First, there's the racial restriction, but most DMs will wave that restriction. However, RAW, it's still an issue for DMs Guild or games with jerk DMs.
Second, the subclass doesn't fit the lore. Look at this picture of an FR Battlerager. Does that armor look like it's "medium armor"? No. It doesn't. It looks like plate armor covered in metallic porcupine spikes. This isn't a huge deal, as Bladesingers in 5e don't fit their lore at all, but it's still an issue, IMO.
Third, if your Constitution and Dexterity modifiers are high enough, the armor you are wearing will actually make you more likely to be hit than if you weren't wearing it. That just feels completely backwards. If you wear armor and use it as a weapon, it should make you have a higher AC than if you weren't wearing armor.
Fourth, the bonus action attack granted by the armor is not good. Only 1d4+Strength modifier? A Berserker gets an extra 1d12+Strength modifier as a bonus action (which will grant you an exhaustion, but it's better than this). A Beast Barbarian with claws gets 1d6+Strength modifier, not requiring a bonus action at all. Any other barbarian that uses a double bladed scimitar will be able to do the exact same thing without needing to wear crappy armor. On top of this, the armor's spikes are nonmagical, which makes them awful at later levels, can't become +X weapons, and don't scale at all if your Strength modifier is maxed out. It's just really bad.
Fifth, the extra damage from grappling sucks, it should either be 1d4+Strength or damage equal to your proficiency bonus/Strength modifier, and should be once a turn while you are grappling them. Currently, you grapple someone, they take a tiny bit of damage one time, and don't take any more damage from your porcupine hug unless you break your grapple, which is completely against the point of grappling them!
Sixth, Reckless Abandon's temporary hit points are . . . underwhelming in comparison to all other level 6 barbarian features. In order to get the most use out of this feature, you literally need to take damage every round and continue bating people into attacking you.
Seventh, Battlerager Charge's bonus action dash is competing with your other bonus action options (rage, spiked armor attack, etc) and doesn't improve anything that this subclass is supposed to be able to do.
Eighth, Spiked Retribution is normally just a worse version of the Berserker's version of this feature, unless you are constantly being attacked by hordes of creatures, in which case it is still not that good.
It's not good. It's normally better than playing a no-subclass barbarian, but barely. Against certain enemies, you may as well just play a Berserker or Barbarian without a subclass.
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While you won't get it from any random magic item tables, there's nothing forbidding magic spiked armor. Or just magic spikes that attach themselves to any armor. Not that I have any idea why spiked armor is a key feature of the battlerager in the first place (honestly, wearing spiky armor is more what I'd consider an Oathbreaker thing). It's certainly very different from the (distinctive, if horribly overpowered as first published) 4th edition Battlerager.
While you won't get it from any random magic item tables, there's nothing forbidding magic spiked armor.
I never said the armor couldn't be magical, but the attacks it deals will never be magical, which is a huge issue (especially at later levels). IMO, +3 Spiked Armor should grant you a +3 to attack and damage rolls with its bonus action attack, making the damage be magical.
Or just magic spikes that attach themselves to any armor. Not that I have any idea why spiked armor is a key feature of the battlerager in the first place (honestly, wearing spiky armor is more what I'd consider an Oathbreaker thing). It's certainly very different from the (distinctive, if horribly overpowered as first published) 4th edition Battlerager.
I don't know what the 4e battlerager was like, but I do agree that there shouldn't be a subclass focusing around having spiked armor. That should just be an armor type anyone can have access to. There should be a "Juggernaut" barbarian subclass that would include this subclass and allow barbarians to wear heavy armor and rage, while charging through enemies and stuff.
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While you won't get it from any random magic item tables, there's nothing forbidding magic spiked armor.
I never said the armor couldn't be magical, but the attacks it deals will never be magical
Yeah they will be. If you have an ability to use armor as a weapon, it's a magic weapon. Heck, just using a magic item as an improvised weapon still counts as a magic weapon.
While you won't get it from any random magic item tables, there's nothing forbidding magic spiked armor.
I never said the armor couldn't be magical, but the attacks it deals will never be magical
Yeah they will be. If you have an ability to use armor as a weapon, it's a magic weapon. Heck, just using a magic item as an improvised weapon still counts as a magic weapon.
No. Magic weapons count as magic weapons. If you make an improvised weapon attack with a potion of healing, its damage is not magical. Though the armor may be magical, its weapon attacks won't be for the purpose of ignoring damage resistance and immunity.
Once again, we have run afoul of pointlessly bad Rules-as-Written, in which things that should logically happen, don't. See also: Poisons that don't inflict the Poisoned condition...
While you won't get it from any random magic item tables, there's nothing forbidding magic spiked armor.
I never said the armor couldn't be magical, but the attacks it deals will never be magical
Yeah they will be. If you have an ability to use armor as a weapon, it's a magic weapon. Heck, just using a magic item as an improvised weapon still counts as a magic weapon.
No. Magic weapons count as magic weapons. If you make an improvised weapon attack with a potion of healing, its damage is not magical. Though the armor may be magical, its weapon attacks won't be for the purpose of ignoring damage resistance and immunity.
An improvised weapon is a weapon. A magic item is magical. I can find no rules support or sage advice to support your claim otherwise (there is a crawford tweet, but that's super low on the canon chart). In any case, magic spiked armor would likely have text specifically making the spikes magical, so it's kind of moot.
First, there's the racial restriction, but most DMs will wave that restriction. However, RAW, it's still an issue for DMs Guild or games with jerk DMs.
Fair. It might actually be the only racial restricted subclass left in the game. I wonder if this will be addressed in the future. Maybe in Someone's Something of Everything? God, I hope that's the name of the next book.
Second, the subclass doesn't fit the lore. Look at this picture of an FR Battlerager. Does that armor look like it's "medium armor"? No. It doesn't. It looks like plate armor covered in metallic porcupine spikes. This isn't a huge deal, as Bladesingers in 5e don't fit their lore at all, but it's still an issue, IMO.
That actually doesn't really look like heavy armor either. Medium or heavy, beats me. It could be anything. I don't think it really matters all that much , IMO.
Third, if your Constitution and Dexterity modifiers are high enough, the armor you are wearing will actually make you more likely to be hit than if you weren't wearing it. That just feels completely backwards. If you wear armor and use it as a weapon, it should make you have a higher AC than if you weren't wearing armor.
That requires a total +7 (dex+con) modifier to exceed normal spiked armor which can be offset by +1 armor. I do agree it's silly that your AC could actually be better without armor though. I do think it's a very rare edge case though that will likely never come up with point buy. This problem is actually true for all barbarians though, it is just most noticeable for Battleragers because all the features require wearing armor. Also, just don't build your character where this becomes an issue. You'd actually have to make bad decisions for it to be a detriment. It might be more an issue if you roll for stats but this game has all sorts of issues when rolling for stats.
They should definitely errata this though and have it be whatever is better.
Fourth, the bonus action attack granted by the armor is not good. Only 1d4+Strength modifier? A Berserker gets an extra 1d12+Strength modifier as a bonus action (which will grant you an exhaustion, but it's better than this). A Beast Barbarian with claws gets 1d6+Strength modifier, not requiring a bonus action at all. Any other barbarian that uses a double bladed scimitar will be able to do the exact same thing without needing to wear crappy armor. On top of this, the armor's spikes are nonmagical, which makes them awful at later levels, can't become +X weapons, and don't scale at all if your Strength modifier is maxed out. It's just really bad.
The Berserker, as you mention, gives exhaustion so it's probably only going to be used once or twice per adventuring day. That's a fair comparison though and I generally think the Berserker is much better than most people give it credit for. The Beast Barbarian requires you use claws and it takes your attack or extra attack meaning no GWM for those claw attacks. Double bladed scimitar I suppose gets you a 1d4+str attack but again, no GWM there either. The Battlerager can use GWM for the two main attacks and still get this 1d4+str+rage as the bonus action. There is a bonus action economy issue if the Barbarian critically hits, but that's 5% of the time.
I was in an AL game and the DM, who may or may not have been incorrect, said that magical spikes from magical spiked armor are magical weapons, granting the +attack and damage. The rules are silent on it but Mike Mearls agrees. I haven't seen anything from Crawford or any official WoTC source though. It might be RAI. It might not. It's 100% Rule of Fun. I'd certainly allow it at my table and would be pretty surprised if a DM didn't.
Fifth, the extra damage from grappling sucks, it should either be 1d4+Strength or damage equal to your proficiency bonus/Strength modifier, and should be once a turn while you are grappling them. Currently, you grapple someone, they take a tiny bit of damage one time, and don't take any more damage from your porcupine hug unless you break your grapple, which is completely against the point of grappling them!
This is fairly small amount of damage and I agree that it could have been better overall. It definitely should have scaled. Perhaps on the +X of the armor or off the proficiency bonus. This is just one piece of the level 3 feature though. Grappling is already fairly strong and this is a little free damage when you initiate the grapple or knock someone down. It wouldn't have been overpowering to just give 3 damage every round that a target is grappled. It is free damage though and only a part of the feature so I only mostly agree with you.
Sixth, Reckless Abandon's temporary hit points are . . . underwhelming in comparison to all other level 6 barbarian features. In order to get the most use out of this feature, you literally need to take damage every round and continue bating people into attacking you.
I disagree with this. It's free temporary HP EVERY round. If your combat lasts 5 rounds at level 6 with a +3 con mod, that's effectively 15 damage that you didn't take (assuming you took damage every round). That's effectively a 23% increase in HP! Even if combat only lasts 1 round it's 5% extra effective HP. You're the barbarian out in front, and enemies get advantage to attack you meaning it's going to be fairly common that you'll be taking some damage every round. Granted, it doesn't scale amazingly well, but it's better than people give it credit. At level 20, it's only +7 temporary HP, for 40 damage per 5 rounds. Still, that's in increase of 14% effective HP over that duration. Only 2.5% effective HP increase for 1 round though. This all seems fairly good to me. I would rate this at least as good if not better compared to the level 6 features from Paths of the Beast, Berserker, Storm Herald, Totem Warrior, and Wild Magic. The only level 6 features that I think are noticeably better are those from the Paths of the Ancestral Guardian and Zealot.
Seventh, Battlerager Charge's bonus action dash is competing with your other bonus action options (rage, spiked armor attack, etc) and doesn't improve anything that this subclass is supposed to be able to do.
This is somewhat weak, I agree. It's situationally great though. If the enemy is 60 feet away, would you rather just dash and do nothing, or dash and still attack twice? I think it's a rather boring ability and I'd have added something to it. Maybe + 3 damage to any attacks when you take the Dash action. However, I don't think it's a bad feature as is.
Eighth, Spiked Retribution is normally just a worse version of the Berserker's version of this feature, unless you are constantly being attacked by hordes of creatures, in which case it is still not that good.
Well this is situationally true. You mention hordes of creatures. Yes, then the Spike Retribution is better. But it also doesn't take anything and is just free damage which means that it also has potential if a single enemy has lots of attacks. One example: If an Ancient Red Dragon attacks the Barbarian 3 times, and once more with the Legendary action, that's 12 free damage. It's not a ton of free damage, but it's free and you still have your reaction. Battlerager might still get an attack using the reaction. The Berserker would have to use a reaction and hit with an attack in order to do any damage. If there is a situation where the Berserker could have taken an Opportunity Attack, retaliation is basically wasted.
Is it better than the Berserker's Retaliation feature? The answer is at least sometimes. In those times that it's not, it's still a decent feature.
In summation, I think you might be undercutting this subclass. I don't think it's amazing but I don't think it's bad or even the worst subclass.
While you won't get it from any random magic item tables, there's nothing forbidding magic spiked armor.
I never said the armor couldn't be magical, but the attacks it deals will never be magical
Yeah they will be. If you have an ability to use armor as a weapon, it's a magic weapon. Heck, just using a magic item as an improvised weapon still counts as a magic weapon.
No. Magic weapons count as magic weapons. If you make an improvised weapon attack with a potion of healing, its damage is not magical. Though the armor may be magical, its weapon attacks won't be for the purpose of ignoring damage resistance and immunity.
An improvised weapon is a weapon. A magic item is magical. I can find no rules support or sage advice to support your claim otherwise (there is a crawford tweet, but that's super low on the canon chart). In any case, magic spiked armor would likely have text specifically making the spikes magical, so it's kind of moot.
IT'S MAGICAL. It can deal whatever sort of damage you want. Magic spiked armor damn well better deal magical damage - because well..it's magical. And it's spiked. And it's cool!
IT'S MAGICAL. It can deal whatever sort of damage you want. Magic spiked armor damn well better deal magical damage - because well..it's magical. And it's spiked. And it's cool!
I allow it, but I don't think that's RAW. Like I said above, that would be like saying that a potion of healing RAW would count as magical if used for an improvised weapon attack.
IT'S MAGICAL. It can deal whatever sort of damage you want. Magic spiked armor damn well better deal magical damage - because well..it's magical. And it's spiked. And it's cool!
I allow it, but I don't think that's RAW. Like I said above, that would be like saying that a potion of healing RAW would count as magical if used for an improvised weapon attack.
I see no RAW evidence for that being incorrect. Except that, being a liquid, you probably can't use it as a weapon, and the potion bottle is not magical.
Once again, we have run afoul of pointlessly bad Rules-as-Written, in which things that should logically happen, don't. See also: Poisons that don't inflict the Poisoned condition...
If you're houseruling poisons, you're breaking them. Poisoned is a very strong condition. Moreover, poisons and venoms are a very broad category of substances that affect the body in many different ways. Some can cause instant sharp pain while others cause sustained damage/nausea/etc. The poisoned condition is for poisons and similar effects that have lasting effects; not all do.
Fair. It might actually be the only racial restricted subclass left in the game. I wonder if this will be addressed in the future. Maybe in Someone's Something of Everything? God, I hope that's the name of the next book.
Yeah, I was surprised that when they errata'ed the Kobolds and Orcs in Volo's and the Bladesinger in the SCAG that they didn't change the racial restriction here.
Yeah, the Someone's Something to/of Everything formula is getting boring.
That actually doesn't really look like heavy armor either. Medium or heavy, beats me. It could be anything. I don't think it really matters all that much , IMO.
Doesn't matter a ton, but IMO, the subclass should match with the source of its inspiration a bit.
That requires a total +7 (dex+con) modifier to exceed normal spiked armor which can be offset by +1 armor. I do agree it's silly that your AC could actually be better without armor though. I do think it's a very rare edge case though that will likely never come up with point buy. This problem is actually true for all barbarians though, it is just most noticeable for Battleragers because all the features require wearing armor. Also, just don't build your character where this becomes an issue. You'd actually have to make bad decisions for it to be a detriment. It might be more an issue if you roll for stats but this game has all sorts of issues when rolling for stats.
Sure, but there are other magic items that increase your AC while you're not wearing armor (Bracers of Defense, for example). It is difficult to have an AC higher than the armored barbarian with Point Buy/Standard Array, but not impossible, and would be very disappointing to have a lower AC with your main subclass feature than you would without armor.
They should definitely errata this though and have it be whatever is better.
Something like that would work.
The Berserker, as you mention, gives exhaustion so it's probably only going to be used once or twice per adventuring day. That's a fair comparison though and I generally think the Berserker is much better than most people give it credit for. The Beast Barbarian requires you use claws and it takes your attack or extra attack meaning no GWM for those claw attacks. Double bladed scimitar I suppose gets you a 1d4+str attack but again, no GWM there either. The Battlerager can use GWM for the two main attacks and still get this 1d4+str+rage as the bonus action. There is a bonus action economy issue if the Barbarian critically hits, but that's 5% of the time.
Yes, I know about the disadvantages of Berserkers. That's another discussion. I was merely pointing out the damage disparity there. Yes, Beast Barbarian requires you to use your claws for the main attack, but it can add up to higher damage than this barbarian can if you use good combos. GWM is a good feat, but by no means is it the basis for balancing this subclass.
I was in an AL game and the DM, who may or may not have been incorrect, said that magical spikes from magical spiked armor are magical weapons, granting the +attack and damage. The rules are silent on it but Mike Mearls agrees. I haven't seen anything from Crawford or any official WoTC source though. It might be RAI. It might not. It's 100% Rule of Fun. I'd certainly allow it at my table and would be pretty surprised if a DM didn't.
I would definitely allow that, I just don't think that's RAW.
This is fairly small amount of damage and I agree that it could have been better overall. It definitely should have scaled. Perhaps on the +X of the armor or off the proficiency bonus. This is just one piece of the level 3 feature though. Grappling is already fairly strong and this is a little free damage when you initiate the grapple or knock someone down. It wouldn't have been overpowering to just give 3 damage every round that a target is grappled. It is free damage though and only a part of the feature so I only mostly agree with you.
Sure, it's just one part of the level 3 feature, but the first part isn't good either. It wouldn't be OP to grant them an extra 3 damage each turn. The Unarmed Fighting fighting style agrees with me, dealing an average of 2.5 damage to a creature you are grappling to once a round. Something like that would be a good way of fixing this feature.
I disagree with this. It's free temporary HP EVERY round. If your combat lasts 5 rounds at level 6 with a +3 con mod, that's effectively 15 damage that you didn't take (assuming you took damage every round). That's effectively a 23% increase in HP! Even if combat only lasts 1 round it's 5% extra effective HP. You're the barbarian out in front, and enemies get advantage to attack you meaning it's going to be fairly common that you'll be taking some damage every round. Granted, it doesn't scale amazingly well, but it's better than people give it credit. At level 20, it's only +7 temporary HP, for 40 damage per 5 rounds. Still, that's in increase of 14% effective HP over that duration. Only 2.5% effective HP increase for 1 round though. This all seems fairly good to me. I would rate this at least as good if not better compared to the level 6 features from Paths of the Beast, Berserker, Storm Herald, Totem Warrior, and Wild Magic. The only level 6 features that I think are noticeably better are those from the Paths of the Ancestral Guardian and Zealot.
Temporary hit points don't stack, so it's only free THP every round if you don't have the THP left from the last time you used this feature. Yes, you're a melee tank character and are likely to be attacked, but I've seen barbarians go multiple rounds in a row without taking damage. It is better than most other 6th level barbarian features if you are constantly taking damage. If you aren't, this feature is going to be bad.
This is somewhat weak, I agree. It's situationally great though. If the enemy is 60 feet away, would you rather just dash and do nothing, or dash and still attack twice? I think it's a rather boring ability and I'd have added something to it. Maybe + 3 damage to any attacks when you take the Dash action. However, I don't think it's a bad feature as is.
I agree with you. It needs something else to actually be a generally useful ability.
Well this is situationally true.
This is my point. That is exactly my point. Too much about this subclass depends on the situation. The spiked armor is situationally better than being unarmored. The bonus action attack is situationally better than a Beast Barbarian's or GWM's bonus action attack. The strength of the temporary hit points is also situational. The Dash as a bonus action is very, very situationally useful. This feature's usefulness completely depends on the situation. It's fine to have one or two situational abilities, but having every single feature of the subclass being situational is a huge design problem. The Bear Totem Barbarian's resistance to all damage (except psychic) is partially situational, but is way more useful in most situations than 3 temporary hit points once a turn.
In summation, I think you might be undercutting this subclass. I don't think it's amazing but I don't think it's bad or even the worst subclass.
I am being harsh to it, but IMO, it deserves the smack talk I'm giving it. This is a bit off topic. I recommend that we move this discussion to this thread:
IT'S MAGICAL. It can deal whatever sort of damage you want. Magic spiked armor damn well better deal magical damage - because well..it's magical. And it's spiked. And it's cool!
I allow it, but I don't think that's RAW. Like I said above, that would be like saying that a potion of healing RAW would count as magical if used for an improvised weapon attack.
I see no RAW evidence for that being incorrect. Except that, being a liquid, you probably can't use it as a weapon, and the potion bottle is not magical.
RAW is what the rules say that you can do, not what the rules don't say you can't do. The rules don't say that if you use a non-weapon magic item as an improvised weapon it counts as a magic weapon, therefore it does not.
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"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
IT'S MAGICAL. It can deal whatever sort of damage you want. Magic spiked armor damn well better deal magical damage - because well..it's magical. And it's spiked. And it's cool!
I allow it, but I don't think that's RAW. Like I said above, that would be like saying that a potion of healing RAW would count as magical if used for an improvised weapon attack.
I see no RAW evidence for that being incorrect. Except that, being a liquid, you probably can't use it as a weapon, and the potion bottle is not magical.
RAW is what the rules say that you can do, not what the rules don't say you can't do. The rules don't say that if you use a non-weapon magic item as an improvised weapon it counts as a magic weapon, therefore it does not.
If you hit a werewolf with a silver plate, does it take damage? For that matter, the rules don't say if you use a magic weapon it does magic damage.
IT'S MAGICAL. It can deal whatever sort of damage you want. Magic spiked armor damn well better deal magical damage - because well..it's magical. And it's spiked. And it's cool!
I allow it, but I don't think that's RAW. Like I said above, that would be like saying that a potion of healing RAW would count as magical if used for an improvised weapon attack.
I see no RAW evidence for that being incorrect. Except that, being a liquid, you probably can't use it as a weapon, and the potion bottle is not magical.
RAW is what the rules say that you can do, not what the rules don't say you can't do. The rules don't say that if you use a non-weapon magic item as an improvised weapon it counts as a magic weapon, therefore it does not.
If you hit a werewolf with a silver plate, does it take damage?
Sure, but silver isn't magic. If you are a Guardian Armorer with magical Thunder Gauntlets, because they're a part of the armor, does headbutting someone with your helmet up make the unarmed strike count as magical? No, because you didn't use the magic weapon to attack, even if it's a part of the same item.
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First, there's the racial restriction, but most DMs will wave that restriction. However, RAW, it's still an issue for DMs Guild or games with jerk DMs.
Second, the subclass doesn't fit the lore. Look at this picture of an FR Battlerager. Does that armor look like it's "medium armor"? No. It doesn't. It looks like plate armor covered in metallic porcupine spikes. This isn't a huge deal, as Bladesingers in 5e don't fit their lore at all, but it's still an issue, IMO.
Third, if your Constitution and Dexterity modifiers are high enough, the armor you are wearing will actually make you more likely to be hit than if you weren't wearing it. That just feels completely backwards. If you wear armor and use it as a weapon, it should make you have a higher AC than if you weren't wearing armor.
Fourth, the bonus action attack granted by the armor is not good. Only 1d4+Strength modifier? A Berserker gets an extra 1d12+Strength modifier as a bonus action (which will grant you an exhaustion, but it's better than this). A Beast Barbarian with claws gets 1d6+Strength modifier, not requiring a bonus action at all. Any other barbarian that uses a double bladed scimitar will be able to do the exact same thing without needing to wear crappy armor. On top of this, the armor's spikes are nonmagical, which makes them awful at later levels, can't become +X weapons, and don't scale at all if your Strength modifier is maxed out. It's just really bad.
Fifth, the extra damage from grappling sucks, it should either be 1d4+Strength or damage equal to your proficiency bonus/Strength modifier, and should be once a turn while you are grappling them. Currently, you grapple someone, they take a tiny bit of damage one time, and don't take any more damage from your porcupine hug unless you break your grapple, which is completely against the point of grappling them!
Sixth, Reckless Abandon's temporary hit points are . . . underwhelming in comparison to all other level 6 barbarian features. In order to get the most use out of this feature, you literally need to take damage every round and continue bating people into attacking you.
Seventh, Battlerager Charge's bonus action dash is competing with your other bonus action options (rage, spiked armor attack, etc) and doesn't improve anything that this subclass is supposed to be able to do.
Eighth, Spiked Retribution is normally just a worse version of the Berserker's version of this feature, unless you are constantly being attacked by hordes of creatures, in which case it is still not that good.
It's not good. It's normally better than playing a no-subclass barbarian, but barely. Against certain enemies, you may as well just play a Berserker or Barbarian without a subclass.
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While you won't get it from any random magic item tables, there's nothing forbidding magic spiked armor. Or just magic spikes that attach themselves to any armor. Not that I have any idea why spiked armor is a key feature of the battlerager in the first place (honestly, wearing spiky armor is more what I'd consider an Oathbreaker thing). It's certainly very different from the (distinctive, if horribly overpowered as first published) 4th edition Battlerager.
I never said the armor couldn't be magical, but the attacks it deals will never be magical, which is a huge issue (especially at later levels). IMO, +3 Spiked Armor should grant you a +3 to attack and damage rolls with its bonus action attack, making the damage be magical.
I don't know what the 4e battlerager was like, but I do agree that there shouldn't be a subclass focusing around having spiked armor. That should just be an armor type anyone can have access to. There should be a "Juggernaut" barbarian subclass that would include this subclass and allow barbarians to wear heavy armor and rage, while charging through enemies and stuff.
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Yeah they will be. If you have an ability to use armor as a weapon, it's a magic weapon. Heck, just using a magic item as an improvised weapon still counts as a magic weapon.
No. Magic weapons count as magic weapons. If you make an improvised weapon attack with a potion of healing, its damage is not magical. Though the armor may be magical, its weapon attacks won't be for the purpose of ignoring damage resistance and immunity.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
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Once again, we have run afoul of pointlessly bad Rules-as-Written, in which things that should logically happen, don't. See also: Poisons that don't inflict the Poisoned condition...
An improvised weapon is a weapon. A magic item is magical. I can find no rules support or sage advice to support your claim otherwise (there is a crawford tweet, but that's super low on the canon chart). In any case, magic spiked armor would likely have text specifically making the spikes magical, so it's kind of moot.
Fair. It might actually be the only racial restricted subclass left in the game. I wonder if this will be addressed in the future. Maybe in Someone's Something of Everything? God, I hope that's the name of the next book.
That actually doesn't really look like heavy armor either. Medium or heavy, beats me. It could be anything. I don't think it really matters all that much , IMO.
That requires a total +7 (dex+con) modifier to exceed normal spiked armor which can be offset by +1 armor. I do agree it's silly that your AC could actually be better without armor though. I do think it's a very rare edge case though that will likely never come up with point buy. This problem is actually true for all barbarians though, it is just most noticeable for Battleragers because all the features require wearing armor. Also, just don't build your character where this becomes an issue. You'd actually have to make bad decisions for it to be a detriment. It might be more an issue if you roll for stats but this game has all sorts of issues when rolling for stats.
They should definitely errata this though and have it be whatever is better.
The Berserker, as you mention, gives exhaustion so it's probably only going to be used once or twice per adventuring day. That's a fair comparison though and I generally think the Berserker is much better than most people give it credit for. The Beast Barbarian requires you use claws and it takes your attack or extra attack meaning no GWM for those claw attacks. Double bladed scimitar I suppose gets you a 1d4+str attack but again, no GWM there either. The Battlerager can use GWM for the two main attacks and still get this 1d4+str+rage as the bonus action. There is a bonus action economy issue if the Barbarian critically hits, but that's 5% of the time.
I was in an AL game and the DM, who may or may not have been incorrect, said that magical spikes from magical spiked armor are magical weapons, granting the +attack and damage. The rules are silent on it but Mike Mearls agrees. I haven't seen anything from Crawford or any official WoTC source though. It might be RAI. It might not. It's 100% Rule of Fun. I'd certainly allow it at my table and would be pretty surprised if a DM didn't.
This is fairly small amount of damage and I agree that it could have been better overall. It definitely should have scaled. Perhaps on the +X of the armor or off the proficiency bonus. This is just one piece of the level 3 feature though. Grappling is already fairly strong and this is a little free damage when you initiate the grapple or knock someone down. It wouldn't have been overpowering to just give 3 damage every round that a target is grappled. It is free damage though and only a part of the feature so I only mostly agree with you.
I disagree with this. It's free temporary HP EVERY round. If your combat lasts 5 rounds at level 6 with a +3 con mod, that's effectively 15 damage that you didn't take (assuming you took damage every round). That's effectively a 23% increase in HP! Even if combat only lasts 1 round it's 5% extra effective HP. You're the barbarian out in front, and enemies get advantage to attack you meaning it's going to be fairly common that you'll be taking some damage every round. Granted, it doesn't scale amazingly well, but it's better than people give it credit. At level 20, it's only +7 temporary HP, for 40 damage per 5 rounds. Still, that's in increase of 14% effective HP over that duration. Only 2.5% effective HP increase for 1 round though. This all seems fairly good to me. I would rate this at least as good if not better compared to the level 6 features from Paths of the Beast, Berserker, Storm Herald, Totem Warrior, and Wild Magic. The only level 6 features that I think are noticeably better are those from the Paths of the Ancestral Guardian and Zealot.
This is somewhat weak, I agree. It's situationally great though. If the enemy is 60 feet away, would you rather just dash and do nothing, or dash and still attack twice? I think it's a rather boring ability and I'd have added something to it. Maybe + 3 damage to any attacks when you take the Dash action. However, I don't think it's a bad feature as is.
Well this is situationally true. You mention hordes of creatures. Yes, then the Spike Retribution is better. But it also doesn't take anything and is just free damage which means that it also has potential if a single enemy has lots of attacks. One example: If an Ancient Red Dragon attacks the Barbarian 3 times, and once more with the Legendary action, that's 12 free damage. It's not a ton of free damage, but it's free and you still have your reaction. Battlerager might still get an attack using the reaction. The Berserker would have to use a reaction and hit with an attack in order to do any damage. If there is a situation where the Berserker could have taken an Opportunity Attack, retaliation is basically wasted.
Is it better than the Berserker's Retaliation feature? The answer is at least sometimes. In those times that it's not, it's still a decent feature.
In summation, I think you might be undercutting this subclass. I don't think it's amazing but I don't think it's bad or even the worst subclass.
Can you please link the Crawford Tweet?
IT'S MAGICAL. It can deal whatever sort of damage you want. Magic spiked armor damn well better deal magical damage - because well..it's magical. And it's spiked. And it's cool!
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I allow it, but I don't think that's RAW. Like I said above, that would be like saying that a potion of healing RAW would count as magical if used for an improvised weapon attack.
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I see no RAW evidence for that being incorrect. Except that, being a liquid, you probably can't use it as a weapon, and the potion bottle is not magical.
If you're houseruling poisons, you're breaking them. Poisoned is a very strong condition. Moreover, poisons and venoms are a very broad category of substances that affect the body in many different ways. Some can cause instant sharp pain while others cause sustained damage/nausea/etc. The poisoned condition is for poisons and similar effects that have lasting effects; not all do.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
Yeah, I was surprised that when they errata'ed the Kobolds and Orcs in Volo's and the Bladesinger in the SCAG that they didn't change the racial restriction here.
Yeah, the Someone's Something to/of Everything formula is getting boring.
Doesn't matter a ton, but IMO, the subclass should match with the source of its inspiration a bit.
Sure, but there are other magic items that increase your AC while you're not wearing armor (Bracers of Defense, for example). It is difficult to have an AC higher than the armored barbarian with Point Buy/Standard Array, but not impossible, and would be very disappointing to have a lower AC with your main subclass feature than you would without armor.
Something like that would work.
Yes, I know about the disadvantages of Berserkers. That's another discussion. I was merely pointing out the damage disparity there. Yes, Beast Barbarian requires you to use your claws for the main attack, but it can add up to higher damage than this barbarian can if you use good combos. GWM is a good feat, but by no means is it the basis for balancing this subclass.
I would definitely allow that, I just don't think that's RAW.
Sure, it's just one part of the level 3 feature, but the first part isn't good either. It wouldn't be OP to grant them an extra 3 damage each turn. The Unarmed Fighting fighting style agrees with me, dealing an average of 2.5 damage to a creature you are grappling to once a round. Something like that would be a good way of fixing this feature.
Temporary hit points don't stack, so it's only free THP every round if you don't have the THP left from the last time you used this feature. Yes, you're a melee tank character and are likely to be attacked, but I've seen barbarians go multiple rounds in a row without taking damage. It is better than most other 6th level barbarian features if you are constantly taking damage. If you aren't, this feature is going to be bad.
I agree with you. It needs something else to actually be a generally useful ability.
This is my point. That is exactly my point. Too much about this subclass depends on the situation. The spiked armor is situationally better than being unarmored. The bonus action attack is situationally better than a Beast Barbarian's or GWM's bonus action attack. The strength of the temporary hit points is also situational. The Dash as a bonus action is very, very situationally useful. This feature's usefulness completely depends on the situation. It's fine to have one or two situational abilities, but having every single feature of the subclass being situational is a huge design problem. The Bear Totem Barbarian's resistance to all damage (except psychic) is partially situational, but is way more useful in most situations than 3 temporary hit points once a turn.
I am being harsh to it, but IMO, it deserves the smack talk I'm giving it. This is a bit off topic. I recommend that we move this discussion to this thread:
https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/class-forums/barbarian/90332-battlerager-what-happened#c17
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Somehow, Scatterbraind, I think you've missed my point...
RAW is what the rules say that you can do, not what the rules don't say you can't do. The rules don't say that if you use a non-weapon magic item as an improvised weapon it counts as a magic weapon, therefore it does not.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
If you hit a werewolf with a silver plate, does it take damage? For that matter, the rules don't say if you use a magic weapon it does magic damage.
Sure, but silver isn't magic. If you are a Guardian Armorer with magical Thunder Gauntlets, because they're a part of the armor, does headbutting someone with your helmet up make the unarmed strike count as magical? No, because you didn't use the magic weapon to attack, even if it's a part of the same item.
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