My PCs have come under attack from a band of hobgoblin raiders, who (being hobgoblins) I'm trying to play more strategically than brutish. So half the hobgoblin raiders are charging at the PCs with swords drawn, while the other half are at max longbow range to rain arrows down on the PCs/their campsite. Since the arrows are imprecise for that (the archers aren't targeting a specific person) I don't think I should just roll hit dice and see who gets hit or not based on AC.
How I did this before is when the PCs were running and having javelins thrown at them the javelins were 1) rolled at disadvantage, and 2) PCs made a dex save, and whoever beat the javelin hit roll was not hit. If more PCs failed than there were javelins I just went bottom-up in rolls to see who actually took damage.
Thoughts on this, or improvements as they might apply to arrows? Until the archers are engaged or ordered to engage I figure to keep them out of initiative and at the start of each round they lob their arrows, and so all PCs (and I suppose anyone else in the killbox) make a DEX save. There are some noncombatants and allied NPCs in the killbox too so I will have to roll for them I suppose.
Yeah, I would just have everyone roll Dex saves against a DC of 8 + the archers’ proficiency bonus + the archers’ Dex bonus. If anyone fails, they take the longbow damage.
[EDIT] Also maybe if they fail by 5 or more, they take two hits?
The player character's best bet would be to try and escape. Hobgoblins approach battles the way professional soldiers do wars. The Hobgoblins are clearly prepared to fight, and there are quite a few of them. Way more than double the party and all their allies. If the characters run, let them. No arrows have been fired as yet. If they stay you are likely to see a Total Party Kill.
If the player characters fight, you will need to roll every single hit, since you are likely to get arguments if the characters don't get every possible advantage they might get.
My gut response is to treat the large number of arrows like the effect of the Conjure Barrage or Conjure Volley spell (albeit nonmagical in nature). Make the "spell save DC" something appropriate for the archers' skill (drawing inspiration from what you said, maybe make the DC = 8 + whatever bonus their stats give them to hit with a longbow. for example if the stat block gives them a +7, the save DC would be 15)
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Honestly, there is already a mechanic for longbows at max range. You aim at a target and roll with disadvantage. We're not talking about an army here, right? I'd just roll em.
You could do it like an environmental hazard with DEX saves, but the cleric in full plate with his shield over his head is probably gonna be annoyed that these arrows somehow hit him easier than one fired from 20 feet away.
Realistically, volley fire at locations is for armies, not for squad level conflicts. I would just make attacks at disadvantage. However, combining a charge with arrows from 600' away is not good tactics anyway, suppression fire isn't all that significant for PC level conflicts with bows.
I like Geann's observation. If the Hobgoblins chose to take this opportunity to attack, then it would be reasonable for the PCs to need to flee. The first rule of warfare is never start a fight you haven't already won, unless you are desperate. A band of Hobgoblins should outclass the party if they chose to attack.
But to the OP, I think just running it as "shoots with disadvantage" is the best way to go. How would you handle it if the players were attacking an enemy under similar conditions? The books say "attacks with disadvantage."
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Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt
To clarify and inform some of the comments here: the PCs took a contract to escort a caravan and the caravan got marked and hit by the raiders. They first wave was a squad of bugbears who they killed but 2 of the 6 PCs are in rough shape and 1 of the 6 is like half-health. The Hobgoblin captain (who was secretly overseeing the whole attack; the PCs failed and/or didn't make the rolls needed to pick up on that, but they did intuit that there was planning involved) and squad of hobgoblin soldiers are now the second wave. I want this to be hard, even deadly, but survivable; still, TPK is a possibility. The PCs have no good healers, and have access to a hireling NPC I made for them who's overpowered for healing but they didn't take. (And, some of this was just bad luck - I made 6 encounter possibilities for them on this caravan escort, and the one they rolled for is probably the heaviest-hitting).
5 NPC allies, 6 PCs, 6 noncombatant caravaneers
3 Hobgoblin swords, 3 Hobgoblin archers at max range (150 feet in the woods so really hard to see), 1 Hob Captain, 1 Giant Hyena.
If the PCs manage to kill the melee soldiers, the Hobgoblin captain, and his pet Giant Hyena – the archers will fall back. The Captain might fall back as well if the battle turns against them. This is a raid after all, not a war.
RE Raining Arrows - thanks for the feedback! Sounds like either a 1) fixed DC, not terribly high, or 2) disadvantage roll for archers + DEX saves is the way to go. I want to make it hard for the arrows to hit but for the arrows to be an obstacle for everyone, to put the fear of death in these PCs. I don't want a TPK for them, but, like, that shit can happen. This is the second time where they went out without thinking about heals beyond 1 common health pot apiece, and the first time I had the big baddie disengage before they all died. BUT I don't want to be that guy who's like mean to his friends
11 allies and 6 player characters against 8 enemies? The Hobgoblins don't have a prayer. Three archers doesn't make a "rain" of arrows. More like a light drizzle. Hobgoblins are intelligent critters. I don't see why they would bother trying to attack.
11 allies and 6 player characters against 8 enemies? The Hobgoblins don't have a prayer. Three archers doesn't make a "rain" of arrows. More like a light drizzle. Hobgoblins are intelligent critters. I don't see why they would bother trying to attack.
Only 5 allies, I assume noncombatant means noncombatant. For low level PCs that could be a problematic fight.
11 allies and 6 player characters against 8 enemies? The Hobgoblins don't have a prayer. Three archers doesn't make a "rain" of arrows. More like a light drizzle. Hobgoblins are intelligent critters. I don't see why they would bother trying to attack.
Yeah, I was under the impressing that you were trying to simulate a volley of, like, 20 archers. Geann’s comment here is spot on. If you’re trying to play these hobgoblins as strategic, they’re just not going to try at all.
11 allies and 6 player characters against 8 enemies? The Hobgoblins don't have a prayer. Three archers doesn't make a "rain" of arrows. More like a light drizzle. Hobgoblins are intelligent critters. I don't see why they would bother trying to attack.
Only 5 allies, I assume noncombatant means noncombatant. For low level PCs that could be a problematic fight.
Even non-combatants will usually fight for their lives. Supposing they are total pacifists, they can still soak up some of the rain. With three arrows, 5 people can soak up all the rain and leave two of the people left over. Instead of 17 total combatants on one side, you have 11 total combatants on one side, you have 8 total on the other, and that's still three more than the Hobgoblins have.
I see no mention of the horses. There ought to be some of those. The Hobgoblin leader has a mount. So there's even more non-combatants to soak up the rain.
I appreciate some of the thoughts here but the direction has gone off into "wait why are they being attacked" – which isn't something I asked the group about – and away from "how should I make this mechanic work" which is what I had asked.
You all are, of course, free to play your games however you like. Whether or not my Hobgoblins would attack, or not attack, or are mounted, or are not mounted, or have +1 bows and longswords, or have reserves I can throw in if it's too easy, etc etc is not really the point here. I can easily concoct any number of reasons for why my Hobgoblin captain might want to raid this caravan besides a keen willingness to do so, therein requiring a strategic way to go about it with outnumbered forces. Revenge, knowledge of a particular item in the caravan worth risking for, shits and giggles, an even larger multi-stage harry to weaken the caravan/my PCs over time. Retreat is one good strategic choice, but it is not the only one and perhaps this Hobgob Captain has yet to foreclose on getting some prizes. Or maybe he's a cocksure moron. Possibilities are endless, which is why I didn't ask for that.
So whether it's a "drizzle" or a "rain" of arrows, the mechanic is the same; the degree is up to me. I think I have what I need to make this work, so thanks everyone for their part in this discussion.
If you wanted an answer about mechanics, you got one. Roll for each and every arrow. With the number involved, that shouldn't take long. For further information, a different forum might be more to your liking.
1) With enough archers, use the “handling mobs” rule in the DMG. To simulate long range disadvantage, add 4 to the “d20 roll needed to hit”. Target only one character per round and have all of the archers target that person.
2) Use terrain. Of the targets on the battlefield, only target the ones without cover. So, for example, if the archers are to the west, then anyone standing east of a tree or obstacle, is not part of the randomly selected targets.
3) Include civilians in this battle, so the PCs have to order them to safety.
4) Don’t tell them the direction the arrows are coming from until they ask. Once they know the direction, they can use the terrain more easily. Before they ask though, don’t tell them how you’re choosing who gets hit each round.
5) Once they’ve kept out of the path and no one is in sight, change to a “readied action” mechanic - no arrows come in, but will trigger once per round for the first person that tries to jump from cover to cover.
6) Once the battle seems locked in and archers don’t get to fire they’ll join the assault. It’ll take 10 rounds for the archers to engage. If they kill the main force, end the battle but keep track of time. If the players show that they’re concerned about the archers after battle is over, let them set up an ambush. If they don’t, the archers ambush them!
My PCs have come under attack from a band of hobgoblin raiders, who (being hobgoblins) I'm trying to play more strategically than brutish. So half the hobgoblin raiders are charging at the PCs with swords drawn, while the other half are at max longbow range to rain arrows down on the PCs/their campsite. Since the arrows are imprecise for that (the archers aren't targeting a specific person) I don't think I should just roll hit dice and see who gets hit or not based on AC.
How I did this before is when the PCs were running and having javelins thrown at them the javelins were 1) rolled at disadvantage, and 2) PCs made a dex save, and whoever beat the javelin hit roll was not hit. If more PCs failed than there were javelins I just went bottom-up in rolls to see who actually took damage.
Thoughts on this, or improvements as they might apply to arrows? Until the archers are engaged or ordered to engage I figure to keep them out of initiative and at the start of each round they lob their arrows, and so all PCs (and I suppose anyone else in the killbox) make a DEX save. There are some noncombatants and allied NPCs in the killbox too so I will have to roll for them I suppose.
Yeah, I would just have everyone roll Dex saves against a DC of 8 + the archers’ proficiency bonus + the archers’ Dex bonus. If anyone fails, they take the longbow damage.
[EDIT] Also maybe if they fail by 5 or more, they take two hits?
The player character's best bet would be to try and escape. Hobgoblins approach battles the way professional soldiers do wars. The Hobgoblins are clearly prepared to fight, and there are quite a few of them. Way more than double the party and all their allies. If the characters run, let them. No arrows have been fired as yet. If they stay you are likely to see a Total Party Kill.
If the player characters fight, you will need to roll every single hit, since you are likely to get arguments if the characters don't get every possible advantage they might get.
<Insert clever signature here>
My gut response is to treat the large number of arrows like the effect of the Conjure Barrage or Conjure Volley spell (albeit nonmagical in nature). Make the "spell save DC" something appropriate for the archers' skill (drawing inspiration from what you said, maybe make the DC = 8 + whatever bonus their stats give them to hit with a longbow. for example if the stat block gives them a +7, the save DC would be 15)
Four-time Judge of the Competition of the Finest Brews! Come join us in making fun, unique homebrew and voting for your favorite entries!
Honestly, there is already a mechanic for longbows at max range. You aim at a target and roll with disadvantage. We're not talking about an army here, right? I'd just roll em.
You could do it like an environmental hazard with DEX saves, but the cleric in full plate with his shield over his head is probably gonna be annoyed that these arrows somehow hit him easier than one fired from 20 feet away.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
Realistically, volley fire at locations is for armies, not for squad level conflicts. I would just make attacks at disadvantage. However, combining a charge with arrows from 600' away is not good tactics anyway, suppression fire isn't all that significant for PC level conflicts with bows.
I like Geann's observation. If the Hobgoblins chose to take this opportunity to attack, then it would be reasonable for the PCs to need to flee. The first rule of warfare is never start a fight you haven't already won, unless you are desperate. A band of Hobgoblins should outclass the party if they chose to attack.
But to the OP, I think just running it as "shoots with disadvantage" is the best way to go. How would you handle it if the players were attacking an enemy under similar conditions? The books say "attacks with disadvantage."
Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt
To clarify and inform some of the comments here: the PCs took a contract to escort a caravan and the caravan got marked and hit by the raiders. They first wave was a squad of bugbears who they killed but 2 of the 6 PCs are in rough shape and 1 of the 6 is like half-health. The Hobgoblin captain (who was secretly overseeing the whole attack; the PCs failed and/or didn't make the rolls needed to pick up on that, but they did intuit that there was planning involved) and squad of hobgoblin soldiers are now the second wave. I want this to be hard, even deadly, but survivable; still, TPK is a possibility. The PCs have no good healers, and have access to a hireling NPC I made for them who's overpowered for healing but they didn't take. (And, some of this was just bad luck - I made 6 encounter possibilities for them on this caravan escort, and the one they rolled for is probably the heaviest-hitting).
5 NPC allies, 6 PCs, 6 noncombatant caravaneers
3 Hobgoblin swords, 3 Hobgoblin archers at max range (150 feet in the woods so really hard to see), 1 Hob Captain, 1 Giant Hyena.
If the PCs manage to kill the melee soldiers, the Hobgoblin captain, and his pet Giant Hyena – the archers will fall back. The Captain might fall back as well if the battle turns against them. This is a raid after all, not a war.
RE Raining Arrows - thanks for the feedback! Sounds like either a 1) fixed DC, not terribly high, or 2) disadvantage roll for archers + DEX saves is the way to go. I want to make it hard for the arrows to hit but for the arrows to be an obstacle for everyone, to put the fear of death in these PCs. I don't want a TPK for them, but, like, that shit can happen. This is the second time where they went out without thinking about heals beyond 1 common health pot apiece, and the first time I had the big baddie disengage before they all died. BUT I don't want to be that guy who's like mean to his friends
11 allies and 6 player characters against 8 enemies? The Hobgoblins don't have a prayer. Three archers doesn't make a "rain" of arrows. More like a light drizzle. Hobgoblins are intelligent critters. I don't see why they would bother trying to attack.
<Insert clever signature here>
Only 5 allies, I assume noncombatant means noncombatant. For low level PCs that could be a problematic fight.
Yeah, I was under the impressing that you were trying to simulate a volley of, like, 20 archers. Geann’s comment here is spot on. If you’re trying to play these hobgoblins as strategic, they’re just not going to try at all.
Even non-combatants will usually fight for their lives. Supposing they are total pacifists, they can still soak up some of the rain. With three arrows, 5 people can soak up all the rain and leave two of the people left over. Instead of 17 total combatants on one side, you have 11 total combatants on one side, you have 8 total on the other, and that's still three more than the Hobgoblins have.
I see no mention of the horses. There ought to be some of those. The Hobgoblin leader has a mount. So there's even more non-combatants to soak up the rain.
<Insert clever signature here>
I appreciate some of the thoughts here but the direction has gone off into "wait why are they being attacked" – which isn't something I asked the group about – and away from "how should I make this mechanic work" which is what I had asked.
You all are, of course, free to play your games however you like. Whether or not my Hobgoblins would attack, or not attack, or are mounted, or are not mounted, or have +1 bows and longswords, or have reserves I can throw in if it's too easy, etc etc is not really the point here. I can easily concoct any number of reasons for why my Hobgoblin captain might want to raid this caravan besides a keen willingness to do so, therein requiring a strategic way to go about it with outnumbered forces. Revenge, knowledge of a particular item in the caravan worth risking for, shits and giggles, an even larger multi-stage harry to weaken the caravan/my PCs over time. Retreat is one good strategic choice, but it is not the only one and perhaps this Hobgob Captain has yet to foreclose on getting some prizes. Or maybe he's a cocksure moron. Possibilities are endless, which is why I didn't ask for that.
So whether it's a "drizzle" or a "rain" of arrows, the mechanic is the same; the degree is up to me. I think I have what I need to make this work, so thanks everyone for their part in this discussion.
If you wanted an answer about mechanics, you got one. Roll for each and every arrow. With the number involved, that shouldn't take long. For further information, a different forum might be more to your liking.
<Insert clever signature here>
I would run it this way:
1) With enough archers, use the “handling mobs” rule in the DMG. To simulate long range disadvantage, add 4 to the “d20 roll needed to hit”. Target only one character per round and have all of the archers target that person.
2) Use terrain. Of the targets on the battlefield, only target the ones without cover. So, for example, if the archers are to the west, then anyone standing east of a tree or obstacle, is not part of the randomly selected targets.
3) Include civilians in this battle, so the PCs have to order them to safety.
4) Don’t tell them the direction the arrows are coming from until they ask. Once they know the direction, they can use the terrain more easily. Before they ask though, don’t tell them how you’re choosing who gets hit each round.
5) Once they’ve kept out of the path and no one is in sight, change to a “readied action” mechanic - no arrows come in, but will trigger once per round for the first person that tries to jump from cover to cover.
6) Once the battle seems locked in and archers don’t get to fire they’ll join the assault. It’ll take 10 rounds for the archers to engage. If they kill the main force, end the battle but keep track of time. If the players show that they’re concerned about the archers after battle is over, let them set up an ambush. If they don’t, the archers ambush them!