I'm having a bit of a debate with some of my players. I'm running Lost Mines for 4 new players and one somewhat experienced player. I've been using exploration rules from B/X to run dungeons (10 minutes exploration rounds, 120 feet movement per round), since the 5e manuals don't really talk about it. One of the new players and the experienced players do not like exploration rounds, they called them stiff and artificial. How else am I supposed to keep track of time in a dungeon? How do you run your dungeons?
I deal with it in a less regimented way. If I really need to keep track of time, I ask the players how long they are going to investigate a given area before moving on to a new area. If they are rushing through, then I will give them less information or make DC's to find things harder. Otherwise, I jut go with my gut on how long I feel their progress should take and only wory about it if the players ask how long they have been at a task.
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"The mongoose blew out its candle and was asleep in bed before the room went dark." —Llanowar fable
Unless there's something that is specifically time-based that they need to do (like reach the lich before he kills someone in 2 hrs or whatever), then I don't track time at all. I could guestimate depending on what they're doing and whether they have combat or rest, but honestly it's not very important.
In my opinion having time-based exploration rules gameifies 5e too much. The appeal of the game is that you can do whatever you want - the players were correct when they said it was artificial and stifling, because it is. It could be fun in the right context, but I don't think this version of DND is it.
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I know what you're thinking: "In that flurry of blows, did he use all his ki points, or save one?" Well, are ya feeling lucky, punk?
AngryGMs Tension Pool is a pretty elegant mechanic for tracking time and building tension outside of combat. The article is a little wordy and very... expressive, but it's a solid design. https://theangrygm.com/definitive-tension-pool/
You are doing it precisely right. This is how you control the exploration phase. Everyone has their fair turn, then the dungeon has its turn where monsters move along their patrol routes, or otherwise go about whatever business they have. When contact with monsters or hazards is made, the transition to combat is seamless, without having to “roll for initiative” 20 times before the dungeon ends.
Explain this to your players, and if they don’t like it then wish them luck finding another DM.
There is nothing wrong with what you are doing, the problem is with how you are doing it. You have revealed the Wizard of Oz behind the curtain. The BX adventuring rules are absolutely amazing, It is one of the best architectures for managing time spent doing things as it is easy to track/manage and produces a great sense of urgency and time which allows you to place importance on resources like light which are one of the legs on the stool of dungeon adventuring. These rules are however a background activity, in the same way you don't reveal how many hit points a monster has or what the map of the dungeon looks like before its been explored, the adventuring rules are a DM administration that is really none of the player's business. They shouldn't be aware that you are even using those rules.
DMing is all about creating illusions, essentially lying to the players to make the players believe in said illusions.
They do what they want to do and you do the tracking. The reason it feels "stiff" to them is that you are breaking the illusion by telling them about it and being explicit about its execution.
So just lie. Tell them you are no longer using it and just do it anyway without them knowing and believe me they will have no idea, they will just think you are absolutely brilliant at keeping track of things organically.
You are doing it precisely right. This is how you control the exploration phase. Everyone has their fair turn, then the dungeon has its turn where monsters move along their patrol routes, or otherwise go about whatever business they have. When contact with monsters or hazards is made, the transition to combat is seamless, without having to “roll for initiative” 20 times before the dungeon ends.
Explain this to your players, and if they don’t like it then wish them luck finding another DM.
I don't really agree with that last part. There is no reason to have a confrontation with the players about it and throw it down their throats. How the DM manages the game behind the screen is none of the players business, the only thing they should see is the result of what the DM does back there, not be involved in the process or have some sort of vote in it. The DM ... DM's, what methods you deploy to create a great game and the illusion is none of the players business at all.
I'm having a bit of a debate with some of my players. I'm running Lost Mines for 4 new players and one somewhat experienced player. I've been using exploration rules from B/X to run dungeons (10 minutes exploration rounds, 120 feet movement per round), since the 5e manuals don't really talk about it. One of the new players and the experienced players do not like exploration rounds, they called them stiff and artificial. How else am I supposed to keep track of time in a dungeon? How do you run your dungeons?
I deal with it in a less regimented way. If I really need to keep track of time, I ask the players how long they are going to investigate a given area before moving on to a new area. If they are rushing through, then I will give them less information or make DC's to find things harder. Otherwise, I jut go with my gut on how long I feel their progress should take and only wory about it if the players ask how long they have been at a task.
Unless there's something that is specifically time-based that they need to do (like reach the lich before he kills someone in 2 hrs or whatever), then I don't track time at all. I could guestimate depending on what they're doing and whether they have combat or rest, but honestly it's not very important.
In my opinion having time-based exploration rules gameifies 5e too much. The appeal of the game is that you can do whatever you want - the players were correct when they said it was artificial and stifling, because it is. It could be fun in the right context, but I don't think this version of DND is it.
I know what you're thinking: "In that flurry of blows, did he use all his ki points, or save one?" Well, are ya feeling lucky, punk?
AngryGMs Tension Pool is a pretty elegant mechanic for tracking time and building tension outside of combat. The article is a little wordy and very... expressive, but it's a solid design. https://theangrygm.com/definitive-tension-pool/
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
You are doing it precisely right. This is how you control the exploration phase. Everyone has their fair turn, then the dungeon has its turn where monsters move along their patrol routes, or otherwise go about whatever business they have. When contact with monsters or hazards is made, the transition to combat is seamless, without having to “roll for initiative” 20 times before the dungeon ends.
Explain this to your players, and if they don’t like it then wish them luck finding another DM.
There is nothing wrong with what you are doing, the problem is with how you are doing it. You have revealed the Wizard of Oz behind the curtain. The BX adventuring rules are absolutely amazing, It is one of the best architectures for managing time spent doing things as it is easy to track/manage and produces a great sense of urgency and time which allows you to place importance on resources like light which are one of the legs on the stool of dungeon adventuring. These rules are however a background activity, in the same way you don't reveal how many hit points a monster has or what the map of the dungeon looks like before its been explored, the adventuring rules are a DM administration that is really none of the player's business. They shouldn't be aware that you are even using those rules.
DMing is all about creating illusions, essentially lying to the players to make the players believe in said illusions.
They do what they want to do and you do the tracking. The reason it feels "stiff" to them is that you are breaking the illusion by telling them about it and being explicit about its execution.
So just lie. Tell them you are no longer using it and just do it anyway without them knowing and believe me they will have no idea, they will just think you are absolutely brilliant at keeping track of things organically.
I don't really agree with that last part. There is no reason to have a confrontation with the players about it and throw it down their throats. How the DM manages the game behind the screen is none of the players business, the only thing they should see is the result of what the DM does back there, not be involved in the process or have some sort of vote in it. The DM ... DM's, what methods you deploy to create a great game and the illusion is none of the players business at all.
Thank you, I think that's what I will do.