There are certainly ability scores that are bad, and others that are too good. Everybody likes Dex, except a few fighters and paladins, and Loxodons (Yes, Yurei, I know you despise them).
Intelligence and Strength are underpowered.
Dexterity and Charisma are overpowered.
Wisdom and Constitution are very useful for everyone, but not needed as much as Dex and Cha.
Dexterity normally determines Armor Class, Ranged Weapon attacks, Finesse Weapons, Initiative, and all the sneaky-acrobatic stuff. Everybody needs this, except people with heavy armor, which is a very small amount of characters. You need Dexterity, and if you don't take it, and aren't wearing heavy armor, then you're basically screwed.
Strength is annoying to have too little of, but there are many easy ways to get around this. Boulder too heavy? Cast a spell to shrink it down. Have too much stuff to carry it all? Use a bag of holding.
Intelligence is very weak as well. The only 4 people who care about it are Artificers, Wizards, Arcane Tricksters, and Eldritch Knights. Basically no one else needs it.
I can see that making Dexterity even more important is a problem. I get it. Everyone needs it, and it's annoying that it's so useful. I just don't think making a super expensive and rare Dex-Longsword breaks the game if it's regulated correctly.
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Not the ones I'm familiar with. A basic human can buy Extra Attack once, and has to use a different limb with each attack. Heh, besides. I've seen videos of some Filipino knife masters landing half a dozen strikes in a second. They're light cuts, but still. Nevertheless, the point was more the idea that both power and finesse have their own ways to contribute to combat and should not be exclusive of each other the way 5e makes them.
There's no difference between eldritch blast and a heavy crossbow. No rebalance is necessary.
I do note that you were completely unwilling to answer the question I posed numerous times about what's wrong with a d6 weapon. I'm just going to assume that you can't answer it because you know there's nothing wrong with it.
What is your deal?!? Fine, there is absolutely nothing wrong with a 1d6 weapon. There is also absolutely nothing wrong with the Rapier.
And wtf does a crossbow have to do with rebalancing Melee Strength attacks against magic?!?
My deal is I dislike power creep when it's not necessary. The game is well balanced as it is, so there's no need to go buffing everything else because one weapon is poorly implemented.
Now that we have established that there's nothing /wrong/ with a d6 weapon we can move on from the fact that rapiers break the balance paradigm that they have set up, and thus are the problem. Rapiers are broken because they break what's otherwise a well designed, balanced system by becoming a one solution to all problems weapon. That's bad. Buffing everything else for <reasons> is also bad. When you look at balance issues, you should /always/ take the least intrusive method possible...that's nerfing the imbalanced rapier (which I've already explained WHY it's imbalanced and will not do so again) not changing everything around it.
Currently, melee and magic are in relative mathematical balance against each other. Str already offers better damage options than dex does which is the point of fighting to deny 2 handed dex weapons. The problem is with one handed weapons. You do not buff every other one handed weapon when mathematically, the numbers look good already. You remove the single outlier (the rapier) and the problem is eliminated without the risk of swinging the pendulum too far in the other direction. Simple, elegant. dex is still quite viable, with a small mathematical advantage to str. Choices are good.
First off, most of the other finesse weapons are also light, which means that they are meant to be dual-wielded. Ergo, a pair of shortswords is 2d6+dex without a fighting style. This is higher than a rapier's damage. There is nothing wrong with a rapier, it is arguably the best with a large multiattack, but until you hit 3 attacks, the d6 light weapons are better.
The 5e weapons table is fine as-is. For the most part the game is relatively well-balanced between damage and utility.
To illustrate: Dex: high-utility, but intentionally low damage
Cha: High utility, very little damage (with a few exceptions)
Str: High damage, low utility
Con: High utility, no damage
Wis: High utility, low damage
Int: intended to be high utility, low damage, but didn't quite work out, but this debate is not about the fact that Int sucks. That is a different problem for another thread
That requires jumping through hoops. Not major ones, but still hoops.
Yes, very large hoops, making them easy to get through. Variant Humans could do this by level 4, while not really having a good bonus to hit.
Any longbow-ranger with sharpshooter and hunter's mark will also do good damage. (I can't believe I'm saying rangers can do good damage. This is normally only good for low levels)
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Wisdom and Constitution are very useful for everyone, but not needed as much as Dex and Cha.
Dexterity normally determines Armor Class, Ranged Weapon attacks, Finesse Weapons, Initiative, and all the sneaky-acrobatic stuff. Everybody needs this, except people with heavy armor, which is a very small amount of characters. You need Dexterity, and if you don't take it, and aren't wearing heavy armor, then you're basically screwed.
Strength is annoying to have too little of, but there are many easy ways to get around this. Boulder too heavy? Cast a spell to shrink it down. Have too much stuff to carry it all? Use a bag of holding.
Intelligence is very weak as well. The only 4 people who care about it are Artificers, Wizards, Arcane Tricksters, and Eldritch Knights. Basically no one else needs it.
I think some of this is pretty campaign/table specific. In games I've played, INT skills are extremely useful. Since most people pretty much treat Investigation as Perception-But-With-INT, a party without INT skills struggles more than a party without WIS skills. And plenty of wizard spells provide alternatives to CHA just like they do STR.
Conversely, CON almost never comes up when I'm playing. Yes, everyone wants a bit of it for HP, but unless you find yourself holding your breath or having a drinking contest multiple times per adventure, you're not rolling CON nearly as often as anything else. And it's the primary stat for *zero* classes. It's 100% passive and basically an HP tax.
Con is less for skills and more for saves, whether you're a caster making a concentration check or you got hit poison, cold damage, or something like a wight's Life Drain.
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"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Con is less for skills and more for saves, whether you're a caster making a concentration check or you got hit poison, cold damage, or something like a wight's Life Drain.
I call for Constitution (Athletics) checks for stuff like long distance running/swimming, and constitution (Intimidation) to no-sell an injury. Constitution is useful for checks too.
Con is less for skills and more for saves, whether you're a caster making a concentration check or you got hit poison, cold damage, or something like a wight's Life Drain.
I call for Constitution (Athletics) checks for stuff like long distance running/swimming, and constitution (Intimidation) to no-sell an injury. Constitution is useful for checks too.
I do this, too. One time, I had a player make a Constitution (Intimidation) check, as they were showing how much pain they could take from a dagger.
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Getting back to the subject of finesse weapons- one weapon in the PHB that ought to have finesse and doesn't; the flail. You don't really need all that much strength to do a lot of damage with a flail, centripetal force takes care of that. But what you do need is to be able to coordinate your strikes so you don't smack yourself with it- there's a lot more dexterity required than with a warhammer.
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"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
During the Renaissance, a not so well known version of a sabre that was popular in modern day Switzerland was made to be two handed. It was very similar to a longsword however single edged. That could work as a finesse alternative, maybe it's only made for honorable warriors in a certain region, that way cost is higher since it's only successfully forged on that area. Otherwise just raising the price wouldn't make much sense since materials aren't being used any more than what would be used on a longsword.
Dmg page 41 I think says use Longsword stats, and I agree since a Katana can be used either one or two handed and it is primarily a slashing weapon. A Tachi would use Scimitar stats while a wakizashi would use shortsword stats and a tanto would use dagger stats, an Odachi would use great sword stats.
I agree with the art part of your response... That said as someone that has train and study for some time with both katanas and longswords.You could make the argument that both are very similar that said katanas have lesser weight making them better for fast strikes... This come from the different styles required to use this weapons so I would say that versatile and finesse fit a katana but not a long sword.
This may just be a personal thing but a finesses weapon that can be wielded with two hands feels weird to me. A finesse weapon is more about precision and if you're swinging it around with two hands, and still using 'finesse' that just doesn't feel right IMO.
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There are certainly ability scores that are bad, and others that are too good. Everybody likes Dex, except a few fighters and paladins, and Loxodons (Yes, Yurei, I know you despise them).
Intelligence and Strength are underpowered.
Dexterity and Charisma are overpowered.
Wisdom and Constitution are very useful for everyone, but not needed as much as Dex and Cha.
Dexterity normally determines Armor Class, Ranged Weapon attacks, Finesse Weapons, Initiative, and all the sneaky-acrobatic stuff. Everybody needs this, except people with heavy armor, which is a very small amount of characters. You need Dexterity, and if you don't take it, and aren't wearing heavy armor, then you're basically screwed.
Strength is annoying to have too little of, but there are many easy ways to get around this. Boulder too heavy? Cast a spell to shrink it down. Have too much stuff to carry it all? Use a bag of holding.
Intelligence is very weak as well. The only 4 people who care about it are Artificers, Wizards, Arcane Tricksters, and Eldritch Knights. Basically no one else needs it.
I can see that making Dexterity even more important is a problem. I get it. Everyone needs it, and it's annoying that it's so useful. I just don't think making a super expensive and rare Dex-Longsword breaks the game if it's regulated correctly.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
Not the ones I'm familiar with. A basic human can buy Extra Attack once, and has to use a different limb with each attack. Heh, besides. I've seen videos of some Filipino knife masters landing half a dozen strikes in a second. They're light cuts, but still. Nevertheless, the point was more the idea that both power and finesse have their own ways to contribute to combat and should not be exclusive of each other the way 5e makes them.
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First off, most of the other finesse weapons are also light, which means that they are meant to be dual-wielded. Ergo, a pair of shortswords is 2d6+dex without a fighting style. This is higher than a rapier's damage. There is nothing wrong with a rapier, it is arguably the best with a large multiattack, but until you hit 3 attacks, the d6 light weapons are better.
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The 5e weapons table is fine as-is. For the most part the game is relatively well-balanced between damage and utility.
To illustrate: Dex: high-utility, but intentionally low damage
Cha: High utility, very little damage (with a few exceptions)
Str: High damage, low utility
Con: High utility, no damage
Wis: High utility, low damage
Int: intended to be high utility, low damage, but didn't quite work out, but this debate is not about the fact that Int sucks. That is a different problem for another thread
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Tell the Crossbow-Expert Sharpshooting Battlemaster (or any gun/bow user) that Dex is intentionally made to do low damage and they'll start laughing.
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That requires jumping through hoops. Not major ones, but still hoops.
I exist, and I guess so does this
Yes, very large hoops, making them easy to get through. Variant Humans could do this by level 4, while not really having a good bonus to hit.
Any longbow-ranger with sharpshooter and hunter's mark will also do good damage. (I can't believe I'm saying rangers can do good damage. This is normally only good for low levels)
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
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There is a reason that the -5/+10 feats are considered to be some of the best
I exist, and I guess so does this
I think some of this is pretty campaign/table specific. In games I've played, INT skills are extremely useful. Since most people pretty much treat Investigation as Perception-But-With-INT, a party without INT skills struggles more than a party without WIS skills. And plenty of wizard spells provide alternatives to CHA just like they do STR.
Conversely, CON almost never comes up when I'm playing. Yes, everyone wants a bit of it for HP, but unless you find yourself holding your breath or having a drinking contest multiple times per adventure, you're not rolling CON nearly as often as anything else. And it's the primary stat for *zero* classes. It's 100% passive and basically an HP tax.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
Con is less for skills and more for saves, whether you're a caster making a concentration check or you got hit poison, cold damage, or something like a wight's Life Drain.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
I call for Constitution (Athletics) checks for stuff like long distance running/swimming, and constitution (Intimidation) to no-sell an injury. Constitution is useful for checks too.
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I do this, too. One time, I had a player make a Constitution (Intimidation) check, as they were showing how much pain they could take from a dagger.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
Getting back to the subject of finesse weapons- one weapon in the PHB that ought to have finesse and doesn't; the flail. You don't really need all that much strength to do a lot of damage with a flail, centripetal force takes care of that. But what you do need is to be able to coordinate your strikes so you don't smack yourself with it- there's a lot more dexterity required than with a warhammer.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Can you remove the versatile weapon property from a longsword that already has that property?
"A river cuts through rock, not because of its power, but because of its persistence."
Modifier: Ignore weapon property
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During the Renaissance, a not so well known version of a sabre that was popular in modern day Switzerland was made to be two handed. It was very similar to a longsword however single edged. That could work as a finesse alternative, maybe it's only made for honorable warriors in a certain region, that way cost is higher since it's only successfully forged on that area. Otherwise just raising the price wouldn't make much sense since materials aren't being used any more than what would be used on a longsword.
Dmg page 41 I think says use Longsword stats, and I agree since a Katana can be used either one or two handed and it is primarily a slashing weapon. A Tachi would use Scimitar stats while a wakizashi would use shortsword stats and a tanto would use dagger stats, an Odachi would use great sword stats.
I agree with the art part of your response... That said as someone that has train and study for some time with both katanas and longswords.You could make the argument that both are very similar that said katanas have lesser weight making them better for fast strikes... This come from the different styles required to use this weapons so I would say that versatile and finesse fit a katana but not a long sword.
This may just be a personal thing but a finesses weapon that can be wielded with two hands feels weird to me. A finesse weapon is more about precision and if you're swinging it around with two hands, and still using 'finesse' that just doesn't feel right IMO.