How long have you guys played and how many times have you had a tpk?
Basically I have a guy who told me he had been playing for 30 years and had only one TPK. Aside from my game where we have done it twice.
I am a gm, although I am knowledgeable of the rules, I struggle with the finer points of game balance. The player is upset at me thinking that I purposely tpk the party so that the other players can play with thier new characters.
This is not true at all. Here's what happened. (lvl 3) LMoP. Thundertree. They caused a loud explosion near the dragon tower. Then after talking to the druid they went straight to it. I played it as the dragon knew he was there and was waiting for them. They opened the door and breath attack. Roll initiative. Dragon rolled high and rolled a 5 on his breath attack. Breath attack TPK.
There was a misunderstanding of me not realizing the the wizard was using his owl to try to see the top of the tower beforehand and that it came across as the druid would only give directions to the cragmaw castle if they got rid of the dragon. I thought I had said it was the wave echo cave only. I also asked if they wanted a do over. Everyone said no. Now weeks later he is angry and has decided to leave.
Tldr: 30 year veteran accuses me of purposely TPK and says he had only one other TPK in his life. Is this normal?
For what it's worth, I think if someone has been playing this game for 30 years they should be old enough and mature enough by now to be able to accept the occasional adversity, even if it is the result of a simple misunderstanding. I've been playing D&D off and on since Christmas of 1980 (or was it 81?). I've seen a bunch of TPKs. It happens. Some TPKs happen because the players just aren't careful enough. Some happen because the DM misjudged the party's capabilities. Some happen just because fate p!ssed on your dice that morning. It's a game. Nobody got hurt. Make a new character, take another chance.
Don't sweat it.
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Tayn of Darkwood. Lvl 10 human Life Cleric of Lathander. Retired.
Ikram Sahir ibn Malik al-Sayyid Ra'ad, Second Son of the House of Ra'ad, Defender of the Burning Sands. Lvl 9 Brass Dragonborn Sorcerer + Greater Fire Elemental Devil.
Viktor Gavriil. Lvl 20 White Dragonborn Grave Cleric, of Kurgan the God of Death.
I haven't had a TPK since 4th Edition, and that was because the GM I was playing with was a self-admitted jerk who would throw challenges meant for 5 well-equipped characters at a party of 3 under-equipped characters.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
I started playing in the mid 1980's and have never had a tpk. There have been times where it was very close, and several characters died in an encounter, but not a tpk. That said Lost Mines is an introductory game for new players. Having them face a dragon at level 3 was poor adventure design. I have been through it twice with 2 different groups since lockdown.
The first was with a group of experienced players and they did all the side missions first so had reached level 4. When that group attacked we did it quietly, had the element of surprise, and the first action of the first round - while the dragon was still asleep - was to hit it with a fireball using a scroll that had been found. It was very close but the group actually killed the dragon.
The second group were all brand new players except for me and didn't do any of the other side quests, hadn't learnt any tactics other than charge. They went straight to the dragon tower, used thunderwave on some spiders outside and then ran straight in. It got messy very fast. 1 character died outright with the first breath weapon (21 hitpoints and they failed the save taking 42 damage). Others got badly injured, one player actually heeded my multiple warnings and followed my tactics of keeping spread out and attacking from range, our two characters were the only ones that didn't come very close to dying. Realistically that should have been my first tpk but the GM went really easy because they were brand new players.
We've been playing 17 sessions. Not a single death yet, and they are level 5. At this point I would say a TPK is unlikely unless they take on something WAY bigger than they can chew. Possible, but much less likely than when they were level 1-4.
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WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
I DM for almost a year now and almost did TPK twice in one week.
My first group found a venom troll (4 players 6 lvl each) and that troll killed two party members... well one was killed because other player attacked the troll that was right next to his unconscious body with 2 failed death saves. Two others just fled. My second group was fighting Cryovain, the dragon from dragon of icespire peak. I got him maximum hp that young white dragon could get because it was supposed to be 4 vs 1. 4 PCs, 6th level. Before that battle they fought him in the wild. White dragons are almost like animals in dnd. Now they were in icespire hold, dragon's lair. They found that 2nd group of evil veterans and failed insight check, my players thought they are gonna help them but that wasn't what was going to happen. They went to that damn roof and veterans woke up the dragon. Their plan was simple - they'll kill party or the dragon, whoever won the battle. I was really lucky that day and I could use my breath 3 times in a row (my rolls were public, they knew). I managed to down three players and then dragon attacked the veterans. Cleric got nat20 on death saving throw, they had a lot of potions. They managed to heal while dragon was fighting evil npcs. After that dragon fought them again. Almost all got downed, they had really bad rolls and some almost died but Tymora protected them from perma death thanks to everything they did to people in that area. Barbarian managed to kill the Cryovain while having like 5 hp.
Total Party Kill as in all the characters are down and Something has to happen to bring them back into the game? Yup. That has happened. The DM usually said "oops" and either ret-conned whatever just flattened everyone, or created some new story element to save us all and bring us back from the brink.
Total Party Kill as in "Everyone roll up a new character"? Nope. Not once. Not in decades of gaming. In a game where you can actually justify having a god send aid and assistance should you be unable to come up with anything else, there is no excuse for just ending the game with a TPK and starting a new one.
Total Party Kill as in all the characters are down and Something has to happen to bring them back into the game? Yup. That has happened. The DM usually said "oops" and either ret-conned whatever just flattened everyone, or created some new story element to save us all and bring us back from the brink.
Total Party Kill as in "Everyone roll up a new character"? Nope. Not once. Not in decades of gaming. In a game where you can actually justify having a god send aid and assistance should you be unable to come up with anything else, there is no excuse for just ending the game with a TPK and starting a new one.
Well I did ask if they wanted a ret-con and if not everyone had to agreed we would roll up new characters. Everyone agreed.
It was indeed an oops moment. Just like the time before.
Total Party Kill as in all the characters are down and Something has to happen to bring them back into the game? Yup. That has happened. The DM usually said "oops" and either ret-conned whatever just flattened everyone, or created some new story element to save us all and bring us back from the brink.
Total Party Kill as in "Everyone roll up a new character"? Nope. Not once. Not in decades of gaming. In a game where you can actually justify having a god send aid and assistance should you be unable to come up with anything else, there is no excuse for just ending the game with a TPK and starting a new one.
Each group is different in this regard and realistically each player.
For me... as a player, I would not want divine intervention or a retcon on a TPK. If we wiped, we wiped. That's what happens. It means there is real risk in the world -- a chance that you can lose, and do so permanently and forever. That type of risk is what gives adventures, especially dangerous ones like the old school Tomb of Horrors, their edge. I think something is missing without the chance of a TPK that the DM will not retcon because people didn't like it. Of course you don't like it -- nobody likes to have a character die. But the chance that it can happen needs to be there.
I think as a DM, it also depends on whether I did something by mistake or not. If I screwed up by not estimating the threat and thinking this is an easy fight and they are all dead now, then I will react differently than if I had warned them repeatedly this was dangerous/not to do this (via NPCs, messages on the wall, whatever) and they ignored it or did something stupid or foolhardy.
It also depends on the game. It D&D, it has traditionally been understood that character death is on the table (and in old school D&D, was WAY on the table, as in more likely than not). Rare was the player who got a character to high level without it being a 2nd or 3rd character in the campaign. On the other hand, in Champions, most defeats are KOs, not kills, and traditionally one does not kill a Champions character on die rolls but as a story element. I don't think we ever had a character die to dice rolling in Champions. We had it happen a LOT in D&D. Same group of people, playing both games, one after the other over a course of months or years. Nobody objected to death in D&D. There would have been open rebellion against a GM who killed off a character with die rolls in Champions. It was just understood not to be on the table on on game, and to be on the table in the other. So that would color my reaction as well.
I don't think a DM should be mean and I don't think TPKs should happen by accident. But if the party is doing something incredibly stupid and the DM has tried to stop them and they did it anyway, then I do not as a DM feel bad if a party is hoisted on their own petard.
To be fair, I don't think we ever had a TPK even back in the day -- multiple deaths yes, total kill no. After a couple of people went down we were usually smart enough to run the heck away. But I have seen lots of individual characters die to extreme player foolishness, and I am not generally inclined to save them when that happens.
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WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
This is not true at all. Here's what happened. (lvl 3) LMoP. Thundertree. They caused a loud explosion near the dragon tower. Then after talking to the druid they went straight to it. I played it as the dragon knew he was there and was waiting for them. They opened the door and breath attack. Roll initiative. Dragon rolled high and rolled a 5 on his breath attack. Breath attack TPK.
Some DMs are fine with this as it gives a sense of danger to the campaign and helps to convey that there are powers in the setting that can and will destroy them if they run around recklessly. After all, there were several precautions the party should have taken here but didn't. They were reckless. It's up to you to decide the cost of recklessness. So I'm going to start with saying that a TPK is fine in this situation and this is the way I'd expect many DMs to play it.
That being said, for me personally I try to avoid creating the feeling of total helplessness in the party as they watch their characters die. It's not very fun and it tends to erode the player's trust in the DM whether you think it's deserved or not. D&D is not just a story - it's also a game, and TPKed parties often feel like they were cheated by the game rather than served their due by the story. So the rest of this post will be things I might have done to avoid the TPK were I in this situation.
First, just because players are reckless and arrogant doesn't mean the characters are oblivious to all danger. I might stop someone with high INT or WIS who is about to barge into a dragon's lair in fireball formation and give them an appropriate warning about how their character might have some misgivings about their plan. Just like you might remind a player that their good-aligned character wouldn't do something evil, you might also remind an 18 INT tactical genius that his character probably would not do the stupid-aligned thing they are about to do.
Second, I tend to play up the flaws of dragons to prevent this kind of immediate slaughter. The dragon is arrogant and wants to play with the party, the dragon is dramatic and wants to build up some tension before finishing them off, the dragon is cruel and wants to give them hope before taking it away, the dragon is contemptuous and slaps them out the door and melts it shut not bothering to kill such non-threats, that kind of thing. This also gives the dragon a bit more personality and tends to make its eventual defeat all the more satisfying.
Third, surprise can be incredibly strong in 5e and this goes double for big bosses who have extra-potent attacks to make up for their disadvantaged action economy. You wouldn't be breaking anything if you altered the mechanics a bit. Everyone could have rolled initiative before opening the door, and when the dragon went first it would have used its reaction to ready a breath. It still goes off in their face, but now they get to act before it goes again. They still get the "oh shit" moment without feeling completely helpless.
One of the first major 4e campaigns I played in had a TPK about 3 games before we were planning to take a Christmas break. It was a boss battle that included an area of effect that would knock people prone at the top of their turn if they failed a save, and NO ONE was able to save. So no one was able to flee and things just went downhill from there. We made a few dumb mistakes and none of us could roll a double digit and it was over in only a few rounds. It was sad, and we all enjoyed some time to mourn. But then we spent the rest of the session talking through what we wanted to do next. The DM offered a few options, some more in cannon than others, so we could continue with those characters in that game. It was all good options, it just came down to what we felt as a group made the most sense for us, in that moment, with those characters. In the end, for a variety of reasons, we decided to let the end happen as it did. We spent the last few sessions before Christmas break planning new characters and a DM switch, and by January we were all excited about the new game!
That being said, I could see myself making a very different decision with a different character in a different game. Or as the DM in a game! I agree that avoiding a TPK is always the preference, but what I learned is that if it happens it's 100% ok and awesome to sit as a group and decide what to do next, and that decision can easily include everything from a ret-con to a deux ex machina to the DM just making magic happen. There's no wrong answer, and it's just a game of make believe so you can make up whatever you want, all that matters is that everyone in the group is happy with what happens next.
I have played and DMed for a long time. ToA never had a TPK (not even close actually). Descent to Avernus - two TPKs. One to Flennis (engaged flennis, but ran back to group up. Fireball - everyone grouped up etc). Felt a little mean so I gave them a story out (Flennis took their bodies and experimented on them gave them cool new powers). They then tried to infiltrate a house - disguised as the lady of the house - with a group of 5 behind her looting everything that wasn't nailed down in full view of the servants. A few imps later, some really bad play (almost no casting, rogue fighting solo so no sneak attack etc) and I let the dice go where they wanted.
I didn't give them an out there. They played it like a video game. I gave them a few chances but at the end of the day my goal is to present a realistic world. We stopped the campaign, started another and I will run Rime when we are done with that.
Everyone, myself included, as upset about the TPK, but I still maintain it was the right thing to do. Stupid actions lead to unhappy results.
I've been playing for 10 years, but only very seriously for about 3 years. I've had one TPK total and another almost TPK where everyone but the paladin was down and had one healing spell left-- very dicey. In all honesty I think any veteran player should expect there might be a TPK. You never truly know how an encounter might go and can't predict the decisions of the players or poor dice rolls The TPK that happened in one of my games happened because we were spying on an important deal being made between some very evil powerful mages. My DM hadn't really counted on us engaging with the villains beyond spying, but shit happens and our bard accidentally dropped invisibility because they forgot that it was a concentration spell and sent a message to another party member. This wound up revealing us to the villains and a fight ensued that the DM hadn't planned for. He had the mage hit us with meteor swarm-- a 9th lvl, when we were only at lvl 4 or 5. Obviously we all died. No one was particularly happy and my DM felt horrible, but none of us thought it was on purpose.
Personally, your veteran friend needs to adjust his expectations of the game–– DMs have to make decisions that fit the narrative choices the players make and if that ends up with everyone dying because of mistakes and reckless actions and/ or player or DM misunderstandings, it's just par for the course. It's how the game goes. That being said there are ways the PCs could've avoided this situation, but the players may not have thought to do it. Like a high CHAR PC could've tried to persuade them out of going or a PC with high INT or WIS could've weighed the risks but didn't. I think it's ultimately a balance of player and DM choices. Try not to be too hard on yourself :)
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Dragons? In my dungeon? More likely than you think.
A fight ensued that the DM hadn't planned for. He had the mage hit us with meteor swarm-- a 9th lvl, when we were only at lvl 4 or 5.
Why did a group of enemies designed for 4th and 5th level characters have meteor swarm in the first place?
I know you said they were "powerful evil mages" but against level 5s, a level 10 mage is a "powerful evil mage." Or a level 15. Level what is it, 17+ to cast a level 9 spell, and presumably more than one level 17... is quite the overkill. Unless you guys were absolutely somewhere you shouldn't have been, I mean... stealth or no stealth, if they could cast 9th level spells, there shouldn't even have been any way for level 4s to sneak up on them, given all the protection and revelatory and other spells a group of evil mages can (and probably would) cast while having a secret meeting....
Note, I am NOT saying that all encounters have to be winnable, or that you have to put only 4th and 5th level enemies up against level 4s and 5s. But if I wanted my party to face "powerful evil mages" (and right now they are 5th level), I'd face them against level 10s or something, not level 17+s. It's just asking for a TPK the second someone fails a stealth check.
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WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
A fight ensued that the DM hadn't planned for. He had the mage hit us with meteor swarm-- a 9th lvl, when we were only at lvl 4 or 5.
Just a guess though.
But it is likely similar to the OP's situation, a hostile dragon somewhere that a group of level 3's could encounter them.
There is a tendency amongst players, particularly new players, to assume that anything hostile they meet is there for them to immediately (or relatively immediately) defeat. The concept of strategic withdrawl never occurs to them. Classic example: Luke at least had Obi Wan and later Yoda to keep him on a leash with respect to the Empire. Most PC parties do not have that.
Yeah, the majority of our players were new (save for me) and my character had high WIS and was trying to convince the party not to delve too deep, but when you have newer players that think they have to meet every challenge it can be difficult to get everyone on board. My DM was also newer and thought he knew our dynamic well enough to know what we would do. This encounter was more supposed to be an intelligence gathering on an ancient temple and even I hadn't thought we would interact with NPCs. I thought we would retreat if things got hairy. Narratively it made sense that we would go to the temple was because there was lore and an item there we needed. I honestly think what happened was my DM kind of panicked when the plan didn't go well, cobbled stuff together as we went along and we all ended up dying. Sometimes you have to have high stakes, but it can turn out pretty bad.
With my DMing style I try to never create an encounter that my players 100% couldn't survive. I think I over plan. But not everyone works that way, some people just wing it as the go along. I think my DM at the time wasn't prepared for the encounter to move into combat.
In Baldur's Gate III, I'm getting TPKs all the time. Each time, I start over with a completely different character. I still haven't finished Chapter 1 (the early access section).
Weird thing is: I think I got the furthest with a Githyanki Warrior duo (2 party members only) - a class and roleplay I absolutely hated. Still met their end because a Worg was hungry and aggroed the entire nearby tribe. (The get-out-of-jail-free 1-per-long-rest abilities were still on cooldown, but I don't recall even getting the mention with the Worg. It might not have worked on the Worg regardless. The game lets you know when the ability's on cooldown but you could have otherwise used it at the time.)
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Human. Male. Possibly. Don't be a divider. My characters' backgrounds are written like instruction manuals rather than stories. My opinion and preferences don't mean you're wrong. I am 99.7603% convinced that the digital dice are messing with me. I roll high when nobody's looking and low when anyone else can see.🎲 “It's a bit early to be thinking about an epitaph. No?” will be my epitaph.
A fight ensued that the DM hadn't planned for. He had the mage hit us with meteor swarm-- a 9th lvl, when we were only at lvl 4 or 5.
Why did a group of enemies designed for 4th and 5th level characters have meteor swarm in the first place?
I know you said they were "powerful evil mages" but against level 5s, a level 10 mage is a "powerful evil mage." Or a level 15. Level what is it, 17+ to cast a level 9 spell, and presumably more than one level 17... is quite the overkill. Unless you guys were absolutely somewhere you shouldn't have been, I mean... stealth or no stealth, if they could cast 9th level spells, there shouldn't even have been any way for level 4s to sneak up on them, given all the protection and revelatory and other spells a group of evil mages can (and probably would) cast while having a secret meeting....
Note, I am NOT saying that all encounters have to be winnable, or that you have to put only 4th and 5th level enemies up against level 4s and 5s. But if I wanted my party to face "powerful evil mages" (and right now they are 5th level), I'd face them against level 10s or something, not level 17+s. It's just asking for a TPK the second someone fails a stealth check.
I suspect that they were not expected to go up against the 17+ caster but they were trying for some reason to do something almost certainly suicidal, like trying to sneak into the castle of the evil ruler thinking that invisibility would be enough to cover them, when they were really intended to adopt the much more sensible strategy of realizing that at 5th they are too low to be taking on evil empires that directly and should be running away to find some much more practical way to defeat them, or at least to survive long enough to find such a way.
Just a guess though.
But it is likely similar to the OP's situation, a hostile dragon somewhere that a group of level 3's could encounter them.
There is a tendency amongst players, particularly new players, to assume that anything hostile they meet is there for them to immediately (or relatively immediately) defeat. The concept of strategic withdrawl never occurs to them. Classic example: Luke at least had Obi Wan and later Yoda to keep him on a leash with respect to the Empire. Most PC parties do not have that.
OP here. Yeah, it was a party of 4 and three are brand new players. Have you ever read the module "lost mines of phandelver"? (LMoP) the "deal with the dragon" quest reward was for the druid to lead them to the end area. I think this got lost in communication.
I suspected that module might be at fault. It is rather good except for bits like that. I am running it at the moment but heavily modified to fit my campaign world. No dragon, since any dragon young enough for that low level a party to have a chance against would not be allowed out of line of sight of its parents (and in fact dragons generally are believed to be in hiding or otherwise self-exiled at the moment).
Your party seems to have gotten past the goblin ambush in the beginning, at least.... (in mine they were friendly goblins.... there was still a risk but the party did manage to remember that there is a truce on and those goblins they met were likely not enemies (and are now allies :) ).
That is also where the first TPK happened. They went up the gravel slope. And the wizard was in front. (The wizard was the veteran) got crited and insta death. I called that up to a premonition by the wizard.
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How long have you guys played and how many times have you had a tpk?
Basically I have a guy who told me he had been playing for 30 years and had only one TPK. Aside from my game where we have done it twice.
I am a gm, although I am knowledgeable of the rules, I struggle with the finer points of game balance. The player is upset at me thinking that I purposely tpk the party so that the other players can play with thier new characters.
This is not true at all. Here's what happened. (lvl 3) LMoP. Thundertree. They caused a loud explosion near the dragon tower. Then after talking to the druid they went straight to it. I played it as the dragon knew he was there and was waiting for them. They opened the door and breath attack. Roll initiative. Dragon rolled high and rolled a 5 on his breath attack. Breath attack TPK.
There was a misunderstanding of me not realizing the the wizard was using his owl to try to see the top of the tower beforehand and that it came across as the druid would only give directions to the cragmaw castle if they got rid of the dragon. I thought I had said it was the wave echo cave only. I also asked if they wanted a do over. Everyone said no. Now weeks later he is angry and has decided to leave.
Tldr: 30 year veteran accuses me of purposely TPK and says he had only one other TPK in his life. Is this normal?
For what it's worth, I think if someone has been playing this game for 30 years they should be old enough and mature enough by now to be able to accept the occasional adversity, even if it is the result of a simple misunderstanding. I've been playing D&D off and on since Christmas of 1980 (or was it 81?). I've seen a bunch of TPKs. It happens. Some TPKs happen because the players just aren't careful enough. Some happen because the DM misjudged the party's capabilities. Some happen just because fate p!ssed on your dice that morning. It's a game. Nobody got hurt. Make a new character, take another chance.
Don't sweat it.
Tayn of Darkwood. Lvl 10 human Life Cleric of Lathander. Retired.
Ikram Sahir ibn Malik al-Sayyid Ra'ad, Second Son of the House of Ra'ad, Defender of the Burning Sands. Lvl 9 Brass Dragonborn Sorcerer + Greater Fire Elemental Devil.
Viktor Gavriil. Lvl 20 White Dragonborn Grave Cleric, of Kurgan the God of Death.
Anzio Faro. Lvl 5 Prot. Aasimar Light Cleric.
I haven't had a TPK since 4th Edition, and that was because the GM I was playing with was a self-admitted jerk who would throw challenges meant for 5 well-equipped characters at a party of 3 under-equipped characters.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
I started playing in the mid 1980's and have never had a tpk. There have been times where it was very close, and several characters died in an encounter, but not a tpk. That said Lost Mines is an introductory game for new players. Having them face a dragon at level 3 was poor adventure design. I have been through it twice with 2 different groups since lockdown.
The first was with a group of experienced players and they did all the side missions first so had reached level 4. When that group attacked we did it quietly, had the element of surprise, and the first action of the first round - while the dragon was still asleep - was to hit it with a fireball using a scroll that had been found. It was very close but the group actually killed the dragon.
The second group were all brand new players except for me and didn't do any of the other side quests, hadn't learnt any tactics other than charge. They went straight to the dragon tower, used thunderwave on some spiders outside and then ran straight in. It got messy very fast. 1 character died outright with the first breath weapon (21 hitpoints and they failed the save taking 42 damage). Others got badly injured, one player actually heeded my multiple warnings and followed my tactics of keeping spread out and attacking from range, our two characters were the only ones that didn't come very close to dying. Realistically that should have been my first tpk but the GM went really easy because they were brand new players.
We've been playing 17 sessions. Not a single death yet, and they are level 5. At this point I would say a TPK is unlikely unless they take on something WAY bigger than they can chew. Possible, but much less likely than when they were level 1-4.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
I DM for almost a year now and almost did TPK twice in one week.
My first group found a venom troll (4 players 6 lvl each) and that troll killed two party members... well one was killed because other player attacked the troll that was right next to his unconscious body with 2 failed death saves. Two others just fled.
My second group was fighting Cryovain, the dragon from dragon of icespire peak. I got him maximum hp that young white dragon could get because it was supposed to be 4 vs 1. 4 PCs, 6th level. Before that battle they fought him in the wild. White dragons are almost like animals in dnd. Now they were in icespire hold, dragon's lair. They found that 2nd group of evil veterans and failed insight check, my players thought they are gonna help them but that wasn't what was going to happen. They went to that damn roof and veterans woke up the dragon. Their plan was simple - they'll kill party or the dragon, whoever won the battle. I was really lucky that day and I could use my breath 3 times in a row (my rolls were public, they knew). I managed to down three players and then dragon attacked the veterans. Cleric got nat20 on death saving throw, they had a lot of potions. They managed to heal while dragon was fighting evil npcs. After that dragon fought them again. Almost all got downed, they had really bad rolls and some almost died but Tymora protected them from perma death thanks to everything they did to people in that area. Barbarian managed to kill the Cryovain while having like 5 hp.
Total Party Kill as in all the characters are down and Something has to happen to bring them back into the game? Yup. That has happened. The DM usually said "oops" and either ret-conned whatever just flattened everyone, or created some new story element to save us all and bring us back from the brink.
Total Party Kill as in "Everyone roll up a new character"? Nope. Not once. Not in decades of gaming. In a game where you can actually justify having a god send aid and assistance should you be unable to come up with anything else, there is no excuse for just ending the game with a TPK and starting a new one.
<Insert clever signature here>
Well I did ask if they wanted a ret-con and if not everyone had to agreed we would roll up new characters. Everyone agreed.
It was indeed an oops moment. Just like the time before.
Each group is different in this regard and realistically each player.
For me... as a player, I would not want divine intervention or a retcon on a TPK. If we wiped, we wiped. That's what happens. It means there is real risk in the world -- a chance that you can lose, and do so permanently and forever. That type of risk is what gives adventures, especially dangerous ones like the old school Tomb of Horrors, their edge. I think something is missing without the chance of a TPK that the DM will not retcon because people didn't like it. Of course you don't like it -- nobody likes to have a character die. But the chance that it can happen needs to be there.
I think as a DM, it also depends on whether I did something by mistake or not. If I screwed up by not estimating the threat and thinking this is an easy fight and they are all dead now, then I will react differently than if I had warned them repeatedly this was dangerous/not to do this (via NPCs, messages on the wall, whatever) and they ignored it or did something stupid or foolhardy.
It also depends on the game. It D&D, it has traditionally been understood that character death is on the table (and in old school D&D, was WAY on the table, as in more likely than not). Rare was the player who got a character to high level without it being a 2nd or 3rd character in the campaign. On the other hand, in Champions, most defeats are KOs, not kills, and traditionally one does not kill a Champions character on die rolls but as a story element. I don't think we ever had a character die to dice rolling in Champions. We had it happen a LOT in D&D. Same group of people, playing both games, one after the other over a course of months or years. Nobody objected to death in D&D. There would have been open rebellion against a GM who killed off a character with die rolls in Champions. It was just understood not to be on the table on on game, and to be on the table in the other. So that would color my reaction as well.
I don't think a DM should be mean and I don't think TPKs should happen by accident. But if the party is doing something incredibly stupid and the DM has tried to stop them and they did it anyway, then I do not as a DM feel bad if a party is hoisted on their own petard.
To be fair, I don't think we ever had a TPK even back in the day -- multiple deaths yes, total kill no. After a couple of people went down we were usually smart enough to run the heck away. But I have seen lots of individual characters die to extreme player foolishness, and I am not generally inclined to save them when that happens.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
Some DMs are fine with this as it gives a sense of danger to the campaign and helps to convey that there are powers in the setting that can and will destroy them if they run around recklessly. After all, there were several precautions the party should have taken here but didn't. They were reckless. It's up to you to decide the cost of recklessness. So I'm going to start with saying that a TPK is fine in this situation and this is the way I'd expect many DMs to play it.
That being said, for me personally I try to avoid creating the feeling of total helplessness in the party as they watch their characters die. It's not very fun and it tends to erode the player's trust in the DM whether you think it's deserved or not. D&D is not just a story - it's also a game, and TPKed parties often feel like they were cheated by the game rather than served their due by the story. So the rest of this post will be things I might have done to avoid the TPK were I in this situation.
First, just because players are reckless and arrogant doesn't mean the characters are oblivious to all danger. I might stop someone with high INT or WIS who is about to barge into a dragon's lair in fireball formation and give them an appropriate warning about how their character might have some misgivings about their plan. Just like you might remind a player that their good-aligned character wouldn't do something evil, you might also remind an 18 INT tactical genius that his character probably would not do the stupid-aligned thing they are about to do.
Second, I tend to play up the flaws of dragons to prevent this kind of immediate slaughter. The dragon is arrogant and wants to play with the party, the dragon is dramatic and wants to build up some tension before finishing them off, the dragon is cruel and wants to give them hope before taking it away, the dragon is contemptuous and slaps them out the door and melts it shut not bothering to kill such non-threats, that kind of thing. This also gives the dragon a bit more personality and tends to make its eventual defeat all the more satisfying.
Third, surprise can be incredibly strong in 5e and this goes double for big bosses who have extra-potent attacks to make up for their disadvantaged action economy. You wouldn't be breaking anything if you altered the mechanics a bit. Everyone could have rolled initiative before opening the door, and when the dragon went first it would have used its reaction to ready a breath. It still goes off in their face, but now they get to act before it goes again. They still get the "oh shit" moment without feeling completely helpless.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
Three Words.
Old. White. Death.
SAUCE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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InsiderOne of the first major 4e campaigns I played in had a TPK about 3 games before we were planning to take a Christmas break. It was a boss battle that included an area of effect that would knock people prone at the top of their turn if they failed a save, and NO ONE was able to save. So no one was able to flee and things just went downhill from there. We made a few dumb mistakes and none of us could roll a double digit and it was over in only a few rounds. It was sad, and we all enjoyed some time to mourn. But then we spent the rest of the session talking through what we wanted to do next. The DM offered a few options, some more in cannon than others, so we could continue with those characters in that game. It was all good options, it just came down to what we felt as a group made the most sense for us, in that moment, with those characters. In the end, for a variety of reasons, we decided to let the end happen as it did. We spent the last few sessions before Christmas break planning new characters and a DM switch, and by January we were all excited about the new game!
That being said, I could see myself making a very different decision with a different character in a different game. Or as the DM in a game! I agree that avoiding a TPK is always the preference, but what I learned is that if it happens it's 100% ok and awesome to sit as a group and decide what to do next, and that decision can easily include everything from a ret-con to a deux ex machina to the DM just making magic happen. There's no wrong answer, and it's just a game of make believe so you can make up whatever you want, all that matters is that everyone in the group is happy with what happens next.
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That's the thing... although character death sucks at the moment it happens, as soon as I start planning out a new character I get excited to try it.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
I have played and DMed for a long time. ToA never had a TPK (not even close actually). Descent to Avernus - two TPKs. One to Flennis (engaged flennis, but ran back to group up. Fireball - everyone grouped up etc). Felt a little mean so I gave them a story out (Flennis took their bodies and experimented on them gave them cool new powers). They then tried to infiltrate a house - disguised as the lady of the house - with a group of 5 behind her looting everything that wasn't nailed down in full view of the servants. A few imps later, some really bad play (almost no casting, rogue fighting solo so no sneak attack etc) and I let the dice go where they wanted.
I didn't give them an out there. They played it like a video game. I gave them a few chances but at the end of the day my goal is to present a realistic world. We stopped the campaign, started another and I will run Rime when we are done with that.
Everyone, myself included, as upset about the TPK, but I still maintain it was the right thing to do. Stupid actions lead to unhappy results.
I've been playing for 10 years, but only very seriously for about 3 years. I've had one TPK total and another almost TPK where everyone but the paladin was down and had one healing spell left-- very dicey. In all honesty I think any veteran player should expect there might be a TPK. You never truly know how an encounter might go and can't predict the decisions of the players or poor dice rolls The TPK that happened in one of my games happened because we were spying on an important deal being made between some very evil powerful mages. My DM hadn't really counted on us engaging with the villains beyond spying, but shit happens and our bard accidentally dropped invisibility because they forgot that it was a concentration spell and sent a message to another party member. This wound up revealing us to the villains and a fight ensued that the DM hadn't planned for. He had the mage hit us with meteor swarm-- a 9th lvl, when we were only at lvl 4 or 5. Obviously we all died. No one was particularly happy and my DM felt horrible, but none of us thought it was on purpose.
Personally, your veteran friend needs to adjust his expectations of the game–– DMs have to make decisions that fit the narrative choices the players make and if that ends up with everyone dying because of mistakes and reckless actions and/ or player or DM misunderstandings, it's just par for the course. It's how the game goes. That being said there are ways the PCs could've avoided this situation, but the players may not have thought to do it. Like a high CHAR PC could've tried to persuade them out of going or a PC with high INT or WIS could've weighed the risks but didn't. I think it's ultimately a balance of player and DM choices. Try not to be too hard on yourself :)
Dragons? In my dungeon? More likely than you think.
Why did a group of enemies designed for 4th and 5th level characters have meteor swarm in the first place?
I know you said they were "powerful evil mages" but against level 5s, a level 10 mage is a "powerful evil mage." Or a level 15. Level what is it, 17+ to cast a level 9 spell, and presumably more than one level 17... is quite the overkill. Unless you guys were absolutely somewhere you shouldn't have been, I mean... stealth or no stealth, if they could cast 9th level spells, there shouldn't even have been any way for level 4s to sneak up on them, given all the protection and revelatory and other spells a group of evil mages can (and probably would) cast while having a secret meeting....
Note, I am NOT saying that all encounters have to be winnable, or that you have to put only 4th and 5th level enemies up against level 4s and 5s. But if I wanted my party to face "powerful evil mages" (and right now they are 5th level), I'd face them against level 10s or something, not level 17+s. It's just asking for a TPK the second someone fails a stealth check.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
Yeah, the majority of our players were new (save for me) and my character had high WIS and was trying to convince the party not to delve too deep, but when you have newer players that think they have to meet every challenge it can be difficult to get everyone on board. My DM was also newer and thought he knew our dynamic well enough to know what we would do. This encounter was more supposed to be an intelligence gathering on an ancient temple and even I hadn't thought we would interact with NPCs. I thought we would retreat if things got hairy. Narratively it made sense that we would go to the temple was because there was lore and an item there we needed. I honestly think what happened was my DM kind of panicked when the plan didn't go well, cobbled stuff together as we went along and we all ended up dying. Sometimes you have to have high stakes, but it can turn out pretty bad.
With my DMing style I try to never create an encounter that my players 100% couldn't survive. I think I over plan. But not everyone works that way, some people just wing it as the go along. I think my DM at the time wasn't prepared for the encounter to move into combat.
Dragons? In my dungeon? More likely than you think.
In Baldur's Gate III, I'm getting TPKs all the time. Each time, I start over with a completely different character. I still haven't finished Chapter 1 (the early access section).
Weird thing is: I think I got the furthest with a Githyanki Warrior duo (2 party members only) - a class and roleplay I absolutely hated. Still met their end because a Worg was hungry and aggroed the entire nearby tribe. (The get-out-of-jail-free 1-per-long-rest abilities were still on cooldown, but I don't recall even getting the mention with the Worg. It might not have worked on the Worg regardless. The game lets you know when the ability's on cooldown but you could have otherwise used it at the time.)
Human. Male. Possibly. Don't be a divider.
My characters' backgrounds are written like instruction manuals rather than stories. My opinion and preferences don't mean you're wrong.
I am 99.7603% convinced that the digital dice are messing with me. I roll high when nobody's looking and low when anyone else can see.🎲
“It's a bit early to be thinking about an epitaph. No?” will be my epitaph.
OP here. Yeah, it was a party of 4 and three are brand new players. Have you ever read the module "lost mines of phandelver"? (LMoP) the "deal with the dragon" quest reward was for the druid to lead them to the end area. I think this got lost in communication.
That is also where the first TPK happened. They went up the gravel slope. And the wizard was in front. (The wizard was the veteran) got crited and insta death. I called that up to a premonition by the wizard.