be accessible on a tablet, laptop, or for my online games, which I need to be able to access on
I'm going to flip this and see if anyone who feels they are owed DDB for free can answer.
If DDB is the same as your physical book, so should be free, why do you want to use it? It's the same as the book you have, so you're not gaining anything by using DDB - so why do you want both?
If it's because DDB is providing you with a service and convenience that you do not get with your physical book, why do you think you should have that for free? Do you expect free upgrades to 1st class on flights because you bought a ticket too?
That is what the subscription fee is, the convenience to access the books in digital format... either I pay the subscription fee annually, or the digital format (which costs less than the physical version, because it costs nothing additional to produce, everything that was spent to make it was spent to make the physical version), not both, and if I pay for the digital version, that is it, a one time payment, which I can spend the money to print out and make a physical copy of my own.
If you pay for 1st class, you expect 1st class, not them to rebrand couch as 1st class and say, "This is what we decided was 1st class this week. Oh, and despite you paying for a seat with cushions, to travel on the 17th, first class, to Hawai'i, with a food and drinks... we're moving the flight to... um... how about next year, no seat, just a single lumpy pillow, to New Jersey, a bag of stale saltines, and glass of sour milk. We know you already paid, but despite you paying in full, we decide what you get and when you get it."
The online isn't a convenience, it is where some of my players are. I paid well over $1000 for their books, to own the content, so I can use it everywhere I choose. Then, I started paying a subscription fee, so I could access the content online... not to have the option to buy the books online and still have to pay the fee to access the books I bought online.
I am really trying to understand your argument. How is this any different than say a season pass to six flags not working at Disney?
The other VTT's are not D&D any more than six flags is Disney. Should this apply to all business, or just WotC?
WotC/HASBRO's physical books and D&D Beyond is not Disney vs Six Flags, it is Disneyland vs Disney World, when you buy a Season Pass it is to both, as well as Epcot, Star Wars Galexy's Edge, and Hollywood Studios (all are licensed Disney locals, either directly owned by Disney, or authorized by Disney to use their properties and content for a fee), and all are under the Season Pass, because they all are still Disney, not direct competitors... No, I don't expect you to be able to Play D&D in a Green Ronin Mutants & Mastermind's owned site (despite M&M being based heavily off the OGL), nor do I expect you to be able to play on a Paizo run site nor a Star Wars d20/Saga site (again, both heavily built off WotC's framework), and I especially don't expect to be able to access WotC content in a place running Fantasy Flight Games Star Wars (Very different system, using a different mechanic for nearly everything).
When someone pays Hundreds or Thousands of Dollars to have access to the content, then pays an additional $12-$120 a year to have the ability to use that content Online, they shouldn't have to pay again for every little thing they already purchased. DM buys Planescape Set for $60-80, they shouldn't have to buy it a second time to use it online so their players can make Planescape characters, then a third time to have access to the maps, creatures, and info on a VTT. They paid for the content, they are paying for the subscription to access that content online.
And Now, VTTs aren't other companies, they are Restaurants, Bookstores, Game Shops, Bars, and Community Centers that have paid to have access to the same content, sell the content for WotC, may allow people to use the content in their establishment, or allow people to bring their own in and sit down and use it in the establishment. When you buy a Disney DVD, you can play it on a Sony, Panasonic, or any other brand DVD player, you don't have to get the Disney Mickey Mouse Ear DVD Player, and you can take it to your friend's house and watch it there, or watch it with your family at home, or take it to school and play it for your class, or even have a Community Center Movie Night... once you buy the content, you have a right to use it where and when you want, you just can't go around and charge $20 a seat for people to watch the movie in a auditorium (and, actually, under the right circumstances, you can).
Someone pops into a dead post that is literally one of hundreds of similar posts for their very first post and essentially calls WotC & their parent company a bunch of greedy ******** and argues they should give it away fro free for the umpteenth gazillion time, and folks think they need to answer that? *sigh* Fine.
But, really, they want something for nothing. That is all it comes down to. The hubris and sense of entitlement involved in such a request is not only common and ordinary and stunningly boring, it is something that they'd have to deal with even if they did offer everything for free but still had a subscription. It is just an excuse to bad mouth WotC, and some people are only happy when they do that -- if it wasn't cost, they would find something else.
If you feel that way strong enough, you can justify anything until you are blue in the face. But the forums don't change Hasbro or WotC policy. pulling a dead thread up isn't going to get their attention. It sure as hell ain't gonna change anything.
I am fine with the way things are. I don't feel ripped off by them at all. Which I can say even while I whine about things I don't like. If I did feel ripped off, well...
I wouldn't have subscription.
I didn't complain until I had a subscription... when I was a free player, it was not my place to speak up, it was not my position to take, because I was not paying them for access online, I bought the books for physical use, and the price was fair for ownership. Then, I pay for a subscription, now I discover that I have to buy over $1000 of content a 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and possibly 5th time, in addition to my annual subscription fee, because, despite me having a literal trunk full of WotC Products, that has literal caused me a shoulder injury from trying to carry it into in person meetups for games, I somehow can't have the same content be accessible on a tablet, laptop, or for my online games, which I need to be able to access on
IOW:
Someone pops into a dead post that is literally one of hundreds of similar posts for their very first post and essentially calls WotC & their parent company a bunch of greedy ******** and argues they should give it away fro free for the umpteenth gazillion time, and folks think they need to answer that? *sigh* Fine.
But, really, they want something for nothing. That is all it comes down to. The hubris and sense of entitlement involved in such a request is not only common and ordinary and stunningly boring, it is something that they'd have to deal with even if they did offer everything for free but still had a subscription. It is just an excuse to bad mouth WotC, and some people are only happy when they do that -- if it wasn't cost, they would find something else.
Thanks for being honest and admitting it.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities .-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-. An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more. Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
When you buy a Disney DVD, you can play it on a Sony, Panasonic, or any other brand DVD player, you don't have to get the Disney Mickey Mouse Ear DVD Player, and you can take it to your friend's house and watch it there, or watch it with your family at home, or take it to school and play it for your class, or even have a Community Center Movie Night... once you buy the content, you have a right to use it where and when you want, you just can't go around and charge $20 a seat for people to watch the movie in a auditorium (and, actually, under the right circumstances, you can).
I'm staying out of the analogies, except to say that you're wrong about the community center movie night one. Public performance rights are held by the copyright holder, not by the person who bought the dvd.
I didn't complain until I had a subscription... when I was a free player, it was not my place to speak up, it was not my position to take, because I was not paying them for access online, I bought the books for physical use, and the price was fair for ownership. Then, I pay for a subscription, now I discover that I have to buy over $1000 of content a 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and possibly 5th time, in addition to my annual subscription fee, because, despite me having a literal trunk full of WotC Products, that has literal caused me a shoulder injury from trying to carry it into in person meetups for games, I somehow can't have the same content be accessible on a tablet, laptop, or for my online games, which I need to be able to access on
When you bought the book, you got exactly what WotC said you were getting. A book. (And the implied right to use it to pay the game within, under most circumstances -- AFAIK the question of whether public performance rights cover playing the game in public is a completely unlitigated area of copyright law.)
When you bought the subscription to DDB, you got exactly what it said you were getting.
Everything else you're arguing for is based on a legal relationship that just doesn't exist. WotC don't owe you anything to help you play the game in the book beyond the book itself.
Anything beyond that is firmly in the department of "it'd be nice if they did that".
This may make the DDB subscription not worth it for you. So it goes.
I am really trying to understand your argument. How is this any different than say a season pass to six flags not working at Disney?
The other VTT's are not D&D any more than six flags is Disney. Should this apply to all business, or just WotC?
WotC/HASBRO's physical books and D&D Beyond is not Disney vs Six Flags, it is Disneyland vs Disney World, when you buy a Season Pass it is to both, as well as Epcot, Star Wars Galexy's Edge, and Hollywood Studios (all are licensed Disney locals, either directly owned by Disney, or authorized by Disney to use their properties and content for a fee), and all are under the Season Pass, because they all are still Disney, not direct competitors... No, I don't expect you to be able to Play D&D in a Green Ronin Mutants & Mastermind's owned site (despite M&M being based heavily off the OGL), nor do I expect you to be able to play on a Paizo run site nor a Star Wars d20/Saga site (again, both heavily built off WotC's framework), and I especially don't expect to be able to access WotC content in a place running Fantasy Flight Games Star Wars (Very different system, using a different mechanic for nearly everything).
When someone pays Hundreds or Thousands of Dollars to have access to the content, then pays an additional $12-$120 a year to have the ability to use that content Online, they shouldn't have to pay again for every little thing they already purchased. DM buys Planescape Set for $60-80, they shouldn't have to buy it a second time to use it online so their players can make Planescape characters, then a third time to have access to the maps, creatures, and info on a VTT. They paid for the content, they are paying for the subscription to access that content online.
And Now, VTTs aren't other companies, they are Restaurants, Bookstores, Game Shops, Bars, and Community Centers that have paid to have access to the same content, sell the content for WotC, may allow people to use the content in their establishment, or allow people to bring their own in and sit down and use it in the establishment. When you buy a Disney DVD, you can play it on a Sony, Panasonic, or any other brand DVD player, you don't have to get the Disney Mickey Mouse Ear DVD Player, and you can take it to your friend's house and watch it there, or watch it with your family at home, or take it to school and play it for your class, or even have a Community Center Movie Night... once you buy the content, you have a right to use it where and when you want, you just can't go around and charge $20 a seat for people to watch the movie in a auditorium (and, actually, under the right circumstances, you can).
Someone pops into a dead post that is literally one of hundreds of similar posts for their very first post and essentially calls WotC & their parent company a bunch of greedy ******** and argues they should give it away fro free for the umpteenth gazillion time, and folks think they need to answer that? *sigh* Fine.
But, really, they want something for nothing. That is all it comes down to. The hubris and sense of entitlement involved in such a request is not only common and ordinary and stunningly boring, it is something that they'd have to deal with even if they did offer everything for free but still had a subscription. It is just an excuse to bad mouth WotC, and some people are only happy when they do that -- if it wasn't cost, they would find something else.
If you feel that way strong enough, you can justify anything until you are blue in the face. But the forums don't change Hasbro or WotC policy. pulling a dead thread up isn't going to get their attention. It sure as hell ain't gonna change anything.
I am fine with the way things are. I don't feel ripped off by them at all. Which I can say even while I whine about things I don't like. If I did feel ripped off, well...
I wouldn't have subscription.
I didn't complain until I had a subscription... when I was a free player, it was not my place to speak up, it was not my position to take, because I was not paying them for access online, I bought the books for physical use, and the price was fair for ownership. Then, I pay for a subscription, now I discover that I have to buy over $1000 of content a 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and possibly 5th time, in addition to my annual subscription fee, because, despite me having a literal trunk full of WotC Products, that has literal caused me a shoulder injury from trying to carry it into in person meetups for games, I somehow can't have the same content be accessible on a tablet, laptop, or for my online games, which I need to be able to access on
IOW:
Someone pops into a dead post that is literally one of hundreds of similar posts for their very first post and essentially calls WotC & their parent company a bunch of greedy ******** and argues they should give it away fro free for the umpteenth gazillion time, and folks think they need to answer that? *sigh* Fine.
But, really, they want something for nothing. That is all it comes down to. The hubris and sense of entitlement involved in such a request is not only common and ordinary and stunningly boring, it is something that they'd have to deal with even if they did offer everything for free but still had a subscription. It is just an excuse to bad mouth WotC, and some people are only happy when they do that -- if it wasn't cost, they would find something else.
Thanks for being honest and admitting it.
Not for nothing, for the money I am paying now for months of access to it online... the service to access the same content I already bought is not nothing. There is no service to be paid for if I can't access the books online, therefore I am paying a monthly/annual fee. Why subscribe if I don't get anything for the subscription?
The hubris to think you can just demand money for doing nothing, providing no service whatsoever, that is greed. There is no hubris in expecting to get what you actually paid for, nor asking for either to get what you paid for or be given some other service that is worth paying for. If the subscription provided totally exclusive content that no one could use without a subscription, that might be worth a small amount, but WotC/HASBRO didn't provide that, they don't even provide what they have been paid for (They just postponed the newest book, supposed to come out it 2.5 weeks, effectively indefinitely, so they can force people to get a subscription to DDB and then buy the digital version of the book separately, so the book can be accessed online... that is Hubris and Greed... and was the primer that set of the explosion that re-ignited this post).
When you buy a Disney DVD, you can play it on a Sony, Panasonic, or any other brand DVD player, you don't have to get the Disney Mickey Mouse Ear DVD Player, and you can take it to your friend's house and watch it there, or watch it with your family at home, or take it to school and play it for your class, or even have a Community Center Movie Night... once you buy the content, you have a right to use it where and when you want, you just can't go around and charge $20 a seat for people to watch the movie in a auditorium (and, actually, under the right circumstances, you can).
I'm staying out of the analogies, except to say that you're wrong about the community center movie night one. Public performance rights are held by the copyright holder, not by the person who bought the dvd.
I didn't complain until I had a subscription... when I was a free player, it was not my place to speak up, it was not my position to take, because I was not paying them for access online, I bought the books for physical use, and the price was fair for ownership. Then, I pay for a subscription, now I discover that I have to buy over $1000 of content a 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and possibly 5th time, in addition to my annual subscription fee, because, despite me having a literal trunk full of WotC Products, that has literal caused me a shoulder injury from trying to carry it into in person meetups for games, I somehow can't have the same content be accessible on a tablet, laptop, or for my online games, which I need to be able to access on
When you bought the book, you got exactly what WotC said you were getting. A book. (And the implied right to use it to pay the game within, under most circumstances -- AFAIK the question of whether public performance rights cover playing the game in public is a completely unlitigated area of copyright law.)
When you bought the subscription to DDB, you got exactly what it said you were getting.
Everything else you're arguing for is based on a legal relationship that just doesn't exist. WotC don't owe you anything to help you play the game in the book beyond the book itself.
Anything beyond that is firmly in the department of "it'd be nice if they did that".
This may make the DDB subscription not worth it for you. So it goes.
Nope. A subscription has to provide something. Unless you can say what that something is... what is bought with the subscription is the access to all their previously published 5e products in one digital place for a fee and the ability to grant your players access to those products within your campaign. You can argue that the VTTs are possibly separate, but until DDB fulfills its promise of a DDB VTT, they are obligated to supply that content for access and use on all VTTs to their subscribers. Now, if DDB were to complete their VTT and provide that as part of the Subscription, or the Subscription was explicitly for their VTT, that would be content being provided, and then an argument could be made that THAT is what is being paid for with the subscription, but since no OFFICIAL DUNGEONS & DRAGONS BEYOND VIRTUAL TABLE TOP is being provided, and a fee is being charged for something, the something is full access to the content, or at minimum full access to digital copies of all content that is physically owned by the DM.
You also might need to check the Public Performances Rights issue, because it is a far more gray area. You can actually get away with a lot of public performances under fair use, even charging for them, within certain grounds. See, those rights 1) have to be enforced by the local and state governments, and a Community Center can do things under the oversight of the Local Government, enforcing the 9th and 10th Amendments that supersedes the Copyright Holder's claims. 2) Once Non-Profit and Community Outreach come into play, it is both a legal and public relations nightmare to actually try to enforce the rare 'Public Performance Rights' violations, and 3) Become difficult to define... like the guy who during CoVid was projecting movies on the Wall across the Street from his Apartment and playing the sound through his speakers so his girlfriend and her kids who were quarantined a few apartments away could still have date nights, but in doing so allowed everyone on the entire block to see and hear the movie... public, or private being viewed by people who weren't invited?
Probably a good idea to read what you agreeing to pay for. The subscription service is pretty transparent in what it provides at this time.
Hero tier gives you unlimited characters, unlimited encounters, the ability to publicly share homebrew, early access to new player tools, and monthly vanity items. No books.
Master tier gives you the same, but access to all tools, the ability to share your DDB purchased content with other players, and host games with the new maps tool. Again, no book access.
Why subscribe if I don't get anything for the subscription?
A subscription has to provide something.
Just because a subscription doesn't include books, doesn't mean it provides nothing.
To summarize the conversation thus far, Wizards now offers physical+digital bundles for people who want both. It is impossible to offer digital access for past purchases. There is no such thing as a proof of ownership for the physical-only copies. And if you buy a physical-only copy, then you paid for a physical-only copy, and nothing more.
And a subscription for ALL content would be more expensive in the long run than a one-time purchase of only the books you want. It's not practical for most users and would likely cost at least $15/month (going by streaming service subscriptions).
As this is an old horse that has been beaten to death and beyond, I will be locking this thread.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat On - Mod Hat Off
Let's see if I can explain.
That is a large investment, and that should be enough to warrant the consideration to not double, triple, quadruple, and quintuple charge me for them, just because I want to use them in multiple places that I and my players play.
Or, to explain better, "DON'T PUNISH LOYAL CUSTOMERS BY TRYING TO BANKRUPT THEM!"
WotC/HASBRO's physical books and D&D Beyond is not Disney vs Six Flags, it is Disneyland vs Disney World, when you buy a Season Pass it is to both, as well as Epcot, Star Wars Galexy's Edge, and Hollywood Studios (all are licensed Disney locals, either directly owned by Disney, or authorized by Disney to use their properties and content for a fee), and all are under the Season Pass, because they all are still Disney, not direct competitors... No, I don't expect you to be able to Play D&D in a Green Ronin Mutants & Mastermind's owned site (despite M&M being based heavily off the OGL), nor do I expect you to be able to play on a Paizo run site nor a Star Wars d20/Saga site (again, both heavily built off WotC's framework), and I especially don't expect to be able to access WotC content in a place running Fantasy Flight Games Star Wars (Very different system, using a different mechanic for nearly everything).
When someone pays Hundreds or Thousands of Dollars to have access to the content, then pays an additional $12-$120 a year to have the ability to use that content Online, they shouldn't have to pay again for every little thing they already purchased. DM buys Planescape Set for $60-80, they shouldn't have to buy it a second time to use it online so their players can make Planescape characters, then a third time to have access to the maps, creatures, and info on a VTT. They paid for the content, they are paying for the subscription to access that content online.
And Now, VTTs aren't other companies, they are Restaurants, Bookstores, Game Shops, Bars, and Community Centers that have paid to have access to the same content, sell the content for WotC, may allow people to use the content in their establishment, or allow people to bring their own in and sit down and use it in the establishment. When you buy a Disney DVD, you can play it on a Sony, Panasonic, or any other brand DVD player, you don't have to get the Disney Mickey Mouse Ear DVD Player, and you can take it to your friend's house and watch it there, or watch it with your family at home, or take it to school and play it for your class, or even have a Community Center Movie Night... once you buy the content, you have a right to use it where and when you want, you just can't go around and charge $20 a seat for people to watch the movie in a auditorium (and, actually, under the right circumstances, you can).
I didn't complain until I had a subscription... when I was a free player, it was not my place to speak up, it was not my position to take, because I was not paying them for access online, I bought the books for physical use, and the price was fair for ownership. Then, I pay for a subscription, now I discover that I have to buy over $1000 of content a 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and possibly 5th time, in addition to my annual subscription fee, because, despite me having a literal trunk full of WotC Products, that has literal caused me a shoulder injury from trying to carry it into in person meetups for games, I somehow can't have the same content be accessible on a tablet, laptop, or for my online games, which I need to be able to access on
That is what the subscription fee is, the convenience to access the books in digital format... either I pay the subscription fee annually, or the digital format (which costs less than the physical version, because it costs nothing additional to produce, everything that was spent to make it was spent to make the physical version), not both, and if I pay for the digital version, that is it, a one time payment, which I can spend the money to print out and make a physical copy of my own.
If you pay for 1st class, you expect 1st class, not them to rebrand couch as 1st class and say, "This is what we decided was 1st class this week. Oh, and despite you paying for a seat with cushions, to travel on the 17th, first class, to Hawai'i, with a food and drinks... we're moving the flight to... um... how about next year, no seat, just a single lumpy pillow, to New Jersey, a bag of stale saltines, and glass of sour milk. We know you already paid, but despite you paying in full, we decide what you get and when you get it."
The online isn't a convenience, it is where some of my players are. I paid well over $1000 for their books, to own the content, so I can use it everywhere I choose. Then, I started paying a subscription fee, so I could access the content online... not to have the option to buy the books online and still have to pay the fee to access the books I bought online.
IOW:
Someone pops into a dead post that is literally one of hundreds of similar posts for their very first post and essentially calls WotC & their parent company a bunch of greedy ******** and argues they should give it away fro free for the umpteenth gazillion time, and folks think they need to answer that? *sigh* Fine.
But, really, they want something for nothing. That is all it comes down to. The hubris and sense of entitlement involved in such a request is not only common and ordinary and stunningly boring, it is something that they'd have to deal with even if they did offer everything for free but still had a subscription. It is just an excuse to bad mouth WotC, and some people are only happy when they do that -- if it wasn't cost, they would find something else.
Thanks for being honest and admitting it.
Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities
.-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-.
An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more.
Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
I'm staying out of the analogies, except to say that you're wrong about the community center movie night one. Public performance rights are held by the copyright holder, not by the person who bought the dvd.
When you bought the book, you got exactly what WotC said you were getting. A book. (And the implied right to use it to pay the game within, under most circumstances -- AFAIK the question of whether public performance rights cover playing the game in public is a completely unlitigated area of copyright law.)
When you bought the subscription to DDB, you got exactly what it said you were getting.
Everything else you're arguing for is based on a legal relationship that just doesn't exist. WotC don't owe you anything to help you play the game in the book beyond the book itself.
Anything beyond that is firmly in the department of "it'd be nice if they did that".
This may make the DDB subscription not worth it for you. So it goes.
Not for nothing, for the money I am paying now for months of access to it online... the service to access the same content I already bought is not nothing. There is no service to be paid for if I can't access the books online, therefore I am paying a monthly/annual fee. Why subscribe if I don't get anything for the subscription?
The hubris to think you can just demand money for doing nothing, providing no service whatsoever, that is greed. There is no hubris in expecting to get what you actually paid for, nor asking for either to get what you paid for or be given some other service that is worth paying for. If the subscription provided totally exclusive content that no one could use without a subscription, that might be worth a small amount, but WotC/HASBRO didn't provide that, they don't even provide what they have been paid for (They just postponed the newest book, supposed to come out it 2.5 weeks, effectively indefinitely, so they can force people to get a subscription to DDB and then buy the digital version of the book separately, so the book can be accessed online... that is Hubris and Greed... and was the primer that set of the explosion that re-ignited this post).
Nope. A subscription has to provide something. Unless you can say what that something is... what is bought with the subscription is the access to all their previously published 5e products in one digital place for a fee and the ability to grant your players access to those products within your campaign. You can argue that the VTTs are possibly separate, but until DDB fulfills its promise of a DDB VTT, they are obligated to supply that content for access and use on all VTTs to their subscribers. Now, if DDB were to complete their VTT and provide that as part of the Subscription, or the Subscription was explicitly for their VTT, that would be content being provided, and then an argument could be made that THAT is what is being paid for with the subscription, but since no OFFICIAL DUNGEONS & DRAGONS BEYOND VIRTUAL TABLE TOP is being provided, and a fee is being charged for something, the something is full access to the content, or at minimum full access to digital copies of all content that is physically owned by the DM.
You also might need to check the Public Performances Rights issue, because it is a far more gray area. You can actually get away with a lot of public performances under fair use, even charging for them, within certain grounds. See, those rights 1) have to be enforced by the local and state governments, and a Community Center can do things under the oversight of the Local Government, enforcing the 9th and 10th Amendments that supersedes the Copyright Holder's claims. 2) Once Non-Profit and Community Outreach come into play, it is both a legal and public relations nightmare to actually try to enforce the rare 'Public Performance Rights' violations, and 3) Become difficult to define... like the guy who during CoVid was projecting movies on the Wall across the Street from his Apartment and playing the sound through his speakers so his girlfriend and her kids who were quarantined a few apartments away could still have date nights, but in doing so allowed everyone on the entire block to see and hear the movie... public, or private being viewed by people who weren't invited?
Probably a good idea to read what you agreeing to pay for. The subscription service is pretty transparent in what it provides at this time.
Hero tier gives you unlimited characters, unlimited encounters, the ability to publicly share homebrew, early access to new player tools, and monthly vanity items. No books.
Master tier gives you the same, but access to all tools, the ability to share your DDB purchased content with other players, and host games with the new maps tool. Again, no book access.
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ModeratorJust because a subscription doesn't include books, doesn't mean it provides nothing.
To summarize the conversation thus far, Wizards now offers physical+digital bundles for people who want both. It is impossible to offer digital access for past purchases. There is no such thing as a proof of ownership for the physical-only copies. And if you buy a physical-only copy, then you paid for a physical-only copy, and nothing more.
And a subscription for ALL content would be more expensive in the long run than a one-time purchase of only the books you want. It's not practical for most users and would likely cost at least $15/month (going by streaming service subscriptions).
As this is an old horse that has been beaten to death and beyond, I will be locking this thread.
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