Simple question hopefully. How do the effects on the various shards resolve, specifically in what order or time? I understand the trigger is "using Metamagic", and two shards are very clear: the Astral Shard are very clear - "immediately after casting the spell", Feywild Shard has to take effect when Wild Magic would. Two (Outer Essence Shard & Elemental Essence Shard) use the text "When you use a Metamagic option on a spell while you are holding or wearing the shard, you can use that property" while the Shadowfell & Far Realm Shards are a little less clear to me.
I'm looking to understand the "event order" clearly and how they might interact with each other if using the same trigger. For example, I would expect if you had the Outer Essence Shard & Elemental Essence Shard that you could choose which goes first since they have the exact same trigger and resolution timeframe...…I'm just not sure exactly when that is for these. is it when you declare the use of the Metamagic, is it after the spell is cast? Most Metamagic is declared on casting, however some can be used before the spell resolves, for example the one that lets you reroll a damage dice.
Thank you to anyone who can clarify and provide book / page references as my goal is to understand the underlying rules behind this. I have played D&D for years and haven't yet run into a situation like this where it felt like "Magic the Gathering" resolution rules and I didn't understand clearly from reading the text how exactly it worked. I am hoping it's because I didn't know where to find the rules that would clearly show the resolution order for these events instead of it actually being unclear.
The event order for pretty much everything is really simple - you do something, people (or things) react to that something. A sorcerer with a far realm shard casts fireball with metamagic, then a giant tentacle pops out and smacks someone. In the particular case of using two spell shards at once... both shards would activate at the same time.
Do note - Its not unusual for a DM to require the player to declare who's being hit by the tentacle before resolving all the damage from the fireball, considering how fast it happens. Its going to depend on individual playstyle if its run that way or not. 5e is really lose with a lot of rules by design, since the devs wanted to allow DMs to be flexible.
That is not clear to me and I was honestly hoping for a page to read a rule. In what you typed above it still doesn't tell me clearly if you mean the fireball completely resolves or the shard interrupts the spell at the moment of the declaration of the metamagic and then everything resumes resolving.
With all due respect... You're really overthinking this. Everything happens at roughly the same exact moment. Some DMs will allow you to finish calculating the damage from fireball before picking someone to hit with the tentacle, but others won't.
This isn't Magic the Gathering; there's no such thing as waiting for a spell to fully resolve, interrupt a spell, declaring metamagic, establishing a spell queue, etc. You cast a spell, stuff happens.
I mean, if you want to run games that way, more power to you. Its just not something that the books cover in that exacting of detail - "rulings, not rules" as the WotC team says.
Yeah, I don't want to think that way, it's more an issue since I'm likely going to be playing AL for the rest of the pandemic which means that understanding the RAW for this is more important. I'd normally just ask a GM "how do you want this to work" and then if we need to change it then roll with the punches. In AL though, RAW is for good or bad critical to this type of thing.
You can play however you want. But I am telling you that 5e source books don't really do the technical details you want here. They're deliberately casual on the matter.
With all due respect, I already told you that's not how I want to play. I don't think you've played AL if you don't understand my concern / question's intent; however even if you did....you can't answer it. I appreciate the response, however I am going to hope someone with a rules citable answer comes along. Thanks.
I'm not telling you to play in any specific way. The point I'm making is that you won't find the answer you're looking for in the books or in AL documents, because the books are not written with that style of play in mind.
"As a D&D Adventurers League Dungeon Master, you are empowered to adjudicate the rules as presented by the official materials (PHB, DMG, MM, etc.). Run the game according to those rules, but you are the final arbiter of any questions that might arise in doing so. House rules, that is to say rules that you create that aren’t in the official materials such as “critical fails”, new races, new classes, etc., aren’t permitted for use in D&D Adventurers League play"
The Adventure League tells you that, in the case of situations like your proposed one, they are empowering the DM to make the call, so long as it doesn't contradict the core books. Those very books do not hold the answer you seek, because they are deliberately left open ended so individual DMs will make the call that best suits their tables.
I do understand, however if it is not currently in the books, it will eventually be a "Jeremey Crawford tweet" and those are considered "official". I can't tell you how many times or how frustrating it is to make or play a character to have someone "tear it (or you) apart" b/c "you're stupid" for not knowing a rule or having read every tweet Crawford has ever made......
I know that shouldn't be D&D, however you have no control over who sits next to you at an AL table. This season they added punishments a DM can hand out for being disruptive at the table in specific ways, so I know they are trying to address some of that....it just is what it is.
I don't know if it carried over to 5e, but if there were simultaneous events occurring on a player's turn in 4e, the order of those events were determined by the player. If it was happening on a monster' turn, the DM determined the order. Basically each person gets to decide how their turn goes down.
Generally, it is assumed that the player decides the order of simultaneous triggers on their turn, unless there's a pressing reason otherwise. I can't recall the specific page number (especially since DDB documents don't have page numbers, which is a god damned problem DDB ), but the book does say that generally the player picks the order of operations for effects they cause on their turn and the Dm decides the same for NPCs and monsters.
Mephista is correct in that there is no Official Hard-Coded This-Is-The-Way-It-Be Iron Rule for this sort of thing. That, unfortunately, does mean it's a pain in the hindus for Adventurer's League. Kind of par for the course for AL though - the system is specifically designed to punish players as hard and as often as it can because AL hates you, your character, your story, your fellow players, your mom, your DM, and your entire face.
it will eventually be a "Jeremey Crawford tweet" and those are considered "official".
They are not. Crawford himself tweated that his calls aren't official rules. A bit of a change, really, from when he first started, but its official that his tweets aren't official rules.
When did that happen? I haven't played AL in a couple years, however I remember that being the most annoying part of the game. Having something in black and white overturned by a Crawford tweet........
"The public statements of the D&D team, or anyone else at Wizards of the Coast, are not official rulings; they are advice. Jeremy Crawford's tweets are often a preview of rulings that will appear here. This is saying that no longer are the tweets of any of the WotC staff considered official, including Crawford.Jan 30, 2019"
Ok, well with Crawford tweets no longer being rules; then I know it is GM call until Sage Advice eventually (if ever) covers it. Thanks, now I'm less concerned about having people be jerks with tweets at the table.
From xgte page 77 simultaneous effects (like a lot of things, these are optional rules but it's better than "play however your like"):
In rare cases, effects can happen at the same time, especially at the start or end of a creature's turn. If two or more things happen at the same time on a character or monster's turn, the person at the game table - whether player or DM - who controls that creature decides the order in which those things happen.
Hi,
Simple question hopefully. How do the effects on the various shards resolve, specifically in what order or time? I understand the trigger is "using Metamagic", and two shards are very clear: the Astral Shard are very clear - "immediately after casting the spell", Feywild Shard has to take effect when Wild Magic would. Two (Outer Essence Shard & Elemental Essence Shard) use the text "When you use a Metamagic option on a spell while you are holding or wearing the shard, you can use that property" while the Shadowfell & Far Realm Shards are a little less clear to me.
I'm looking to understand the "event order" clearly and how they might interact with each other if using the same trigger. For example, I would expect if you had the Outer Essence Shard & Elemental Essence Shard that you could choose which goes first since they have the exact same trigger and resolution timeframe...…I'm just not sure exactly when that is for these. is it when you declare the use of the Metamagic, is it after the spell is cast? Most Metamagic is declared on casting, however some can be used before the spell resolves, for example the one that lets you reroll a damage dice.
Thank you to anyone who can clarify and provide book / page references as my goal is to understand the underlying rules behind this. I have played D&D for years and haven't yet run into a situation like this where it felt like "Magic the Gathering" resolution rules and I didn't understand clearly from reading the text how exactly it worked. I am hoping it's because I didn't know where to find the rules that would clearly show the resolution order for these events instead of it actually being unclear.
As an example, if you have a Sorcerer with the Feywild shard and the Elemental Shard (Air), then when you apply Metamagic, would the order be:
1. Declare use of metamagic, fly, then resolve spell w/ surge.
2. Declare use of metamagic, resolve spell w/ surge, then fly.
3. Something else?
The event order for pretty much everything is really simple - you do something, people (or things) react to that something. A sorcerer with a far realm shard casts fireball with metamagic, then a giant tentacle pops out and smacks someone. In the particular case of using two spell shards at once... both shards would activate at the same time.
Do note - Its not unusual for a DM to require the player to declare who's being hit by the tentacle before resolving all the damage from the fireball, considering how fast it happens. Its going to depend on individual playstyle if its run that way or not. 5e is really lose with a lot of rules by design, since the devs wanted to allow DMs to be flexible.
That is not clear to me and I was honestly hoping for a page to read a rule. In what you typed above it still doesn't tell me clearly if you mean the fireball completely resolves or the shard interrupts the spell at the moment of the declaration of the metamagic and then everything resumes resolving.
With all due respect... You're really overthinking this. Everything happens at roughly the same exact moment. Some DMs will allow you to finish calculating the damage from fireball before picking someone to hit with the tentacle, but others won't.
This isn't Magic the Gathering; there's no such thing as waiting for a spell to fully resolve, interrupt a spell, declaring metamagic, establishing a spell queue, etc. You cast a spell, stuff happens.
I mean, if you want to run games that way, more power to you. Its just not something that the books cover in that exacting of detail - "rulings, not rules" as the WotC team says.
Yeah, I don't want to think that way, it's more an issue since I'm likely going to be playing AL for the rest of the pandemic which means that understanding the RAW for this is more important. I'd normally just ask a GM "how do you want this to work" and then if we need to change it then roll with the punches. In AL though, RAW is for good or bad critical to this type of thing.
You can play however you want. But I am telling you that 5e source books don't really do the technical details you want here. They're deliberately casual on the matter.
With all due respect, I already told you that's not how I want to play. I don't think you've played AL if you don't understand my concern / question's intent; however even if you did....you can't answer it. I appreciate the response, however I am going to hope someone with a rules citable answer comes along. Thanks.
I'm not telling you to play in any specific way. The point I'm making is that you won't find the answer you're looking for in the books or in AL documents, because the books are not written with that style of play in mind.
From the Adventure League FAQ:
"As a D&D Adventurers League Dungeon Master, you are empowered to adjudicate the rules as presented by the official materials (PHB, DMG, MM, etc.). Run the game according to those rules, but you are the final arbiter of any questions that might arise in doing so. House rules, that is to say rules that you create that aren’t in the official materials such as “critical fails”, new races, new classes, etc., aren’t permitted for use in D&D Adventurers League play"
The Adventure League tells you that, in the case of situations like your proposed one, they are empowering the DM to make the call, so long as it doesn't contradict the core books. Those very books do not hold the answer you seek, because they are deliberately left open ended so individual DMs will make the call that best suits their tables.
I do understand, however if it is not currently in the books, it will eventually be a "Jeremey Crawford tweet" and those are considered "official". I can't tell you how many times or how frustrating it is to make or play a character to have someone "tear it (or you) apart" b/c "you're stupid" for not knowing a rule or having read every tweet Crawford has ever made......
I know that shouldn't be D&D, however you have no control over who sits next to you at an AL table. This season they added punishments a DM can hand out for being disruptive at the table in specific ways, so I know they are trying to address some of that....it just is what it is.
I don't know if it carried over to 5e, but if there were simultaneous events occurring on a player's turn in 4e, the order of those events were determined by the player. If it was happening on a monster' turn, the DM determined the order. Basically each person gets to decide how their turn goes down.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
Generally, it is assumed that the player decides the order of simultaneous triggers on their turn, unless there's a pressing reason otherwise. I can't recall the specific page number (especially since DDB documents don't have page numbers, which is a god damned problem DDB ), but the book does say that generally the player picks the order of operations for effects they cause on their turn and the Dm decides the same for NPCs and monsters.
Mephista is correct in that there is no Official Hard-Coded This-Is-The-Way-It-Be Iron Rule for this sort of thing. That, unfortunately, does mean it's a pain in the hindus for Adventurer's League. Kind of par for the course for AL though - the system is specifically designed to punish players as hard and as often as it can because AL hates you, your character, your story, your fellow players, your mom, your DM, and your entire face.
Please do not contact or message me.
They are not. Crawford himself tweated that his calls aren't official rules. A bit of a change, really, from when he first started, but its official that his tweets aren't official rules.
When did that happen? I haven't played AL in a couple years, however I remember that being the most annoying part of the game. Having something in black and white overturned by a Crawford tweet........
Never mind, found it.
"The public statements of the D&D team, or anyone else at Wizards of the Coast, are not official rulings; they are advice. Jeremy Crawford's tweets are often a preview of rulings that will appear here. This is saying that no longer are the tweets of any of the WotC staff considered official, including Crawford.Jan 30, 2019"
March 11, 2019, apparently.
https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/1105277917582389248
Ok, well with Crawford tweets no longer being rules; then I know it is GM call until Sage Advice eventually (if ever) covers it. Thanks, now I'm less concerned about having people be jerks with tweets at the table.
From xgte page 77 simultaneous effects (like a lot of things, these are optional rules but it's better than "play however your like"):
In rare cases, effects can happen at the same time, especially at the start or end of a creature's turn. If two or more things happen at the same time on a character or monster's turn, the person at the game table - whether player or DM - who controls that creature decides the order in which those things happen.