Ok, this thread was already prone to becoming a raging fire without bringing real world conflicts into this.
Overall, I think most people agree, play how you want because that’s ok but don’t enforce some sort of edict that there is a singular, right way to play D&D.
Think about goblin genocide this way: American colonizers slaughtered natives they believed to be evil to steal their land and to "manifest destiny." All goblins being evil brings a bad taste to the mouths of some people. Also, even if they worship the evil god Magubliyet, they can always be atheists or worship another pantheon. Just my two cents.
Except we're not talking about playing "Cowboys & Indians". We're talking about playing "Dungeons & Dragons" where Evil is a manifest and objective force in the Multiverse. Goblins aren't misunderstood natives getting crushed by modern society. Goblins are born Evil. They serve Evil gods. They're not even remotely similar to any native Earth tribe no matter who tells you otherwise or how often you say it.
Ok, this thread was already prone to becoming a raging fire without bringing real world conflicts into this.
No, this has to be discussed. Its the only way these sorts of things get resolved. Dumpster fire or not, there is a severe disconnect with branches of the community.
Brooklyn, I don't understand what you are trying to argue. D&D is not a setting; it is a rules system. There is currently no setting that has a sourcebooks that follows the "all goblins are universally evil" mentality. Let people play their own games, and stop creating a problem where one does not exist.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
Brooklyn, I don't understand what you are trying to argue. D&D is not a setting; it is a rules system. There is currently no setting that has a sourcebooks that follows the "all goblins are universally evil" mentality. Let people play their own games, and stop creating a problem where one does not exist.
But that's the point: in 5e, they may have been created by evil gods, but the rules do not say "they are born evil".
They do say that they are predisposed towards evil, they are more likely to be evil.
So, what you are saying is that in your world, the way you play it, you have house ruled that they are all irredeemably evil, without free will and unable to be anything else. That's fine, you may play it that way. Nobody here wants to stop you.
However, you then say that to play the game any other way of idiotic. You are telling everyone that they are playing it wrong, that yours is the one true way, and then wonder why people are getting upset with you...
For many thinking creatures, alignment is a moral choice. Humans, dwarves, elves, and other humanoid races can choose whether to follow the paths of good or evil, law or chaos. According to myth, the good-aligned gods who created these races gave them free will to choose their moral paths, knowing that good without free will is slavery.
The evil deities who created other races, though, made those races to serve them. Those races have strong inborn tendencies that match the nature of their gods. Most orcs share the violent, savage nature of the orc gods, and are thus inclined toward evil. Even if an orc chooses a good alignment, it struggles against its innate tendencies for its entire life. (Even half-orcs feel the lingering pull of the orc god’s influence.)
Alignment is an essential part of the nature of celestials and fiends. A devil does not choose to be lawful evil, and it doesn’t tend toward lawful evil, but rather it is lawful evil in its essence. If it somehow ceased to be lawful evil, it would cease to be a devil.
Most creatures that lack the capacity for rational thought do not have alignments—they are unaligned. Such a creature is incapable of making a moral or ethical choice and acts according to its bestial nature. Sharks are savage predators, for example, but they are not evil; they have no alignment.
Setting aside any reservations you may have to this approach to alignment, it's quite clear that even races created by evil gods have the capability to be good, even if it is more of a struggle for them. All humanoids have the capability to be mutable with their alignment, and everyone has the potential to be good or evil, albeit each journey being different and possibly more challenging.
As has been said many times in this thread, and a sentiment I couldn't agree with more, D&D is the game you decide to play. Each game is it's own, amazing microcosm of an experience and as long as you and your players are safe and having fun. and no one is getting hurt, there's no wrong way to play D&D. Chase your joy and be excellent to each other.
No, this has to be discussed. Its the only way these sorts of things get resolved. Dumpster fire or not, there is a severe disconnect with branches of the community.
Oh my sweet summer child...
Conversations on the internet don't change anyone's minds and resolve anything.
Threads like this exist as entertainment for us bored nerds and nothing more, so don't work yourself up and bring the marshmallows to fry.
Brooklyn, I don't understand what you are trying to argue. D&D is not a setting; it is a rules system. There is currently no setting that has a sourcebooks that follows the "all goblins are universally evil" mentality. Let people play their own games, and stop creating a problem where one does not exist.
As has been said many times in this thread, and a sentiment I couldn't agree with more, D&D is the game you decide to play. Each game is it's own, amazing microcosm of an experience and as long as you and your players are safe and having fun. and no one is getting hurt, there's no wrong way to play D&D. Chase your joy and be excellent to each other.
It's really quite simple: It's up to you and your table. It's not up to any of us not at your table.
If people keep insisting another table must play the way they wish, those people are out of luck.
This conversation doesn't make any sense when it should be obvious that the solution is within our own choices and not someone else's.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Human. Male. Possibly. Don't be a divider. My characters' backgrounds are written like instruction manuals rather than stories. My opinion and preferences don't mean you're wrong. I am 99.7603% convinced that the digital dice are messing with me. I roll high when nobody's looking and low when anyone else can see.🎲 “It's a bit early to be thinking about an epitaph. No?” will be my epitaph.
Think about goblin genocide this way: American colonizers slaughtered natives they believed to be evil to steal their land and to "manifest destiny." All goblins being evil brings a bad taste to the mouths of some people. Also, even if they worship the evil god Magubliyet, they can always be atheists or worship another pantheon. Just my two cents.
And those same natives slaughtered other natives who lived on those lands two or three centuries ago. Who also got hat land the same way. That's just how things went in premodern society - every nation for themselves and those who couldn't fend for themselves get eaten. And so is in most DnD worlds, except with more xenophobia, because others are not just different colour/religion/culture, they're entirely different species. When its kill or be killed hippies go extinct in one generation.
Actually, many conflicts between the First Nations were settled by battles of counting coup instead of actual bloodshed. And they often settler conflicts without combat. In fact, when some of the First Nations peoples went to battle the conquistadors, and the conquistadors started killing people, the people’s were horrified by their barbarity.
Think about goblin genocide this way: American colonizers slaughtered natives they believed to be evil to steal their land and to "manifest destiny." All goblins being evil brings a bad taste to the mouths of some people. Also, even if they worship the evil god Magubliyet, they can always be atheists or worship another pantheon. Just my two cents.
And those same natives slaughtered other natives who lived on those lands two or three centuries ago. Who also got hat land the same way. That's just how things went in premodern society - every nation for themselves and those who couldn't fend for themselves get eaten. And so is in most DnD worlds, except with more xenophobia, because others are not just different colour/religion/culture, they're entirely different species. When its kill or be killed hippies go extinct in one generation.
Actually, many conflicts between the First Nations were settled by battles of counting coup instead of actual bloodshed. And they often settler conflicts without combat. In fact, when some of the First Nations peoples went to battle the conquistadors, and the conquistadors started killing people, the people’s were horrified by their barbarity.
This is interesting. I've been taught a lot about the violent deciding conflicts between Natives and Colonists, but not much about Natives against Natives, or the more peaceful conflicts between Colonizers and Natives.
That’s because there weren’t that many. That and the native Americans relied mostly on oral history and art to tell their history, and the colonists took their art and melted it for money, and told them they weren’t allowed to tell their stories for a very long long time. Stories were lost. At the beginning of the colonial era, one of the first empires the conquistadors wiped out apparently only counted coup.
Urth the Thoughtless's mouse icon, and probably my holiday beverages imbibed while reading this thread, have inspired me to consider writing an adaptation of Who Moved My Cheese for segments of the D&D community. The game allows you to fight or not fight whoever you want. While the lore providing backstory to some elements of prior editions is interesting to some, and a site of nostalgia for others, and what drives the imagination of still others, appreciation of that lore just is not a requirement to play the game. The broader range of possibilities engendered by 5e and the "worlds" WotC officially supports arguably encourages its present marketshare of the hobby. And the cool thing about the D&D market is that there's a whole community that keeps the Old School lore going for those who need some support or products beyond their memory.
To go back to Who Moved My Cheese, the variety of ways D&D can be played has changed. To the OP, your game is still included in that variety. As I said, in the present game, you're free to fight whoever you want, but a thread branding a popular mode of playing the game "idiotic" in the title isn't really a stance that engenders sympathy or agreement. It begs the question of your tactics' soundness in the discussion. I mean to go really old school, going berserker wasn't really part of the original game, so all I can gather is that the grievance has been aired yet again.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Urth the Thoughtless's mouse icon, and probably my holiday beverages imbibed while reading this thread, have inspired me to consider writing an adaptation of Who Moved My Cheese for segments of the D&D community. The game allows you to fight or not fight whoever you want. While the lore providing backstory to some elements of prior editions is interesting to some, and a site of nostalgia for others, and what drives the imagination of still others, appreciation of that lore just is not a requirement to play the game. The broader range of possibilities engendered by 5e and the "worlds" WotC officially supports arguably encourages its present marketshare of the hobby. And the cool thing about the D&D market is that there's a whole community that keeps the Old School lore going for those who need some support or products beyond their memory.
To go back to Who Moved My Cheese, the variety of ways D&D can be played has changed. To the OP, your game is still included in that variety. As I said, in the present game, you're free to fight whoever you want, but a thread branding a popular mode of playing the game "idiotic" in the title isn't really a stance that engenders sympathy or agreement. It begs the question of your tactics' soundness in the discussion. I mean to go really old school, going berserker wasn't really part of the original game, so all I can gather is that the grievance has been aired yet again.
Very well said.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
All stars fade. Some stars forever fall. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Homebrew (Mostly Outdated):Magic Items,Monsters,Spells,Subclasses ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- If there was no light, people wouldn't fear the dark.
A good DM would bring consequence for genocides, IMO, good or bad.
I personally don't GM DnD, only play it, but I GM 40k RPG. In Dark Heresy GM is encouraged to show players the horrific results of mercy shown by them few sessions earlier to remind them that Inquisition is brutal and inhumane not y choice but by necessity. As both my DnD GMs started as my 40k players they carried that philosophy into their games, so most of the settings we play are rather grim and dark with gray and black morality. If you like noble-bright rainbow-and-hippies fantasy where people miraculously have modern-days morality in a setting way to dangerous to afford it, you do you, but after playing gritty realism for years it feels so fake I struggle to maintain my suspension of disbelief.
This is a really sad story. To be unable to find fun in something that should be uplifting and encourage us to be our better selves is truly heartbreaking. Wallowing in misery is the very reason I left the World of Darkness games in the past and took up the Sacred Orb of Gygax again, both as a player and as a DM. With all the terrible things going on in the world, I would rather spend my fantasy escapism time in a place where people innately treat each other better than we do and where only the villains are bastards.
I would like everyone to remember a few things:
Find my D&D Beyond articles here
Ok, this thread was already prone to becoming a raging fire without bringing real world conflicts into this.
Overall, I think most people agree, play how you want because that’s ok but don’t enforce some sort of edict that there is a singular, right way to play D&D.
Edit: Thank you Davedamon.
"Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy and taste good with ketchup."
Characters for Tenebris Sine Fine
RoughCoronet's Greater Wills
Except we're not talking about playing "Cowboys & Indians". We're talking about playing "Dungeons & Dragons" where Evil is a manifest and objective force in the Multiverse. Goblins aren't misunderstood natives getting crushed by modern society. Goblins are born Evil. They serve Evil gods. They're not even remotely similar to any native Earth tribe no matter who tells you otherwise or how often you say it.
Oh, the mods made an appearence
: Systems Online : Nikoli_Goodfellow Homebrew : My WIP Homebrew Class :
(\_/)
( u u)
o/ \🥛🍪 Hey, take care of yourself alright?
No, this has to be discussed. Its the only way these sorts of things get resolved. Dumpster fire or not, there is a severe disconnect with branches of the community.
Brooklyn, I don't understand what you are trying to argue. D&D is not a setting; it is a rules system. There is currently no setting that has a sourcebooks that follows the "all goblins are universally evil" mentality. Let people play their own games, and stop creating a problem where one does not exist.
A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
My Improved Lineage System
Applauding noises
: Systems Online : Nikoli_Goodfellow Homebrew : My WIP Homebrew Class :
(\_/)
( u u)
o/ \🥛🍪 Hey, take care of yourself alright?
But that's the point: in 5e, they may have been created by evil gods, but the rules do not say "they are born evil".
They do say that they are predisposed towards evil, they are more likely to be evil.
So, what you are saying is that in your world, the way you play it, you have house ruled that they are all irredeemably evil, without free will and unable to be anything else. That's fine, you may play it that way. Nobody here wants to stop you.
However, you then say that to play the game any other way of idiotic. You are telling everyone that they are playing it wrong, that yours is the one true way, and then wonder why people are getting upset with you...
I think it's important to remember that D&D has moved on a lot from its roots. Here is what the Basic Rules of 5th edition D&D has to say on alignment:
Setting aside any reservations you may have to this approach to alignment, it's quite clear that even races created by evil gods have the capability to be good, even if it is more of a struggle for them. All humanoids have the capability to be mutable with their alignment, and everyone has the potential to be good or evil, albeit each journey being different and possibly more challenging.
As has been said many times in this thread, and a sentiment I couldn't agree with more, D&D is the game you decide to play. Each game is it's own, amazing microcosm of an experience and as long as you and your players are safe and having fun. and no one is getting hurt, there's no wrong way to play D&D. Chase your joy and be excellent to each other.
Find my D&D Beyond articles here
Oh my sweet summer child...
Conversations on the internet don't change anyone's minds and resolve anything.
Threads like this exist as entertainment for us bored nerds and nothing more, so don't work yourself up and bring the marshmallows to fry.
Exactly!
Very well said!
It's really quite simple: It's up to you and your table. It's not up to any of us not at your table.
If people keep insisting another table must play the way they wish, those people are out of luck.
This conversation doesn't make any sense when it should be obvious that the solution is within our own choices and not someone else's.
Human. Male. Possibly. Don't be a divider.
My characters' backgrounds are written like instruction manuals rather than stories. My opinion and preferences don't mean you're wrong.
I am 99.7603% convinced that the digital dice are messing with me. I roll high when nobody's looking and low when anyone else can see.🎲
“It's a bit early to be thinking about an epitaph. No?” will be my epitaph.
Oh my gosh, everyone agreed on something
: Systems Online : Nikoli_Goodfellow Homebrew : My WIP Homebrew Class :
(\_/)
( u u)
o/ \🥛🍪 Hey, take care of yourself alright?
Actually, many conflicts between the First Nations were settled by battles of counting coup instead of actual bloodshed. And they often settler conflicts without combat. In fact, when some of the First Nations peoples went to battle the conquistadors, and the conquistadors started killing people, the people’s were horrified by their barbarity.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
This is interesting. I've been taught a lot about the violent deciding conflicts between Natives and Colonists, but not much about Natives against Natives, or the more peaceful conflicts between Colonizers and Natives.
That’s because there weren’t that many. That and the native Americans relied mostly on oral history and art to tell their history, and the colonists took their art and melted it for money, and told them they weren’t allowed to tell their stories for a very long long time. Stories were lost. At the beginning of the colonial era, one of the first empires the conquistadors wiped out apparently only counted coup.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
Urth the Thoughtless's mouse icon, and probably my holiday beverages imbibed while reading this thread, have inspired me to consider writing an adaptation of Who Moved My Cheese for segments of the D&D community. The game allows you to fight or not fight whoever you want. While the lore providing backstory to some elements of prior editions is interesting to some, and a site of nostalgia for others, and what drives the imagination of still others, appreciation of that lore just is not a requirement to play the game. The broader range of possibilities engendered by 5e and the "worlds" WotC officially supports arguably encourages its present marketshare of the hobby. And the cool thing about the D&D market is that there's a whole community that keeps the Old School lore going for those who need some support or products beyond their memory.
To go back to Who Moved My Cheese, the variety of ways D&D can be played has changed. To the OP, your game is still included in that variety. As I said, in the present game, you're free to fight whoever you want, but a thread branding a popular mode of playing the game "idiotic" in the title isn't really a stance that engenders sympathy or agreement. It begs the question of your tactics' soundness in the discussion. I mean to go really old school, going berserker wasn't really part of the original game, so all I can gather is that the grievance has been aired yet again.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Very well said.
All stars fade. Some stars forever fall.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Homebrew (Mostly Outdated): Magic Items, Monsters, Spells, Subclasses
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If there was no light, people wouldn't fear the dark.
This is a really sad story. To be unable to find fun in something that should be uplifting and encourage us to be our better selves is truly heartbreaking. Wallowing in misery is the very reason I left the World of Darkness games in the past and took up the Sacred Orb of Gygax again, both as a player and as a DM. With all the terrible things going on in the world, I would rather spend my fantasy escapism time in a place where people innately treat each other better than we do and where only the villains are bastards.