The party are going to face some Hobgoblin Iron Shadows on a forest covered road. If the Hobgoblin uses its actions to attack with darts then uses its shadow jaunt ability to move the 30ft away, how would you determine if the pc's can attack the hobgoblin or just there is attacked from? Ie is it a case of perception check or just say they aim at the space but miss anyway as they are not there anymore?
The Hobgoblins make a Stealth check to hide, contested by the PCs passive perception. If successful, they gain a surprise round against the PCs.
Assuming that they were successful, the Hobgoblins attack with advantage in a surprise round. They are no longer hidden. They make their attack, and then use their bonus action to Shadow Jaunt away. The Hobgoblins are fully visible to the PCs, unless their movement or Shadow Jaunt carries them to a place where they are completely out of sight of the PCs.
Everyone rolls initiative. The Hobgoblins are no longer hidden, therefore a PC who moves into line of sight of them will see them unless the Hobgoblins go before them and use their action to Hide again.
So in short, there is no reason for the PCs to automatically miss the hobgoblins, and because the Hobgoblins break their Hidden status by attacking, the PCs will see them and see them use Shadow Jaunt (unless they cannot see them for some other reason).
Something to consider about running an encounter like this: is there anything fun about being attacked in a surprise round and then the enemy instantaneously teleporting away before the PCs get to respond? This is somewhat similar to just assigning damage to the PCs at random. That's why you have to require the Hobs to make a Stealth check to Hide - they cannot automatically, and repeatedly, be able to effectively attack as though invisible.
Actually you should roll initiative before the hobgoblins first attack. The surprised players can not move or take actions on their first turn and can not take reactions until after their turn is completed. This mater for a number of reasons foe example
Some players, e.g. one with the alert feat may not be surprised
Players can only use their reaction after their first turn is complete. For example a monk would be able to use deflect missiles or a wizard cast shield during the first round of combat only if they have had their turn in the initiative order.
Keep in mind that the rules make it very difficult to hide in combat. You need to spend an action, you need sufficient cover, and you need to succeed on your stealth check. Otherwise, everyone knows where you are.
You can describe this however you like. A BAMF! sound when they reappear, a ripple in the weave, rainbow sparkles, or just the thud of boots hitting the ground, but at any rate the creature should be fully perceptible unless they have a specific class feature that overrides the general rules.
Um... Also, Phase door, Shadow Step, and other 'blink' type abilities in a forested area, aren't perfect abilities. The Hobs have to reacquire the party location, and probably are at a different, more difficult range for missile attacks... they aren't guaranteed to have a clear shot after they move.
Elves and half-elves used to have a bonus in archery, and along with Rangers aren't easy to surprise. Spellcasters have bind type spells, like Entangle (which I think is also a Ranger spell), and Humanoids probably know to be wary of "Hold Person". Let's see [some of these might have been mentioned already...] mirror image spells, Sanctuary spells to heal the wounded, Bless (to boost party missile attacks), Mages familiars like owls and crows can tell the party where their attackers are hiding,
Honestly, it's an encounter you want to players to figure out how to beat while it's Hobgoblins, and not Drow in the underdark or Giants on a mountain path throwing boulders from high ground. The shadow step just makes them a little tougher. If you want to give your players more time, have the Hobs use crossbows, which have a slow ROF. A Magic Missile spell is still going to hit automatically... so are the Hobs going to fight to the death? Or hit and run like sensible beings?
It's kind of a textbook example of why parties without Rangers (or Druids) get pummeled by DMs. Kill a couple of the PCs mounts, and injure the PCs, then have the hobs run if one of them gets killed. Then the players can reload their spells, and come up with tactics... while the hobgoblins go to the next prepared ambush location. That way it's a running engagement that requires all of your character classes to detect traps, enemies, avoid surprise, soak up damage while protecting spell casters, and...then root and kill.
if the PCs party lacks the classes to handle a bunch of hobgoblins, you should have some pre-rolled NPC types prepared to fill out their weaknesses (not for FREE, obviously! If they won't budge, kill the low level monks and mages first... Tanks, Healers, Scouts/magic scrying, then DPS types is the rule of thumb for surviving intelligent monsters). Druids animal form at level 2 is a wolf, which the player needs to learn how to role play... i.e. if the hobgoblin steps downwind, it's next shot will be INTO the wind at a steep penalty, so it'll probably go upwind. If it goes upwind, a NPC DOG, or a Druid in wolf form will flag it right away, moves through undergrowth a lot faster than a monk, isn't likely to be the hobs target, and will be latched onto it's throat before it can move or change weapons. If the Players don't have 30gp to buy a dog or their mage doesn't have a familiar... send a plague of thieves and pick pockets after them to convince them to make the investment.
[ever been to cities with gypsy children mobbing tourists? lol. Those big dogs shop owners have lounging around aren't for show... ]
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“Desitutus ventis, remos adhibe” When the Winds fail you, row.
For purposes of the game, once you attack someone, they see you, and unless you round a corner, they’ll still see you, teleport or no. Anyone who disagrees hasn’t tried to deal with a rogue who wants to use Cunning Action to hide every turn. This isn’t Skyrim: everyone can tell where everyone else is. So the PCs can attack the hobgoblin.
For purposes of the game, once you attack someone, they see you, and unless you round a corner, they’ll still see you, teleport or no. Anyone who disagrees hasn’t tried to deal with a rogue who wants to use Cunning Action to hide every turn. This isn’t Skyrim: everyone can tell where everyone else is. So the PCs can attack the hobgoblin.
Pretty much this. Teleportation doesn't make you invisible. Depending on where you end up you might have some sort of cover behind bushes and trees if you are in a forest, though.
I would handle this slightly differently. When the hobgoblin bamphs away make a stealth check, this isn’t for hiding, but it is for being quiet. Test this against the players passive perception and those that have a higher passive perception know exactly where it is, the others have a vague sense of the direction but not exactly where it is.
Keep in mind that the rules make it very difficult to hide in combat. You need to spend an action, you need sufficient cover, and you need to succeed on your stealth check. Otherwise, everyone knows where you are. You can describe this however you like. A BAMF! sound when they reappear, a ripple in the weave, rainbow sparkles, or just the thud of boots hitting the ground, but at any rate the creature should be fully perceptible unless they have a specific class feature that overrides the general rules.
I'm sorry, but there is no such general rule. Nowhere in the rules does it say that everyone knows everyone else's position by default, and that you can only become hidden by doing a stealth check. Yes, you can purposefully try to hide using one, but if I Dimension Door to the other end of the battlefield, behind a wall and closed door and 100 feet from the nearest adversary, there is no reason for him to know I'm there, even if I don't take an action to hide.
Just as there is no reason for a BAMF sound for reappearance (although I agree that there is a casting sound because Dimension Door has a V component, it's at the starting location, not the arrival one). But Shadow Jaunt does not have any verbal requirement.
That being said, because of the other requirements of shadow jaunt, in particular the fact that it must be a space that can be seen by the Iron Shadow and is within 30 feet, there is a high likelihood that he can be heard when landing in its arrival destination, but there is no guarantee.
For example, in the original description, the Iron Shadow could fire his dart (actually four of them with his multi attack), use the bonus action from expeditious retreat to run 40 feet, going through a door and closing it with his free interaction with an object, THEN use shadow jaunt from his multiattack to get into another zone of darkness 30 feet further away. He might be 130 feet away from you, behind a door and in total darkness when he lands.
He might not be totally silent at that point in time, but if you think a rule lets you know where he is, I really would like to know which one...
In my book you would probably know that he ran through a door and closed it. But not more than this.
I would add here that, if he is teleporting to a zone of darkness, unless your characters have reason to know how shadow jaunt works, they have no reason to know this. As far as they are aware he has teleported 100 miles away and is on a beach ordering a tequila laughing about the wizard he just filled with darts.
This is one of the many many situations where you have to combine some common sense with RAW, as defined in every book the designers can’t, and make a point not to state the details of every situation for every ability. But I agree the rules distinctly do not make it hard to hide, if enemy ducks behind a wall, player knows that’s where it last was, but, much like Schrödinger’s cat they have no idea of it is still there, has shifted to the other end of the wall, has ducked down low and run away staying out of sight, or has teleported away to another place.
I will add another caveat to this, if a player steps out fires a bow, steps back and then tells me they hide, that’s fine, but the enemy still knows where the bow was shot from and so oboes that there was a threat in that part of the wood so can blast with an area effect, or move up and try and spot the player.
Keep in mind that the rules make it very difficult to hide in combat. You need to spend an action, you need sufficient cover, and you need to succeed on your stealth check. Otherwise, everyone knows where you are. You can describe this however you like. A BAMF! sound when they reappear, a ripple in the weave, rainbow sparkles, or just the thud of boots hitting the ground, but at any rate the creature should be fully perceptible unless they have a specific class feature that overrides the general rules.
I'm sorry, but there is no such general rule. Nowhere in the rules does it say that everyone knows everyone else's position by default, and that you can only become hidden by doing a stealth check. Yes, you can purposefully try to hide using one, but if I Dimension Door to the other end of the battlefield, behind a wall and closed door and 100 feet from the nearest adversary, there is no reason for him to know I'm there, even if I don't take an action to hide.
Just as there is no reason for a BAMF sound for reappearance (although I agree that there is a casting sound because Dimension Door has a V component, it's at the starting location, not the arrival one). But Shadow Jaunt does not have any verbal requirement.
That being said, because of the other requirements of shadow jaunt, in particular the fact that it must be a space that can be seen by the Iron Shadow and is within 30 feet, there is a high likelihood that he can be heard when landing in its arrival destination, but there is no guarantee.
For example, in the original description, the Iron Shadow could fire his dart (actually four of them with his multi attack), use the bonus action from expeditious retreat to run 40 feet, going through a door and closing it with his free interaction with an object, THEN use shadow jaunt from his multiattack to get into another zone of darkness 30 feet further away. He might be 130 feet away from you, behind a door and in total darkness when he lands.
He might not be totally silent at that point in time, but if you think a rule lets you know where he is, I really would like to know which one...
In my book you would probably know that he ran through a door and closed it. But not more than this.
I would add here that, if he is teleporting to a zone of darkness, unless your characters have reason to know how shadow jaunt works, they have no reason to know this. As far as they are aware he has teleported 100 miles away and is on a beach ordering a tequila laughing about the wizard he just filled with darts.
This is one of the many many situations where you have to combine some common sense with RAW, as defined in every book the designers can’t, and make a point not to state the details of every situation for every ability. But I agree the rules distinctly do not make it hard to hide, if enemy ducks behind a wall, player knows that’s where it last was, but, much like Schrödinger’s cat they have no idea of it is still there, has shifted to the other end of the wall, has ducked down low and run away staying out of sight, or has teleported away to another place.
I will add another caveat to this, if a player steps out fires a bow, steps back and then tells me they hide, that’s fine, but the enemy still knows where the bow was shot from and so oboes that there was a threat in that part of the wood so can blast with an area effect, or move up and try and spot the player.
You’re a more forgiving DM than I am. As far as I’m concerned, attempts to hide in combat don’t work unless you teleport, become invisible, turn a corner, or otherwise vanish with no indication of where you went. The best you can realistically do is duck back behind cover. But since Shadow Jaunt teleports you within sight, it would still not allow for a stealth check in my game: the enemy would know where you went.
Hi,
The party are going to face some Hobgoblin Iron Shadows on a forest covered road. If the Hobgoblin uses its actions to attack with darts then uses its shadow jaunt ability to move the 30ft away, how would you determine if the pc's can attack the hobgoblin or just there is attacked from? Ie is it a case of perception check or just say they aim at the space but miss anyway as they are not there anymore?
Thanks in advance.
It should go as follows:
So in short, there is no reason for the PCs to automatically miss the hobgoblins, and because the Hobgoblins break their Hidden status by attacking, the PCs will see them and see them use Shadow Jaunt (unless they cannot see them for some other reason).
Something to consider about running an encounter like this: is there anything fun about being attacked in a surprise round and then the enemy instantaneously teleporting away before the PCs get to respond? This is somewhat similar to just assigning damage to the PCs at random. That's why you have to require the Hobs to make a Stealth check to Hide - they cannot automatically, and repeatedly, be able to effectively attack as though invisible.
Thanks for the reply, it makes it very clear.
Actually you should roll initiative before the hobgoblins first attack. The surprised players can not move or take actions on their first turn and can not take reactions until after their turn is completed. This mater for a number of reasons foe example
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
Um... Also, Phase door, Shadow Step, and other 'blink' type abilities in a forested area, aren't perfect abilities. The Hobs have to reacquire the party location, and probably are at a different, more difficult range for missile attacks... they aren't guaranteed to have a clear shot after they move.
Elves and half-elves used to have a bonus in archery, and along with Rangers aren't easy to surprise. Spellcasters have bind type spells, like Entangle (which I think is also a Ranger spell), and Humanoids probably know to be wary of "Hold Person". Let's see [some of these might have been mentioned already...] mirror image spells, Sanctuary spells to heal the wounded, Bless (to boost party missile attacks), Mages familiars like owls and crows can tell the party where their attackers are hiding,
Honestly, it's an encounter you want to players to figure out how to beat while it's Hobgoblins, and not Drow in the underdark or Giants on a mountain path throwing boulders from high ground. The shadow step just makes them a little tougher. If you want to give your players more time, have the Hobs use crossbows, which have a slow ROF. A Magic Missile spell is still going to hit automatically... so are the Hobs going to fight to the death? Or hit and run like sensible beings?
It's kind of a textbook example of why parties without Rangers (or Druids) get pummeled by DMs. Kill a couple of the PCs mounts, and injure the PCs, then have the hobs run if one of them gets killed. Then the players can reload their spells, and come up with tactics... while the hobgoblins go to the next prepared ambush location. That way it's a running engagement that requires all of your character classes to detect traps, enemies, avoid surprise, soak up damage while protecting spell casters, and...then root and kill.
if the PCs party lacks the classes to handle a bunch of hobgoblins, you should have some pre-rolled NPC types prepared to fill out their weaknesses (not for FREE, obviously! If they won't budge, kill the low level monks and mages first... Tanks, Healers, Scouts/magic scrying, then DPS types is the rule of thumb for surviving intelligent monsters). Druids animal form at level 2 is a wolf, which the player needs to learn how to role play... i.e. if the hobgoblin steps downwind, it's next shot will be INTO the wind at a steep penalty, so it'll probably go upwind. If it goes upwind, a NPC DOG, or a Druid in wolf form will flag it right away, moves through undergrowth a lot faster than a monk, isn't likely to be the hobs target, and will be latched onto it's throat before it can move or change weapons. If the Players don't have 30gp to buy a dog or their mage doesn't have a familiar... send a plague of thieves and pick pockets after them to convince them to make the investment.
[ever been to cities with gypsy children mobbing tourists? lol. Those big dogs shop owners have lounging around aren't for show... ]
“Desitutus ventis, remos adhibe”
When the Winds fail you, row.
For purposes of the game, once you attack someone, they see you, and unless you round a corner, they’ll still see you, teleport or no. Anyone who disagrees hasn’t tried to deal with a rogue who wants to use Cunning Action to hide every turn. This isn’t Skyrim: everyone can tell where everyone else is. So the PCs can attack the hobgoblin.
Wizard (Gandalf) of the Tolkien Club
Pretty much this. Teleportation doesn't make you invisible. Depending on where you end up you might have some sort of cover behind bushes and trees if you are in a forest, though.
I would handle this slightly differently. When the hobgoblin bamphs away make a stealth check, this isn’t for hiding, but it is for being quiet. Test this against the players passive perception and those that have a higher passive perception know exactly where it is, the others have a vague sense of the direction but not exactly where it is.
I would add here that, if he is teleporting to a zone of darkness, unless your characters have reason to know how shadow jaunt works, they have no reason to know this. As far as they are aware he has teleported 100 miles away and is on a beach ordering a tequila laughing about the wizard he just filled with darts.
This is one of the many many situations where you have to combine some common sense with RAW, as defined in every book the designers can’t, and make a point not to state the details of every situation for every ability. But I agree the rules distinctly do not make it hard to hide, if enemy ducks behind a wall, player knows that’s where it last was, but, much like Schrödinger’s cat they have no idea of it is still there, has shifted to the other end of the wall, has ducked down low and run away staying out of sight, or has teleported away to another place.
I will add another caveat to this, if a player steps out fires a bow, steps back and then tells me they hide, that’s fine, but the enemy still knows where the bow was shot from and so oboes that there was a threat in that part of the wood so can blast with an area effect, or move up and try and spot the player.
You’re a more forgiving DM than I am. As far as I’m concerned, attempts to hide in combat don’t work unless you teleport, become invisible, turn a corner, or otherwise vanish with no indication of where you went. The best you can realistically do is duck back behind cover. But since Shadow Jaunt teleports you within sight, it would still not allow for a stealth check in my game: the enemy would know where you went.
Wizard (Gandalf) of the Tolkien Club