But notice, everyone here uses the system that they feel best encourages the players to play to the narrative. I picked the method I did to make sure they players never had to worry about getting XP, they could be assured that doing whatever they chose would get XP so they shouldn’t have to worry about it. You did the same, just with a different system.
My objections to XP are less about ensuring that characters level up regardless of their methods pursuing a narrative and more about ensuring that they don't level up if they aren't trying to accomplish something.
that, is one of the biggest reasons i use xp.
so i can level them up when not completing the "storyline"
I guess for me it also boils down to the fact that I never run adventures as written, and my campaigns are more of a west marches the players do whatever they want and I adapt the story to what they want to do. Sure there is an overarching narrative, but applying a milestone system to game that doesn't have any clear milestones seems completely arbirtary to me. Does anyone use milestone for an open ended campaign? If so, how do you decide when to reward milestone level gain?
The only real difference between milestone and XP on paper is granularity. Think of "a milestone" as "an experience point," and in this system characters just need far fewer experience points to level up. Players are free to set their own goals and do what they want. Once they accomplish their goals, they get an XP, etc.
This cuts down on bookkeeping for the DM and is especially useful for non-combat experience, which the DMG gives very little guidance on.
Some DMs, like Sposta here, are happy to figure out XP rewards for activities the DMG doesn't discuss explicitly. This is how I'm handling the campaign I do use XP for. But that's a bit much to ask of many DMs; it's easier to just say "Did you do what you set out to do? Cool, have a milestone."
Another thing that occurred to me as I was reading through this thread is that it's not only pacing that impacts these things, but also what the players actually think to be rewards. In my long-term game, again, we don't use XP or milestone leveling; we just level up when we finish an adventure, which is maybe every three to five months. "Leveling up" simply isn't important to us in and of itself. The leveling system is there to provide some underlying structure to character abilities and the challenges they face, but we're not playing to level up. We're playing for the narrative rewards of "making my gang the most powerful in the city" or "fixing my aunt's relationship with her teacher" or "saving the prince from far-right nationalist kidnappers and also maybe kissing the prince."
I will agree that the system I employ includes a bit more bookkeeping, or at least necessitates holding more stuff in ones head.
But notice, everyone here uses the system that they feel best encourages the players to play to the narrative. I picked the method I did to make sure they players never had to worry about getting XP, they could be assured that doing whatever they chose would get XP so they shouldn’t have to worry about it. You did the same, just with a different system.
Oh, absolutely. My point is just that, in your game for example, milestone leveling accomplishes the exact same thing; no matter what the players do, they'll get a milestone. It's just easier to say that the part get one milestone for breaking into the vault (regardless of how they do that) than it is to say they get 50xp for convincing the guard not to say anything, 50 for opening the vault door, etc. etc. You and I like those more granular awards. They're fun to hand out! But that's a personal consideration. Milestone progression gives the players the same sense of "don't worry about doing some specific thing, you'll get progression as long as you're not just sitting around shooting the bull in the bar" and a lot of DMs would rather not think at that very granular level.
But notice, everyone here uses the system that they feel best encourages the players to play to the narrative. I picked the method I did to make sure they players never had to worry about getting XP, they could be assured that doing whatever they chose would get XP so they shouldn’t have to worry about it. You did the same, just with a different system.
My objections to XP are less about ensuring that characters level up regardless of their methods pursuing a narrative and more about ensuring that they don't level up if they aren't trying to accomplish something.
that, is one of the biggest reasons i use xp.
so i can level them up when not completing the "storyline"
i use milestone but with no clear storyline and when they accomplish a significant task they get a level
While I am not against XP based leveling, I prefer milestone by far. Awarding XP for killing creatures only encourages players to be murder hobos, and they make nonsensical choices to get XP.
Not directly. Common definition of murder hobo is killing villagers or orc cubs. Just make it clear that aside from getting 0 exp for killing townsfolk, there are other consequences.
If the party actively seeks out bandits or dangerous creatures, then they deserve to gain combat exp. Telling them they can't go looking for trouble is bad form.
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"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
I am now back to using Milestone. I've found that with campaigns that go a long time, keeping track of XP on character sheets will wear through the paper from all of the writing and erasing. Also, it's just easier and more fun for my group to level up because the DM said so, not because some numbers on the sheet said so (yes, I know, the DM controls those, but the most common way to get XP is from killing monsters, but CR is not a good way of judging how difficult combat is. A party that kills a troll at level 2 on their own should get more of a reward for killing it than a level 5 party would.)
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We use generic XP- you add up all of the XP from the entire session, and split it between everyone. It is the easiest and most fun method we have found. Having actually played a game where we were 3 levels apart, I can say it is NOT fun. Our system allows us to still have the fun of keeping track of XP, and having a totally balanced party. It also allows you to reward roleplay much easier than Milestone
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“I will take responsibility for what I have done. [...] If must fall, I will rise each time a better man.” ― Brandon Sanderson, Oathbringer.
We've taken turns between three of us being dm for different campaigns, and we all use milestone. It makes it easier for us to track.
As for absences, we tend to keep people the same level unless the miss a lot of critical sessions. We just say they were off doing... stuff... and when they show up, we resume with minimal discussion. While the person is gone, though, we do try to text them to figure out what they are doing, and perhaps rp it out a bit.
The biggest punishment for missing a session is that the player doesn't have a good idea of what's going on and may miss out on cool items or story elements. We use custom trinkets as rewards. Doesn't affect combat power (except to a very creative player), but gives more rp options.
My group are all graveyard workers (12 hour shifts) in their early 30's to early 40's. We all know how hard it is scheduling family life, appointments, etc., so we understand people missing out.
Having said that, 2020 has been brutal to some of us, and we've canceled one rp heavy game we were only 2 or 3 sessions into. The other one (with a different mix of coworkers) has been on hold for months due to the dm's situation.
I am now back to using Milestone. I've found that with campaigns that go a long time, keeping track of XP on character sheets will wear through the paper from all of the writing and erasing. Also, it's just easier and more fun for my group to level up because the DM said so, not because some numbers on the sheet said so (yes, I know, the DM controls those, but the most common way to get XP is from killing monsters, but CR is not a good way of judging how difficult combat is. A party that kills a troll at level 2 on their own should get more of a reward for killing it than a level 5 party would.)
XP does that, if a party of 5 kill a troll they get 360 XP each, for a level 2 character that gets them over half way to level 3, for a level 5 character it gets them less than 5% of the way to level 6.
However where the XP v combat difficulty breaks down is with simultanious combat and rests. If a party of 5 kill a troll, take a long rest, kill another troll take anopther long rest and so on they might kill 5 trolls in a session with no difficulty, don't allow rests between combats it becomes more difficult and have them fight 5 trolls at the same time would be virtually impossible. Also some monsters are much more difficult in combat than others of the same CR.
I am (more than a little) skewed towards using XP because it's what I'm used to. I am doing a PBP campaign where I'll going to do Milestone, with little bits of levels for creativeness. But with XP, you can award it for cleverness (grappling a lich in a area of silence, for one extreme example)
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Rogue Shadow, the DM (and occasional) PC with schemes of inventive thinking
I am (more than a little) skewed towards using XP because it's what I'm used to. I am doing a PBP campaign where I'll going to do Milestone, with little bits of levels for creativeness. But with XP, you can award it for cleverness (grappling a lich in a area of silence, for one extreme example)
And do you really feel that you need to reward the player through a small bonus to his character ? Doesn't the fact that he was clever and successful, and that he will be remembered for the fun that brought the game make it enough of a reward ?
Not to me. To me, that player deserves a little extra.
I am (more than a little) skewed towards using XP because it's what I'm used to. I am doing a PBP campaign where I'll going to do Milestone, with little bits of levels for creativeness. But with XP, you can award it for cleverness (grappling a lich in a area of silence, for one extreme example)
And do you really feel that you need to reward the player through a small bonus to his character ? Doesn't the fact that he was clever and successful, and that he will be remembered for the fun that brought the game make it enough of a reward ?
Not to me. To me, that player deserves a little extra.
That is of course up to you and your table. At ours, as players, we would honestly feel demeaned by a pat on the head from a DM for playing "well", exactly the same as, as DM, we would not feel comfortable telling a fellow player that he deserves a little extra for buttering us up. Everyone around the table has inspiration to distribute to anyone else, and this is frequently used when something astounding is done, but it can go to the DM as well as to the players. That being said, at our tables, we have a majority of players who are also DMs...
It isn’t about buttering up the DM. It’s about acknowledging outstanding cleverness.
And I don’t use the Inspiration mechanic at all.
In the group I am currently DMing for, 4/5 of us are DMs.
Given that 5E is designed for relatively fast leveling up, there's no longer any means of XP loss, and all classes use the same experience table, I don't see getting minor XP boosts to be nearly as much incentive as they used to be.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
I don't know that I would give XP out for RP, even if there were no inspiration mechanic. In Champions you give XP out for RP, and I always did but... I know for a fact there was one player who did extra RPing just to get XP for it, not because he wanted to RP. I'm not sure that's the right way to get people to RP.
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WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
I am now back to using Milestone. I've found that with campaigns that go a long time, keeping track of XP on character sheets will wear through the paper from all of the writing and erasing. Also, it's just easier and more fun for my group to level up because the DM said so, not because some numbers on the sheet said so (yes, I know, the DM controls those, but the most common way to get XP is from killing monsters, but CR is not a good way of judging how difficult combat is. A party that kills a troll at level 2 on their own should get more of a reward for killing it than a level 5 party would.)
XP does that, if a party of 5 kill a troll they get 360 XP each, for a level 2 character that gets them over half way to level 3, for a level 5 character it gets them less than 5% of the way to level 6.
However where the XP v combat difficulty breaks down is with simultanious combat and rests. If a party of 5 kill a troll, take a long rest, kill another troll take anopther long rest and so on they might kill 5 trolls in a session with no difficulty, don't allow rests between combats it becomes more difficult and have them fight 5 trolls at the same time would be virtually impossible. Also some monsters are much more difficult in combat than others of the same CR.
Yes, I am aware of that, but I don't like the fact that leveling up is dependent of a few numbers that the game designers made up. Sure, the same amount of XP at lower levels does technically "reward" lower level players than it would at higher levels, but CR isn't accurate a lot of the time, and there is no mechanic in D&D 5e that allows a party that nearly died to get more XP for defeating a monster than a party that barely took 5 damage.
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Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
I feel like sandbox-style campaigns are best with XP growth but you gotta get the right amount of challenge out of it or they'll just farm it. I know I would.
Milestone for adventure campaigns or story-driven ones.
there is no mechanic in D&D 5e that allows a party that nearly died to get more XP for defeating a monster than a party that barely took 5 damage.
Why should they? Why should that party get extra credit for not doing as well as the other party? That would be horse poopy.
Because, IMO, the harder the challenge you overcome, the more you learn from it and the more "experience" you gain for later situations. Obviously, if their having a more difficult time is their fault or the fault of the dice (by running into traps, failing multiple saving throws and attack rolls, choosing to use their powerful features and spells against minions, etc), they obviously shouldn't get "extra credit," but a party who used their enginuity to pull out of a situation that was almost a TPK because of environmental factors, monster positioning and ambushes, and other similar situations should be more rewarding than a party just completely dominating the combat like it was no problem.
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Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
there is no mechanic in D&D 5e that allows a party that nearly died to get more XP for defeating a monster than a party that barely took 5 damage.
Why should they? Why should that party get extra credit for not doing as well as the other party? That would be horse poopy.
Because, IMO, the harder the challenge you overcome, the more you learn from it and the more "experience" you gain for later situations. Obviously, if their having a more difficult time is their fault or the fault of the dice (by running into traps, failing multiple saving throws and attack rolls, choosing to use their powerful features and spells against minions, etc), they obviously shouldn't get "extra credit," but a party who used their enginuity to pull out of a situation that was almost a TPK because of environmental factors, monster positioning and ambushes, and other similar situations should be more rewarding than a party just completely dominating the combat like it was no problem.
If they fought the same opponent, then no, they don’t. It shouldn’t matter how hard the fight was, only how strong the opponent was.
there is no mechanic in D&D 5e that allows a party that nearly died to get more XP for defeating a monster than a party that barely took 5 damage.
Why should they? Why should that party get extra credit for not doing as well as the other party? That would be horse poopy.
Because, IMO, the harder the challenge you overcome, the more you learn from it and the more "experience" you gain for later situations. Obviously, if their having a more difficult time is their fault or the fault of the dice (by running into traps, failing multiple saving throws and attack rolls, choosing to use their powerful features and spells against minions, etc), they obviously shouldn't get "extra credit," but a party who used their enginuity to pull out of a situation that was almost a TPK because of environmental factors, monster positioning and ambushes, and other similar situations should be more rewarding than a party just completely dominating the combat like it was no problem.
If they fought the same opponent, then no, they don’t. It shouldn’t matter how hard the fight was, only how strong the opponent was.
But, don't higher CR monsters give more XP because the fight was more difficult? I don't see why only overcoming monsters should give XP, and not overcoming deadly environmental effects.
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Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
that, is one of the biggest reasons i use xp.
so i can level them up when not completing the "storyline"
I am an average mathematics enjoyer.
>Extended Signature<
Oh, absolutely. My point is just that, in your game for example, milestone leveling accomplishes the exact same thing; no matter what the players do, they'll get a milestone. It's just easier to say that the part get one milestone for breaking into the vault (regardless of how they do that) than it is to say they get 50xp for convincing the guard not to say anything, 50 for opening the vault door, etc. etc. You and I like those more granular awards. They're fun to hand out! But that's a personal consideration. Milestone progression gives the players the same sense of "don't worry about doing some specific thing, you'll get progression as long as you're not just sitting around shooting the bull in the bar" and a lot of DMs would rather not think at that very granular level.
i use milestone but with no clear storyline and when they accomplish a significant task they get a level
I am leader of the yep cult:https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/off-topic/adohands-kitchen/82135-yep-cult Pronouns are she/her
Not directly. Common definition of murder hobo is killing villagers or orc cubs. Just make it clear that aside from getting 0 exp for killing townsfolk, there are other consequences.
If the party actively seeks out bandits or dangerous creatures, then they deserve to gain combat exp. Telling them they can't go looking for trouble is bad form.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
I am now back to using Milestone. I've found that with campaigns that go a long time, keeping track of XP on character sheets will wear through the paper from all of the writing and erasing. Also, it's just easier and more fun for my group to level up because the DM said so, not because some numbers on the sheet said so (yes, I know, the DM controls those, but the most common way to get XP is from killing monsters, but CR is not a good way of judging how difficult combat is. A party that kills a troll at level 2 on their own should get more of a reward for killing it than a level 5 party would.)
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
We use generic XP- you add up all of the XP from the entire session, and split it between everyone. It is the easiest and most fun method we have found. Having actually played a game where we were 3 levels apart, I can say it is NOT fun. Our system allows us to still have the fun of keeping track of XP, and having a totally balanced party. It also allows you to reward roleplay much easier than Milestone
“I will take responsibility for what I have done. [...] If must fall, I will rise each time a better man.” ― Brandon Sanderson, Oathbringer.
We've taken turns between three of us being dm for different campaigns, and we all use milestone. It makes it easier for us to track.
As for absences, we tend to keep people the same level unless the miss a lot of critical sessions. We just say they were off doing... stuff... and when they show up, we resume with minimal discussion. While the person is gone, though, we do try to text them to figure out what they are doing, and perhaps rp it out a bit.
The biggest punishment for missing a session is that the player doesn't have a good idea of what's going on and may miss out on cool items or story elements. We use custom trinkets as rewards. Doesn't affect combat power (except to a very creative player), but gives more rp options.
My group are all graveyard workers (12 hour shifts) in their early 30's to early 40's. We all know how hard it is scheduling family life, appointments, etc., so we understand people missing out.
Having said that, 2020 has been brutal to some of us, and we've canceled one rp heavy game we were only 2 or 3 sessions into. The other one (with a different mix of coworkers) has been on hold for months due to the dm's situation.
XP does that, if a party of 5 kill a troll they get 360 XP each, for a level 2 character that gets them over half way to level 3, for a level 5 character it gets them less than 5% of the way to level 6.
However where the XP v combat difficulty breaks down is with simultanious combat and rests. If a party of 5 kill a troll, take a long rest, kill another troll take anopther long rest and so on they might kill 5 trolls in a session with no difficulty, don't allow rests between combats it becomes more difficult and have them fight 5 trolls at the same time would be virtually impossible. Also some monsters are much more difficult in combat than others of the same CR.
I am (more than a little) skewed towards using XP because it's what I'm used to. I am doing a PBP campaign where I'll going to do Milestone, with little bits of levels for creativeness. But with XP, you can award it for cleverness (grappling a lich in a area of silence, for one extreme example)
Rogue Shadow, the DM (and occasional) PC with schemes of inventive thinking
Not to me. To me, that player deserves a little extra.
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It isn’t about buttering up the DM. It’s about acknowledging outstanding cleverness.
And I don’t use the Inspiration mechanic at all.
In the group I am currently DMing for, 4/5 of us are DMs.
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Given that 5E is designed for relatively fast leveling up, there's no longer any means of XP loss, and all classes use the same experience table, I don't see getting minor XP boosts to be nearly as much incentive as they used to be.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Thank you for yet again telling me I D&D wrong because we should be doing it your way instead.
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I don't know that I would give XP out for RP, even if there were no inspiration mechanic. In Champions you give XP out for RP, and I always did but... I know for a fact there was one player who did extra RPing just to get XP for it, not because he wanted to RP. I'm not sure that's the right way to get people to RP.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
Yes, I am aware of that, but I don't like the fact that leveling up is dependent of a few numbers that the game designers made up. Sure, the same amount of XP at lower levels does technically "reward" lower level players than it would at higher levels, but CR isn't accurate a lot of the time, and there is no mechanic in D&D 5e that allows a party that nearly died to get more XP for defeating a monster than a party that barely took 5 damage.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
I feel like sandbox-style campaigns are best with XP growth but you gotta get the right amount of challenge out of it or they'll just farm it. I know I would.
Milestone for adventure campaigns or story-driven ones.
Why should they? Why should that party get extra credit for not doing as well as the other party? That would be horse poopy.
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Because, IMO, the harder the challenge you overcome, the more you learn from it and the more "experience" you gain for later situations. Obviously, if their having a more difficult time is their fault or the fault of the dice (by running into traps, failing multiple saving throws and attack rolls, choosing to use their powerful features and spells against minions, etc), they obviously shouldn't get "extra credit," but a party who used their enginuity to pull out of a situation that was almost a TPK because of environmental factors, monster positioning and ambushes, and other similar situations should be more rewarding than a party just completely dominating the combat like it was no problem.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
If they fought the same opponent, then no, they don’t. It shouldn’t matter how hard the fight was, only how strong the opponent was.
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But, don't higher CR monsters give more XP because the fight was more difficult? I don't see why only overcoming monsters should give XP, and not overcoming deadly environmental effects.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms